Wiktionary

User:Sarri.greek/notes

< User:Sarri.greek

Sarri.greek • talk — ref - abbr - audio - notes - nouns - verbs - αβγό • αἴρω/αἱρῶ • Τ' αστέρι του βοριά (song)
CAT • @en • @el — fonts • test • test1 • vern.lab • verbs.test • tAr • T1·a • T3, T4 • menu

errata edit

Liddell-Scott edit

Problems at editions of Liddell-Scott.

λέγω edit

λέγω (légō), which λέγω? & the ety of λέσχη (léskhē) at older versions of Liddell-Scott. Some older Greek dictionaries copy a mistake of pre-1940 editions with an incorrect sense "I put someone to sleep" for λέγω.

Was λέγω1 a typographic error of λέχω(cfLOGEION) (similar content)? Or was it a wrong etymology? It was a wrong etymology. [also cf wikt:en:Talk:λέσχη, ety.links at wikt:el:Συζήτηση:λέσχη].Compare:
[the Middle Liddell as in https://logeion.uchicago.edu/λέγω with no λέγω1 to λέγω1@perseus.tufts.edu & λέγω2@perseus.tufts.edu]

I little different in {{R:LSJ}} of 1940, but still with λέγω.a. [Compare the LSJ as in https://logeion.uchicago.edu/λέγω with no λέγω(A) to λέγω(A)@perseus.tufts.edu A.lay, pres. erroneously inferred from λέξομαι, ἔλεκτο, etc.; v. λέχομαι. & λέγω(B)@perseus.tufts.edu]


Wwe see the mistake λέγω="I put someone to sleep" at

  • Dictionary Λίντελ-Σκοτ, Greek translation of {{R:Middle Liddell}}, online @greek-language.gr
    Mistakes are copied from the printed#LSK based on {{R:Middle Liddell}} of 1889
    • lemma λέγω has A, B, C senses, but λέγω.Α like λέχω (see identical content at Bailly2020 as in λέχω@LOGEION)
    • lemma λέσχη connects to λέγω.C. (Ι talk), which is wrong [there is no such info in any dictionary], when probably they meant λέγω.Α. = the correct is λέχω. (or it is just a mistaken ety)
      correct ety here
  • Dictionary LSK Λίντελ-Σκοτ-Κωνσταντινίδης [Liddell-Scott-Konstantinidis] printed Greek translation + suppl. / Online = the above #Λίντελ
  • Stamatakos 1972 ανατύπωση 1999 notes, page 574, that the etymology of λέσχη from λέγω (a place for talking) is not accepted unanimously


 

etychain edit

Proposal Module:etymon Etymological trees, designed by Ioaxxere, Wiktionary:Votes/2024-04/Allowing etymology trees on entries
Talks: Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2024/March#Wiktionary_really_needs_structured_etymology, repl. Benwing2 et al.
Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2024/March#New_design
Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2024/March#Feedback_on_proposed_label_designs

The problem: Put a lemma in ALL the etymological categories of ALL its ancestors, when its actual Etymology states only ONE immediate step. All the others are written at THEIR lemmata. At the moment (2024), this is done by hand with template {{dercat}} and {{root}} manually. The problem is, that the editor might be unaware of all the ancestors' etymologies.

Proposal
Make repository of etychains.

  • Etychains are multipositional categorising templates. They put in Categories every lemma which is included in an etychain.
  • No need of {{dercat}} in every lemma of every language.

Assumed:

  • 1 Principle "do not repeat information".
  • 2 Principle "says who". refs for every step of etymology.
  • 3 There is a repository of etychains
  • template {etychain|1=about this word|2, 3, ... ety steps}

Etychain is the reverse sequence of 'descwrite' (or, descwrite is produced automatically as the reverse of etychain)

  • template {descrite|1=about this word|2=descendant} Write at Descendants. If section or lang.Sector do not exist, open them. The Descendants full tree appears at the 1st donor. Elsewhere: see at...

Etychains are not intended for morphological categorizations.
word-creation.morphological analysis and surface.morphological analysis produce different Categories.

