Welcome! edit

Welcome edit

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary!

I'm happy you finally created an account (I'm assuming you are the IP that has been working on Ternate for a while now; please correct me if I'm incorrect). Here are some tips I have already mentioned, but maybe you haven't received them:

  • Some headers get an L3 (three equal signs at each side); These include "Etymology", "Pronunciation", "Lemma" and "References". The latter three may be an L4 only if there are multiple etymologies for one entry. Compare the following: Tokelauan kāgalū and paepae.
  • Entries should not have an empty Etymology section, unless there are multiple etymologies. So, kokahu is not okay. You could either delete the whole header altogether (which I would recommend with Ternate), or use {{rfe}}. If there are multiple etymologies, that's another story, the sections are used to divide parts of the entry.

Please do approach me if you have any further questions! Happy editing! Thadh (talk) 10:23, 20 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

Hello! Thanks :) And yupp, it's been me doing the Ternate entries. So, I've been leaving the etymology sections in only because I expect to fill them at some point, but I guess I could just get rid of them until I'm able to fill them. As for questions, can you help me with the template for Ternate nouns? I tried to make it work :( but in Jawi entries, the Rumi script looks really weird. Alexlin01 (talk) 18:53, 22 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Also! Could we maybe get a nice Jawi font for Ternate entries? Like the one they use in the Wikipedia article for Jawi? Alexlin01 (talk) 18:54, 22 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Hey, see my edit to {{tft-noun}}. I think it makes sense to create a similar template for every part of speech, but you can just copy the noun template and adjust the PoS in the first parameter. For fonts, to be honest, I don't know. I think you'll need to approach Arabic-script editors for that, maybe they can tell you more (@Fenakhay comes to mind), but I honestly don't know how those are handled. Good luck, and make sure to ask any questions you might still have! Thadh (talk) 19:54, 22 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Thadh Thank you! It works perfectly now. And if the font thing doesn't work that's totally fine! I just saw it on the Jawi article and thought it would look really good (esp. since old Ternate documents use the same hand). Alexlin01 (talk) 20:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

Ternate fokifoki edit

Hi Alexlin01! Great work with your Ternate lemmata! I have a question about fokifoki, which is glossed in Hayami-Allen (2001) only as 'k.o. tree'. In Ternate and Manado Malay, foki-foki means eggplant, and has been borrowed into many languages of "my" area (Sulawesi) with the same meaning. Do you know a way to find out the exact meaning of fokifoki so we can add it here? –Austronesier (talk) 16:54, 29 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Austronesier Hi! Thanks for asking :) The term almost definitely means eggplant (I've gone ahead and added it as such despite Hayami-Allen's hedging). I was able to confirm it with my favorite source, which also has been translated to English (thank goodness, because I can't with that much Dutch). Let me know if those links don't work tho! Alexlin01 (talk) 21:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Oh here's another interesting source. It should link directly to the discussion on fokifoki, but if it doesn't, just search within "fockefocky". I have no idea what they mean by Indian, unless they mean Moluccans. Alexlin01 (talk) 21:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
Oh, by the way, since you've mentioned language proficiency, have you thought about creating a {{Babel}}? You don't need to, I just thought maybe you didn't know it exists. Great work on the entries by the way! Thadh (talk) 22:42, 29 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Thadh: Sure let me try it! Alexlin01 (talk) 02:25, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the links to the sources by De Clercq and Waruno! With Hayami-Allen and De Clerq you have a huge corpus that you can use here. Btw, 'Indian' Indiër in the Bontius quote is based on the old name East Indies. Since you have added a number of North Halmahera proto-forms, maybe we can ask to get a familiy code for North Halmahera, plus a code for Proto-North Halmahera. As of now, there only is Category:West Papuan languages, i.e. a family code for the higher and not generally accepted macrofamily. @Thadh: I'm not sure, is this something to ask for in the Beer Parlour, or is there another place for it?

