Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits

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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

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Requests for deletion and undeletion of foreign entries.

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Requests for verification of foreign entries.

{{rfap}} • {{rfdate}} • {{rfdef}} • {{rfd-redundant}} • {{rfe}} • {{rfex}} • {{rfi}} • {{rfp}}

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

This page is designed to discuss moves (renaming pages) mergers and splits. Its aim is to take the burden away from the beer parlour and requests for deletion where these issues were previously listed. Please note that uncontroversial page moves to correct typos, missing characters etc. should not be listed here, but moved directly using the move function.

  • Appropriate: Renaming categories, templates, Wiktionary pages, appendices, rhymes and occasionally entries. Merging or splitting temp categories, templates, Wiktionary pages, appendices, rhymes.
  • Out of scope: Merging entries which are alternative forms or spellings or synonyms such as color/colour or traveled/travelled. Unlike Wikipedia, we don’t redirect in these sort of situations. Each spelling gets its own page, often employing the templates {{alternative spelling of}} or {{alternative form of}}.
  • Tagging pages: To tag a page, you can use the general template {{rfm}}, as well as one of the more specific templates {{move}}, {{merge}} and {{split}}.

Note that discussions for splitting, merging, and renaming languages are often also held here, and should be archived to WT:LTD when closed.

Unresolved requests from before January 2014Edit

Category:Arabic numeralsEdit

This name is misleading. Based on how our categories are named, you would expect this to contain terms in the Arabic language, but it doesn't. It should probably be named something like Category:Hindu-Arabic numerals, or something else than 'numerals'. —CodeCat 11:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, Hindu-Arabic isn't ideal, but it's a whole lot better. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
I noticed we also have Category:Roman numerals. These categories have no indication of language, presumably because they are translingual. But I'm not sure if Category:Translingual Hindi-Arabic numerals sounds any better. —CodeCat 15:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

If it's translingual, would it include ,,,,,,,,, or ١,٢,٣,٤,٥,٦,٧,٨,٩,٠? Chuck Entz (talk) 13:21, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I support, it’s a more correct name. — Ungoliant (Falai) 16:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Category:English terms with obsolete sensesEdit

As per the discussion in the Beer Parlor, I suggest that this category be reserved only for words that are not fully obsolete (i.e., that contain at least one current sense), and that all words that have only obsolete senses (i.e., fully obsolete words) be moved back to Category:English obsolete terms. (I think it would be better to, as CodeCat suggested, simply leave non-fully obsolete words uncategorized, which would imply eventually deleeting Category:English terms with obsolete senses, but I'm OK with leaving it there for partially obsolete words if others want that.) --Pereru (talk) 08:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

SupportCodeCat 02:26, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
I'd like to support it, but not if there is no implementation scheduled. I would not be happy if this was our policy and two months from now most of the terms that were supposed to be in it were not. We need a dump run to identity the L2 sections that need the categorization. And maintaining it really should be part of an AF-type bot. I do hope that this is intended to be applied to all living languages. Are all obsolete tags not in English marked with lang= tags? DCDuring TALK 13:01, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
I would also support requiring lang=en for these tags, because people constantly forget those tags and put entries in the English categories. In fact the whole "English as default" thing doesn't work too well... I've lost count of how many instances of {{term}} without a language I've had to fix... —CodeCat 13:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
How can implementation be scheduled? How are such actions decided? (I've just created a {{obsolete term}} for fully obsolete terms, and I plan to slowly add it to all Latvian words for which it is appropriate, so as to slowly fill Category:Latvian obsolete terms; but how about English and all the other languages?) --Pereru (talk) 02:01, 22 December 2012 (UTC) I've just transfered abstrude and a few other similar terms to Category:English obsolete terms by changing the tag from {{obsolete}} to {{obsolete term}}. Is that part of what should be happening? --Pereru (talk) 02:04, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Should {{obsolete}} be used for obsolete senses or obsolete terms? Using it for obsolete terms has one advantage: anyone can skim the list of obsolete terms and immediately spot a word they know is still in use. Trying to spot a completely-obsolete term among a list of terms with obsolete senses would be much harder. —CodeCat 02:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
On the other hand, people are more likely to use the shorter, generic name {{obsolete}} where it doesn't belong than to use the longer, explicit name {{obsolete term}} where it doesn't belong, so I think using {{obsolete}} only for obsolete terms and not for senses would be counter-intuitive and a bad idea. My preference would be to use {{obsolete}} for senses... but perhaps we should insist upon two explicitly named templates, {{obsolete term}} and {{obsolete sense}} (both with the display text "obsolete"?). Using two explicitly dedicated templates would make separate categorisation of entirely obsolete terms and of terms with obsolete senses practical, too. Btw, the "obsolete terms" category could be a subcategory of the "terms with obsolete senses" category, like "proper nouns" are a subcategory of "nouns". And we could keep {{obsolete}} (because new users and visitors from other projects may call it directly or in creative ways, like {{context|UK|obsolete|_|outside of|_|dialects}}), but treat its Whatlinkshere as a standing, self-updating cleanup list. - -sche (discuss) 04:39, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
I tend to agree with -sche above; {{obsolete sense}} would make, well, sense. But now there's one thing bugging me: shouldn't fully obsolete terms have the "obsolete" tag somewhere in their inflection line? Or else we'd have to add an {{obsolete term}} tag to every single sense, or else we imply that one of the obsolete senses is actually current... --Pereru (talk) 03:48, 23 December 2012 (UTC) By the way, in principle everything applies mutatis mutandis to the other Period labels and {{dated}}, right? --Pereru (talk) 03:50, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
So you are saying that obsoleteness of a term is not a context? I suppose that is true, but we don't have any system currently in place for indicating term-wide contexts. This has been a problem in the past too... for example {{cardinal}} or {{personal}} shouldn't really be usage labels either. —CodeCat 03:55, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
We indicate obsolescence on the sense line when only one of several senses is obsolete, so I think obsolescence should also be indicated on the sense line when all senses are obsolete: indicating obsolescence on each sense line in all cases adds clarity. Meanwhile, we indicate on the inflection/headline line when certain inflected forms are obsolete (or dialectal, etc; see [[learn]], [[work#verb]], etc): so indicating the obsolescence of senses on the inflection line, when the inflected forms are not any more obsolete (or {{dated}}!) than the word itself, would be confusing. I expect some people wouldn't notice the tag on the inflection line, and would thus think that no sense was obsolete (not what you want), or would notice the tag but think (logically) than it applied to the inflections and again that the senses were not obsolete (again, not what you want)... I think it's better to indicate the obsolescence of the senses on the sense line. (How many highly polysemous obsolete words are there, anyway?) - -sche (discuss) 05:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
We don't do this for any other register or dialect: We don't have separate categories for US-only terms and for those with US-only senses, nor separate categories for math-specific terms and for those with math-specific senses. Why should obsolete be different?​—msh210 (talk) 06:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
For one thing, it would give us a list of terms which a bot could use to identify terms that should probably not be used in definitions. The same would be true in varying degrees for {{archaic}}, {{dated}}, {{rare}}, and possibly others. DCDuring TALK 10:27, 23 December 2012 (UTC)


It is rather unusual for us to use a bare adjective as a category name. I can't really think of anything substantially better, but if someone has an idea, I'd be glad to hear it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:30, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Category:Sailing is already taken as a subcat (though I don't know what the difference is supposed to be), so perhaps Category:Nautical terminology? —Angr 13:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I believe Category:Sailing has to do specifically with sailboats: you can set sail in a submarine, but the verb "surface" isn't a sailing term (unless you're doing a really bad job of it)... Chuck Entz (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
What about Category:Boating? That's what Wikipedia's Sailing category is a subcat of. —Angr 15:03, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I like your previous suggestion, Nautical terminology. If you take a look, a lot of it is sailors' slang. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:50, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
There is slang, and there is jargon. The sailing argot of the late 19th-early 20th century was also translingual; there is ample evidence the industry required proficiency in the technical language but did not require the ability to otherwise communicate with colleagues or officers. Much of nautical terminology refers to maritime and shipping law, e.g. Singapore was established as an entrepôt port (which term is completely lacking the tax-relevant character: it is a port/warehouse at which goods may be stored for transshipment without incurring taxes.) - Amgine/ t·e 19:04, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
No other categories, AFAICT, use "terminology" in their name, so I support Angr's suggestion of Category:Boating. - -sche (discuss) 00:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't love it, but I could go with Boating. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:23, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
  • I say to leave the category "nautical" as it is. "Boating terms" is just a subset of "nautical terms." "Watercraft" would be the term for for both surface and submarine vessels (as well as seaplanes technically). However, I do think we need more subcategories within "category:nautical" since "nautical" is a very vague and comprehensive term that can also be applied to (nautical) meteorological terms (e.g. hurricanes and waterspouts) as well as to swimming and diving terms, nautical myths and legends (e.g. krakens, mermaids, and Atlantis), and a very large number of names for ocean animals, particularly those used in the fishing industry. Nicole Sharp (talk) 17:21, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
    • Perhaps the category can be changed actually to having a supercategory of "category:sea" and then subdivide that into categories of (saltwater) terms for watercraft, water navigation, seaports, sea animals, sea plants, sea myths and legends, seaborne activities, etc. Nicole Sharp (talk) 17:28, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:18, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