Examples for etychain multipositional etymology Categories

1.
At page aaa editor writes Etymology < {bor|el|fr|fff} < {der|el|la|lala}. Getting messages:

  • fff Etymology already exists or please update it.
  • aaa, fff etychain does not exist. Please write it.

Or, ... if this is not possible, gets the message:

  • Please update etymologies and etychains for the languages in this Etymology.

_a. Administrator stops the Etymology at step 1 (moves {der|el|la|lala} and its ref at fff page).
_b. Updates pages fff and lala.
_c. etychain is written:
{etychain|el:aaa:bor|fr:fff} This:

  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms borrowed from French
  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms derived from French
  • {descwrite|fr:fff|el:aaa:bor} = Go to fff#French, open Descendants if not exist and write it.


2.
Page fff gets Etymology {inh|fr|frm|mmm} < {der|fr|la|lala}. Getting messages:

  • mmm Etymology does not exist. Please write it.
  • fff, lala, exist at etychain repository. Please update.

Updating etychain as:
{etychain|el:aaa:bor|fr:fff:inh|frm:mmm|la:lala|ine-pro:*xx} This updates Categories for ALL members:

  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms borrowed from French
  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms derived from French
  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms derived from Middle French
  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms derived from Latin
  • puts aaa at Cat:Greek terms derived from Proto-Indo-European
  • puts fff at Cat:French terms inherited from Middle French
  • puts fff at Cat:French terms derived from Middle French
  • puts fff at Cat:French terms derived from Latin
  • puts fff at Cat:French terms derived from Proto-Indo-European
  • puts mmm at Cat:Middle French terms derived from Latin
  • puts mmm at Cat:Middle French terms derived from Proto-Indo-European
  • puts lala at Cat:Latin terms derived from Proto-Indo-European
  • adds all the {descwrite|ine-pro:xx|la:lala} {descwrite|la:lala|frm:mmm} {descwrite|frm:mmm|fr:fff:inh}... etc

3.
But someone adds at Etymology of lala < {inh|la|itc-pro|iii}. Getting messages

  • iii Etymology does not exist. Please write it.
  • lala, exist at etychain repository. Please update.

{etychain|el:aaa:bor|fr:fff:inh|frm:mmm|la:lala:inh|itc-pro:iii|ine-pro:*xx}

  • for every step, will be added: XX terms derived from Proto-Italic
  • {descwrite}s will also be automatically updated. The desctree full appears at the ine-pro page.


 

Reference templates edit

The naming e.g. Category:Ancient Greek reference templates should have been, more accurately [??request renaming]

Category:Reference templates for Ancient Greek

naming the lemma language, not the exit.language of translations and interpretations, which can be in any language. As it is now, it implies that the reference sources are ancient (sometimes, they are).


References (and quotation-references) inform the reader of where we found information or any text.
It is the only way for readers to check the credibility of the information. To make sure that we have not 'made it up'. In rare cases where en.wiktionary is responsible for a crucial piece of information (etymology, a rare sense), this must be marked visibly. [??request verification]
A citation or quotation-ref may be used:

  • exactly after the piece of information/text - with tags <ref>...</ref>
  • or at a "Further reading" or any other list of references and sources.

The house style of en.wiktionary is [??request verification. Are cite- and quote templates designed for specific Style??]

  • for refs (of dictionaries), APA style.w ([1]). But we write the full given name of an author if possible instead of initials.
    (Surname, Given name. (0000). Work. City:Publisher.)
    Also, we often place lemma or lemma.link at the begining (see #lemma and all Templates at Category:Ancient Greek reference templates)
  • for quotations and Quotation templates: MLA stylew
    (Given name Surname, Work, City:Publisher, 0000.)
    [??or mixed styles?? request verification].

Wikipedias, unfortunately, use a mixture of various styles like MLA, APA and others (w:en:Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Citation_style).

We avoid break-lines. The Style Guides for printed books, have hyphens and spaces which would be better avoided at internet pages. It can be done with special characters, or it can be done with easy-solution.

