User talk:Jberkel/2021

The following discussion has been moved from the page User talk:Jberkel.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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This page shows conversations on my talkpage from 2021.

Ard suffix

I believe the roll back to the discussion on the suffix -ard is incorrect. -Ard does not have an inherent connotation of negativity. See Wizard, Spaniard, Picard, Montagnards etc Alexidb (talk) 13:33, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Spaniard, Montagnard, Picard are all borrowings from French, so the examples you added should go to French section of -ard. Most examples in English using -ard seem to be pejorative, wizard being an exception. Perhaps the definition could be slightly reworded, but it remains a mostly pejorative suffix. – Jberkel 14:00, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

The suffix in the case of the demonym is not "-ard". It is "-iard", cognote with "-yard" in "Savoyard". Adambrower (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

dicionário de calão e expressões idiomáticas

Veio por este meio enviar este dicionário de calão e de expressões idiomáticas para criar as paginas para este dicionário Envio o link do dicionárioː https://natura.di.uminho.pt/~jj/pln/calao/dicionario.pdf --2001:8A0:F258:D301:9CDF:C1C3:7D1F:3D08 14:13, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Maillard terms

Why do you persist in removing this request when three of the four terms requested in it have neither yet been created, nor declined as unsuitable? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pigsonthewing: Maillard browning, Maillard reaction exist so I removed them from the list. The other terms are still listed. Where's the problem? – Jberkel 19:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

You amnended a comment signed by me so that it no longer says what I wrote. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to have stepped on your comment, but created entries are routinely removed from these pages to keep them manageable. In Special:Diff/61559068/61559325, you re-requested an entry which was already created at that point. – Jberkel 21:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

webcam

I don't see how your newly added sense is different. When you take part in a video call, you are transmitting real-time camera pictures over the net. Equinox ◑ 11:57, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

A webcam in the older sense is something you just look at (trojan coffee pot etc), and don't use for bidirectional video calls. But yes, maybe it could be merged into one sense. – Jberkel 12:15, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

xurro

About xurro as 'mess', I think it is more accurate as botch or bodge, a bad job, not sure if also 'mess'. This is catanyol, you won't find it in Catalan dictionaries, but in Spanish ca:churro. In that sense I would have said bunyol, another deformed pastry :-) --Vriullop (talk) 07:23, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

@Vriullop: Thanks! Some of my companys seem to speak catanyol, I also noticed candau which is marked as castellanisme on ca:candau. Perhaps we need a similar label here. – Jberkel 08:01, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Sure, there is a lot of colloquial catanyol that has recently entered the language, and that is not normally found in literature or among speakers of traditionally Catalan-speaking families. --Vriullop (talk) 08:16, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

defer

What do you think it means? You can defer to a person, you overvalue them 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

that being said, how is the definition quote unquote "law"? 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

and the definition for "simp" just says the word "defer" 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:21, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

"(slang) A man who foolishly overvalues and defers to a woman, putting her on a pedestal.

(slang, by extension) Someone who foolishly overvalues someone else and defers to them, putting them on a pedestal." - definition for simp 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

This is already covered by the first definition. – Jberkel 19:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

this time, i didn't even undo your edit. explain how it's "law" 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

you can always defer to a person in an informal scenario, as in a scenario that's not part of law 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:46, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive edits. There's no need to freak out. – Jberkel 19:53, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

yes/yep 2600:1700:BAD0:23C0:8193:662F:7997:C828 19:58, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

My image edits

Hello Jberkel,

I believed I was doing relevant images to illustrate the words. Contrary to what you suggest, I wasn't just taking image caption and adding it to all words. I used two different captions, and only added it to the most relevant words.

• 
  Equestrian tourism is a fast growing sector of active recreation.
• 
  Equestrian tourism is a fast growing sector of active recreation.
• 
  Equestrian tourism is a fast growing sector of active recreation.
• 
  Horseback tour in Iceland was the adventure of a lifetime.
• 
  Horseback tour in Iceland was the adventure of a lifetime.
• 
  Horseback tour in Iceland was the adventure of a lifetime.

Above is the gallery of removed illustrations with captions (boldened word is the Wiktionary entry I used it for). The only one that may have been overkill was lifetime. Maaaybe active is not 100% perfect as well, but I made sure to put it to #5 definition, which was best. Do you believe that the images don't depict tourism, recreation, adventure and horseback?

I'm a beginner, so I'm going to ask for guidance at global discussion as well. Kind regards.