Category names containing "US"Edit

I believe that the punctuated U.S. is the more formal usage, and has the advantage of not being mistaken for an all-caps instance of the word, "us". I therefore propose to move all categories containing "US" (e.g. Category:US State Capitals, Category:fr:US States, and Category:Southern US English) to titles containing "U.S.". By my count, this covers about 50 categories in total. If approved, I will be glad to do all of the renaming and recategorization. bd2412 T 21:29, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I actually think we'd be better off renaming them to categories containing the unabbreviated "United States". --WikiTiki89 21:50, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I would absolutely agree with that, as it eliminates all possible ambiguity. For states, we would have to change it to "States of the United States" to avoid the alliteration of "United States States". bd2412 T 22:06, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
We wouldn't have to, but I agree it would make it less awkward. Anyway, I see no problem with "States of the United States". --WikiTiki89 22:16, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. At least part of the time, people have to type these category names by hand, and even a couple of extra characters every time can be a nuisance (I'm surprised you aren't going all the way and suggesting "the United States of America").
I fail to see how the "US" in category names could ever be mistaken for a pronoun- do you really think people are going to look at Category:US States and mistake it for a colloquial version of "we states"?
It looks very much to me like a solution in search of a problem, with no real benefit, unless you can call forcing people to do more typing a benefit. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Our category names, being part of the visible public product, should at least look formal and professional. bd2412 T 04:24, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Support renaming to "United States". Note that we do currently have Category:Languages of the United States of America (rather than Category:Languages of the United States); I don't know if it should be renamed for consistency. - -sche (discuss) 18:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
For an English-speaking audience, "of America" is indeed probably superfluous. bd2412 T 21:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
Is there any further comment/opinion on this? bd2412 T 00:32, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Attributive US and noun United States. So US state capitals (caps sic) and Languages of the United StatesMichael Z. 2014-03-16 04:11 z
Is that just an opinion on whether United States should be spelled out, or is it also addressed to the question of whether we should use a punctuated U.S.? bd2412 T 18:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Both. These are also the forms recommended by the Chicago Manual of Style. Michael Z. 2014-03-17 21:56 z
I see no reason to abbreviate. --WikiTiki89 21:57, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Meänkieli (fit) and Kven (fkv) into Finnish (fi)Edit

Finnish dialects

I think that linguists consider these to be dialects of Finnish, so that would make these pluricentric standards of a single language. I don't know if keeping them separate would hold any value? —CodeCat 14:05, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Let's ping our active Finnish speakers to see if they have input: User:Hekaheka and User:Makaokalani. 23:16, 23 March 2014 (UTC) (updated - -sche (discuss) 06:09, 6 April 2014 (UTC))
The impression I get from the example at w:Meänkieli is that the differences are very minor, no more than there might be between Croatian and Serbian. I notice systematic loss of -d- and Finnish -ts- corresponds to -tt- in Meänkieli. They definitely look mutually intelligible. Kven looks a little more different, but it might also just be the spelling; I don't know how hard it would be to the average Finnish speaker. —CodeCat 23:26, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I know maybe a dozen words of Finnish, so I can't judge for myself, but the impression I get from the Wikipedia articles is that there's an equal or greater range of variation between dialects in Finland as there is with these dialects- if these dialects were on the other side of the Finnish border, they would probably be considered just part of the normal dialectal variation (I'm sure there are some differences due to their isolation from the influence of standard Finnish, as well). They have special status because they're in Sweden and Norway surrounded by Swedish and Norwegian. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Finnish wasn't even a single language to begin with originally. There's several dialect groups that form a continuum, but it's not easy to draw clear lines. Savonian (eastern) dialects for example might well be closer to Karelian (considered a separate language) than they are to western Finnish. —CodeCat 00:10, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
My impression is the same as Chuck's, that these could be merged. By my (quick) count, we have 11 Meänkieli entries and 14 English entries with Meänkieli translations, and 19 Kven entries and 8 entries with Kven translations. - -sche (discuss) 02:45, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
For more information see w:Finnish dialects and also w:Peräpohjola dialects. The map to the right may also help. —CodeCat 03:33, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Blue indicates areas where Finnish is spoken by the majority, and green indictes minority. Meänkieli and Kven are considered Finnish on this map

I somehow missed this discussion when it was active, but better later than never. I have the following comments:

  • The map is outdated. There's practically no Finnish-speaking population left in the areas which were annexed by the Soviet Union during and after the WWII. The map on the right is more up-to-date.
  • There's some Ingrian population left in the St. Petersburg area, but their number and share of population (less than 0,5‰ in Leningrad oblast) is drastically reduced due to 1) inflow of Russians to St. Petersburg, 2) Stalin's terror in the 1930's and 3) emigration to Finland between 1990 and 2011.
  • I'm not sure of Kven-speakers, but the speakers of Meänkieli tend to be quite strong in their opinion that they are not Finnish-speakers. It is probably true that if the border were in another place, Meänkieli would be considered a Finnish dialect. But then again, it would hardly be the same language as it is today - it would have preserved less archaic features and there would be much less Swedish influence in it. If ISO regards it a language, how could we be wiser?
  • Meänkieli is an official minority language in Sweden, and is regarded as distinct from Finnish which also has a (separate) minority language status there.
  • "Finnish wasn't even a single language to begin with originally." -- Show me one that was!

--Hekaheka (talk) 12:27, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Let's take a look at our current 15 Meänkieli and 20 Kven lemmas:
  • Meänkieli:
    • Six words indistinguishable from Standard Finnish
    • Two words indistinguishable in shape from Standard Finnish but with dialect-specific meanings
    • Four words with some phonetic peculiarities specific to Northern dialects
    • Two words widespread across Finnish dialects
    • One word that might be specific to the variety, or might be one of the previous
  • Kven:
    • Seven words indistinguishable from Standard Finnish
    • Seven words widespread across Finnish dialects
    • Five words with some phonetic peculiarities specific to Northern dialects
    • One narrow-distribution loanword from Norwegian
So yes,   Support. We could well treat these as Finnish dialects, though I think to account for any local neologisms and such, they would deserve categories of their own under Category:Regional Finnish. --Tropylium (talk) 19:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I've merged Kven into Finnish, relabelling the handful of Kven entries we had, except nelje and kahðeksen, yhðeksen and yhðeksentoista, which don't seem to be attested in any language. (kahdeksen and yhdeksen do seem to be attested as regional variants of the usual Finnish terms.) - -sche (discuss) 05:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Category:Japanese humble languageEdit

Category:Japanese humble terms

I noticed the nonexistent topical category Category:ja:Humble in Special:WantedCategories, and checked, as I often do, whether there was an existing category that already covered the subject. I found these two. The first one was created by User:Haplology, and has more information about Japanese culture, while the other one was created by User:Atitarev along with Category:Korean humble terms, and is more suited to a multi-language series of categories.

It seems to me that Category:Japanese humble terms fits our naming scheme better, so I propose we merge both into that one, and that we convert it and the Korean category to use {{lexiconcatboiler}}, which is designed for this kind of thing. That means creating a category called Category:Humble terms by language with a general description of humble language in its subtemplate. We can then add language-specific details to the Japanese and Korean categories.

I suspect that there aren't many languages that have such well-developed and institutionalized humble lexicons as these do, but I'm sure there are an awful lot of languages that have at least a few such terms- "your humble servant" comes to mind as an English example. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It's only to do with two languages - Korean and Japanese. Note: some people mix "honorific" with "polite" or "formal" but the exact concept currently exists only in Japanese and Korean, even if other languages have similar ideas, "honorific" and "humble" are opposite and used in out- and in-group references.
I have posted on User:Haplology's page some time ago, which is now archived. You can see here: [1]. Haplology admitted that the structure wasn't perfect and needs fixing.
The current setup:
In my opinion it should be:
Which matches Japanese more closely.
@Eirikr might add more to it. I didn't get around to fixing it but I will. It's not a big list. Korean can and should be structured the same way. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The suggested structure above (2) shows that honorific and humble terms are both part of the respectful formal language but honorific is used in reference to outgroup and humble - to ingroup. The concept and usage are critical in formal communication in Japanese and Korean languages. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
We could also put them directly under Category:Japanese formal terms, if that works. —CodeCat 01:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
It's not the same, although if it's related. Category:Japanese honorifics should be a subcategory of Category:Japanese formal terms. "Formal" is opposed to "colloquial" but respectful language is a specific variety, which needs special training, including native Japanese students. E.g. おっしゃる (ossharu, honorific) shows respect to the 2nd/3rd person or outgroup and is never used in self-reference in the polite speech, whereas 申す (mōsu, humble) is used to self-reference or ingroup (even if one talks about own CEO!). Formal words are used regardless who/what they refer to in the formal language, like in any language. An interesting example might be that a person talking to an outsider about own general manager without polite "-san" (e.g. simply Yamada, not Yamada-san) and using humble terms. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Category:Wiktionary:Foo → Category:Wiktionary fooEdit

I have just finished moving Category:Wiktionary:Language considerations to Category:Wiktionary language considerations in accordance with the discussion above. But that's not the only category that's using "Wiktionary:" as a pseudonamespace. I therefore propose all of the following moves:

If there is consensus to make these name changes, I also request someone with a bot to do it, because the move I did by hand wasn't particularly big, but it sure was tedious. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe some of these should have "Wiktionary" removed from the names. Not sure which though. —CodeCat 14:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Category:Help already exists and it isn't clear what the difference is between it and Category:Wiktionary:Help, so those two probably really should be merged. The same goes for Category:Pronunciation and Category:Wiktionary:Pronunciation: they both exist, but seem to have the same function. Category:Statistics is a topic category covering things like Category:en:Statistics and Category:de:Statistics, so it can't be merged with Category:Wiktionary:Statistics. Category:Translation seems like a good potential topic category too, even though it isn't one yet, so I'd rather keep that one free at least. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:55, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I've moved Category:Wiktionary:Help,and Daniel has moved Category:Wiktionary:Transliteration. - -sche (discuss) 18:35, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Category:English temporal location adverbs to Category:English punctual adverbsEdit