  • dates 2000-03-31 Easy nobreak: 2000.03.31.
  • page (space) 31. Easy nobreak: p.31. (no space)
  • ISBN: (space) ...OOO-OO-OOO with hyphens, cannot be helped, Unfortunately, template {{nobr}} (nobreak) does not take care of hyphens. If &x8209; is used (no-breaking hyphen) the ISBN will not be functional.

About en.wikt house rules, see:

Lemma and pagenumber edit

For our citations we need to inform the reader about our dictionary-source for

  • the lemma (entry) of a dictionary. It must always be mentioned or linked if different from our pagename.
  • and/or the pagenumber where we found it, and/or the chapter of a book, and/or a volume of a dictionary, of a book (perhaps at some platform)

At most reference templates (example: Cat:Ancient Greek reference templates), en.wiktionary places the lemma‑link at the beginning of the citation, unlike the style in printed media, placing it at the end of data. Principle: "Put first to click immediately." At our data‑description of the book/dictionary many links are included for author, work, etc. If our lemma‑link were placed at the end, readers would have to go through many links to reach the lemma link.
The pagenumber, on the other hand, is avoided whenever the lemma or text is found without difficulty (e.g. via section §). It is needed when pagination might differ from edition to edition and there is no other way to find it. Especially for a...z entires of dictionaries, pagenumber is not needed.

IF text is mentioned (Prefaces, or other notes), we place its pagenumber at the end of data, sometimes at a line below.


How can we do it?

  • With templates {{cite-book}} {{cite-journal}} if it is a citation
  • or the equivalents {{quote-book}} {{quote-journal}} or simple {{quote}} if there is text quoted at a quotation.
  • Manually, with a simple text of the data-description of our source.
  • Or, make a new Template for our ref, if it is going to be used many times.

No link edit

  • with {{cite-book}} {{cite-journal}}
    optionally show page or pages, placed at the end: parameter |page= |pages=
    optionally show lemma, placed at the end: parameter |entry=
  • or simple text
    preferably show lemma or pagename and/or pagenumber(s) placed at the begnning, to be similar with the rest of the referneces in our reflist
    Here, the named parameters may also be numbered (since we only "show| but we do not "link"). +space after it

|&nbsp;|Sarri.greek/notes&nbsp;|, .|Sarri.greek/notes.

Examples

Link lemma edit

Link lemma or pagename a.automatically or b.manually + show or not show a pagenumber.

  • lemma word = the PAGENAME or a different parameter (numbered or named) is the choice or other word

Here,

  • the numbered parameters are links (for 1 for lemma, optionally 2 for pagename)
  • the named parameters are to "show" a different word instead of the lemma-or-pagename.


Automatically: pagename. Change it with 1st position |1=. Change what is shown with |lemma= 

[https://...{{urlencode:{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}} {{{2|{{{lemma|{{{entry|{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}}}}}}}}}]
says
[ open link
If position#1 is added link 1 else, link PAGENAME
If position#2 or lemma= or entry= is added show it, else show 1. If that is not added, show PAGENAME.
] close link

Examples

what is ugly hacks? edit

Many en.wikt ref templates have this: {{#expr:{{#invoke:ugly hacks|match|{{{page|{{{pages}}}}}}|[0-9]+}}

  • It is placed at Module:ugly hacks, see function "match"
  • what does it say? whatttt are these nubmers?
what is ugly hacks?

In reference Templates we find:
{{#expr:{{#invoke:ugly hacks|match|{{{page|{{{pages}}}}}}|[0-9]+}}
This, calls Module:ugly hacks, function "match" 

function export.match(frame)
	return (mw.ustring.match(frame.args[1] or "", frame.args[2] or ""))
end

It says, translated in wikitext: 

