User talk:Sarri.greek/2023

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Sarri.greek ♫

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2023

Happier New Year ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 01:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

οραματίζομαι

Hello! I'm translating the poetry of Μαρία Πολυδούρη at the moment, and she uses it in that sense. Oddly, in some Greek-English dictionaries it's the main sense given (e.g., the Μέγα Ελληνο-Αγγλικόν Λεξικόν (Εκδόσεις: Ελευθερουδάκης]). Bibliosporias (talk) 14:55, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Declension changes

Dear @Sarri.greek — of course we must represent Greek as she is (and not as the books say). Please keep on with such advice.   — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:08, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Saltmarsh for giving the 'green light'. The singular genitives -εως (also some others) are expected in set phrases but in normal speech they are quite dated by now (or ultra conservative). I saw your change to the similar αντισφαίριση.Template. I will do the same for δύναμη (dýnami) and its only.singular counterpart.A!! you have done it!!!

I have checked all declensions for another note= and there isn't (in case it was stating the same comment) Thank you!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 11:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Hellenistic Koine Greek

Hi @Sarri.greek! Out of curiosity, I though that Koine Greek and Hellenistic Greek were synonymous, yet I see many entries with "Hellenistic" being manually linked before the language code "Koine Greek". What does it imply? Catonif (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Salve @Catonif. Yes, they are synonymous. The 'ellenistico' is not needed, because in English, "Koine" or in Italian "w:it:Koinè", always means the common language of Hellenistic times. I confess: for a greek native speaker, koine or Koine κοινή (koiní) could mean either Hellenistic koine (Koine), or Neohellenic koine (Standard Modern Greek). You caught me using the greek term in English. But sometimes I do it consciously, because many readers might not know what 'Koine' is. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Oh I see, thank you. We have the 'Koine Greek' as a link to Wikipedia, which might solve some people's doubts, but if our current terminology really is ambiguous, and if there's consensus, we could change the name of grc-koi from "Koine Greek" to "Hellenistic Greek" (though maybe that would go against modern publications?). In any case, I think we should avoid having both adjectives. Catonif (talk) 19:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

ΟΚ @Catonif, I promise not to use them together. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 19:24, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Broken redirect

Hi, I see you created and modified απόγαιον, which is now a broken redirect (i.e. it redirects to a page that does not exist). Do you know what page it should redirect to? Thanks, — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 22:01, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

O my! I just saw this note. @ExcarnateSojourner I apologise for not responding for so long. If I remember well, it was a matter of diacritics (to ἀπόγαιον). Thank you and sorry!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 16:25, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

• @Sarri.greek No worries! It appears it has been fixed. Thanks. — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 18:29, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Medieval Greek

@Sarri.greek My goodness me, coming back after a couple of days I find so much text! I will say something there if you like. (By-the-by: I had always imagined Byz-el was a subset of Med-el).
Something along the lines of: it's up to us to define what we mean by Medieval Greek (whichever dates we pick will be criticised someone) and be prepared to back up that definition. One source I read a couple of days ago (I can't find it again) had medieval Greek ending in the 1700s. Archaising etc complicate matters further. I'll stop as I'm almost venturing beyond my competence !   — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh. about this Med.discussion To use a historical term relating e.g. to an empire, for a language is nowadyas, -i think- considered wrong, not neutral (labelling, and associating, here, with very negative connatations too. Medieval Greek was the Byz.Empire's language, but also at Venetian and Frankish occupied areas. As English is GB but also US. Languages do not belong to countries. I cannot understand, why everyone thinks that the old term should not be considered by now unscientific, contralinguistic. Nowadays everyone says Beijing, not Peking and Mumbai, not Bombay because the contemporary trend is to respect the endonyms being politically correct. Languages: 'Lapon' is now considered a faux pas. One should say Sami. Not Farsi but Persian, and so on. Thank you for your care Hope you are having a good time with the children! :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh As for MedGr as an independent language section: if the publication of the 2019 Cambridge Grammar 4 vols. DOI - intro cannot persuade them, what can I say to convince them? nothing. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Καλημέρα! Αρχικά θα ήθελα να ζητήσω συγγνώμη για την παρατεταμένη μου απουσία από το βικιλεξικό, προσπαθώ τελευταία να επανέλθω έστω και με μειωμένο ρυθμό. Περί του συμβάντος τούτου, είναι τουλάχιστον απογοητευτική η απόκριση των άλλων χρηστών, ιδίως έχοντας υπόψη ότι οι αρνητικότεροι εξ αυτών συνεισφέρουν ελάχιστα στα Ελληνικά... Το να πετύχουμε την αυτονόμηση της gkm φαινόταν πολύ εφικτό αρχικά, και δεν κατάλαβα πλήρως γιατί δεν προχώρησε εφόσον εκφράστηκαν θετικά και οι διαχειριστές. Θα θέλατε να επιχειρήσουμε να ανοίξουμε τη συζήτηση αυτή ξανά; Στο εντωμεταξύ μπορώ να δημιουργήσω κι άλλα λήμματα σαν το ἄθος που αναδεικνύουν το παράλογο του να μην έχουμε ως ξεχωριστή γλώσσα τη Μσν. Ελληνική. Με εκτίμηση, A. T. Galenitis (talk) 10:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