I have thought of adding some Tobelo data, but I am still struggling with the orthography (especially the vowels). –Austronesier (talk) 07:02, 30 September 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Austronesier: You could try either WT:BP (for regular family division proposals) or WT:RFM (if you also need to merge/split some language codes). There shouldn't be problems if you both agree, I don't think there are many other active Papuan languages editors. Thadh (talk) 09:19, 30 September 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Austronesier: Of course! :) Yeah, I'm planning on just going through the dictionaries one after the other. I'm not really sure how the family codes work, but if you mean that North Halmaheran languages aren't yet a recognized group on here, then yeah we deff should get a code! And yeah, I've been using the reconstructions by Holton and Klamer, but honestly I don't like them very much. For example, they have fikiri ("to think") reconstructed at the PNH level, and I highly doubt that to be possible, given everything about the region's history, and that just makes me suspicious about all their other reconstructions. Also here's the resource I pulled for the Tobelo cognate for fokifoki, but I guess I'm not sure how good it really is. Alexlin01 (talk) 02:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Here is the full list of languages per Ethnologue:
  • Galela [gbi]
  • Gamkonora [gak]
  • Ibu [ibu]
  • Kao [kax]
  • Laba [lau]
  • Loloda [loa]
  • Modole [mqo]
  • Pagu [pgu]
  • Sahu [saj]
  • Tabaru [tby]
  • Ternate [tft]
  • Tidore [tvo]
  • Tobelo [tlb]
  • Tutugil [tuj]
  • Waioli [wli]
  • West Makian [mqs]
Please check, if everything is ok, I will proceed in WT:BP as suggested by Thadh.
Holton & Klamer cite an article by Wada. I have requested for it at Wikipedia Library, and can share it with you once I have a copy. I also agree that *fikiri is dubious, and maybe also *ɲawa, *bicara, *etoŋ and *ɲaɲi. OTOH *gate and *siwo look like early loans that entered at the proto-language stage.
Thanks for the Tobelo source! I have material from Holton and Hueting, and also a PDF of parts from the Bible translation – all use a different spelling for the palatal lateral. I'm looking forward to work on other NH languages. –Austronesier (talk) 09:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Austronesier: I compared the list with what they have on Wikipedia, and it looks good to me. Apparently, Ibu is already extinct.
Oh yeah, I kinda just disregarded *bicara, out of hand. I doubt there's enough information (yet) to know if those are early loans that disseminated, or if they were borrowed later into all the languages anyways.
Awesome! Once I (finally) finish all the Ternate material, I'll probably take a look at Tidore, and so these other resources will be really good for etymology. Thanks! :D Alexlin01 (talk) 17:03, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Also! Wikipedia lists Gamkonora, Ibu, and Waioli as dialects of Sahu, Tugutil as a dialect of Tobelo, Laba as a dialect of Loloda, and Kao as a (divergent) dialect of Pagu. How should we handle this? Alexlin01 (talk) 17:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Also, Hayami-Allen lists reconstructions for a Proto-Ternate-Tidore on page 216 of the grammar (citing Allen 2000, himself??). Should we include that somehow? Alexlin01 (talk) 17:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
WT has all ISO-coded varieties separately, see here: Wiktionary:List_of_languages. I'm not really happy with the occasional over-splitting of the SIL-folks, but for WT purposes, I think we should just follow the crowd.
As for Ternate-Tidore, I suggest to keep the tree as flat as possible, unless there is a considerable corpus of reconstructions for a non-controversial subgroup. Ternate-Tidore is non-controversial, but the corpus available in print is relatively small. If you see in the course of adding Tidore forms that further sensible and straightforward proto-forms can be produced, we can ask for subgroup code later. Oh, and here is Wada (1980). –Austronesier (talk) 18:09, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Austronesier: Sorry for the late response! All of that sounds good to me. Have you already proposed the family code? Do I need to go support it somewhere? The Ternate-Tidore forms don't seem to have too regular of a correspondence, so I'm not sure how easy it'd be to do any reconstructions, let alone find them in the literature, so we can probably just hold off on it. And, thanks for the Galela material! Alexlin01 (talk) 19:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Don't worry, it's always good not to rush things in a volunteer project like WT. I haven't made the proposal yet. Later or tomorrow, I'll definitely do so. I will mention you, so you will get notified. –Austronesier (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2021/October#Request_for_new_language_family_and_proto-language_codes:_North_Halmahera_/_Proto-North_HalmaheraAustronesier (talk) 07:37, 6 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Thanks! I went ahead and replied, but I didn't really have much to add. Do I need to say anything else? Alexlin01 (talk) 16:21, 6 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

