User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 25

Burmese

I was editing the etymology section of 亂／乱 (luàn) and couldn't find the Burmese cognate on SEAlang. I'm not sure if Burmese ပြွမ်း (prwam:) is one of the words listed there. Could you please help? It's on p. 390 of Schuessler. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: (You mean p. 369, right? It's p. 390 in the PDF haha) Sorry, I'm not sure about Burmese myself. @Atitarev, would you be able to help? The cognates are given as broŋᴮ ~ byoŋᴮ ~ prunᴮ ~ runᴮ "tumultuous" (in Paul Benedict's Rhyming Dictionary, brôŋ ~ byôŋ- "tumultuously"; prûn ~ pa-rûn- "tumultuous; disorderly"; rûn "tumultuous"). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:05, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: Sorry for the late reply. I am not sure about the Burmese descendant. It's not easy to find. I have created all Khmer terms mentioned the entry, plus the Burmese ပြွမ်း (prwam:). @RichardW57, Mahagaja: Can you help there?

Also, @Mahagaja - there seems to be a new case of a missing Burmese initial /pjw-/. ပြွမ်း (prwam:) is pronounced as both /pjʊ́ɴ/ and /pjwáɴ/. I am not able to add the respelling for the alternative reading. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't be of any help here. I don't know anything about Sino-Tibetan historical linguistics and don't have any sources on it. As for the initial cluster, I don't know how to edit Module:my-pron to fix it. Unfortunately Wyang seems to have left the project. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

漢語方言大詞典 (by 許寶華 & 宮田一郎)

Hi. Just wondering whether this is a reliable source. --TheDarkKnightLi ​(STAY HAPPY) 22:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Thedarkknightli: I sometimes use it when I'm desperate, but it occasionally quotes some century-old sources so use with caution. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Thedarkknightli: I agree with @RcAlex36. It's an okay source, but it's riddled with errors and includes material from the Qing dynasty (or even before). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: I see. Thanks for your replies, guys. --TheDarkKnightLi ​(STAY HAPPY) 05:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Guangzhou Cantonese High Falling Tone

Hey @Justinrleung, I wanna revive this topic. I remember we discussed it before, but I recently watch some videos of Guangzhou people talking, and they clearly still use the High Falling Tone which seems to be lost in Hong Kong, and I checked my 漢英小字典, and the words they say with a high falling tone does correspond to what's written in the dictionary, so I was thinking, the fact that we list all variant pronunciations of words in Standard Mandarin, shouldn't we also include these pronunciations in Cantonese? Especially since they're still used. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 04:46, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: There are several things that would need to be solved. First, Jyutping doesn't support this distinction, so we'd need additional notation. Second, we might need to split Guangzhou and Hong Kong if we do choose to make this distinction. Third, while this distinction may be clear for single character entries if we have the right sources, it's not as clear with multi-character entries because there is also tone sandhi involved (falling to level). The only 詞典 that distinguishes falling from level that I'm aware of is 廣州方言詞典, which lacks many common words because it's focused on dialectal terms. We'd need to be quite careful about this. @RcAlex36, any thoughts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:47, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser: Can we do something like 1* for the High Falling Tone? I think the major issue is for many words we don't know whether the High Falling Tone should be used. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Personally I think that flat and falling should both be marked, with 1 being ambiguous. 1- and 1`? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 07:29, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: That's a good idea! (also @RcAlex36, Mar vin kaiser:) Do you think we should show it in Jyutping in display or should we just show it in Yale and IPA? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:34, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Jyutping and IPA, and perhaps also Yale (saying this because I seldom pay attention to Yale, lol). RcAlex36 (talk) 08:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I asked because Yale can actually distinguish the two tones, but Jyutping can't unless we modify it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:32, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Wow I didn't know that! If we show it in Jyutping, we may have to call our romanization system modified Jyutping. I'm fine with not showing it in Jyutping. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:36, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yes, the dictionary I have, 漢英小字典, uses Yale pronunciation so it distinguishes high falling (bìu 標, dìn 顛) and high flat (bīu 錶, dīn 癲), as written in the dictionary. Though it seems to say that most words are high falling (that are usually high flat in the usual dictionaries). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:08, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: I'm curious, which usual dictionaries are you talking about? Other dictionaries using Yale? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Nah, I mean other dictionaries that don't distinguish the two tones, so presumably, they're only talking about high flat. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Well, they're kind of in free variation, so generally I'd say they're referring to both without distinguishing the two tones. Most younger people in HK would use the flat tone, but there are plenty of people who use both or the falling tone without distinguishing them. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Do you think it's possible that it's not as of a free variation in Guangzhou? For example, the character 區, sometimes I hear them say it with a high falling, sometimes with a high rising. Maybe there are characters that they never say with a high falling. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 01:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: The distinction seems to persist in Guangzhou, but it's probably a change in progress. For 區, as an example, if you hear both, you still need to consider all the context: Is it in a non-final position that would cause it to be tone sandhi-ed? Is it just read on its own? It's also interesting that even Guangzhou sources only mark it as tone 1 without distinguishing the two forms. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:56, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Dialectal synonyms table for 出生

