AncientEgypt23

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Again, welcome! —Aearthrise ^{(Ⲁⲉⲁⲣⲑⲣⲓⲥⲉ)} 14:42, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Egyptian romanisation

There is no need to give any romanisation for quotations beyond the standard one used in entry titles. I have therefore reverted the edits where you have added it. @Vorziblix can explain further if needed. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:40, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: Yeah I felt like I was overdoing it a bit. Alright, thanks for letting me know. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 00:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, scholarly publications for the most part stick to the consonant-only transcription for rendering Egyptian texts. The other sort of romanization, based on the modern Egyptological pronunciation, is usually just used for rendering Egyptian words and phrases in English running text, although some works for a popular audience use it more extensively. In works about linguistic matters its use tends to be more misleading than useful, so it’s probably best to avoid it here. Thanks for your added entries in any case! — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 01:52, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Some more source requests

In the interests of saving time, could you give some links for the sources of the glyphs for jswwr, ywrdwnꜣ, bꜣbꜣrw, and hndwꜣy? I’d really rather not wade through mountains of literature to find where the exact writings given are attested, so it’d be very helpful. Thanks! — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 01:31, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Yeah, no problem. AncientEgypt23 (talk)

@Vorziblix: Done. I found an archive.org copy of the source (both volumes) and because it's very late on my end I'll post the links to the pages themselves tomorrow - since I feel like, given all you've done, asking you to pile through a thousand some-odd pages of glyphs just to find a page you can copy the URL to is too much to ask of you at this point. Thanks again, I really appreciate it! AncientEgypt23 (talk)

Thanks. Budge is really not a reliable source; his ideas about the Egyptian language were already outdated in his own lifetime (he failed to appreciate the advances of the Berlin school of Egyptology and was one of the last holdouts of a lot of discredited 19th-century theories), and they’re even more horribly outdated now. Many of the words in his dictionary are ‘ghost words’ and simple misinterpretations; others are real words but with inaccurate definitions. There’s a reason I specifically suggested avoiding his works in that first post I made to you.

That said, many of the sources he references are still usable if they reproduce the original texts. But those texts need to be reinterpreted in the light of modern Egyptology; Budge’s interpretation can’t be relied on. In short, Budge can be useful for finding possible attestations of a word, but should never be trusted without verifying against the original texts or more modern works.

In any case, thanks; I’ll follow up on Budge’s references and see whether anything needs changing. No need to post the links tomorrow; I’ll try to add references to the source texts instead. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 04:44, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Oh shoot! I didn't realize that was the same guy you mentioned in that message! I'm really sorry! I should've been more careful. Tell you what, for wasting time, I'll refrain from more posts until I'm super, super sure about their authenticity and variability + the guidelines for proper format and the like. Sorry again! AncientEgypt23 (talk) 13:07, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Look, I’ve tried my best to be charitable to you in the hopes that, despite past indiscretions, you’d be willing to work with me, learn some Egyptian, and help build an accurate dictionary. But after saying you’d try to be more careful about authenticity and formatting, your new entries have only gotten immensely more inaccurate (and still poorly formatted). Months after you’ve been told about determinatives and shown how phonetic complements get transliterated, you still haven’t bothered to learn the basics of how they work, and all these months later, you still consistenly refuse to use the headword templates that correctly categorize Egyptian words. After being explicitly told not to rely on Budge three separate times, you’ve gone and copied an entry from his dictionary verbatim. And some of the material you add continues to be just made up from whole cloth. (Attested in Old Egyptian? Really?) How is this supposed to be interpreted as anything other than a deliberate refusal to learn and collaborate? I have done all I could to show goodwill to you and help show you the ropes rather than just attacking you, but this won’t work unless you yourself put in some effort to learn. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 21:25, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Alright, you've been more than patient with me and I'm sorry I've been less-than-understanding. I'll tell you what, no empty promises this time. I'll stop what I'm doing and make sure, double sure, and triple sure that I know where I'm getting my info from and what I'm doing before I actually do it. I promise this. Hell, I'll use you to verify if you'd like.

