Umu igbo

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 18:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Marking tones in Igbo

Welcome! I'm excited to see someone who wants to contribute in Igbo! Before you go any further, I'd like to standardise the entries we have so far, as they're a bit inconsistent currently. One thing we should be doing is putting the tones in the headword, rather than in the pagetitle (like we do for Yoruba, for example). This allows people to look up words if they come across them in the wild without any tones, which is a very common occurrence. I can help with making templates for this. Let me know what you think! —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:19, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, will be correcting the former entries and doing so from now on. I'm really new to editing in wiktionary, and would definitely appreciate the help! Umu igbo (talk) 21:00, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Quick question, how do I correct the former entries? I just realized that I don't know how to do that. Umu igbo (talk) 21:45, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

It's a bit easier for me to have a go at it, because I can move them without leaving redirects behind. I can also create some of the new infrastructure that you'll want. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:43, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh ok, thanks! Umu igbo (talk) 22:52, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I started on it, but I realised I'm a bit confused about the tones. Emenanjọ's grammar makes a convincing case for there being two tonemes, high and low (plus downstep in most dialects), but I see from your entries that you seem to be using a three-toneme system. I use Echeruo's dictionary, which also marks two tonemes... but sadly omits downstep. We should make sure we're using a consistent tone-marking scheme before I move all the entries. (By the way, let me know if you need PDFs of any of these books.) —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:43, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

I would very much like the PDF of Emenanjo's grammar, but I think the confusion is coming from the fact that I leave the high tone unmarked in some entries and marked in others? I was planning on fixing that, too, since I didn't realize that I was using two completely different tone marking schemes until today. Umu igbo (talk) 00:01, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Send me an email here, and I can send it to you. Are you fine with following Echeruo's dictionary for tones, and marking downstep where we can in the IPA? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:28, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, that should be fine. There are some older entries that mark downstep in the pagetitle, but there aren't a lot of them. Umu igbo (talk) 00:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Here's my first go at a page documenting all of these standards: Wiktionary:About Igbo. Take a look and see what you think. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:43, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

It's pretty good as it is right now. I can't really think of anything I would want to add to or subtract from it. Umu igbo (talk) 01:09, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm working on the moves, but the pages will have to be cleaned up as well. I created a set of headword-line templates to match the ones we have for Yoruba. By the way, I came across a sense "family" at azụ, which I'm unfamiliar with, seemingly added by someone who doesn't know Igbo. Do you know what's going on there? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:58, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

That's not a sense I'm familiar with. Probably a mistake, though I wonder what they wanted to put there. Umu igbo (talk) 04:45, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I think I'll just remove it, then. One thing that's cropping up during the cleanup of existing entries is proper nouns like Adichie where I simply don't know what the tones ought to be. (The template produces a little question mark to let you know it's not tone-marked.) Do you have a solution for these, like a native speaker you could ask? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 07:46, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I consulted my mother about it, and she said it meant something "one (who) comes in place of another", and is probably a shortening of "a dịchiela" which would be [H ꜜHHHH]. If I'm correct, the downstep on the verbal prefix is as explained in page 30 of Igwe & Green's grammar. Don't know what the official name of my mother's dialect is, but she's from Owerri. Umu igbo (talk) 11:19, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

All the other proper nouns should be easier for me to do, since I'm familiar with them. Umu igbo (talk) 11:33, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for asking — parents can be an excellent resource. Don't forget that underdots should be in the page title — I moved the entry to Adịchie. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:33, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, didn't notice that the underdots weren't there. Thanks! Umu igbo (talk) 19:38, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I noticed from my talk page that you marked the downstepped tones with a macron (¯). If you want to do that in entries, we should be consistent — it's probably a good idea, but the problem for me is that I can't check entries as easily (seeing as Echeruo doesn't give it, although Williamson does). In any case, if you want to do that, then we need to change WT:AIG and make sure our entries are updated too. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 19:58, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it'd probably be a good idea. With nouns, I could definitely see us going without the macron, but with verbs I don't think it'd be realistic. It should be easy to update the entries though - it's just a matter of adding the diacritic. Umu igbo (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, I feel like if we do it, we should do it everywhere for consistency. By the way, have you gotten the hang of the headword-line templates? They should be pretty straightforward, as they only take the tone-marked form (and the part of speech for {{ig-pos}}, when there isn't a dedicated template). —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:47, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Basically, but I didn't know what to use with pronouns, and when I used the {{ig-pos}}, it displayed the question mark again. So I didn't use it for pronouns. Tried to use them elsewhere though. Umu igbo (talk) 07:35, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Did you use {{ig-pos|pronoun|foo}}? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:08, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I did not in fact do that. Changing them now. Umu igbo (talk) 23:25, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