I'm thinking of doing this, but we don't seem to have much data, especially for 出生. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:38, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It's probably more data than we have for 出生證 though, right? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Did a quick search on 現代漢語方言大詞典 and guess what I've got? Nothing. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:44, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Oh well. It could just be skewed towards the dialectal terms. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Basically the same problem I encountered when doing Module:zh/data/dial-syn/一輩子. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:48, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: We've gotta work with what we have :D It's really annoying that these sources often leave out 共同語. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

-uoi final in the Fuzhou dielect

Is there supposed to be no 鬆緊韻 distinction for the -uoi final in the Fuzhou dielct? Compare 杯 (bēi) vs 啡 (fēi) (Etymology 4). RcAlex36 (talk) 16:45, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Alright this appears to be the case, as described in 福州方言松紧韵母实验研究 and on the English wiki page on the Fuzhou dialect. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:51, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Sorry, I'm not sure about the details of Fuzhou dialect's phonology/phonetics. We can probably go with 福州方言松紧韵母实验研究, which is probably more reliable than previous sources that have just recorded the dialect based on hearing. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

買米

I want to create a Module:zh/data/dial-syn/買米, but 買米 is SoP. What should I do? RcAlex36 (talk) 07:10, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I think we could have different modules of 買 depending on the object? I'm not quite sure though. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:27, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: 漢語方言詞彙 has 買米 as an entry. 糴米 isn't considered SoP and is already an entry here on Wiktionary. What should we do? RcAlex36 (talk) 16:36, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: We could maybe have it at Module:zh/data/dial-syn/買米 but not create 買米 as an entry. I think we can maybe modify the code so that we could link 買 and 米 separately? We can maybe write it as "買//米" in the synonyms module? If so, we'll have to change the main module to allow this kind of syntax. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:43, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Or maybe create an entry anyway as a "synonym hub", like "translation hubs". —Suzukaze-c (talk) 21:42, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c, RcAlex36: That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure what other editors would think of this. English can have "translation hubs" because English is the language of this dictionary, but is Chinese justified in having these synonym hubs? Whatever we decide for this would be helpful in the long run because I can think of other entries that could make use of this (like 洗衣服 and 生孩子). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:49, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

It's definitely more odd, but I think it would be superior for discoverability. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 22:51, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: I'm just wondering if there'd be a need for a vote for such entries to exist. Pinging @Metaknowledge, Atitarev to see what their thoughts are. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:04, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure, sorry but I think it's not a bad idea to have module for synonyms with linking to components, if they are SoP in Mandarin. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:25, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Not sure why I was pinged, but I don't see any good justification for creating SOP Mandarin entries, so I concur with Anatoli. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:02, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Cantonese pronunciation of 復活／复活

You seem to have added fau6 wut6 back in 2016. Do you people who actually say that? RcAlex36 (talk) 18:08, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yup. I know some people in 禮賢會 who say that. I'm not sure if it's common outside of Rhenish/Lutheran circles. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:34, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: You mean in Canada? I've never heard fau6 wut6 in Hong Kong myself. Well, back then when I attended a Catholic school, it was always fuk6 wut6. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:36, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: No, 禮賢會九龍堂 in 又一村 (close to Festival Walk). I've never heard it outside of that church, though. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:38, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Wow that's specific. Anyway thanks for telling me. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:40, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Haha :D I think it's probably used in other 禮賢會 churches. The fau6 reading is also used in 復生 in the 文言 Apostle's Creed (like in this recording of a service at the Wan Chai church, at around 22:41). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Sabah (Bao'an)