--Tupungato (talk) 12:36, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

☞ reply at User talk:Tupungato#Images – Jberkel 13:35, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

One-stop shop

You reverted translation to Spanish for one-stop shop: Spanish: {{t|es|ventanilla única}}.--BoldLuis (talk) 17:31, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

That was in December though, don't remember exactly, but it looks like it was my mistake. – Jberkel 17:49, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

pronunciation bot

If you do run the pron-bot again, bear in mind that some French audios are kinda misleading, often saying things like "l'avion" or "un choc" instead of just the lemma. I don't remember any other details about that issue. Yellow is the colour (talk) 13:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

I think the more recent recordings have better metadata, but there was the quality problem. Most of the good recordings come from the same small group of 5,6 editors anyway, so they could just be put on a whitelist. – Jberkel 13:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Full list of a user’s page creations

Hello, needed your help regarding this problem. Where do I get that for me? This shows only some of the pages I created, while the rest (like মা) do not appear. I saw that when I add a new language entry to an existing page, this happens. Is something amiss? Thank you! -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 14:10, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

@Inqilābī: Adding a new L2 header does not count as adding a new page in MediaWiki's view (it's a single page). In order to get these stats we would have to write our own tools which know about the way Wiktionary entries are structured. – Jberkel 21:46, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

I actually meant new entries… That’s a typo. on my part, sorry. Or even then is it the same? -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 07:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, but you gave মা as an example. The page was created by User:Msasag, to which you added an Assamese entry later. This addition is not captured by any user stat right now. The page creator gets "all the credit" (and MediaWiki notifications). WT:STATS tracks changes in L2 headers, but is not concerned with user stats. – Jberkel 12:49, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

bequiffed citation

Hi. Does it really say "miserabalist" and not "miserabilist"? If so, please add {{sic}} to indicate authorial error. Equinox ◑ 00:52, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Rollbacks

Just in case no one has ever mentioned this to you, rollbacks are supposed to be for reverting vandalism. Humorous example sentences for vulgar words are not vandalism. If you don't like Masterbutter's example sentences, you can replace them. To me it looks like vandalism when you revert content that is potentially useful to people who don't get excited about learning to ask for directions to hotels and restaurants and learn languages by learning words they might actually use. Cheers. — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 18:08, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

While restoring Masterbutter's goofy example sentences, I noticed that several of his edits included fixes to formatting and templates. Reverting him without looking at stuff like that is definitely more like vandalism than anything I can find among his edits. — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 18:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

To be clear it's not about the vulgar content, but most example sentences are either nonsense or completely generic and interchangeable ("I will masturbate all day", "I'm grumpy because I didn't masturbate", "You masturbate too much", "He drank a pint of butter"). These don't really illustrate anything (besides the editor's obsession with masturbation). Some have grammatical errors. And mixing trivial cosmetic changes with bogus edits is always a good strategy to argue for keeping your content. – Jberkel 18:54, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion generic and interchangeable examples are among the most important. They demonstrate some basic grammatical constructions and common phrases. If one can't say simple stuff in a language, there's no chance of them being able to build something useful on it. I can't comment on whether the grammatical errors are real errors or just unusual phrasings, but errors can at least be fixed. And I don't think the cosmetic errors are trivial; we templatize things for a wide variety of reasons. But my argument wasn't that template formatting should be linked directly to added usage examples, but that one should check for the former before blindly reverting the latter. Reformatting use examples to use the templates can be a really boring endeavor so I'm glad someone is doing it once in a while, you know? — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 23:23, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree, generic examples lack context, "I'm grumpy because I didn't X". "You Y too much". "On Saturday, I will Z all day". Where X=Y=Z inevitably “masturbate”, what else would you do all day! And how on earth does "He drank a pint of butter" illustrate "butter"? Do you think that's a good example? How about "My hard-on wants very^[sic] to be your friend"? Garbage dressed as humour and wrapped in templates is still garbage, and should be reverted. – Jberkel 01:24, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Actually, only vandalism should be reverted. For worthless edits we have the undo button.

Unless I'm mistaken, fondu means melted, so he drank a pint of melted butter. When you say illustrate it makes it sound like you want example sentences to essentially be definitions taken from our foreign language projects. "Butter is a dairy product etc" isn't what I would call a usage example. I personally would be more likely to remember a sentence about someone drinking a pint of melted butter than one about butter being a dairy product made by doing whatever it is that makes butter butter.