ig-conj module

Hello! I have started coding a module for Igbo verbs. Thanks for the information you gave me about the verb conjugations. So far I implemented functions to conjugate the infinitive and participle. You can see the testcases at Module:ig-conj/testcases. To be certain I coded it correctly, I'll need some more verb roots and their correct infinitive and participial forms to use as more test cases. Preferably verbs with different tones and vowels, as well as some multisyllabic roots (if those exist). I'll continue to work on some of the other conjugations you mentioned as well. Once that's done I just need to output everything as a formatted wikitable. (Though someone else might need to help me with the formatting. @Metaknowledge, do you have any experience with that?) So once you have a chance, I'd really appreciate a list of more verbs to work with. Thanks! Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 19:22, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing!

Monosyllabic examples

-sá (verb root), ị́sā (infinitive), àsá (participle) {means "wash"}

-dà (verb root), ị́dà (infinitive), ádà (participle) {means "fall"}

-kpé (verb root), íkpē (infinitive), èkpé (participle) {means "pray, beg"}

-bè (verb root), íbè (infinitive), ébè (participle) {means "cut"}

Polysyllabic examples

-chètá (verb root), íchètà (infinitive), échètá (participle) {means "remember"}

-kwádó (verb root), ị́kwādó (infinitive), àkwádó (participle) {means "prepare"}

-hàpụ̀ (verb root), ị́hāpụ̀ (infinitive), áhàpụ̀ (participle) {means "leave"}

-gbásà (verb root), ị́gbāsà (infinitive), àgbásà (participle) {means "spread, scatter"}

Should these be okay? Umu igbo (talk) 20:32, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

This is great! Thanks! --Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 21:32, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Smash! I don't know much about creating the formatting, but I can certainly comment on the layout, if that's what you're looking for. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:45, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I just need someone who can help make a collapsable nice-looking table. Right now I put a basic placeholder table in Template:ig-conj. So mainly it will just need some CSS styling to get it looking nice. I can ask in WT:GP and maybe someone can help with that. --Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 21:56, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Module:sw-conj is pretty good for the most part, if that helps as a model. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:02, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Umu igbo, could you explain the infinitive forms for -chètá and -hàpụ̀? I'm looking at the Emenanjo's grammar of Igbo, and I see a tone rule called Rightward Lowering Rule which states "A high tone becomes a low tone when it occurs after a low tone in an infinitive." I think that explains íchètà. And another rule, Raising Rule, states that "A low tone is raised to a high tone when it occurs between a verb stem boundary and a low tone." Is this the rule that accounts for -hàpụ̀? So it changes to -hápụ̀, and then the infinitive prefix causes downstep. Just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. So can I assume all LL roots will have the tone pattern HML in the infinitive, and LH roots become HLL? --Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 22:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, you're correct, and there should be no exceptions to those rules. Umu igbo (talk) 22:38, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Umu igbo, sorry to bother you again, but I think I will actually need the correct conjugations of the above verbs for each of the forms you mentioned before (positive/negative imperative, subjunctive, sequential, simple present, -rV form, negative -ghi form, perfective). I tried to read about how they are formed, but I'm just not certain enough about them. There's no rush, so take your time. Thanks! --Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 18:38, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Sure thing! Sorry for the delay by the way - I had a lot of schoolwork this past three days and I couldn't find much time to edit.