We have the codes now! I have already added etymologies to Galela and Ternate ake, but of course want to leave the joy of creating the first p-NH entry to you (here's how I do Proto-Malayo-Polynesian entries, just as a rough template: Reconstruction:Proto-Malayo-Polynesian/ʀumaq). Note that the asterisk is not used with the reconstructed entry itself, but needed when linking to it via {{inh}} and other templates. –Austronesier (talk) 08:53, 8 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

We got the codes!! And thanks, I'll go ahead and make the entry for *aker. :D Alexlin01 (talk) 19:40, 8 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Austronesier: I made the page! Reconstruction:Proto-North Halmahera/aker, can you check it out to see if I'm missing anything, or just fix it if there's anything wrong? Also, at akere, for Tobelo, it's very angry with me. Can you help? Alexlin01 (talk) 20:16, 8 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
It seems they fixed the Tobelo issue! Alexlin01 (talk) 02:03, 9 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Yes, Tobelo fell through the cracks in the first round, but has been fixed quickly[1]. –Austronesier (talk) 15:54, 9 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
Perfect, thank you! And I just want to check, did I do make the reconstruction page properly? Alexlin01 (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Misspelling edit

@Thadh Hi Thadh! I made a misspelling and I don't know how to get rid of it. پاو is spelled with the p-letter from Persian, and is wrong. ڽاو is spelled with the nya in Jawi, which is what I was looking for. Unfortunately, they look the same in the initial position -__-. Also, how do I pronounce your name? Alexlin01 (talk) 04:13, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

It's okay, I have had my own fair share of misspellings, in various languages and scripts.
About my name: It's pretty fluent. Originally, it was meant to be [θað], but it seems most people pronounce it [θæð], and it sorta grew on me. Another option is pronounce it in a Gaelic manner ([ha]). I wouldn't appreciate aspirated consonants though... Thadh (talk) 05:55, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure my message on the now deleted page came through, so I'll repeat it here: Misspellings, misinterpretations and the like can be speedy-deleted using the template {{d}} or, alternatively, and only if it makes sense, moved using the "Move" function. The latter will result in a redirect, so it's not always desirable.
If someone else created an entry you suspect isn't correct, you should use {{rfd}} (for deletion) or {{rfv}} (for verification) and post a discussion at the appropriate forum, either WT:RFD or WT:RFV. The former is usually used for terms that are misspellings or written with the wrong script or something of the like, the latter is used to dispute the existence of a word or (in the case of {{rfv-sense}}) sense. See the template documentations for more. Hope this answers your question! Thadh (talk) 09:57, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply
@Thadh: Thank you for taking care of that! That really clears up it all up for me :) I had been pronouncing your name with the æ in my head, and so I figured I'd ask, just to be sure. Alexlin01 (talk) 16:54, 1 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Ternate domains edit

Manado definitely was one of them, and also the Banggai kingdom (Banggai Islands and the Luwuk area on the Sulawesi mainland) in Central Sulawesi. The languages of the Saluan-Banggai subgroup have a number of loanwords from Ternate. Austronesier (talk) 19:25, 6 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Austronesier: Thanks! Yeah I just wanted to kind of identify possible regions/languages that would have been influenced by Ternate or Tidore. And feel free to just edit/add to the list on my main page whenever you come across anything! Alexlin01 (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Ficus benjamina vs. Urostigma edit