In that context, your repeated mention of context makes me curious. MB added his examples to entries related to masturbation. He didn't add "I'm grumpy because I didn't masturbate" to the entry for grumpy. They're in contextually appropriate entries. So I'm curious what context is missing from his examples that, if included, would elevate them from garbage to passable in your estimation? For example, would "I'm going to masturbate all day" be better if it was "I have the day off from work, so I'm going to masturbate all day?" It's not clear what exactly you mean by context. — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 00:32, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

WT:USEX has some guidelines, and suggests "to place the term in a context in which it is likely to appear". Usage example are not about inventing ridiculous sentences so that you can remember them better (as you suggest), they should show how the term is typically used, with common collocations and grammatical features (gender etc). As I said, you can do many things all day, and you can be grumpy for many reasons, so these are not good example sentences. In Special:Diff/54472274/62642771, you've added "il se masturbe depuis 2 heures". Same thing, no context. It's not even clear that masturbation is related to sex after reading these sentences. But maybe he's doing mental masturbation. Or some strange form of yoga. – Jberkel 01:54, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Rollback of edits to Italian schietto

What was the reason for the rollback of the Greek descendant of this term? Word dewd544 (talk) 16:46, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@Word dewd544: MediaWiki's useless mobile interface, where scrolling sometimes inadvertently triggers the rollback button. Sorry. – Jberkel 16:56, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh got it, no problem! Word dewd544 (talk) 14:01, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Recycle symbol

Hello. What does it mean when you put the recycle symbol (emoji: three green arrows in cycle) in your edit summary? I think I've seen it a few times. I saw it on an addition of 1 citation to an entry. What is being cycled or rotated here? Equinox ◑ 00:09, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

@Equinox: The citation is being recycled (used in more than one entry). This could even be a feature (find a word in all quotations). But we want FRESH citations, right? – Jberkel 00:49, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, I do that sometimes too, because older authors had larger vocabularies (or at least different ones), probably a bit above Stephenie Meyer level. Clearly the disk-saving solution here is to store each citation with an ID number and highlight the headword on demand, blah blah blah, (actually there will come a time, not for a few years, when we can hook up to WikiSource in this manner). Thanks for explaining. Equinox ◑ 01:41, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Actualités du Wiktionnaire, numéro 75, juin 2021

Le dernier numéro des Actualités du Wiktionnaire vient de paraître !

Dans ce numéro, retour sur les conférences ContribuLing et Arctic Knot, une discussion sur la neutralité dans le Wiktionnaire et la présentation d’un dictionnaire paru en temps de guerre. Des mots pour parler de bière et du monde qui vient, et les illustrations nous emmènent sur Mars !

Découvrez le numéro 75 de juin 2021 !

Brouillon du prochain numéro - Anciens numéros - Abonnement/désabonnement

Message déposé par Talabot (talk) 01:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Silberlinge

Thank you for cleaning up my article Silberlinge. I'm not sure of the correct way to add English translations, but I recommend:

1. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. Zechariah 11:12 (wikisource:Bible (King James)/Zechariah#Chapter 11).
2. And [Judas] said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. Matthew 26:15 (wikisource:Bible (King James)/Matthew#Chapter 26).
3. Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders. Matthew 27:3 (wikisource:Bible (King James)/Matthew#Chapter 27).

w:Luther's Bible, from which the quotations originate, dates from 1522; so the w:KJV (1611) is close in time and the earliest well-known English translation. Narky Blert (talk) 07:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia Links: Where Should They Go?

Hey- I saw your recent edit here, where you move Wikipedia to the bottom of the page. I usually do the opposite, moving links at the bottom into a box near the top. I want to kind of "get on board" and be consistent with the general policy on Wiktionary. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:42, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

They look messy on mobile, where they also waste space, so I tend to move them down. There's no clear consensus on this, hence the back-and-forth sometimes. – Jberkel 15:57, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Template:RQ:Mencken American Language

The way you have this set up, using |page= with anything other than Roman numerals will result in a perfectly normal display- but with the page in CAT:E. Eventually CAT:E will become so full it will be useless.

What we really need is a Lua function that detects what kind of number is given it and produces the desired output regardless of the numeral type. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:40, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: Argh. Ok, I've disabled it. Maybe the whole page calculation logic could be moved into a module. – Jberkel 21:45, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Basically, #iferror is useless, because of phab:T88797. – Jberkel 11:37, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

record (modern programming sense)

Oops, I didn't mean to thank you for that. I clicked the wrong link. I would like to point out a couple of things:

• There is a SEPARATE, traditional idea of "record" being a single item from a database, e.g. let's pull up the record for John Smith, from our customer db.
• The modern record (which I was trying to define) is a fairly new concept in programming languages (specifically C# and Java, certainly not Pascal) which fills a perceived gap not covered by class and struct. That is to say: a class is based around what it can do (methods), a struct is probably based around how it looks (you need to pack things to byte boundaries to talk to Win32 or God knows what), whereas the record is supposed to encapsulate a bunch of fields without necessarily having any (significant) methods.