On a side note, you linked a user page and an edit before that I don't recognize. Are you trying to say that was me? I don't understand? AncientEgypt23 (talk) 22:10, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Do you really think anyone is that absurdly naïve? But I won’t press the point. If you do decent work, it doesn’t matter to me. Just put some bloody effort into it. Thanks. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 22:19, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Um...okay? In any event, I'll do my best. AncientEgypt23 (talk)

A number of things to note

• You are directly copying from pharaoh.se and not checking your actual sources. That’s a pretty reliable website, so it’s not as bad as it could be (accuracy-wise it’s generally fine), but unfortunately the way you copy/paste their source lists verbatim, in the same order and with the same format, likely constitutes copyright infringement. (The hieroglyphic writings themselves can’t be copyrighted, thankfully, and the definitions of individual pharaohs are also too simple to be copyrightable. Unfortunately, though, the same can’t be said of lists of sources; check w:Wikipedia:Copyright_in_lists#Selection for details on that.) At the very least try to format your references the same way as other Wiktionary references.
• Don’t copy from Wikipedia either, as you did at tjw. (That glyph form isn’t found in the source you supposedly used.) This is much worse in terms of potential for inaccuracy.
• If you want solid Egytological sources to use for the names of pharaohs, von Beckerath’s Handbuch der ägyptischen Königsnamen and Leprohon’s The Great Name: Ancient Egyptian Royal Titulary (available on Libgen) are both very good.
• The catfish glyph is K13, not K12. K12 is a different catfish viewed from the side.
• Djer and Djet are not Predynastic pharaohs. They are from the First Dynasty.
• For the names of pharaohs, please use the template {{fivefold titulary}}, since Horus/serekh names and other names used by pharaohs aren’t necessarily given names. (Only the nomen/birth name/‘Son of Ra name’ is a given name and can be treated as such.) You can check these other pages that use the template for examples of how it’s used if you need help.
• The ‘Alternative hieroglyphic writings’ template is for listing alternative writings representing the same spoken word. For forms that don’t represent the same spoken word, you should make a separate entry, so, for instance, nꜥr-mr-ṯꜣ should have a separate entry from nꜥr-mr. Even though they are both names of a single person, they are not the same word. (By contrast, the nꜥr form that’s listed at nꜥr-mr is assumed to be an abbreviated writing of the same word.)
• Also on the subject of nꜥr-mr-ṯꜣ, by convention we hyphenate the components of personal names, and we use all lowercase letters in transliteration (you had it entered with a space and a capital Ꜣ).
• Only use the four dashes ---- to separate sections of different languages, not different sections within the same language.

That’s all for now! — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:49, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Understood. ALso, don't understand that template you posted at all. Mind posting an example of it in use? AncientEgypt23 (talk) 17:54, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Here’s examples showing all five of the different names used by pharaohs:

• Horus/Set/serekh name: kꜣ-nḫt-ḫꜥ-m-wꜣst
  • {{fivefold titulary|serekh|Tuthmosis III|Eighteenth}} becomes: A serekh name notably borne by Tuthmosis III, a pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty
• Nebty/Two Ladies name: wꜣḥ-nsyt-mj-rꜥ-m-pt
  • {{fivefold titulary|Two Ladies|Tuthmosis III|Eighteenth}} becomes: A Two Ladies name notably borne by Tuthmosis III, a pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty
• Golden Horus/golden falcon/gold name: sḫm-pḥtj-ḏsr-ḫꜥw
  • {{fivefold titulary|gold|Tuthmosis III|Eighteenth}} becomes: A gold name notably borne by Tuthmosis III, a pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty
• throne name/Nesut-biti name/praenomen: mn-ḫpr-rꜥ
  • {{fivefold titulary|throne|Tuthmosis III|Eighteenth}} becomes: A throne name notably borne by Tuthmosis III, a pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty
• birth name/Son of Ra name/given name/nomen: ḏḥwtj-ms
  • {{fivefold titulary|given|Tuthmosis III|Eighteenth}} becomes: A given name of historical usage, notably borne by Tuthmosis III, a pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty

So the type of name comes first, then the pharaoh’s English name (along with any other text you might want to add), then optionally the dynasty number. (If there’s multiple pharaohs with the same name, you don’t need to bother with the dynasty number.) — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Regarding von Beckerath’s Handbuch der ägyptischen Königsnamen, if you want to skip straight to the glyphs, the first dynasty starts on page 171; the labels next to the glyphs mean: H = serekh name; N = Two Ladies name; G = gold name; E = throne name; P = given name. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:39, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

A few more minor things:

• Stop using {{etyl}}; you’ve already been told that it’s deprecated. Use {{der}} instead.
• When you add gender to {{egy-proper noun}}, the proper way to do it is:
  • {{egy-proper noun|m|head=(whatever)}} for masculine proper nouns (including male names),
  • {{egy-proper noun|f|head=(whatever)}} for feminine proper nouns (including female names and most place names),
  • {{egy-proper noun|head=(whatever)}} if you don’t know.

That’s it for now. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:32, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Actually, some more:

• Stop copying lists of sources verbatim from pharaoh.se. Last time I’m going to say this.
• You’re still adding four dashes where they’re not supposed to go. This was also explained to you a single day ago.
• When using {{egy-hieroforms}}, keep the ‘read=’ parameters on the same line as the hieroglyphs they go with, like this:
  {{egy-hieroforms
|<hiero>D45-z:r</hiero>|read1=ḏsr}}
  This is not ideal, but unfortunately it’s necessary for technical reasons.
• Don’t add Akkadian anywhere, please. The last time you did that at mr I checked it against the Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago and it was entirely wrong.
• Editing your past conversations (including even what I wrote) to be deceptive does not help you at all. I would advise against it. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:00, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Ah. I realized I misread the four-dash thing. I see now. Gotcha. Also, as for the edits, pls refrain from bringing that up. I appreciate the input, I honestly do, but you should understand that people can't see that I'm (y.k.w.) Push comes to shove I could at least feign ignorance AncientEgypt23 (talk) 17:04, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Also, reconsider the Akkadian thing. The translations @ Damascus were directly transcribed from the publications of https://oi.uchicago.edu/, http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/amarna.html,a and https://archive.org/details/dieelamarnatafel02knud. Imerisu was retrieved from sources here Trust me, IK what I'm doing. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 17:06, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

No, we can see who you are. Personally, I am only letting this go on out of deference to Vorziblix, who is excessively kind-hearted. But when you continue to make the exact same basic mistakes that Vorziblix already warned you about and say things like "Trust me, IK what I'm doing" when you obviously don't, it suggests to me that you are too arrogant to learn, and that you will never be a good Wiktionary editor. At that point, we'll just go back to blocking and reverting on sight. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:27, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

(EC) Everyone already knows who you are. You make it pretty obvious, and the people here aren’t idiots. As long as you stick with editing Egyptian, they know I’ll be able to fix up what you make, so you should be all right (as the result is still improving the dictionary). However, as soon as you stray out of Egyptian, I can no longer check your work thoroughly, so you’re at a high risk of running afoul if you add things that are wrong or can’t be verified. This is another reason I would strongly recommend avoiding Akkadian and the like. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:36, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Also, what are the page and line numbers for those writings of Damascus? — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:41, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: p. 1396, EA 194-198 AncientEgypt23 (talk) 19:10, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

All right, thanks. That attests one of the writings, plus imerišu, which refers to a kingdom, not a city, and so doesn’t go in that translations section at all. (The first link you gave contained nothing related.) I will update the entry accordingly. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:24, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Welp I’m a moron and don’t think of providing line# (like was friggin asked, Jesus…) so in any event, other spellings are found EA 194:21, that’s the one for dimasqì, I’m looking for the other ones now. Just letting you know. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 19:27, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

197:21 attests di-maš-qa. 194:21 doesn’t attest anything. No other instances of di-maš-... occur in this document or any of the other Amarna letters 60–381. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:32, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Whoops! Sorry about that! I found a citation for the other spellings here, which cite the Amarna letters, I’m looking for the actual source rn. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 19:34, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

A handful more:

• We use the terminology serekh name rather than Horus name because it also needs to encompass Set names, names with both Horus and Set, and names in a serekh with no attached god.
• You don’t need to add lang=egy when you’re using {{fivefold titulary}}; that template is only ever used with Egyptian names to begin with!

Otherwise you’re doing pretty well with the new pharaoh entries today; thanks. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:31, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Thanks man. Was actually about to ask if you think it's OK to go ahead w/ Dynasty II (Sources will be formatted appropriately this time) AncientEgypt23 (talk)

I need to do a bit more work on those still. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:40, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Fine by me. Let me know if there's anything I can help you with. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 16:41, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

All right, I’ve finished. Starting with the Second Dynasty, pharaohs have more than one name, so be extremely careful in making sure you are correctly labelling each name as a serekh name, Two Ladies name, gold name, throne name, or birth name, as well as in keeping separate words on separate pages (for example, bꜣ-nṯr should be a different entry from n-nṯr, and neither should be in the other’s alternative forms). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:09, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Reread both bullet points under ‘A handful more’, and go fix your errors, please. You’re doing exactly the two things you were just told to stop doing yesterday. So take some responsibility and fix them. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:02, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Also, you entered wrong etymologies at nfr-kꜣ-rꜥ and nfr-kꜣ-zkr, even after I fixed them for you. Correct them, and stop making nonsense up. Egyptian syntax does not work that way. Adjectives cannot come before the nouns they modify. At this point, I must admit my forbearance has worn thin, as you are still deliberately inserting wrong information even after the right answer has been given to you on a silver platter. I am about done trying to help you when you show no goodwill or effort to learn in return. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:20, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorzibilix: Are you sure? I just mass copy/pasted from the page, I don't think I changed anything. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 18:00, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I and every other editor can see the page and its history; you’re not fooling anyone. You still need to fix the other errors you made today (using ‘horus name’ instead of ‘serekh name’, adding ‘lang=egy’ to {{fivefold titulary}}), too. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:14, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I'm not trying to fool anyone. You know, I'm not a lying cunt 24/7, I'm a human too. Anyway, I just finished correcting everything. Go ahead and look. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

I know, of course you don’t lie all the time, but the things you say and add are so often deceptive or wrong that you can’t be surprised when people don’t believe you when you really are telling the truth. If this was an honest mistake, I apologize (though I must admit I’m not convinced). In any case, thanks for the corrections. By the way, you also completely ignored the other thing I said yesterday, too (“be extremely careful… in keeping separate words on separate pages (for example, bꜣ-nṯr should be a different entry from n-nṯr, and neither should be in the other’s alternative forms)”). Look over this page, note the litany of times you have been corrected and then gone on to ignore the correction and do things wrong anyway, and ask yourself how any reasonable person could still believe you were acting in good faith. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:01, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Hebrew

If you're not going to follow our Hebrew transliteration policy, then don't edit Hebrew. —*i̯óh₁n̥C^[5] 19:58, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Oh shoot! I didn't know the policy was any different! I'm sorry! I'll fix that immediately. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 20:00, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Alright you've undone my edits again so I think I'm misunderstanding. You're aware that in Biblical Hebrew ע was at times pronounced like gh, correct? That's why the Seputagint renders a gamma for "Gaza" and "Gomorrah" even though they both start with ayin? There's more info here: Ghayn AncientEgypt23 (talk) 20:10, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Even if it was pronounced that way, we don't transliterate it that way. ע is ʿ in scholarly transliteration or '/` in modern transliteration. Stop editing Hebrew unless you're going to follow the rules. —*i̯óh₁n̥C^[5] 20:15, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: I'm aware of the transliteration, but doesn't the system our accepted rules for transliteration of Hebrew are based off of only apply to Modern Hebrew? If you want to keep the ' for ayin, just change the "hbo" in the etyl sections to "he", so instead of "Biblical Hebrew" it displays "Hebrew". It's not incorrect by any means. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 20:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