re: your Usage notes at waringi- Ficus benjamina has been known as Urostigma benjamina in the past, as evidenced by the original publication of both species in Urostigma in 1847, so "Urostigma" and "Ficus benjamina" are not mutually exclusive. I don't know if Hayami-Allen's identification as F. benjamina is correct, but there's no reason to assume that de Clercq's reference to "Urostigma" had to be a reference to Ficus microcarpa just because it said "Urostigma". Chuck Entz (talk) 02:36, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Chuck Entz Hi! And thank you! I didn't even know. Mostly (with the plant/animal species), I haven't had much trouble, but some of them are very hard to figure out. Specifically, de Clercq writes een boom, Urostigma sp., "a tree, the Urostigma species", and Hayami-Allen has banyan, Ficus benjamina L., listing her sources as Fortgens (both 1917 and 1930) and the Kamus Ternate-Indonesia. Based on this, what do you think I should put for the entry? Alexlin01 (talk) 22:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply
Also! I wrote all that stuff under "Usage notes", mostly just following what I've seen in other entries. Is that appropriate here, or is there a better way to include that information? Alexlin01 (talk) 22:16, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

Tabaru edit

In case you don't have access to JSTOR, here's an OA link to Fortgens' article: https://brill.com/view/journals/bki/84/1/article-p301_5.xml. –Austronesier (talk) 17:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Austronesier: Thank you! Unfortunately, that's a lot of Dutch. There wouldn't happen to be an English (or even Indonesian) translation would there? Alexlin01 (talk) 20:07, 28 November 2021 (UTC)Reply

ee > e moves edit

Hi! May I ask, why did you move these (nee > ne; gee > ge)? We usually let alternative spellings or forms stay, unless they aren't verifiable. If this is a matter of standardised spelling variants, you should keep the -ee variants and tag them with {{alternative spelling of}} (or {{alternative form of}}). Thadh (talk) 16:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Thadh: Hello! Hayami-Allen strictly writes out all long vowels in her dictionary, and I had just been going off of that originally. But, Ternate in the Roman script is really hard to come across, and what examples I have seen don't indicate vowel length (or at least, not regularly). The Struktur Bahasa Ternate (pg. 19, and throughout the example sentences) uses "ne" and "ge" as well, and the Kamus Bahasa Tidore makes no use of long vowels at all. I've only seen "nee" and "gee" used in this one blog post online, but never anywhere official or even "semi-official". If I do tho, I'll go back and add them as alternative spellings. Alexlin01 (talk) 19:27, 26 February 2022 (UTC)Reply
Okay, thanks for clearing this up! Thadh (talk) 19:38, 26 February 2022 (UTC)Reply

Your interests edit

Hi! I hope it's okay of me to ask you a few questions. I've noticed that you're really keen on Indonesian regional languages, especially those more obscure ones. Are you by any chance a linguist specializing in the East Nusantara region? Or are you just a bit of a nerd? :P If it's the former, I probably shouldn't bother you too much... but if it's the latter, I wonder if there's a way I could contact you, Discord or something. Cheers. Ts123321 (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

@Ts123321: Hi! Haha I'm more of the second, and I'm really just having some fun with the North Halmahera languages, nothing beyond that. Are you also interested in them? Feel free to message me here whenever you like :) Alexlin01 (talk) 03:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
@Ts123321: Also, just made a minor change to your Ternate entry! Thanks for adding it :) :) I just moved it to what we might call its "classical" form and added a few extra things. Also, don't bother adding the Jawi entries (if you'd been considering it) cuz I have to go change them all anyways. Where did you find the Sentani term? Alexlin01 (talk) 03:31, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for responding! Why North Halmahera though? Have you talked to Ternate people on social media or something? Or are you just interested in these from a strictly linguistic perspective? As for the Sentani word, look here. Hope it loads. Ts123321 (talk) 09:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Oh awesome, thanks for the link! And haha no no, I'd found out that Ternate had a pre-Dutch literary tradition and I've sort of fallen down the rabbit hole since then 🤣 Alexlin01 (talk) 15:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
I really wonder, do you not use Discord then? Cause I'd like to chat with you somewhere else if you don't mind. I think I may have some nerd thoughts to share with you, on the East Nusantara region and such. Ts123321 (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Sorry :( I really am happy to talk on here though, for anything! And there are some much more qualified Indonesia/PNG nerds on here for your ideas, I'm really just a dabbler honestly. Alexlin01 (talk) 00:48, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply