- I cleaned up the merging of the various senses, but this word is confused enough in popular usage that I think the multiple senses should be explicitly listed. Nicoleta
- I'm going to put back up the multiple senses until we can get more discussion. Proposed merged definition: "Pertaining to someone whose gender identity or expression is not aligned with their biological sex; sometimes used as a general, inclusive term, and sometimes as synonymous with or opposed to more specific terms such as transsexual, crossdresser, etc." Nicoleta
- You may put them up, but all Wiktionary definitions are supposed to be attestable. If something isn't challenged, there may not be any attestation shown: it is time consuming to attest a definition. Rarely, colloquial terms may be deemed "in widespread use" by acclamation. Otherwise, a challenged sense needs attestation. We are not inherently interested in making distinctions that are not attestable. Wordy definitions are extremely hard to attest. I strongly recommend making sure that you start with one or two senses and find quotations that show them in use. It is amazing what one can learn by attesting. DCDuring TALK 20:27, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Translations are under the adjectival definition, but seem to be nominal? Can we split these up under adjectives vs. nouns? The Ido translation I put in is adjectival; the noun is transgenro. Nicoleta
- English doesn't always make that distinction. Quite often, English adjectives are used as if they were nouns, so we tend not to create separate sections as a noun for these unless there is a demonstrated pattern of use as a noun. For example, "the poor", "send me your poor", etc., are common usage so poor will also get a Noun section. We otherwise do not do this, since practically any English descriptive adjective can be used as if it were a noun. Also, please note that new talk sections are generally added at the bottom of the talk page, rather than the top. People may not spot your comments if you create new sections at the top instead. --EncycloPetey 03:36, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Is "euphemism" the proper term to describe using "transgender" in lieue of "transsexual"? Transsexualism in and of itself isn't something that necesarily should be or needs to be euphemized, it's society's cultural stigma on the "-sexual" suffix that makes the word sometimes avoided (as well as its association with the psycho-medical community), same as the usage of "gay/lesbian" as opposed to "homosexual." Is there a better word to use besides "euphemism" to describe this sense? "Euphemism" I feel puts too negative a context on "transsexual." Nicoleta
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My name is René. I am a person of transsexual experience. I am a transsexual female & I strongly feel that I need to correct your definition regarding the word "transgender" (noun).
I believe that a transgender — which is derived from the word "gender" meaning sex — or a transsexual is a person born with the physical characteristics of one sex who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex. I cannot be so concerned about whether I should be in a man's or a woman's clothing. I, however, have always yearned to be a female. Thus, subjecting myself to hormone replacement therapy, and hopefully undergo surgical reassignment surgery in the offing. In fact, transsexuality is so often referred to as "gender dysphoria". Otherwise, known as a state of unease or general dissatisfaction of a person's own birth gender.
While I believe that a transvestite — which is derived from the word "vest" meaning article of clothing — or a cross-dresser is a person, typically a man, who derives pleasure from dressing in clothes considered appropriate to the opposite sex. A man can dress in a woman's clothing while he remains completely comfortable & satisfied in his biological gender (i.e. drag queen).
And an intersex or hermaphrodite is a totally different classification as it is a person or animal having both male and female sex organs or other sexual characteristics. This is concerned with the anatomical or sexual anomaly of a person's biology, particularly the reproductive organs.
I don't have to lose faith in the credibility of your definitions. Pardon my directness, but I'm easily upset when something on the Internet is incorrect. So I certainly hope you do something about it now. Thank you.
- A dictionary (like Wiktionary) is not written to provide "truth". A dictionary describes the way that words are used. So, if "Earth" was used regularly to mean "a flat surface of which everyone lives", then that is what we'd write, even if it doesn't match the "truth" about the shape of the Earth. So, our definiton of transgender isn't written to educate people about the "truth", but to describe what most people mean when they use that word. --EncycloPetey 01:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes – but we need citations here to back up the definitions. Ƿidsiþ 06:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree that there aren't five definitions, but maybe there are two. Can transgender refer to someone who has had a sex change operation, but also to someone who hasn't? That might count as two definitions. Mglovesfun (talk) 06:28, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The term was coined in an attempt to describe both of those things and more -- basically anyone with a "non-cisgendered" identity. But various groups have sought to restrict the meaning in various specific ways, and I don't think it's helpful or even possible to unpick them all. Ƿidsiþ 06:35, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- As with many words like this, it is very difficult to find true adjective citations that could not be read as attributive use of a noun. There are not very many citations for this word following "become" or "seem", used comparatively or superlatively, or graded (as modified by "too" or "very". Examples showing use as a predicate after a form of "be" requires a great deal of care and are likely to be debatable. It is difficult to establish for sure that this is a true adjective at all, rather than attributive use of a noun, however awkward the wording of the noun senses might be.