So the issue is twofold is that you're trying to provide is a transcription (what the sounds might have sounded like) rather than a transliteration (what is written). That is not how this policy works. We are working on a protocol by which you can add transcriptions as well, but at the moment, the ʿayin is only has one scholarly transliteration. Furthermore, the even if we did allow transcriptions like that, this is a reconstruction of a sound that is not attested within the language based on crosslinguistic evidence (which I believe), but this is why we transliterate and not transcribe things. I'd also reach out to @Wikitiki89 for comment. —*i̯óh₁n̥C^[5] 20:46, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@JohnC5: Alright, that's fair enough. I'll refrain. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Not much I can add here. We simply don't try to reconstruct the difference between the two ʿayins and the two ḥets in our transliterations. However, you can always add an explanation in the etymology section if you deem it necessary. --WikiTiki89 21:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

More source requests

Please provide sources for all the English etymologies you​’re adding. I’d really rather not revert them all when I’m sure some are correct, but we need some way to verify their accuracy. Thanks. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 22:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Will do. Late on my end so probably 2moro. AncientEgypt23 (talk)

@Vorziblix: Since you're obviously more experienced w/ properly formatting sources, would you mind like, linking me to whatever policy page explains it? I've been looking for it for like 15 minutes and I can't find it. Not all my sources are technically books, some are manuscripts (specifically Lord Middleton's Wollaton Hall MSS) and I'm not sure how to format these correctly as citations. NVM I found it. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 16:54, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Done. AncientEgypt23 (talk)

Thanks. In the future, I would advise actually reading the sources you’re citing. This thing where you pretend to be using some source when you’re really just copying stuff from websites is extremely silly and falls apart as soon as someone looks into the supposed source. On other subjects, stop copying from Wikipedia (and other unreliable websites you happen across), stop using {{etyl}}, stop adding four hyphens between sections that aren’t separate language sections, and above all stop making things up. These things have all been told to you numerous times, and they are not hard to do. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 22:06, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Literally 2/3 of the things you just told me not to do are things I already don't do - things I stopped doing a while ago, per your requests. AncientEgypt23 (talk) 23:12, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Here and here is material taken from Wikipedia, where you didn’t read your actual source. In the second one of those (along with many of the other etymologies you added) you also use {{etyl}}. Here you add four hyphens where they don’t belong. Here you invent a phonologically impossible Old Egyptian pronunciation, and here you make up an explanation (‘pointed shape’) for the cape being named ‘Cape Horn’ (it’s actually named after a Dutch town, Hoorn). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 23:19, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Oh. For the four hyphens, I misinterpreted the 'different language'. I added them because one 'Bole' was from Chinese, one from Sub-African languages, and the other from English. Didn't click that regardless they were all English. And also, if you knew the thing about Cape Horn, instead of blanking the edit, why don't you, oh I don't know, correct the information? You clearly read it from something that was either a reputable source or cited a reputable source, so why not fix it instead of just blanking my edit and leaving? I'm not trying to say it's your responsibility to fix my mistakes, but if you could amend inaccuracies on Cannes and still put an rfe, why not here? Why not everywhere? (Everywhere you can, obviously) AncientEgypt23 (talk) 23:23, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

You are right; that would be ideal, and if I had infinite time, I would do all the necessary research and then enter the correct etymology. That is what I do try to do most times; for most of your etymologies, I did my best to fix them rather than just delete them. Unfortunately, doing things the right way takes a good deal of effort and time (more for some words than others), and sometimes I just don’t have it in me to wade through the entire academic literature. (In the case of Cape Horn, for instance, I don’t know whether it was calqued directly from Dutch, or from Dutch by way of Spanish, etc., and finding out would be difficult. Truth be told, at some point, I just get exhausted with fixing errors that are, as you say, not really my responsibility.) In those cases, at least having no information is better than having wrong information. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 23:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: Absolutely. Alright, I was just curious. I wasn't trying to sound accusatory or anything like that. AncientEgypt23 (talk)

welp

@Vorziblix: Can’t say I didn’t try. Sorry I ended up just being more trouble than I was worth…again. I’d say ‘maybe next time’ but honestly, you’ve given me way more chances than I deserve already. Thanks for being a friend man, sorry if I was a disappointment. AncientEgypt23 (talk)

It’s all right; there’s no ill feelings. Building a dictionary just might not be the right project for you, but I’m sure you’ll find something else worthwhile or interesting to fill your time. Best wishes out there! — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 10:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Vorziblix: To you too mate! Shalom! AncientEgypt23 (talk)