I think "punctual" is the more common way to describe these? —CodeCat 23:41, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

"Temporal adverb" is much, more common, though it may include a more diverse group of adverbs DCDuring TALK 00:19, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I believe that we are making a mistake to treat all of these in subcategories of parts of speech. We can be free of the tyranny of the word classes that users are familiar with for purposes of categories of this kind, though sadly not for headings. There are nominals that are not nouns, MWEs that are not phrases of any kind. Forcing a category structure to be hierarchical is convenient in a bureaucratic kind of way, but it does a great deal of violence to the reality of things. DCDuring TALK 00:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
There was Category:Latvian temporal adverbs, which I renamed to Category:Latvian time adverbs while also creating Category:English time adverbs. I did this because "temporal" seems like a higher-register word, which is like the distinction between "location" and "locative" - and we already had Category:English location adverbs as noted in the discussion below. So I figured that "time" was a better lexical counterpart to "location" than "temporal". Using "temporal location" is confusing as it gives the impression that these adverbs indicate a place, which they don't of course. But it also misses the point of the category. The defining characteristic is that these refer to punctual moments in time, analogous to adverbs which denote stationary position. They contrast with adverbs like "yearly" or "for a year" which denote frequency and duration respectively. These, of course, are also temporal location adverbs, but they don't belong in this category as they have their own categories (Category:English frequency adverbs and Category:English duration adverbs), so the suggested new name is an attempt to make this more explicit. —CodeCat 21:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Note that the other categories both use nouns attributively instead of adjectives, eg, not "frequent adverbs", but "frequency adverbs". The nouns are chosen because they have a different meaning than the adjectives. "Punctuality" obviously doesn't cut it. Can you think of any other one- or two-word nominal that would be better than "temporal location"? DCDuring TALK 14:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Ain't broke. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
    • It is, see my reply above. —CodeCat 21:01, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
DCDuring is right that "temporal adverbs" is a lot more common than "punctual adverbs". The latter phrase gets only 50 non-redundant raw Google hits, and 47 Google Books hits; the former phrase gets at least 43 pages of Google Books hits (43x10 = 430 hits) before the hits stop actually containing the phrase. "Temporal location adverbs" is the least common of the bunch, getting only 6 Books hits, and it's a moronic / oxymoronic name, because it states that the adverbs refer to places, which they do not. So the question is whether it's sufficient to relabel these as "temporal adverbs", or necessary to give them the narrower label "punctual adverbs"? Are there enough of them that the narrow categorization is necessary? Is the narrow label one people will understand? - -sche (discuss) 22:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, as it is now, we have Category:English time adverbs, but it's a parent category to various other types of adverbs with an aspect of time. The adverbs in question here are just one type. So it wouldn't make so much sense to have "temporal adverbs" as a subcategory of "time adverbs". But it also wouldn't make much sense to have "frequency adverbs" as a subcategory of "temporal adverbs" if the latter is meant to indicate points in time specifically. —CodeCat 17:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


This poorly maintained category should be combined with Category:Taxonomy. The poor maintenance arises from the overlap conceptually as well as the poor choice of name for this category. In addition, for some undocumented and unfathomable reason Category:Taxonomy was made a subcategory of Category:Systematics. I think this is symptomatic of the unmaintainablity of the category. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Support. —CodeCat 20:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if we should merge the two. In the English categories, at least, the members seem to be correctly apportioned between the two, with a handful of exceptions. I do think they should be made sister categories, rather than one being under the other. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
I would support that too. —CodeCat 20:46, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
What are the criteria that distinguish membership in the categories? Many dictionaries have them as synonyms in one or more of the variously defined senses and subsenses, two of which BTW systematics lacks. DCDuring TALK 13:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Khanty words with /ɬ/Edit

Requesting a move of a dozen Khanty words:

These have /ɬ/, which is however written ӆ and not ԓ (this is instead, I believe, /ɭ/). Quite a few current entries are sourced from a dictionary (Kononova 2002) which uses a rather ԓ-like but regardless clearly el-with-tail glyph. --Tropylium (talk) 13:24, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

(Listed here in case anyone wants to argue that ԓ for /ɬ/ is actually a competing dialectal standard that should have precedence. --Tropylium (talk))
I think you are mostly going to talk to yourself in this section. Move, if Tropylium says so. --Vahag (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I would say just go ahead and move them yourself. Unless there's a chance that other languages will have terms using the original spellings, the redirects that you leave will actually be useful for those who make the same mistake when searching. Given the similarity of the characters, I have a hunch scannos from online books might be a major source of these. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, w:Khanty language uses both letters (Ӆ ӆ and Ԓ ԓ). Are you certain that these particular words are spelled with Ӆ ӆ? —Stephen (Talk) 15:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Update: apparently the normative glyph is in fact ԯ (el with descender). However, this has not been widely available in fonts, so ӆ or ԓ have been used as workaround solutions in some materials. (Can anyone reading this actually see the first glyph?) --Tropylium (talk) 09:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tropylium: Just FYI, the free font Quivira supports Ԯ, ԯ (Ԯ, ԯ). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
@Tropylium, do these still need to be moved? - -sche (discuss) 22:55, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
They do, though we never did settle here if we should move them to use ԯ or ӆ. Since the latter is attestable as well, and seems to render better, I would be okay with it (even if we might be setting ourselves up for replacing these again with alternate-spelling soft-redirects some years down the line). --Tropylium (talk) 01:57, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


Category:Probability, Category:Probability theory and Category:StatisticsEdit

The terminology of probability theory and statistics overlaps so much that there is little point in maintaining the two disciplines as separate topical categories.

I also cannot see the point of maintaining Category:Probability separately from Category:Probability theory — unless it is meant to contain terms used in informal discussions of probability (as opposed to mathematical formalisation thereof).

Also, Category:Linear algebra and Category:Vector algebra are one and the same. I would suggest deleting the latter, except I am too lazy to do a separate nomination for those.

Asking Msh210 to weigh in, just in case. Keφr 19:10, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, w:vector algebra, q.v., and linear algebra are identical. Probability theory is a far cry, to my mind, from statistics. In particular, their uses are different: lots and lots of people use statistics, and the words that are relevant to statistics, without knowing or caring anything about probability theory. Perhaps one topcat for statistics and applied probability and another for probability theory? But they'll share quite a few words. Perhaps instead one for statistics and one for probability? They, too, will share quite a few words. So I don't know the best course of action. Maybe we should keep the three categories we have now, but rename "Probability" to "Applied probability". If we do decide to have separate topcats for applied probability and for probability theory, then perhaps merge the latter into category:Measure theory?​—msh210 (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I have speedy-merged "Vector algebra" into "Linear algebra". Only three entries were affected: [[գրադիենտ]], [[ristitulo]] and [[vektoritulo]]. Keφr 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
As for "lots of people use words relevant to statistics without caring about probability theory" — can you clarify that with an example? Keφr 18:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Practical statisticians, like w:Gonçalo Abecasis and w:Nate Silver, probably know little (and care little) about σ-algebras and probability measures.​—msh210 (talk) 21:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I think these particular two terms would actually fit better in Category:en:Measure theory than in Category:en:Probability theory anyway (yes, even the latter). They are not "purely probabilistic" terms — in fact, I doubt any such terms exist, otherwise I would not propose this merger. Keφr 22:16, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Maybe they would fit better there. As I said above, "If we do decide to have separate topcats for applied probability and for probability theory, then perhaps merge the latter into category:Measure theory".​—msh210 (talk) 00:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
In that case, the question to ask is what terms are characteristic to "applied probability" as opposed to "pure" probability and statistics. Right now Category:en:Probability contains terms like mgf, stochastic matrix and evens — of which only the latter seems rather non-statistical. On the other hand, it would be awkward to find probability distribution in a category whose name does not mention probability. Keφr 15:23, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
@Kephir I think you are wrong about no purely probabilistic terms existing. But, even if you are correct, that doesn't in and of itself mean that Category:Probability should be deleted. Msh and I have posited that statistics-only terms exist. Statistics-only terms shouldn't be in the same combination of categories as statistics-and-probability terms; probability could continue to exist as a subcategory of statistics even if no probability-only terms were found to exist. Purplebackpack89 00:52, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
In defense of the quote "lots of people use words relevant to statistics without caring about probability theory", there are lots of statistics that can be discerned without using probability. Rates, and to a certain extent averages, concern probability, but statistics is also enumerations and changes, which can be calculated without using probability. Purplebackpack89 23:37, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


This just sounds too silly, at least from a North American perspective, and is really not something I would ever think to type in if looking for the category. Is there anyone to whom Category:en:Toilet would not be equally or more intuitive than Category:en:WC? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:21, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I've complained about this one before, back when it was a template: I would hazard a guess that there are very few in the US that even know what WC refers to. It's also odd to see it categorized under Category:Rooms, especially since it's the only subcategory under it. That means that Category:Feces is a sub-sub-sub-category of Category:Buildings and structures- counterintuitive, to say the least. The other subcategory of Category:WC, Category:Toiletry is another oddity, since it has nothing to do with water closets, and contains Category:Cosmetics
The problem is that all of the common English terms are euphemisms, and most have had considerable evolution in meaning, so there's nothing really clear and obvious worldwide. Strictly speaking, a water closet is the plumbing fixture, but has apparently come to mean the room that houses it. This is also true of toilet, and, I believe, loo, as well (our entry is ambiguous about that). At least water closet isn't ambiguous- toilet also refers to grooming, washing one's face, etc. Another US term, bathroom can refer to a room containing a bath, and lavatory can refer to a sink. Terms such as restroom, and ladies' room/men's room are vague enough that anyone who doesn't already know what they refer to will have no clue from the name. We need to figure out which term is most recognizable in all parts of the world.
As I mentioned above, we really need to rethink this part of the category tree: feces have little to do with buildings, and cosmetics have nothing to do with feces. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
What he said, basically. The whole structure needs redoing. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:46, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Category:Perching birdsEdit

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2015/June#Category:Perching_birds.