[{{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{{1|}}}|{{PAGENAME}} p.{{#if:{{{2|}}}|{{{2|}}}|{{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{{1|}}}|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}]

in detail....<!--
-->{{#if:{{{1|}}}<!-- suppose there is a 1 ? what is this? a pagenumber or a text?
1 yes if editor adds 1st position
	-->|{{{1|}}}<!-- write it
	-->|{{PAGENAME}}<!-- if not, just write the magic word PAGENAME
-->}}<!-- close 1 link

show the 2nd position - could be named alt= or show= (what is this?)
2 yes if editor adds 1st position
-->{{#if:{{{2|}}}<!-- if  2nd position
	-->|{{{2|}}}<!-- if editor adds a 2nd position (1yes, 2yes), show it
	-->|{{#if:{{{1|}}}<!-- if 1
		-->|{{{1|}}}<!-- if editor has written a 1st position (1yes, 2yes), show it (as well as linking it)
		-->|{{2|}}}<!-- if he has not, (1no, 2no) write his choice2, while linking the magic word PAGENAME
	-->}}<!-- close if2

urlencode edit

A lemma-link: [linkuurl show.page.or.lemma]
When do I need urlencode? Does it create problems?

  • urlencode is a magic word, that replaces spaces and fonts to %... (per cent symbols)
[xxxx{{urlencode:{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}} p.{{{2|{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}}}]
or
[xxxx{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}} p.{{{2|{{{1|{{PAGENAME}}}}}}}}]

Link manually edit

For some sources, it is difficult for templates to provide automatic links. The assistance of the editor is needed. S/he must find the pagenumber or the id of a lemma and add it manually. Examples:

Kinds of linked references edit

Extra parameters edit

Often, I add additional parameters

  • |nolink=1 or |0=-
    Useful for presenting multiple links for the same dictionary/book.
    Also, at Talk pages, where we do not want the long data description.
  • |nodata=1 or |00=-
    Useful for lists, presenting only the data-description of the dictionry/book/platform as at Appendices, and source-lists.

Examples:

  • We also add at the end of data-description the |nodot=1
    Useful, if editor wants to add a comma and notes

V view edit

At wikipedias, we often see V•T•E Example: w:en:Template:Greece topics

  • V = View the template.
  • T = Talk. Go to the Discussion page of the template.
  • E = Edit the template.

Although wiktionaries do not use this V•T•E marking (as in 2023), we would often like the reader to see more details about a reference, or fascilitate editor's job, with a link to the Template.
I have added to some Templates the V, linking to the Template with tooltip: View template for details!

Examples


 

Terms edit

Lexicographical terms from Greek to English, difficult to translate, or Greek-specific (not found at English dictionaries).

  • αρχ. αρχαίος αρχαϊκός αρχαιότροπος English - Greek differences
    archaic αρχαϊκός - archaistic αρχαιότροπος.
    • archaic = a phase before classic or main phase of an ancient period
    • archaic label for a modern language =
    • archaic lable for e.g. Ancient Greek =
    • archaistic = in the fashion of ancient, imitating an ancient (not an archaic) word
  • διαχρονικό δάνειο diachronic borrowing: From an older period of the same language. The term used at {{R:DSMG}} (expalained at the Greek Intro). Revived or reactivated term use at Intro of {{R:Babiniotis 2002}} words Examples: el δημοκρατία (dimokratía), en sibling
  • εσωτερικό δάνειο internal borrowing: Borrowing from the same language, cf διαχρονικό & cf συγχρονικό
  • μεταγενέστερη = cf Κοινή
  • Κοινή Koine Greek marked as 'Later (language)' at dictionaries:
    • μτγν. = el μεταγενέστρη (metagenéstri) = el-kth μεταγενεστέρα f (metagenestéra, adjective, literally “later, subsequent”)
    • sp. = German spätere > spät (“late”) at {{R:grc:Pape}} - Pape abbreviations
      Sp Spätere, Die Zeitbestimmung ergibt entweder der Zusammenhang, oder es sind die Alexandriner und die folgenden Schriftsteller gemeint.
      sp Spätere, Die Zeitbestimmung ergibt entweder der Zusammenhang, oder es sind die Alexandriner und die folgenden Schriftsteller gemeint.
      sp.D = Spätere Dichter. Die Zeitbestimmung ergibt entweder der Zusammenhang, oder es sind die Alexandriner und die folgenden Schriftsteller gemeint.
  • λαϊκότροπο (laïkótropo) < λαϊκότροπος (laïkótropos) = in the style of λαϊκός (laïkós). The difference: λαϊκότροπο is used in Standard, also by learned speakers. But λαϊκό is not. Example:
  • λαϊκό (laïkó) < λαϊκός (laïkós) = literally: of the people. Of the masses. Of the lower classes. Non-learned. See λαϊκότροπο (for difference)
  • συγχρονικό δάνειο synchronic borrowing From a dialect or idiom οφ the same period of the language, it enter Standard. Examples: κοπελιά f (kopeliá) but for males κοπέλι n (kopéli) has remained dialectal, and did not enter koine (Standard).