Hi, where is data on Sabah (Bao'an) Hakka from? Thanks. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:04, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: The only source is our fellow contributor @Qhwans. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh I thought there was a paper or something. Thanks for telling me. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:59, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: By the way, I'm not trying to overwhelm the dialectal synonyms table, but we can still add some Hakka 方言點. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:03, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: For that matter, we should add more 方言點 for Malaysian Hokkien and Cantonese if we have the resources. Besides Penang, Klang, Kuching are predominantly Hokkien speaking, while Ipoh and Sandakan are predominantly Cantonese speaking. We can probably add some for Min Dong (there are none for overseas varieties as of now), and for that there is Sitiawan, Yong Peng, Sibu and Miri in Malaysia. And we don't have one for Malaysian Hainanese, for which we could probably add Kuala Terengganu. The dog2 (talk) 04:20, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: But we don't have the resources (lol). Normally, people aren't really interested in dialects spoken outside Greater China. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:22, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There's this and this for Malaysian Hainanese, but I don't know which city it is based on. The dog2 (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, The dog2: There is interest in overseas varieties, but it's hard to investigate given other factors. 陈晓锦 has worked on other varieties and there's a 3-volume survey called 东南亚华人社区汉语方言概要 - I'm not sure how much vocab there is though because I don't have access to a copy of it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:50, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Also, yes, of course, there are lots of things we can still add, but I think there's an obvious imbalance in our tables. There are way too many southern dialects (which is a given because that's the reality in the literature as well). We're hardly covering Mandarin properly, and we're missing important groups like Tuhua and Shaojiang Min. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:54, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: Unfortunately, I don't have resources for this, but perhaps we could post a request on Wikipedia to ask for help from Malaysian Wikipedians. I'm pretty sure there will be some slight differences between the Cantonese in Kuala Lumpur, Ipoh and Sandakan. And I know for sure there are some Seiyap speakers from Malaysia too (my aunt is one of them), though I'm not sure if there are any Malaysian cities where the Chinese community is majority Seiyap speaking. And in Singapore, we have much smaller communities of other dialects too. The Hakka community is actually larger than the Hainanese community, but I just don't have access to a native speaker. The dog2 (talk) 05:00, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I actually do have some resources on two dialects of Singapore Hakka (Meixian and Dabu). We could probably add those. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: I have Kulai Hakka. There's a thesis on it. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:07, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Justin, what's your source for Singapore Hakka? RcAlex36 (talk) 05:32, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It's 新加坡客家, which has a section by 嚴修鴻. It's not available on that website. I borrowed it a while back from my uni library. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:28, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: That's why we have to add all those Mandarin 方言點 in 普通话基础方言基本词汇集. By the way, I have 古丈瓦鄉話, a variety of Chinese that branched off earlier than Min but no one talks about. Also, we should probably add all those Gan 方言點 in the two Hakka-Gan studies. Shaojiang Min (many linguists still don't think it's Min) is definitely doable. The Pinghua and Tuhua dialects can be added, perhaps after we have a good way of classifying them. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:09, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I've got 古丈瓦鄉話 as well. Shaojiang Min is treated as part of Min Bei in Ethnologue; I think we can maybe follow them on that like we do by including Leizhou Min and Hainanese in Min Nan? For Pinghua and Tuhua, I think we could either group them together as one or just separate them as Pinghua and Tuhua? I'll have to look into it a little more. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:34, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Shaojiang Min should probably be its own category, since its conspicuously different fom Min Bei and its classification is disputed. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: For that matter, whether or not the Danzhou dialect should be classified as a dialect of Cantonese is controversial. As for Singapore Hakka, interesting that they would document two separate varieties of Hakka, but that said, as far as Mindong goes, the Fuzhou and Fuqing communities are considered distinct in Singapore, so I guess it's not that surprising then. With regards to China, is there any 方言點 for the Hakka in Hainan? Apparent, there is a Hakka community there too. The dog2 (talk) 15:33, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think there is basically zero documentation, except on 語保工程採錄展示平台 that ordinary folks like you and I don't have access to. I actually find dialects in Hainan under-researched. Hakka elsewhere is relatively well-documented though. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:35, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: 語保工程採錄展示平台 seems to be available to Chinese citizens upon request? Not sure if people from HK like you could try submitting a form to them to request access. (It seems like the website can't be accessed here in Canada now?) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Someone on Zhihu commented earlier that the request function does't actually work. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:50, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Really, eh? All this deception... I wonder how that guy on YouTube who posts stuff from the site has access to it then... — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:51, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps he has connections or something, but there are many interesting 方言點 in his videos. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Don't know if you have noticed, we have 方言點 for almost every city and county in Fujian. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: For Hokkien, I've noticed that. And even many locations in Taiwan too. I guess Hokkien is one of the better researched variants. The number of Teochew 方言點 also seems to have expanded, but one city we still don't have is Puning. For Hainanese, it'd be nice if we could have Sanya, since the Hainanese there is noticeably different from the Hainanese in northern Hainan. The dog2 (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Puning and Huilai, to be exact. And to be honest, the vocabulary used in Chaozhou, Chenghai, Shantou and Jieyang are just the same most of time. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:03, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There are some subtle differences though. 暝昏 means "evening" in Chaozhou and Shantou (and Singaporean Teochew), but means "night" in Jieyang and Shanwei. Speaking of which, we don't have a 方言點 for downtown Shanwei either. The dog2 (talk) 16:15, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I don't have Shanwei, but I have data on the dialect spoken by fishermen in Shanwei fishing villages. I also have Macau Tanka (水上話). RcAlex36 (talk) 16:21, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2, RcAlex36: By the way, should we keep Guangzhou as one entry as it is now, or should we split Guangzhou into 東山口音 and 西關口音? I know there is a distinction between the two (eg. 呢 vs 依). The dog2 (talk) 17:47, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: We don't have resources that distinguish between the two accents. Yes, they seem to be just accents. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:50, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Character for Teochew gaoh4