- Perhaps we should also see what citations can be found that unambiguously exhibit true nominal use: use following determiners and/or articles without a following noun, plurals, etc. Starting with the grammar will keep us in dictionary rather than encyclopedic territory. DCDuring TALK 11:27, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
- The 1992 quote and the 2010 Guardian cite both seem unambiguously adjectival to me. Ƿidsiþ 15:36, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
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Adjective. The usual wordy encyclopedic definitions that seem to heavily overlap the noun definitions. We need cites to show that this is an adjective for each of the five senses claimed to be adjectives. It is likely that at least some senses are only attributive use of the noun. Also, the senses are wordy/encyclopedic and therefore it is almost impossible to confirm that all aspects of given definition are invoked in a given quotation. DCDuring TALK 09:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Isn't a word that's used attributively to modify a noun, an adjective by definition? Or am I missing something here? —CodeCat 14:57, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- I merged all the defs: DC is right, that kind of desire to pick out shades of desired meaning cannot be supported by citations. Ƿidsiþ 06:26, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I consider this well and truly verified. Ƿidsiþ 14:41, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
This entry, along with transgendered and transgendering, suggest that transgender has a verb form. I know that queer terminology is rapidly evolving, and there are multiple speech communities (for instance, very young trans folks often disagree with very old trans folks on a lot of issues, because we're still in the process of figuring out how we view ourselves). But among everyone that I talk to, the verb form of these is never used, it sounds very strange and is considered incorrect.
I think the reason it sounds odd is that most trans people view themselves as being trans since birth. You can talk about the process of a trans person coming out (transition), but that's only an outward expression of an inward desire. It's really odd to say "Jill came out to her friends and transgendered at age 18". Instead you would say "Jill transitioned at age 18".
Wiktionary doesn't have a page for gayed, and the gays page doesn't mention a verb form. That's because most people view someone as being gay since birth. --Hirsutism (talk) 14:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- The verb transgender isn't very common, but it is attested, i.e., it has been used in books, as can been seen from like this by people with transphobic understandings of gender, and literal uses like this one which isn't about trans people at all but is instead talking about transgendering a Cabinet by firing the men in it and hiring women. As a descriptivist dictionary, Wiktionary describes words people have actually used, even if the philosophy behind the words doesn't correspond with reality (compare berdache, feminazi), but we do try to tag the words if they're rare, or pejorative, or what have you. For now I've just tagged it as "uncommon". Some of the uses are clearly not pejorative (e.g. the one about the Cabinet), but others (e.g. Jeffreys') could be read as pejorative; do you think the verb should be tagged as "sometimes pejorative" or "sometimes offensive"? I'm not sure... - -sche (discuss) 03:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC) . Uses seem to fall into three categories: uses by potentially well-meaning people with outdated (or now-outdated but perhaps then-current) understandings of gender, uses
- It seems to me that the references are only discussing transgendered (as in "he's a transgendered person" or "they're transgendereds"), and not transgender (verb) per se (as in "the transgendering of the mystical voice").
- I'm surprised to see that Wiktionary's entry on transgendered did not yet note how restricted its use is; I have overhauled it and added those links to the references.
- transgender#Verb itself could perhaps use a "chiefly academic" label, but otherwise seems fine. It doesn't seem to be proscribed. - -sche (discuss) 01:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Does anyone have any evidence for transgender being used as a comparative adjective? It seems absurd to me. Arguments about who gets to consider themselves transgender notwithstanding, you're either trans or not, no one's "more transgender" than another trans person and I'm quite certain there's no "most transgender" person, even theoretically. Unless someone brings up some evidence to the contrary, I'm going to change that to uncomparable. J0lt C0la (talk) 16:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for catching that. The template Wiktionary uses for adjectives adds comparative and superlative forms automatically, and they have to be suppressed in cases where they are not used. Someone may also have noticed that one of the citations (the 1992 one) below sense 2 actually uses the word gradably; that seems to be the only instance where the word is used gradably, however. I've changed it to incomparable/ungradable. - -sche (discuss) 17:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)