-sá (verb root), sàá (pos. imperative), ásālá (neg. imperative), sáá (subjunctive/sequential), sà (simple pres.), sàrà (-rV form), sághị̄ (neg. form), sáálá (perfective)

-dà (verb root), dàá (pos. imperative), ádàlà (neg. imperative, note that the tone is low because the immediately preceeding tone is low), dàá (subjunctive/sequential), dà (simple pres.), dàrà (-rV form), dághị̄ (neg. form), dàálá (perfective)

-kpé (verb root), kpèé (pos. imperative), ékpēlá (neg. imperative), kpéé (subjunctive/sequential), kpè (simple pres.), kpèrè (-rV form), kpéghī (neg. form), kpéélá (perfective)

-bè (verb root), bèé (pos. imperative), ébèlà (neg. imperative), bèé (subjunctive/sequential), bè (simple pres.), bèrè (-rV form), béghī (neg. form), bèélá (perfective)

Polysyllabic examples

-chètá (verb root), chètá (pos. imperative, polysyllabic verbs don't usually take the suffix at all, and will lower the first element of the verb root if there exists no other low tones), échètàlà (neg. imperative), chètá (subjunctive/sequential), chètà (simple pres.), chètàrà (-rV form), chétághị̄ (neg. form), chètálá (perfective)

-kwádó (verb root), kwàdó (pos.imp), ákwādólá (neg.imp), kwádó (subj/seq), kwàdò (simple pres), kwàdòrò (-rV form), kwádóghī (neg.form), kwádólá (perfective)

-hàpụ̀ (verb root), hápụ̄ (pos.imp), áhāpụ̀là (neg.imp), hàpụ̀(subjunctive/sequential), hàpụ̀(simple present), hàpụ̀rụ̀ (-rV form), hápụ̀ghị̄ (neg. form), hàpụ̀lá (perfective)

-gbásà (verb root), gbásā (pos.imp), ágbāsàlà (neg.imp), gbásà(subjunctive/sequential), gbàsà(simple present), gbàsàrà (-rV form), gbásàghị̄ (neg. form) gbásàlá (perfective)

Note that for the -la/-le suffixes, some dialects apply ATR vowel harmony on them, some don't. My parents speak the dialect that doesn't, as do most people I know, but most grammars include the vowel harmony distinction. Couldn't find or remember anything about LL and HL root verbs negation, I'll ask later today Umu igbo (talk) 18:26, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: Completed the list. Sorry for the delay by the way, school's really busy this time of the year. @Smashhoof Umu igbo (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Moving content that's not your own

Wiktionary's CC-BY-SA license requires all content to be attributed to its contributor. Normally, that's not a problem, because the edit history shows who created what. When content is moved to another entry, however, the edit history stays at the original entry. Worse, when the original entry is deleted, the edit history disappears for everyone but admins.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with moving content, but you should always mention in your edit summary where you got it from, as in "moving [content] from óbì". When you move content to another entry and tag it for deletion, it's a good idea to mention in the deletion tag that the content has been moved, so the deleting admin will know to fix any problems with attribution.

This is all very picky and not everyone does it, but I thought I would explain how to do things right so you would know. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 01:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh sorry about that! Will make sure to do that from now on. Umu igbo (talk) 02:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Representation of tones in Igbo

@Umu igbo Hello! I hope that you've been doing well. I posted this in Wiktionary talk:About Igbo at the start of this month, but I thought you might've missed it there, so I'll post it here too. I just had a quick question about the representation of tones for Igbo. According to the standard orthography and many dictionaries, the low tone & downstep tone marks should be marked, while the high tone should be left unmarked, for fully-tone-marked texts. However, on Wiktionary, it seems that high tones are marked while low tones aren't. Thus, I was wondering if we could make a shift to the standard orthography's method, since that's what people would encounter the most? I would like to reduce confusion as much as possible. Thank you! AG202 (talk) 01:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC) AG202 (talk) 22:35, 30 November 2021 (UTC)