This used to be at Category:Passerines, but was moved a few months ago - I would like to suggest it be moved back. Passerines is the more commonly used term (Google Ngram), particularly in the bird community. I doubt perching birds is in particularly common use; the common term is probably songbirds, which is technically inaccurate as it is usually taken to mean only the oscines. Keith the Koala (talk) 11:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I've moved this to the proper venue for such requests. I'll comment on substance shortly. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for redefining the meaning of "shortly"... I renamed the category in the first place in an effort to make it more accessible to general users: I remembered seeing the Passeriformes referred to in various encyclopedias and bird books over the years as the "Perching Birds", and I also wondered if anyone would be confused by the fact that "-ines" names for animals are usually reserved for subfamilies (which end in -inae). Given that most users of this dictionary are probably not "in the bird community" and probably have never heard of terms such as passerines or oscines before coming here, I'm not sure how important it is to reflect usage in this case. That said, there are probably only a handful of languages with enough bird names to even need an intermediate category like this, so it's not really that big a deal. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
"Passerines" is uncommon, but it's not some obscure technical term - turn on Springwatch and you can hear Chris Packham talking about passerines until your wings fall off. "Perching birds" is really no better - nobody actually says "perching birds" except to try and explain what "passerines" means, on top of which it's not SoP (lots of other birds perch) so people might think they understand it when they don't. tbh, I'd be happiest with just lumping all birds in Category:Birds, I think it's easy to overcategorize these things. Keith the Koala (talk) 14:42, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
"Passerines" remind me of the often-used fungus group, the LBMs (little brown mushrooms).
If we continue to develop vernacular names and taxonomic names in parallel (to the extent that they are parallel), we can have the luxury of different classifications in different languages, not to mention the structure that emerges from Derived terms and the semantic relations headings. The relationships among taxonomic names are likely to diverge increasingly from those among vernacular names.
Among bird names, though, there is a major effort to have vernacular language names that correspond to taxonomic names and relationships. (Similarly with mammals.) The IOC birdname website has English bird family names (sometimes in form like "Kites, hawks, and eagles" or "Pheasants and allies") that seem designed to be in one-to-one correspondence with taxonomic family names. There are frequent correspondences at genus and species level as well. I'm not sure about higher levels.
Birds (Aves) are a class (or a clade) that we have fairly well covered AFAICT. It affords us one of the best opportunities to have good vernacular categorization and naming. I don't see why we don't have categories that correspond to multiple levels of groups of birds, though I would prefer that "bird" be left to at least one of the definition, image, and Hypernyms in the entry to communicate.
Both 'Passerines' and 'Perching birds' seem like high levels of categorization that don't well correspond to words in vernacular language usage. The IOC doesn't help much with terms like 'Oscines' and 'Suboscines'. A vernacular type-based name like 'Sparrow-like birds' would be communicative, but has little else to recommend it. DCDuring TALK 23:44, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
The birding equivalent is LBJs (little brown jobs). Chuck Entz (talk) 06:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

West African Pidgin English varietiesEdit

Ethnologue has assigned codes to some but not all of the varieties of West African Pidgin English, and we in turn have incorporated some (e.g. pcm) but not all (e.g. not gpe) of those codes. As WP notes, the "contemporary English-based pidgin and creole languages are so similar that they are sometimes grouped together under the name 'West African Pidgin English'" (a name which also denotes their predecessor which developed in the 1700s). WP's examples are illustrative, particularly in that its Ghanaian and Nigerian Pidgin English examples are identical. I propose to merge at least the following three varieties into wes, renaming it "West African Pidgin English":

  1. Ghanaian Pidgin English (gpe)
  2. Nigerian Pidgin English (pcm)
  3. Cameroonian Pidgin English (wes)

We could also discuss whether or not to merge Sierra Leone Krio (kri, which WP notes its often mistaken for English slang due to its similarity to English, but which has a somewhat distinct alphabet), Pichinglis / Fernando Po Creole (fpe), and Liberian Kreyol / Liberian Pidgin English (lir). - -sche (discuss) 21:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

The question is a very complex one. Firstly (but of least importance), scholars are divided on which lects have creolised and which have not, but it is generally agreed upon that at least some of the language you mentioned are not pidgins, which would make the name "West African Pidgin English" somewhat of a misnomer (the more neutral name "Wes-Kos" have been suggested as an alternative, but even linguists haven't fully adopted it). Secondly, all these lects are remarkably similar on a lexical level, but that's unsurprising; after all, they resulted from separate but very similar language contact events, and then probably modified each other (one scholar posits that Krio and Cameroonian Pidgin English relexified each other to some degree after pidginisation). The similarities are also obscured by the fact that there is nothing close to an agreed orthography for most of these, and pronunciation does differ a bit across West Africa. Linguistically, I'd probably merge them all, but practically that may not be the best decision. I know we have entries in pcm, but probably next to nothing for the rest, and if somebody wants to add them, given how each lect is very neatly assigned to a certain West African country, at least it won't be confusing for them to do so. Conclusion: the literature is schizophrenic, the lects mutually intelligible, and the existing situation remarkably unproblematic. Therefore I abstain. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:19, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by subjectEdit

Appendix:English collective nounsEdit

Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by collective termEdit

(Appendix:English collective nouns is edit protected, so I can't place the template there, but I guess that would be the more sensible target location)

Redundant to each other. Both pages have serious clean-up issues, of course (has anyone ever actually called a group of cheetahs a "coalition", or is that a joke at the expense of perhaps the British coalition government? (Apparently it's in use!) Will anyone ever have need of a collective noun for Jezebels?). Smurrayinchester (talk) 13:12, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Most of these fancy collective nouns floating around the Internet are artificial words that amateur philologists pull out of their asses in order to look “cool”. Most of them have never been used and will probably never be used. If you think the ones listed at the page are bad, look at the edit histories. For this reason it is important that the validity of collectives added to these appendices (and to the mainspace) isn’t taken for granted.
On topic: Appendix:English collective nouns looks redundant to Category:English collective nouns, so I favour deleting it. But I think Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by subject is useful to keep around due to its presentation advantages over a category page. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

(Added Appendix:Glossary of collective nouns by collective term - the sorting issues that led to these appendices being split would be better resolved with a sortable table). Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Category:en:Exonyms -> Category:English exonymsEdit

Per Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories, move:

Rationale: This makes these categories nominally consistent with all other categories that describe the words ("Category:English blablabla") rather than their meanings ("Category:en:blablabla"), such as all categories listed in Category:English terms by etymology.

In fact, I believe Category:English exonyms should be a subcategory of Category:English terms by etymology.

It's interesting to note that Category:English terms by etymology was once called Category:en:Etymology before it was moved multiple times. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:22, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Being an exonym is not a matter of how a word was created. In fact, terms often don't start off as exonyms, but become exonyms as the languages diverge and evolve. So it's not appropriate to put it under etymology. —CodeCat 00:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

*Oppose: Exonyms should remain as a category and English exonyms should be a subcategory of it. Purplebackpack89 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I nominated specifically "Category:en:Exonyms -> Category:English exonyms", you mentioned "English exonyms should be [] ", so I don't see how this would work as an oppose vote to my nomination. I don't suppose you wanted the category to remain named "Category:en:Exonyms", right?
In any event, the format that other umbrella categories use according to Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories is "Category:Exonyms by language" -> "Category:English exonyms". Like "Category:Nouns by language" -> "Category:English nouns". --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:16, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh, sorry, I missed the "en" in there. Retracting my vote. Purplebackpack89 00:22, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
No problem, thank you. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:26, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
This should not be controversial, but it's wise to check. DCDuring TALK 23:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Continuation of #Category:en:Names into Category:English namesEdit

Reviving the earlier discussion, I'm still bothered by the fact that we have two different categories for names. But the previous discussion also made it clear that it's not as easy as just merging them.

CodeCat 00:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, what I am going to say is somewhat off-topic and maybe I'm minority on that, but I would not mind using the naming system "Category:English xxxx" for all topical categories: Category:en:Chess -> English terms related to chess. (or any better name along those lines) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:59, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
"Category:en:Transliteration of personal names" could be renamed to "Category:English names transliterated from other languages", I suppose. What's the matter with the demonyms category? It contains demonyms, as expected. Would it be better titled "English demonyms", on the model of "English phrases"? - -sche (discuss) 06:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
"Category:en:Transliteration of personal names" would be better named "English transliterations of (foreigners') personal names". Notice the existence of e.g.Category:Latvian transliterations of English names.‎ Names of non-English speakers are not English names. I agree with CodeCat that place names belong to topic categories.--Makaokalani (talk) 14:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

December 2015Edit

Template:rfe and Template:rfeliteEdit

Both of these templates serve the same purpose, the only difference is in looks. So I think they should be merged. I have no particular preference for which we should keep, just that one of them should go. —CodeCat 23:21, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Provisional oppose, although I may change my mind; I'd like to see what @DCDuring, DTLHS think. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
They should either be merged (with one redirecting to the other), or kept. Since I generally don't like templates being needlessly consolidated, I'll say keep Purplebackpack89 23:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't really care. DTLHS (talk) 23:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Looks is a personal preference, so one of them should go. The "lite" one doesn't let an editor add reasoning (and I can only imagine reasoning awkwardly tacked onto the end of the notice), so I think that {{rfelite}} should be deleted. —suzukaze (tc) 23:46, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c Comments can always be added directly to the etymology section or as an unnamed parameter in any template that does not rely on such parameters for its functionality. DCDuring TALK 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't see any particular benefit to tidying by combining them. The templates differ by their look. That is not an insignificant consideration to whatever normal users may use our work, should there be any.
I think all of the big-display-box templates are hideous and potentially distracting to normal users. I'd bet that most contributions of etymologies are generated by contributors (not normal users) who find the entries by means other than noticing {{rfe}} (or {{rfelite}}). The same is probably true of {{rfi}} and {{rfc}}. I'd further bet that the main function these boxes serve is to steer a contributor to the particular part of the entry that needs work. A big box seems unnecessary for that function. In contrast, in the cases of {{rfd}} and {{rfv}}, arguably the distraction is intentional and constructive, as it serves as a warning to users that there may be something wrong with the definitions or that they might want to participate in the discussion about them.
I'd love to hear the thoughts of others, 1., on the effect of the differing displays on different types of normal users and, 2., on whether we still have the prospect of gaining such users in sufficient numbers to be of any concern to us. DCDuring TALK 00:35, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
I think for clarity I'd merge {{etystub}} into {{rfelite}} rather than the other way around. But we should have both etystub and rfelite as they do the exact same job. {{rfe}} should really only be used when no etymology is present because it doesn't interact well with either text that's before it or after it. But it is more obviously visible, being in a box. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:11, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
{{etystub}} has a different message. It allows for the possibility that the etymology exists but is incomplete. Neither of the other two do that. Perhaps at least one of the two others should have a switch that changed the display to indicate the etymology, though present, is incomplete. The problem with not having such wording is that some new contributor could view {{rfe}} or {{rfelite}} as not having been removed when the etymology was added. Converting {{etystub}} to have a more modest appearance like that of {{rfelite}} would be an improvement. The big-box look it now has is enough to make me occasionally miss the presence of the stub etymology that is there. DCDuring TALK 22:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
I think the nuance is much too small to be worth keeping. Just change it to 'absent or incomplete' and you're done. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:03, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
Per Wiktionary:Beer parlour#October 2019, {{rfe}} is now inline by default, and {{rfelite}} is deprecated. Benwing2 (talk) 02:33, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Checking in a month later, I noticed only two entries using the now-deprecated template, which I cleaned up. I suppose the intention is to delete it at some point? - -sche (discuss) 05:03, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

January 2016Edit

Appendix:Word formation verb -en noun -nessEdit

Bad title. Need the word English in there, and something more 'fluent'. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:23, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

As creator of this apx, I totally agree. Just wish I could think of something !! :-/ -- ALGRIF talk 15:22, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Hows about Appendix:English adjectives with derived terms in -en and -ness? Also, I think the derivation "strong" => "strengthen" and "strongness" may not be accurate and, in any event, is the weakest exemplar. DCDuring TALK 16:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Resurrected out of the archives; anyone have ideas for a better title? - -sche (discuss) 04:15, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't understand the purpose of this appendix. There doesn't seem to have any special relationship between verbs in -en and nouns in -ness. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:17, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Appendix:Swadesh lists for Austronesian languages etcEdit

and Appendix:Swadesh for Malayo-Polynesian languages - Appendix:Cognate sets for Austronesian languages

These overlap a lot, and should be merged in some way. -- Prince Kassad 17:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Added another one I found. -- Prince Kassad 10:12, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Resurrected out of the archives. - -sche (discuss) 04:20, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

February 2016Edit

have itEdit

2 definitions: "to have died" and "to be beyond repair"

These meanings only exist for have had it, which doesn't and should have these. The translations need to be moved and checked as well. DCDuring TALK 15:27, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

caught with one's hand in the cookie jarEdit

Move to hand in the cookie jar (now a redirect to this), which is included in many more expressions than this one, eg have one's hand in the cookie jar, to catch someone with their hand in the cookie jar. I would be happy to add redirects and for all possessive determiners and for the various verb forms of catch and have and usage examples for a selection of these and perhaps others, such as put and keep. DCDuring TALK 21:35, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

As it is now a search for "catch with his hand in the cookie jar" does not find this entry. DCDuring TALK 21:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

in lieuEdit

I didn't find any use at COCA of this except in in lieu of (1,045) and (Canada, legal) pay in lieu (2). There was one use of in lieu thereof. The other seven instances included the name of a band, an incomplete spoken utterance, and similar.

I suspect that the translations belong at in lieu of or perhaps at fr.wikt. DCDuring TALK 04:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Move to in lieu of per nom. - -sche (discuss) 05:13, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
There are hits at Google Books for in lieu appointment]. Note that not all of them actually contain the phrase: some have "... in lieu. Appointment...". The same is true of in lieu payment], though it seems to be more common with a hyphen. It may not be that common, but in lieu does seem to be used as a legal/accounting term without any form of "of". Chuck Entz (talk) 06:33, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
I see. That would merit a reworking of the entry for in lieu, which looks to be limited to legal contexts. It seems that in lieu is often an abbreviation of in lieu of (something obvious from the context). In its prepositive attributive use "substitute" seems like a synonym or definition. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
There's also a day off in lieu [2] although I've no idea whether this would be better treated by a separate entry or an additional sense ("substitute") at in lieu. --Droigheann (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
To me it seems that the uses that are not in lieu of are derived from use of in lieu of in a legal context including labor law. They all seems to have become completely conventionalized in meaning – therefore dictionary-worthy – though sometimes the meaning might turn out to be restricted to a specific context. I think this might work presented as a non-gloss definition with each of the most typical applications illustrated with a usage example and possible with a subsense. DCDuring TALK 17:12, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

March 2016Edit

Linear AEdit

Strangely enough we have a language code for Linear A [lab], even though Linear A is a writing system and not a language. I have no idea why it was encoded or why we have it. -- Liliana 15:01, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

It's very odd. The script code for Linear A is "Lina"; the language code for Minoan is "omn"; but there's also a language code "lab" for a language called "Linear A". I have no idea what ISO and SIL were thinking, but I'm in favor of deleting "lab" from our modules. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I'll bet their thinking is that the language written in the script may be an unknown language, which would be consistent with w:Linear A. There do seem to be a large number of hypotheses about Linear A, nearly on the same order as the total number of recorded instances of the script. DCDuring TALK 18:33, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
I see. Reading Minoan language more carefully, I see that it's written in both Cretan hieroglyphs and Linear A, but since neither writing system has been deciphered, it isn't known whether it's the same language in two writing systems or two different languages. So maybe "omn" means Minoan in Cretan hieroglyphs and "lab" means Minoan in Linear A, and they may or may not refer to the same language. Given that the language is unknown and undeciphered, I wonder why we have one Minoan lemma: kuro. How do we know this word was pronounced "kuro" and that it means "total"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:25, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
It's in the wrong script anyway (it was added before Unicode covered Linear A), but afaik Linear A can be read simply by using the known values for Linear B syllables, which are visually similar. This word is always found at the end of lists, followed by a number, so the meaning was easy to figure out. -- Liliana 10:39, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

April 2016Edit


"Adverb" Passing by, especially without stopping or being delayed.

  1. Ignore them, we'll play past them.
    Please don't drive past the fruit stand, I want to stop there.

This seems to me to be a preposition sense, possibly identical to one already under that L2. DCDuring TALK 11:02, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

@DCDuring, I agree. It should be moved to the Preposition header. — Eru·tuon 15:29, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

June 2016Edit

Category:Finnish passive verbsEdit

Nonsensical: these are not verbs "usually used in the passive" (I would suppose they are used in the passive more rarely — verb forms like kaaduttiin 'there was falling down' aren't needed too often) but rather a collection of intransitive verbs with some kind of reflexive or middle semantics. Probably should be merged with Category:Finnish intransitive verbs. --Tropylium (talk) 03:14, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

July 2016Edit

Balkan Gagauz TurkishEdit

I see no evidence that this exists as a separate language, and move that it be merged with tr. The literature which references it seems to describe the dialect of Turkish which may be spoken by Gagauz people in the Balkan Peninsula. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:17, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia, citing Ethnologue, insists that Balkan Gagauz Turkish, Gagauz, and Turkish are all separate, and a few sources do seem to take that view, e.g. Cem Keskin, Subject agreement-dependency of accusative case in Turkish, or, Jump-starting grammatical machinery (2009) speaks of "Balkan Gagauz Turkish, Gagauz, Turkish, Iraqi Turkmen, North and South Azerbaijani, Salchuq, Aynallu, Qashqay, Khorasan Turkic, Turkmen, Oghuz Uzbek, Afshar, and possibly Crimean Tatar". Other references speak of Balkan Gagauz Turkish as a variety of Gagauz, e.g. James Minahan's Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations says "The Gagauz speak a Turkic language [...] also called Balkan Gagauz or Balkan Turkic, [which] is spoken in two major dialects, Central and Southern, with the former the basis of the literary language. Other dialects [include] Maritime Gagauz" (which comports with w:Gagauz's list of its dialects). Matthias Brenzinger's Language Diversity Endangered also treats Balkan Gagauz "or slightly misleading, Balkan Turkic" in his entry on Gagauz, but says it that the Balkan "varieties might deserve the status of outlying languages but very little information is available about them." (A few generalist references seem to subsume all gag into tr.) I would leave them all separate, pending more conclusive evidence that they should be merged. - -sche (discuss) 23:58, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
I think there's some confusion about what exactly we're talking about, and whether it's Gagauz or Turkish. Just because they use the term "Balkan Gagauz Turkish" doesn't mean that they're referring to the language with ISO 639-3 code bgx. When I look at who's citing the references listed for bgx at Glottolog, Manević (the reference for its classification) is cited in papers clearly talking about the dialects of tr. These are the only actual words attributed to this lect that I can find. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:33, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
@Tropylium, on the subject of Turkic languages spoken in Europe, do you know anything about this one, and about its differences or similarity to Gagauz and standard Turkish? - -sche (discuss) 01:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm not previously familiar with this dispute, but here are a few handbooks on the topic:
  • Menges in The Turkic Languages and Peoples has the following slightly complicated quote (p. 11): "The Turkic languages spoken farthest west are the Balkanic dialects of Osman and Gagauz in Bosnia, Bulgaria and Macedonia. These seem to form two groups, one of possibly pre-Osman origin, and a later Osman one. To the former belong the Gaǯaly in Deli-Orman (Eastern Bulgaria), who, according to V. A. Moškov, are descended from the Päčänäg, Uz, and Torci (?), the Surguč, numbering about 7000 people in the district (vilājät) of Edirnä, who call themselves Gagauz. In Moškov's opinion, they, too, go back to the Päčänägs (?) and the Macedonian Gagauz; they number ca. 4000 people in southeastern Macedonia." — It seems clear that some group(s) corresponding to "Balkan Gagauz" is being identified here, but I am not even sure how to parse the sentence structure; e.g. are "Uz" and "Torci" some of the pre-Osman Turkic groups, or some of the alleged ancestors of the Gaǯaly? ("Osman" is, of course, Turkish.)
  • Hendrik Boeschoten in a classificatory chapter in Routledge's The Turkic Languages mentions that "a few speakers [of Gagauz] in northern Bulgaria, Romania and Greece, adhere to the Orthodox faith, and have their own history." This again seems to refer to "Balkan Gagauz", but with no indication of being its own language.
So far I would gather from this that "Balkan Gagauz" is at most a sister language of "non-Balkan Gagauz", and perhaps indeed just a different dialect group (perhaps one whose features are not reflected in written standard Gagauz). But the Manević 1954 paper would be more informative on this topic, if anyone wants to hunt it down. --Tropylium (talk) 11:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I think Balkan Gagauz should be merged with gag, especially since it contains no entries. The few terms that would be specific for Gagauz spoken outside of the traditional Gagauz area in Moldova/Romania/Bulgaria can be dealt with within gag entries. The only thing is that some etymologies of other Turkic languages sometimes refer to Balkan Gagauz instead of Gagauz, because editors didn't know the difference between two. Otherwise I don't see any problems with merging them two.
On the other hand, Gagauz should definitely NOT be merged with Turkish, that is pretty obvious to me.Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 05:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge This is a hard question, I can offer only guesswork.
I can't find any good maps for the distribution of Gagauz and (Muslim) Turks proper in the Balkans, most don't show Balkan Gagauz at all although we know they exist at least in Bulgaria and Macedonia.
It seems that they are not easily separated geographically from Muslim Turks although they presumably live in different localities. I'm guessing this means that their languages ("Balkan Gagauz Turkish" and "Rumelian Turkish") could be the same, although maybe only the latter call their language "Turkish", so I guess that they (would?) use Standard Turkish in education and administration.
This would be a good argument to merge Balkan Gagauz into Turkish, except that this paper shows that Balkan Turkic (if this really is a single language) is quite distinct from Anatolian Turkish and perhaps worth considering a different language. Baskakov also considers Balkan Turkish and (Moldovan) Gagauz to form a clade within Oghuz and Anatolian Turkish and Azerbaijani to form another. Crom daba (talk) 21:35, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
@Anylai, can you find anything in Turkish on the possible differences between Balkan Gagauz and Rumelian Turkish? Crom daba (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Even more languages without ISO codes, part 5Edit

This next batch is of languages from lists other than Ethnologue and LinguistList. As before, I've tried to vet them all beforehand, but I will have doubtlessly made some mistakes. NB if you want to find more: I've avoided dealing with most of the Loloish languages, because all the literature seems to be in Chinese. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Australian languagesEdit

Tasmanian languagesEdit

Western Tasmanian:
Northern Tasmanian:
Northeastern Tasmanian:
  • Northeastern, Pyemmairre language (aus-pye)   Done
    alt names/varieties: Plangermaireener, Plangamerina, Cape Portland, Ben Lomond, Pipers River
  • North Midlands, Tyerrernotepanner language (aus-tye) — Bowern considers this a dialect; perhaps we should just trust her
  • Lhotsky/Blackhouse Tasmanian language (aus-lbt) — the worst name in Bowern's set!
    I'm not sure... the very language is "reconstructed" by Bowern on the assumption that three wordlists (of which only two make it into the name) attest the same language, although apparently none of the three bothered to name the language. The chance of someone "would run across [a word in] it and want to know what it means" seems nonexistent. If we wanted to host the wordlists, we could do that in an appendix or on Wikisource. - -sche (discuss) 16:09, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Bowern's methods are scientific; but I would feel better if more than one scholar was saying there was one language in this set of wordlists, the way that for e.g. Port Sorrell, Dixon & Crowley and Glottolog agree that there is a unit/lect there. - -sche (discuss) 16:55, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
and what of "Norman Tasmanian"? - -sche (discuss)
Eastern Tasmanian:
Oyster Bay (Big River, Paredarerme/Paritarami, Lairmairrener, Lemerina)? - -sche (discuss)   Done as aus-par
Little Swanport? - -sche (discuss)   Done as aus-lsw

@-sche, back when I suggested these Australian languages, I included the codes for the Tasmanian languages that Bowern (2012) teased out of various wordlists. At the time, I was ignorant of the fact that there is an ISO code, xtz, for a language called "Tasmanian", and we have a few words in it. There was no single Tasmanian language, so I think this code should be retired and the words sorted into their respective languages by Bowern's scheme. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:28, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Other needed codesEdit

Here are other languages we might need codes for: - -sche (discuss) 05:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

  • Indanga (Kɔlɔmɔnyi, Kɔlɛ, Kasaï Oriental) (bnt-ind?)
    It lacks a Wikipedia article but is documented by Jacobs, Texte et lexique indanga (2002). fr.Wikt already has a word from it. OTOH, fr.WP considers it a regional variant of Tetela. And fr.Wikt does have a tendency to treat dialects as language, also splitting e.g. Alsatian German from Alemannic German, Hoanya from Papora, etc. - -sche (discuss) 05:21, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
    Well, it's definitely part of the dialect continuum known in Guthrie as C.70, which has 8 ISO codes that cover it rather poorly (this is a typical situation with Bantu languages, which really need their own overhaul at some point). I see that its word for "water" is bash in that reference, rather different than Tetela proper ashi. We have to draw lines somewhere, and I can't figure out where Indanga would be merged, so I suppose a new code is in order. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
      DoneΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:58, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Laze language
    Many sources seem to accept the existence of three Naish "languages" and we have codes for the other two (though Na (called here "Narua") lacks a WP article, as the editors there seem unconvinced by its separateness).   Done (as tbq-laz) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:58, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Ma(') Pnaan (poz-map?), also known by the exonyms Punan Malinau and Punan Segah, a language of Borneo / East Kalimantan, summarized by Antonia Soriente here and elsewhere. Compare the other things listed at Punan language.


Maridan [zmd], Maridjabin [zmj], Marimanindji [zmm], Maringarr [zmt], Marithiel [mfr], Mariyedi [zmy], Marti Ke [zmg]: should these be merged? References speak of a singular Marrithiyel language. - -sche (discuss) 21:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

August 2016Edit

Some more missing American languagesEdit

Here are a few more North American languages for which we could add codes:

  • Akokisa (nai-ako). WP says it is attested certainly in two words in Spanish records (Yegsa "Spaniard[s]", which Swanton suggests is similar to Atakapa yik "trade" + ica[k] "people"; and the female name Quiselpoo), and possibly in more words in a wordlist by Jean Béranger in 1721 (if the wordlist is not some other language).
  • Algonquian–Basque pidgin (crp-abp). Wikipedia has a sample. The Atlas of Languages of Intercultural Communication, citing Bakker, says it was spoken from at least 1580 (and perhaps as early as 1530s) through 1635, and "only a few phrases and less than 30 words attributable to Basque were written down" (though apparently more words, attributable to other sources, were also recorded).
  • Guachichil (Cuauchichil, Quauhchichitl, Chichimeca) (nai-gch or, if Guachí is added as sai-gch, perhaps nai-gcl to prevent the two similarly-named lects from being mixed up by only typoing the initial n vs s), apparently sparsely attested.
  • Concho (nai-cnc). The Handbook of North American Indians, volume 10, says "three words of Concho [...] were recorded in 1581 [and] look like they may be [...] Uto-Aztecan".
  • Jumano (Humano, Jumana, Xumana, Chouman, Zumana, Zuma, Suma, and Yuma) (nai-jmn). The Handbook says "It has been established that the Jumano and Suma spoke the same language. Three words have been recorded" of it.

and from South America:

  • Peba / Peva (sai-peb), said by Erben to more properly by called Nijamvo, Nixamvo. Spoken in "the department of Loreto" in Peru. Attested in wordlists by Erben and Castelnau, which Loukotka provides, and which disagree with each other substantially: munyo (Erben) / money (Castelnau) "canoe, small boat"; nero (E) / yuna (C) "demon"; nebi (E) / nemey (C) "jaguar"; teki (E) / tomen-lay (C) "one", manaxo (E) / nomoira (C) "two"; etc. I would even consider that one might not be the same language as the other... what's with these languages that survive in disparate wordlists? lol.
  • possibly Saynáwa: fr.Wikt grants a code to this variety of Yaminawá language, described here (see also [3]).

- -sche (discuss) 04:04, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Support all except possibly Akokisa. I think it's a dialect of Atakapa, and that the wordlist is very likely not being linked correctly. That said, it's so few words, that there's no real reason not to accept it as a separate language, just to be conservative about it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Good point about Akokisa. (I am reminded that you had mentioned its dialectness earlier; sorry I forgot!) The wordlist, labelled only with a tribal name per WP, is possibly plain Atakapa, but Yegsa is supposedly recorded as specifically Akokisa; OTOH that doesn't rule out that Akokisa is a dialect. Indeed, M. Mithun's Languages of Native North America treats as dialects Akokisa, Eastern ("the most divergent, [...] known from a list of 287 entries") and Western ("the best documented. Gatschet recorded around 2000 words and sentences, as well as texts [...] Swanton recorded a few Western forms", all published in 1932 in a dictionary). I suppose the benefit to treating it as a dialect would be that we could context-label Yegsa and Quiselpoo as {{lb|aqp|Akokisa}} and then Béranger's forms as {{lb|aqp|possibly|Akokisa}} without needing to agonize over which header to put them under. - -sche (discuss) 15:31, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

September 2016Edit


Not sure if there should be separate entries (doodad) – Jberkel (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jberkel It doesn't make sense to merge well attested headwords. Even alternate spellings are given their own pages, not merged into a single canonical entry. --Danielklein (talk) 22:36, 26 February 2020 (UTC)
Oh, that that four years ago, I think I have now a better understanding of how this thing works :) Still, these entries should probably be changed so that there is one main entry, with the remaining ones listed as alternative forms or synonyms, to avoid duplication. – Jberkel 22:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Judeo-Arabic lectsEdit

We currently have Judeo-Arabic, but also Judeo-Tunisian Arabic (ajt) and Judeo-Moroccan Arabic (aju). The Arabic lects they draw from are all considered separate L2s, which perhaps supports this arrangement, but I don't know how different they all actually are, and it seems worth having a discussion on this. @Wikitiki89Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:37, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm actually in favor of merging all of Arabic into one language. This would work similarly to how it works with Chinese. But in the past when I brought this up, there seemed to be too much opposition to the idea. As it is stands, the spoken Judeo-Arabic dialects deserve the same treatment as other spoken Arabic dialects. Judeo-Arabic (jrb) itself, however, can be merged with Arabic (ar), because it is essentially the same language as Classical Arabic expect for the fact that it is written in the Hebrew alphabet. But because of the difference in writing system, this merger would not really bring much benefit. --WikiTiki89 23:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
@Fay Freak mentions Judeo-Yemeni Arabic, [jye], and seems to support merger into the topolectal codes. I really don't know what the best solution is, and I await the day when we have Arabic contributors who want to take the lead on making Chinese-style tables and maps where we can list all known dialectal forms — but in the mean time, this is a festering mess. @פֿינצטערניש, Fenakhay, M. I. Wright may be interested as well. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:24, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
I did not notice this section; yes, I cannot oppose it. I just mentioned a priori concerns since I never specifically read or listened to Judeo-Arabic, and I thought “who could? would he even notice?”, which is why I said “The Jews might deal with it themselves”. Just on the other hand one might conclude something from the absence of information. “Pleading ignorance”, “to deny claims on the basis of lack of knowledge”. Fay Freak (talk) 18:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
In some places, they are very different: following the qeltu/gelet division, Muslim Baghdadi Arabic is a South Mesopotamian dialect, but Jewish and Christian Baghdadi Arabic are both North Mesopotamian dialects (though also distinct from the Jewish sociolects of North Mesopotamia). But this just underlines the need for a template that can show each city or oasis or religious group in a city alongside all the others. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:58, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Agreed that Judeo-Arabic is very often considerably different from the Muslim and Christian dialects. It's also typically written in the Hebrew alphabet, and it might be best to keep it separate, for now. It should be understood that Judeo-Arabic as a heading refers to literary Arabic with Hebrew letters, and it's probably not a bad idea to point Judeo-Arabic head words to their Arabic-letter equivalents.
Should we have more active Jewish contributors from Arabic-speaking communities in the future who contribute Judeo-Arabic entries, they can and should feel free to work out among themselves how to handle the many forms of Judeo-Arabic, and we should support their decision if and when this happens. IMO.
I'm not against collapsing literary Judeo-Arabic with our main Arabic entries, as long as the entries remain. But I will say that there is a unique vocabulary to Judaism that might still warrant keeping Judeo-Arabic separate until we have more competent Judeo-Arabic contributors. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 22:37, 5 April 2020 (UTC)


As can be seen at w:Nkore-Kiga language, Kiga [cgg] should definitely be merged into Nyankore [nyn]. Unfortunately, this might require a rename to something that is both hyphenated and considerably less common that just plain "Nyankore" (though that is, strictly speaking, merely the name of the main dialect). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:21, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure. WP suggests the merger was politically motivated, but many reference works do follow it. Ethnologue says there as "Lexical similarity [of] 78%–96% between Nyankore, Nyoro [nyo], and their dialects; 84%–94% with Chiga [cgg], [...and] 81% with Zinza [zin]" (Kiga, meanwhile, is said to be "77% [similar] with Nyoro [nyo]"), as if to suggest nyn is about as similar to cgg as to nyo, and indeed many early references treat Nkore-Nyoro like one language, where later references instead prefer to group Nkore with Kiga. Ethnologue mentions that some authorities merge all three into a "Standardized form of the western varieties (Nyankore-Chiga and Nyoro-Tooro) [...] called Runyakitara [...] taught at the University and used in internet browsing, but [it] is a hybrid language." (For comparison, Ethnologue says English has 60% lexical similarity to German.) - -sche (discuss) 00:16, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Itneg lectsEdit

See w:Itneg language. All the dialects have different codes, but we really should give them a single code and unify them. I came across this problem with the entry balaua, which means "spirit house" (but I can't tell in which specific dialect). It's also known as Tinggian (with various different spellings), and this may be a better name for it than Itneg. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:09, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

October 2016Edit

Merge Category:Chinese hanzi and Category:Chinese Han charactersEdit

What distinguishes these two? —suzukaze (tc) 03:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

If there is no meaningful difference between these, I propose keeping Category:Chinese Han characters as it is managed by {{poscatboiler}} and merging Category:Chinese hanzi into it. —suzukaze (tc) 04:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

@Wyang, Atitarev, is there a difference between Category:Chinese hanzi and Category:Chinese Han characters, or can Category:Chinese hanzi be merged into Category:Chinese Han characters as suzukaze proposes? - -sche (discuss) 00:27, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
They can be merged, IMO. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:52, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
(reviving this discussion after almost three years) Merge per Suzukaze-c's proposal above. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Move template:langEdit

to something more sensible like "template:text"? lang could be used to display the language name from a language code whenever "there is no other template (like {{derived}} or {{cog}}) that can be used instead". --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 14:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

@Giorgi Eufshi: Or {{textlang}}? That'd make it very clear. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
It also has 'face' and 'sc' parameters. Maybe {{textlangfacesc}}? --Dixtosa (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: (There's no need to be facetious; I responded, didn't I?) {{text}} is fine. What does the |face= parameter do? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
I was just making a point. hope no feelings were hurt )) My implicit question was: why do you feel lang suffix is necessary? It's not like this is the only template that can work with languages. --Dixtosa (talk) 16:59, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@Dixtosa: I just figured that it made its use clearer, that it's a template that marks the language of the text it encloses. But I really don't mind what it's called. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Question: I have used {{lang}} on talk pages. Would a bot convert these instances to whatever template name is chosen as a replacement for {{lang}}? — Eru·tuon 17:00, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

I think it should not be moved since its equivalent on Wikipedia has this name. —suzukaze (tc) 07:30, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

Deletion debateEdit

We could also try orphaning it instead. I believe there are many uses that could be replaced with other templates. Try orphaning it and see how far we get. —CodeCat 14:13, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Oppose: I use this template frequently for the text of quotations, which helps screen readers know what language the text is in; also, it's needed for display purposes sometimes, like wrapping text in {{lang|de|sc=Latf|…}} to display German text in Fraktur. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:11, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
We have other templates for quotations, that are more suited to that specific task. —CodeCat 21:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I don't think I'm aware of them. Could you link to them, please? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 09:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
{{quote}} and various other templates beginning with "quote". —CodeCat 14:13, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
And to mention a word without linking to it, you can put it in the 3rd positional parameter of {{l}} or {{m}}, thus: {{m|de||dass}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
@Aɴɢʀ: Thanks; I was already aware of and do already use {{m}} and {{l}} like that.
@CodeCat: I frequently find those templates to be flawed; they can't handle the quotation of works with unusual internal structure (Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, with its hierarchically organised propositions, is a modern example). Unless there is something that can perform the function of {{lang}} without the problems of the quote- templates, I shall have to oppose this orphaning. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:31, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
Can you give an example? —CodeCat 14:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat: Sorry, an example of what? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:34, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
An example of a case where no other existing template works. —CodeCat 14:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I confess to not being very experienced with those templates (the bad experiences I've had have been other editors trying to shoehorn existing, manually-written citations into them). Maybe one or another of those quote- templates could cope with the TLP; I wouldn't know. Could any of them cope with the modern translation of a scholion by one ancient author, commenting on the work of another ancient author, appearing in a volume of translated works of ancient authors (writing on a common theme), with the texts emended by different modern emendators, the volume as a whole edited by a modern editor, and that volume constituting one part of a series which itself has a different modern general editor? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:12, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
That has nothing to do with what either {{quote}} or {{lang}} does. I suggest you familiarize yourself with these templates before commenting further. DTLHS (talk) 15:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
@DTLHS: My mistake. I thought CodeCat was only referring to {{quote-book}} and the like. I was not aware of the existence of {{quote}}. @CodeCat: My apologies; I misread what you wrote. {{quote}} is great; I'll use that instead of {{lang}} from now on. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:48, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

carry a torch forEdit

Move to carry a torch, making sure that the definition is appropriate for usage both with and without for. A redirect from [[carry a torch for]] to carry a torch would be fine with me. At present the redirect goes the other way. DCDuring TALK 14:40, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Attestation of use without for is at Citations:carry a torch for. DCDuring TALK 15:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Category:English and other topical categories about languagesEdit