Hey there, what character should we use for this? I've heard it in a number of Teochew videos as an equivalent of 卷. The dog2 (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 writes it as 𩛩. I'm not sure if there's a better character. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:54, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

OK, we can just use that then. Mogher didn't provide a character, so I wasn't sure which one to use. The dog2 (talk) 04:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: If you read the Mogher entry carefully, it does suggest 毂, but I don't know how common that is. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

No idea. Usually when it comes up, people just write it as 卷. The dog2 (talk) 05:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

IP changing stuff

@The dog2 We have a user here changing Hainanese entries. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:48, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Reverted. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:52, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Please do keep an eye, because the IP seems argumentative on their talk page. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Yup, definitely. (They're not an IP, though, haha). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:31, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Make sure you send them only that page though, not the entire document. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:42, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:43, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Hakka 方言點

@The dog2 I've added 大埔(西河), 吉隆坡 (大埔) and 博白 (沙河). I've also moved the Guangxi Hakka 方言點. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36 Great, thanks! Just wondering what sources you’re using for these. I think I know for KL, but what are the other ones? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Mainland Dabu is from the KL one. Bobai (Shahe) is from 博白县沙河镇客家话研究. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:13, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Nice! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:38, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2 There's also material on two Hakka dialects spoken in Bangkok, Meixian and Fengshun, which I will add some day. I guess we don't need to add Bangkok Cantonese because it's probably extinct by now. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:33, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: It might still be good to include Bangkok Cantonese, and the same may go for Jintan Wu. We are not just documenting the languages that are spoken now. They're extinct or moribund recently, so all the more reason to document these varieties. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 13:29, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I think the Ting Kok and Tung Ping Chau dialects are extinct. You can count the inhabitants of Tung Ping Chau with just one hand now. Is the data for Jintan in the book Wu though? RcAlex36 (talk) 13:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I'll have to look into it, but it should be. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 13:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: How about Phnom Penh Teochew and Ho Chi Minh City Teochew? I'm not sure if there's any speakers left in Cambodia and Vietnam, but some older people in Australia and the U.S. do speak those. And I wonder if we should document Yangon Hokkien and Yangon Taishanese, as well as Mandalay Mandarin (based on Yunnan Mandarin). The dog2 (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Do we even have data for those? (lol) RcAlex36 (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Wow there's actually 缅甸曼德勒台山话词汇研究. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:59, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: There's material on YouTube teaching Vietnamese Teochew (like this), but I'm not sure if it's from Ho Chi Minh City. The dog2 (talk) 14:06, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2, RcAlex36: I don't know about Mandalay Mandarin, but I've found a book on 3 varieties of Yunnan Mandarin spoken in Thailand (泰国的西南官话). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:03, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Well, I'm guessing they are also moribund, given how quickly Thai Chinese are assimilating. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:06, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: 缅甸曼德勒台山话词汇研究 seems to be based on Mandalay though. From what I understand, in modern Myanmar, the Chinese in Yangon are mostly Hokkien and Taishanese, while the Chinese in Mandalay are mostly of Yunnan descent. Speaking of which, expanding beyond Southeast Asia, does anyone know of the dialects of Chinese in India and South Africa? I think the South African Chinese in Johannesburg mainly speak Cantonese, while the Indian-Chinese in Kolkata are predominantly Hakka. Also, I know there is a Chinese community in Cuba, and there's a Havana Chinatown, but I'm not sure if any Chinese dialects are still spoken, or whether the Cuban-Chinese are now all monolingual Spanish speakers. The dog2 (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I doubt there's any published studies on those to date. Given the circumstances in Cuba, I'm quite certain that most Chinese Cubans have either moved to the US or assimilated into mainstream Cuban society. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: For fun: Mini documentary on a Cuban-Chinese(-ish) woman that touches upon it (and a fuller documentary seems to exist as well, called 《古巴花旦》). —Suzukaze-c (talk) 08:48, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: Based on my understanding, there's some seventh generation Chinese-Indians from Kolkata who speak Hakka, and some fourth generation Chinese-South Africans from Johannesburg who speak Cantonese, so if any of you decide to do a PhD in linguistics, perhaps you could study Indian Hakka or South African Cantonese, or both. It would certainly help our dialect tables. The dog2 (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Well, I'm not even a linguistics major student, so I can't help. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:46, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm gonna be doing stuff on Cantonese in Toronto this year for my MA, but I don't think it'll be relevant to this. I don't plan on going too far to do fieldwork atm. Maybe I'll change my mind down the road. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:12, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

鬆緊韻 distinction for a̤

In Module:cdo-pron there is supposed to be a 鬆緊韻 distinction for a̤. However, it isn't showing ɛ at 禮／礼 (lǐ) for some reason. Is the code broken? RcAlex36 (talk) 12:24, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

It appears that the IP's edits caused the problem. I have left a message on their talk page. Let's see if they respond. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:52, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: It has been 24 hours since I posted the message, to which there has been no response. We might have to assume that the IP is not intent on fixing the error in the code and so we have to fix it ourselves. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:23, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

It appears that the module is failing to give 鬆緊韻 distinction for every rime. @Suzukaze-c, are you familiar with the code? Could you please check what's wrong with the code? RcAlex36 (talk) 18:20, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

It's their code from beginning to end. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:39, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Use of chinese characters in Bai

So I saw a your verification request on the article 水. And I did some digging and found something called 僰文 (Bowen) which uses chinese character in a Bai syntax. On one of the inscriptions in Bowen, 山花碑, has the character 水 on it, but Bowen is not used now Henry Wonh (talk) 12:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Henry Wonh: Thanks! You should put your findings in WT:RFVN. My questions are whether 山花碑 is written in 僰文 and whether 水 in 僰文 is actually pronounced as /ɕy³³/. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:37, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Medan Hokkien

What sources do we have for Medan Hokkien? RcAlex36 (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Not much. I think @Mar vin kaiser has found some videos of it before? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:12, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: There are some videos in Youtube that are in Medan Hokkien. There is also a website that tries to list vocabulary in Medan Hokkien using its own crude romanization, but you can make out how they pronounce things, also based on the fact I know that it's mostly based on Zhangzhou Hokkien. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:18, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Dialectal synonyms table