About polytonic entries and Katharevousa

Hello @Sarri.greek, glad to see you back! I'm sorry if I caused some misunderstandings, I thought it might have been a good idea to lemmatise at monotonic spelling even if a word is Katharevousa-only, this way all polytonic entries would just be alternative spellings (even if they were certainly more common). Seemed more consistent, but I'll stop for now given I see resistence. Similarly I thought "altifying" Katharevousa entries to redirect to their standard modern counterpart would be a good idea, to avoid duplication of etymologies and definitions (we normally do this with other languages treated as "lects" inside of other languages' L2), but I'll stand by your judgement. Catonif (talk) 09:50, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Catonif! No problem: there has been a confusion about monotonic/polytonic pages even at el.wiktionary. The thing is: nowwadays anything, from ancient to medieval, to katharevousa and modern, can, and is, written monotonically (for typografphic reasons) or polytonically (editions up to 1982). To duplicate all hellenic lemmata polytonic+monotonic would just make the number of pages look bigger. Normally, we lemmatize the prototype script; a legitimate and honest principle (with the exception of ancient greek, which used capitals: we use lowercase for various reasons, according to the tradition of alexandrian grammarians).

Also, especially about Katharevousa, is is not a dialect, it was an artificial formal written language, up to 1976. (Alternative is for Standard Modern Greek alternatives, not for 'other languages' Readers might think it is usable.). Apart from using up thousands of ancient words, it created neologisms which might interest us to lemmatize in Etymologies (like ἀερολιμήν -no need to do it in monotonic too, it is found automatically at SearchBox-, τηλεόρασις = τηλεόραση (tileórasi)) which passed to Modern Greek with standard suffixes and declensions.‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 10:12, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Ok, thanks. By "lemmatize the prototype script", you mean we should lemmatise Katharevousa entries as polytonic and Demotic ones as monotonic? That's a good principle, but I fear it may lead to inconsistencies and duplication, as it did. I know Katharevousa is not a dialect, what I meant is it is treated under =Greek=. This leads to some confusion, for example άπαξ λεγόμενον (ápax legómenon) claims to be a Katharevousa entry (in the label), but says to be "from Katharevousa". The same thing happened at ἀγυιά. This is why I used labels like "originally Katharevousa, now formal/etc.", and thought to (1) lemmatise all =Greek=, Katharevousa included, as monotonic, (2) handle Katharevousa as no more than a label. That's what the label "originally" is used for, cross-linguistically at least: when a word gets borrowed from a variant of a language into other variants, in this case Katharevousa → (formal/humorous) Demotic. Catonif (talk) 10:47, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Catonif. The titles Ancient Medieval Modern for Greekor other, indicate periods of time, not languages. Different languages, idioms etc may occur under each phase. The handling of Katharevousa, is not handled yet in a finitive and docuemtned way at this wiktionary. e.g. with refs to dictionaries compiled before the 1960s, like {{R:Dimitrakos 1964}}. Allogloss editors, read current dictionaries (all monotonic) and think they get the correct scripts, which is false.

I do not know how en.wiktionary operates at defining policies of languages other then English, and I will not enter any more discussions in en.wiktionary about any hellenic language or sciprt any more. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:50, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I see, I'll keep Katharevousa lemmatised as polytonic. For what it's worth, language policies are usually dictated in their about page, like WT:ALA or WT:AOTA, usually dictated by editing community's consensus, although WT:AEL just gives seemlingly irrelevant info. Thank you for your time! Catonif (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2023 (UTC)