I tried to draw that distinction and I think you've basically undone it. To move on: are you familiar with the second, recent thing I am talking about? Equinox ◑ 09:35, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

[1] and [2] Equinox ◑ 09:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

In any case "a data structure in certain programming languages" tells us literally nothing, because that could also define array, struct, class, hashtable, dictionary, DAWG, I mean, anything. Equinox ◑ 09:39, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@Equinox: I think traditionally record is just another name for a struct (unrelated to the database sense you mention), and doesn't specify anything regarding mutability. It's unfortunate that C# and Java have reused the terminology here. Maybe we need another sense? I wasn't familiar with the concept in Java, looks like it's a recent addition. Perhaps definable as "immutable struct"? – Jberkel 10:02, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

"A record class is a shallowly immutable, transparent carrier for a fixed set of values" (Java)

"...you use the record keyword to define a reference type that provides built-in functionality for encapsulating data […] While records can be mutable, they are primarily intended for supporting immutable data models." (C#)

It looks like even C# and Java have different notions of the thing and just happen to share the same name. – Jberkel 10:28, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Java stole it because C# had it :) It's absolutely not a struct, because C# already has structs, which are different from records. (Java doesn't have structs, as far as I know.) Compare enum. It's a specific type of data structure and that's why I added it. Equinox ◑ 11:18, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@Equinox: So in C# a record differs from a C# struct mainly in that it is a reference type ("like a class" in your definition) This obv doesn't apply to Pascal/Algol dinosaurs, they aren't OOP. I think your definition is good but maybe too specific, glossing over older types of records (which have nothing to do with classes/mutability). Kotlin calls them "data classes", which I think is a good and descriptive term. – Jberkel 11:43, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree but nobody will use a "good and descriptive term" when the language implementors used a different one! Anyway, thank you for the discussion. Looks fine to me now. Equinox ◑ 04:30, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

thanks for reversing my edit.

I deleted the entire entry under the English suffix "-ard" preparatory to adding a note, then was called away. When I returned to restore it, I was pleasantly surprised to see that you had already done so.

Background: There is now bubbling up a campaign to deprecate the demonym "Spaniard" because it is misinterpreted (almost exclusively by non-English speakers whose native tongue is Spanish) as a pejorative, based upon the occurrence of "ard" (and not the actual suffix "-iard") in that demonym. The Wiktionary entry is often used to support this campaign, and I was about to add content to emphasize the distinction between "-ard" and "-iard/ard", which is common in demonyms which originated in Old French (cf. Savoyard, Montagnard, etc.) and which is not at all derogatory. I'm now considering whether a separate entry for the suffix as used in demonyns, or a note under the entry for "Spaniard", will best serve to explain that the "-iard" in "Spaniard" is not cognate with the "-ard" in "dullard". It would be a pity if we lose a perfectly benign demonym for such a foolish reason. Adambrower (talk) 01:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

@Adambrower: That's crazy. Yes, please add some explanations. I don't see a separate suffix though, isn't it just the case that the words end happen to end in -y- or -gn-? If the word has been taken from (Old) French, then English -ard obviously does not apply, and it should not be categorized as such. – Jberkel 08:20, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

To convince Redditors and Tumblrites: remind them that their fandom fave Jean-Luc Picard (i.e. a person from Picardy) is not offensive. Equinox ◑ 10:55, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

FWOTD nominations

If you happen to know any good FWOTD candidates, I'd love to learn of them. Also, do you know a good date for avion? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 19:45, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I'll have a look, but they'll be mostly German. For avion, maybe a date relating to Saint-Exupéry? Jberkel 09:28, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Why?

didn't you just delete the crappy pages? QuickPhyxa (talk) 21:51, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Afrodeutsche and when a neologism stops being one

de.wiki [3] states that the term Afrodeutsche (and thus likely also any related/derived term) emerged in the 1980s. Duden has first included these terms starting from the 2006 edition. What exactly is the cutoff for when a neologism stops being one? I personally would definitely classify them as such, especially considering that they are not (yet) in ubiquitous use. Fytcha (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Fytcha: See this discussion (neologism), using a rough cutoff point of 20 years. Assuming Afrodeutsch is from the 1980s means it's been around for 40 years, so most definitely not a neologism any more. Ubiquity doesn't matter at this point, but I'm not sure what other term(s) would be more common for the same concept (besides the longish "Deutsche afrikanischer Herkunft"). It does get used in German mainstream media. – Jberkel 18:44, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

@Jberkel: Thank you for referring me to this discussion page. Fytcha (talk) 19:41, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

lost on

How is this a negative polarity item. One of the citations suggest it is not. Do you have evidence that it is overwhelmingly used in the various negative-polarity contexts? DCDuring (talk) 15:55, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I realised it after looking for citations. Feel free to remove it. – Jberkel 16:53, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Thesaurus of Copulation/ copulate

I think "screw" and "shag" are verb (as thesaurus of copulate) and "screwing" and "shagging" are noun (as Copulation thesaurus). Can you correct me if I'm wrong? Thanks in advance. BabesLooker (talk) 03:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@BabesLooker: If you look at the entries shag and screw, you'll find the noun senses. And please check our formatting guidelines or look at how other entries are formatted. Jberkel 09:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)