@The dog2 I've always wondered if we should add Standard Mandarin to the table. Officially it isn't a dialect, but its a variety of Mandarin worth documenting, and often times it has many colloquialisms that cannot be considered as formal Chinese. The source will be 現代漢語詞典. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:51, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Plus more and more people seem to be speaking Standard Mandarin as a first language in mainland China, so perhaps we may include it? RcAlex36 (talk) 16:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Doesn't "formal" refer to standard Mandarin in mainland China? And I think the "Taiwan" entry covers standard Mandarin in Taiwan. And we have an entry for Singapore, but it might be worth considering separating Singapore into standard and colloquial Mandarin. That said, colloquial Mandarin in Singapore can be a bit tough to define, since it's quite common to codeswitch to Hokkien, Teochew or Cantonese, or in some cases even Malay or English. The dog2 (talk) 16:56, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Formal is written standard Chinese, according to the module. What about informal terms used in Standard Mandarin? Also, the Taiwan entry covers not only standard Mandarin in Taiwan, but also terms used in Taiwan Mandarin that are considered non-standard Mandarin by official dictionaries, for example 臺 as the classifier for vehicles. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:59, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser I would like to hear your opinion on this. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:29, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Do you mean a kind of "general" Standard Mandarin in Mainland China? I think we could consider adding it, but we'd need to have good ways of distinguishing it from "Formal". Also, there are regional varieties of Standard Mandarin in Mainland China, so what would we base this "Standard Mandarin" on? Is it like an idealized form? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Standard Mandarin in mainland China has a prescriptive standard and is (theoretically) the same in all regions of China. We should probably base this Standard Mandarin on the idealized form. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Then wouldn't many informal forms still be left out because they may not be deemed standard? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:24, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, 現代漢語詞典 has plenty of erhua words that are used in colloquial speech. Does 現代漢語詞典 not contain many informal words? It has many entries that it labels as 口語, or are they not colloquial enough? RcAlex36 (talk) 05:31, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe a good example here is the term for maternal grandmother. Years ago, there was an issue of a textbook using "姥姥" instead of "外婆". Some said the former is 普通话 while the latter is not. While some said both are 普通话. In the end, well both are in 普通话 dictionaries. So they are part of "Standard Mandarin", but in our dialectal synonyms chart, they're only shown in the regional dialect portion. For "Formal Written Standard Chinese", we put 外祖母. So it seems that we should somehow indicate 姥姥 and 外婆 as part of "informal" Standard Mandarin. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:57, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: My idea was to include words used in spoken Standard Mandarin that aren't too literary (those will belong to Written Standard Chinese and are labelled <书> in 現代漢語詞典). So yeah, I would include 姥姥, 外婆 and 外祖母. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:39, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: It may sometimes get tricky though. 今日 isn't labelled 書面語 in 現代漢語詞典, but that's still too formal to be used in colloquial speech. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: 外婆 is marked as <方> in 現代漢語詞典, which is another issue. It's clearly used in Putonghua, but it may be restricted to the south. I'm not sure how closely we should follow 現代漢語詞典 for this "Standard Mandarin". Another issue is probably neologisms or slang terms that aren't in 現代漢語詞典 (or 現代漢語規範詞典). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:37, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Mar vin kaiser, RcAlex36: Another potential issue here. Some expressions aren't really classical Chinese, but also sound way too stilted even for formal speech, and are only used in formal writing. An example is when telling time. To indicate the hour, 時 is used instead of 點 when you are writing a formal letter or making a formal written announcement. For instance, to indicate 1:30 PM, you'll write it as 下午1時30分. However, this is so stilted that even in news broadcasts, the anchors will revert to using 點. The dog2 (talk) 15:48, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yeah, there are definitely different degrees of formality. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:53, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

In my opinion though, at the very least, there should be a way to show that 外婆 and 姥姥 are part of Standard Mandarin (普通话) and can be used in everyday speech, while the other Mandarin dialectal terms in the chart, like 外奶奶, 姥兒, 舅家奶, 家婆, are almost never used in Standard Mandarin to mean "maternal grandmother". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:01, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Lists by frequencies

