Template talk:es-note-noun-common-gender-a

RFD discussion: March–May 2023

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Template:es-note-noun-common-gender-a

Template:es-note-noun-f-starting-with-stressed-a

Pretty much the same situation of the now deleted {{es-note-noun-mf}}. Pinging @AG202, Theknightwho, The Editor's Apprentice, Vininn126, Ultimateria, Fenakhay, Jberkel from the past discussion. Do we need to wait a month do delete these as well or can we claim snowball and speedy? Catonif (talk) 17:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Speedy delete all. Vininn126 (talk) 17:09, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Delete the first one. The second one though, I'd strong keep. This is a common error that learners run into and even the RAE has a special page on it. It's not something that you'd expect when learning the language and is very helpful for learners. It's honestly exactly what I'd expect out of a usage note (though it could use some tweaking). AG202 (talk) 18:50, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd definitely say to delete Template:es-note-noun-common-gender-a since it is just explaining that the endings of nouns don't have a strict correspondence to their grammatical gender, which is like 101 knowledge for someone learning about grammatical gender or Spanish. As I mentioned in the previous discussion, it feels like something aimed at English monolinguals in the US. As to Template:es-note-noun-f-starting-with-stressed-a, I am more on the fence, it definitely is still just an explanation of a standard part of Spanish grammar, but it is less 101-level stuff (I don't remember it coming up in my 3 years of Spanish education) and RAE having a particular page on the subject is also notable. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 22:08, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Delete both. I'm a little conflicted about -f-a but ultimately I don't think individual pages are the best place for that information. Ultimateria (talk) 02:09, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

@Ultimateria Where would that information go? There aren't that many words that fall under this. We have the usage note section for a reason, and this is one of the biggest examples of why we have it. Taking from WT:EL: "Describe how a term is used," knowing that feminine Spanish nouns with a tonic initial a take el is not intuitive, is something that I've seen come up many many times with learners and natives alike, and is part of how the terms are used. Hence the RAE page I mentioned, and in fact the RAE has 5+ pages on it: [1], [2], [3], and more, let alone their multiple Twitter responses. This is something that should be on those pages. Not even the Wikipedia pages for Spanish grammar, Spanish nouns, nor Grammatical gender in Spanish have the information (surprisingly). The only other pages that I've found that have it on Wiktionary are Appendix:Spanish nouns with irregular gender which unsurprisingly lists agua & águila and describes them as being masculine, which is very wrong, and when an IP tried to correct it, they were reverted. The other one is Category:Spanish nouns with irregular gender, which also describes it rather poorly (saying that el in "el agua" is the masculine article, when it's not). This only goes to show how often this issue comes up, and why we need it on our entries (to also correct situations like that). CC: @Catonif, @The Editor's Apprentice, @Vininn126. AG202 (talk) 02:54, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

It belongs in a textbook and probably the Wikipedia page "Grammatical gender in Spanish". Information also needs to be moved out of Category:Spanish nouns with irregular gender and into the appendix. My main objection to the template is that I'm (generally) against centralizing information regarding groups of words on each page in the set. Ultimateria (talk) 04:25, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I've come around. Delete es-note-noun-common-gender-a and keep es-note-noun-f-starting-with-stressed-a. Ultimateria (talk) 16:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Delete es-note-noun-common-gender-a, keep es-note-noun-f-starting-with-stressed-a. I disagree with removing usage notes about the article used for the words that start with [a]. Aside from being hard to predict for many learners, I believe it is lexical information, since not all words behave the same way even if they have similar phonological form or grammatical roles (e.g. see the list here: https://spanish.stackexchange.com/a/25868 , which mentions exceptions for "letters, acronyms, proper names, continents, nominalized adjectives, (some) fem. nouns with fem. subjects, common gender nouns with fem. subjects").--Urszag (talk) 04:34, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Delete es-note-noun-common-gender-a, keep es-note-noun-f-starting-with-stressed-a. A criterion could be how generic the usage note is (to how many terms it could be applied). – Jberkel 08:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Delete es-note-noun-common-gender-a; I am on the fence about the other one. Contrary to User:The Editor's Apprentice, I remember the rule about el agua vs. la araña being one of the first things I learned, but didn't know about the exceptions mentioned by User:Urszag. If kept, though, the template should definitely have less info and a link to the appendix with more detail. Benwing2 (talk) 23:54, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

RFD-deleted common-gender-a and RFD-kept f-starting-with-stressed-a. Catonif (talk) 14:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

I rewrote the second template. Could the editors involved in this take a look at it? Catonif (talk) 14:51, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks great to me, @Catonif, thanks for giving it a touch up! —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)