 

TOC edit

Design for wiktionaries, not wikipedias. e.g. for en.wiktionary.
Are there progammers at en.wikt who could recreate the magic word __TOC__ for the needs of a multisectional page? [notifying MM. Benwing2, This, that and the other]

Precise link en edit

Question at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2024/February#Use_of_T:lang: When do we need precise link with {{l}} to {{l|en|xxx}} instead of common to#top.link [[xxx]] ?

(when does a precise link to host language is needed?)


1) When there is a Translingual sector above English sector. 

if exists at mainspace, at page='xxx' 'Transligual' then instead of [[xxx]] use {{l|en|xxx}}.

Too many L2 edit

2) When the ToC is tooooo long. Solutions:

  • 2a. as in 1)
  • 2b plus/or Design ToCs for multilingual dictionary with many L2 (level2) titles for languages.

TOC hor limit2 edit

wikt:en:Template:User:Sarri.greek/toc2-hor Can someone make it horizontal??? some bullet in between too?


If more than ... languages then use TOC.horizontal.toclimit2, otherwise we get ridiculously long vertical ToCs.

  • example: lemma A currently (2024.02.) with 230 languages (and many others like te, [do]] hide/show as in french wiktionary (compare
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/do?useskin=vector
to French https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/do?useskin=vector (much nicer)
Spanish: https://es.wiktionary.org/wiki/do?useskin=vector

Desired output verical, because that is how people read (not broken columns):

Contents with full stops and bullets?