Hello Justin, I just discovered Module:User:Justinrleung/char-summary which is quite impressive. Over the years I collected frequency lists there. I though it could be handy to you as well. Cai & Brysbaert 2010 made the strongest argument for subtitles-based frequency, confirmed by correlation with well known reaction-times to words/characters displayed. Yug (talk) 18:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug: Thanks, I'll be sure to look into it! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:32, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm also interested to know what is your frequency list's sources ? I don't have it yet. (but I do exclude non-academic backed frequency lists). Yug (talk) 06:40, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug: It's actually a fork of Wyang's module. I'm not sure where he got it from. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

A quick google search doesn't return academic source. So I may need more research on this. In any way, other sources can be used. Cai & Brysbaert 2010 is for spoken frequency, therefor for today language teaching materials. Da Jun is for written frequency. If I remember well there are also some frequency lists by written text type : news papers, novels, historical books. But it was not my focus at the time so I didn't kept them in mind. I store the core of this knowledge on en:w:Word lists by frequency. Yug (talk) 08:05, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug: It may be this one, but I'm not sure. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:18, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I will inspect that. Sorry to also ask this, but while saved I Module:User:Justinrleung/char-summary I lost track of were its output is displayed. Can you help me ? I'am creating a fork for modern characters, so I may track my mass uploads of Kaishu, Clerical, Songti I wish to do in 2021. Yug (talk) 08:30, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug: You can probably have a page like User:Yug/char-summary and put in {{#invoke:User:Yug/char-summary|main}}. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:36, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes ! This. invoke. Thank you. Yug (talk) 08:51, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

@Yug: Not a problem! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:56, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Please delete doenghaemh

Please delete the page. I misspelled the page title.

By the way, 壮语方言研究 p. 609 has doengzhaemh instead of doengxhaemh. I wonder why. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:23, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Deleted. I'm not sure about the discrepancy. Could be a typo or just a dialectal thing. Wuming doesn't necessary mean Standard Zhuang, as you probably know. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:36, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

capitalization

Hey- I wanted to point out that, in my opinion, the State Council Information Office and Xinhua News Agency respect the true usage of English language capitalization more than Wiktionary does. The word 'prefecture' is never written in lowercase when used as part of a proper noun in this document: [1], but Wiktionary and Wikipedia's attempt to force continental (European) capitalization rules onto English cause Yurungqash Town 玉龍喀什／玉龙喀什 (Yùlóngkāshí) and 古勒巴格 (Gǔlèbāgé) to be listed as located in "Hotan prefecture" and "Kashgar prefecture" on Wiktionary. That's not the way China writes it. That's not the way America writes it. It's the way Wiktionary and Wikipedia wants to force on us. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:16, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I am going to start doing this: [2]. Let me know if there are any problems. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:29, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I personally prefer capitalizing the administrative unit (at least for locations in China). I'm not sure why the automatic display for {{place}} puts it lowercase. That said, no one is forcing anything. It's just a stylistic choice that some editors have made here and at Wikipedia. If there's no consensus as to minor details like this, I think there can be some degree of variability with this. I don't think there are hard rules on such things, and different style books probably recommend different things. I'm personally okay with your edits, but you might want to discuss this more widely, like on the template's talk page or WT:BP. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:10, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

We sent you an e-mail

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You can see my explanation here.

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離不開

Hi Justin. Have you heard the pronunciation lìbùkāi? I came across it online and was wondering whether it might be a variant in Taiwan. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:05, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Do you have a link to that? I don't think I've heard of this before. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:08, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I first came across it on Google Translate which transcribes it as lìbùkāi (though the audio is líbùkāi) and I saw sporadic hits on Google. I also found the transcription in the 譯典通英漢雙向字典. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I wonder if all these are errors that come from the same source (probably 譯典通). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:36, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Makes sense. I thought it might have been an idiosyncratic Taiwan reading like Fàguó or something. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:46, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Well, Guoyu Cidian only has líbùkāi and doesn't mention any variant pronunciation. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I see. Thanks mate. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:43, 30 September 2020 (UTC)