1.Translingual • 2.English • 3.Acehnese • 4.Acheron • 5.Adzera • 6.Afar • 7.Afrikaans • 8.Albanian • 9.Alekano • 10.Alemannic German • 11.Aleut • 12.Amaimon • 13.Amarasi • 14.Ambrak • 15.Anal • 16.Angami • 17.Ankave • 18.Anuki • 19.Araki • 20.Aromanian • 21.Ashéninka Pajonal • 22.Assiniboine • 23.Atsahuaca • 24.Auhelawa • 25.Avokaya • 26.Awara • 27.Azerbaijani • 28.Balanta-Kentohe • 29.Barai • 30.Bari • 31.Basque • 32.Bavarian • 33.Beja • 34.Bemba • 35.Blagar • 36.Blin • 37.Brahui • 38.Breton • 39.Busa • 40.Catalan • 41.Central Franconian • 42.Ch'orti' • 43.Chachi • 44.Chamorro • 45.Chechen • 46.Cheyenne • 47.Chinese • 48.Chiwere • 49.Choctaw • 50.Cofán • 51.Comanche • 52.Comox • 53.Corsican • 54.Crimean Tatar • 55.Cypriot Arabic • 56.Czech • 57.Dagbani • 58.Danish • 59.Dinka • 60.Domari • 61.Dutch • 62.Duun • 63.Egyptian • 64.Elfdalian • 65.Esan • 66.Esperanto • 67.Estonian • 68.Ewe • 69.Faroese • 70.Fe'fe' • 71.Fijian • 72.Finnish • 73.Fon • 74.French • 75.Friulian • 76.Fula • 77.Ga • 78.Gagauz • 79.Galician • 80.German • 81.Gilbertese • 82.Gimi (Goroka) • 83.Greenlandic • 84.Haida • 85.Haitian Creole • 86.Halkomelem • 87.Hausa • 88.Hawaiian • 89.Hungarian • 90.Hunsrik • 91.Hupa • 92.Icelandic • 93.Ido • 94.Igbo • 95.Inari Sami • 96.Indonesian • 97.Ingrian • 98.Interlingua • 99.Inupiaq • 100.Irish • 101.Italian • 102.Jarai • 103.Juǀ'hoan • 104.Kabyle • 105.Kaingang • 106.Kakabai • 107.Kalo Finnish Romani • 108.Kanuri • 109.Karakalpak • 110.Karelian • 111.Kari'na • 112.Kashaya • 113.Kashubian • 114.Kawésqar • 115.Khakas • 116.Kikuyu • 117.Kobon • 118.Krio • 119.Kwak'wala • 120.Lakota • 121.Latgalian • 122.Latin • 123.Latvian • 124.Lingala • 125.Lithuanian • 126.Livonian • 127.Lou • 128.Lower Sorbian • 129.Luxembourgish • 130.Malagasy • 131.Malay • 132.Maltese • 133.Mampruli • 134.Mankanya • 135.Manx • 136.Maori • 137.Mapudungun • 138.Marba • 139.Marshallese • 140.Maskelynes • 141.Massachusett • 142.Mayoyao Ifugao • 143.Mecayapan Nahuatl • 144.Mohawk • 145.Moore • 146.Muinane • 147.Muong • 148.Nauruan • 149.Navajo • 150.Nisga'a • 151.Noon • 152.Nootka • 153.Northern Kurdish • 154.Northern Sami • 155.Norwegian Bokmål • 156.Norwegian Nynorsk • 157.Nuer • 158.Nupe • 159.O'odham • 160.Occitan • 161.Okanagan • 162.Paraguayan Guaraní • 163.Plautdietsch • 164.Polish • 165.Portuguese • 166.Q'eqchi • 167.Rohingya • 168.Romani • 169.Romanian • 170.Ronga • 171.Rotokas • 172.Rotuman • 173.Saafi-Saafi • 174.Saanich • 175.Samoan • 176.Samogitian • 177.Sango • 178.Scots • 179.Scottish Gaelic • 180.Serbo-Croatian • 181.Serer • 182.Seri • 183.Shilluk • 184.Shona • 185.Silesian • 186.Skolt Sami • 187.Slovak • 188.Slovene • 189.Somali • 190.Southern Sami • 191.Spanish • 192.Squamish • 193.Swedish • 194.Tagalog • 195.Tahitian • 196.Tatar • 197.Tetum • 198.Tigon Mbembe • 199.Tlingit • 200.Tongan • 201.Tonkawa • 202.Tuareg • 203.Tundra Nenets • 204.Turkish • 205.Turkmen • 206.Tyap • 207.Ubykh • 208.Udihe • 209.Upper Sorbian • 210.Uzbek • 211.Venda • 212.Veps • 213.Vietnamese • 214.Vilamovian • 215.Volapük • 216.Võro • 217.Votic • 218.Wakhi • 219.Walloon • 220.Welsh • 221.West Frisian • 222.Winnebago • 223.Xârâcùù • 224.Xhosa • 225.Yámana • 226.Yele • 227.Yoruba • 228.Zarma • 229.Zazaki • 230.Zulu

For few languages edit

TOC ver hor edit

1. English - 1.1. Etymology 1.2. Pronunciation 1.3. Adverb 1.4. References
2. French - 2.1. Etymology 2.2. Pronunciation 2.4. Adverb 2.4. Usage notes 2.5. Further reading and so on

TOC hor ver edit

(example as in lemma σκληρός) - el.wikt.test wikt:el:Module:toc-test wikt:el:Template:toc-test, examples of how it looks at wikt:el:Template:test-ol

Needed number 2. 2.1. etc Fully numbered

Contents          
  1. Ancient Greek
    1. Etymology
    2. Pronunciation
    3. Adjective
      1. Inflection
      2. Antonyms
      3. Derived terms
      4. Descendants
    4. Further reading
  1. Greek
    1. Etymology
    2. Pronunciation
    3. Adjective
      1. Declension
      2. Related terms
    4. Further reading

Also see tests at wikt:el:Βικιλεξικό:Βικιδημία/2023Vector/testSarri



 
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