It would be nice to have a name that makes it more obvious that this is a topical category. How about Category:English linguistics, and for the larger languages subcategories like Category:English grammar, Category:English orthography, etc.? I’m open to suggestions, as some people don’t like including things relating to writing or standardised language under linguistics. Another issue is that the hub categories (without language codes) would follow the same format as non-topical categories, but I still think it’s clearer than just English.

And how about parent categories for language families, like Category:Germanic linguistics? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

November 2016Edit

Paraguayan Guaraní [gug]Edit

I just noticed that we have this for some reason. Guaraní is a dialect continuum that is quite extensive, both in inter-dialect differences and in geography, and certain varieties have been heavily influenced by Spanish or Portuguese. That said, our Guaraní [gn] content is, as far as I can tell, pretty much entirely on Paraguayan Guaraní, which for some reason has a different code, [gug]. My attention was brought to this by User:Guillermo2149 changing L2 headers (I have not reverted his edits, but they do cause header-code mismatch). We could try splitting up the Guaraní dialects, but it would hard to choose cutoffs and would definitely confuse potential editors, of which we have had more since Duolingo released a Guaraní course. I think the best choice is to merge [gug] into [gn] and mark words extensively for which dialects or countries they are used in. @-scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

  •   Support [gn] and [grn] are the codes of the macrolanguage, [gug] is the code for the specific dialect spoken in Paraguay, also, until now, I haven't found any [gn] lemma to be out of [gug]. --Guillermo2149 (talk) 01:52, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  •   Support. — Ungoliant (falai) 11:00, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  Support merging gn and gug. - -sche (discuss) 14:33, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  •   SupportAɴɢʀ (talk) 15:02, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
  • @Guillermo2149, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, -sche, Angr: I see now that there are three more Guaraní dialect codes that we have: Mbyá Guaraní [gun], Chiripá [nhd], and Western Bolivian Guaraní [gnw]. I presume that we should merge these into [gn] as well, but the case is arguably less clear given that in our current state, all our [gn] lemmas are really [gug]. What do you all think? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
    I stick by my motto, "When in doubt, merge". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:53, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
    I think we should actually merge [gn] into [gug] and not viceversa. By the way, [gn] is the only one that should be merged, [gun] has similar and some equal words but the language is very different, and [nhd] is similar and very close to [gug] but it's slightly different and always confused with [gug] --Guillermo2149 (talk) 00:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Don't forget there's also [gui] and apparently also [tpj]. - -sche (discuss) 04:28, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Category:Westrobothnian lemmasEdit

See also: Wiktionary:Information_desk#Category:Westrobothnian_lemmas_-_Our_idiosyncrasy.3F

User:Korn posted this to rfv as a way of requesting verification of all the Westrobothnian entries. The justification was that the orthography doesn't seem to be one that has been actually used for the language. Given that the terms seem, for the most part, to be real and added in good faith, I would like to see if we can figure out a way to move them to the appropriate spellings rather than deleting them as unattested. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

Chuck described the situation correctly as I see it. It's about spelling, not terms. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 20:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

caught between the devil and the deep blue seaEdit

to: between the devil and the deep blue sea, with "caught etc." either deleted or made a redirect.

The prepositional phrase between the devil and the deep blue sea ("PP") appears alone (eg, in titles) and collocates with forms of verbs catch, be, put, find (oneself), leave, choose, stand, sit, lie. Caught up, stuck, and trapped are from verbs that seem to collocate with the PP almost exclusively in the past participle form (or adjective). The PP occurs after certain deverbal nouns, like choice. Alternative prepositions are less common: eg, in between, as.

And, finally, caught between the devil and the deep blue sea at OneLook Dictionary Search shows none of the indexed references there have the term caught + PP, whereas between the devil and the deep blue sea at OneLook Dictionary Search shows that a few unabridged dictionaries, an idiom dictionary, and a nautical dictionary have the PP. DCDuring TALK 15:25, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

@DCDuring: Move to between the devil and the deep blue sea, retaining caught between the devil and the deep blue sea as a hard redirect thereto. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:25, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

December 2016Edit

Moving Finno-Ugric families to Uralic familiesEdit

We don't recognize Finno-Ugric as a valid family; just Uralic. Hence urj is a valid code, but fiu isn't. Nevertheless, we're using fiu- as the prefix for four branches: fiu-fin for Finnic, fiu-mdv for Mordvinic, fiu-prm for Permic, and fiu-ugr for Ugric. I propose we use urj- for these instead, thus moving as follows:

  • fiu-finurj-fin
  • fiu-mdvurj-mdv
  • fiu-prmurj-prm
  • fiu-ugrurj-ugr

At the same time, we should move the codes for the corresponding protolanguages:

  • fiu-fin-prourj-fin-pro
  • fiu-mdv-prourj-mdv-pro
  • fiu-prm-prourj-prm-pro
  • fiu-ugr-prourj-ugr-pro

as well as the code for the etymology-only lect Proto-Finno-Permic:

  • fiu-fpr-prourj-fpr-pro

I suppose we can keep fiu-pro as an etymology-only variant of urj-pro if it's important. What do others think? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:29, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

That seems like a lot of disruption for a small theoretical benefit: we've always used codes like aus, cau, nai and sai that we don't recognize as families for making exception codes, so it's not a huge violation of our naming logic. In this case, though, it looks to me like we don't recognize fiu more because it's too much like urj, not because it's invalid, per se (though I don't know a lot on the subject). We do have gmw-fri rather than gem-fri, for instance. Of course, I'd rather follow those who actually work in this area- especially @Tropylium. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:59, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
I have no opinion on moving around family codes either way (it doesn't seem they actually come up much, whatever they are), but if we start moving around the proto-language codes, I would like to suggest simple two-part codes. Proto-Samic and Proto-Samoyedic are already smi-pro and syd-pro, so is there any reason we couldn't make do with e.g. fin-pro, fpr-pro, ugr-pro etc.?
Also, as long as we're on this topic, at some point we are going to need the following:
  • Proto-Mansi: (ugr-/urj-?)mns-pro
  • Proto-Khanty: (ugr-/urj-?)kca-pro
  • Proto-Selkup: (ugr-/urj-?)sel-pro
No rush though, since so far we do not even have separate codes for their subdivisions. The only distinction that comes up in practice is distinguishing Northern Khanty from Eastern Khanty (Mansi and Selkup only have one main variety that is not extinct or nearly extinct). --Tropylium (talk) 10:53, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
There is, actually, a reason: our exception codes are designed to avoid conflict with the ISO 639 codes, so they start with an existing ISO 639 code or a code in the qaa-qtz range set aside by ISO 639 for private use. fin is one of the codes for the Finnish language. fpr and ugr are apparently unassigned- for now. As for the three proto-language codes, those don't need a family prefix because they already start with an ISO 639 code. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:06, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
The only codes in the qaa-qtz range we actually use are qfa as a prefix for otherwise unclassified families and qot for Sahaptin (a macrolanguage that wasn't given an ISO code of its own), right? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
Right. And I didn't notice that we used qot although it is not an ISO code; it seems we followed Linguist List in using it. For consistency, I suggest changing it to fit our usual scheme, so nai-spt or similar (nai-shp is already in use as the family code). - -sche (discuss) 05:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Support, for consistency. fiu is different from nai, because fiu is [a supposedly genetic grouping which is] agreed to be encompassed by a higher-level genetic family which also has an ISO code (urj), and that code can be used if we drop fiu. nai and sai are placeholders rather than genetic groupings, and they're useful ones, because If we dropped them we'd had to recode everything as qfa- (and might conceivably run out of recognizable/mnemonic codes at that point). - -sche (discuss) 05:10, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Support per -sche, both the main issue being suggested here, as well as recoding Sahaptin. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:57, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I've recoded Sahaptin and all the Finno-Ugric lects except fiu-fin / fiu-fin-pro which requires moving a lot of categories, which I will get to later. - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Now there are lots of module errors in Cat:E as a result of these language code changes. It might be easiest to fix them by bot. @DTLHS, what do you think? — Eru·tuon 22:45, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. DTLHS (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon I've done a bunch of them- I think the reconstructions should be fixed by hand. DTLHS (talk) 23:22, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Three incorrect language codes remain, I think: fiu-ugr, fiu-fpr-pro, urj-fin-pro. I couldn't figure out what fiu-fpr-pro should be; it seems to refer to Proto-Finno-Permic, but I searched various language data modules and didn't find a match. Is there someone who can look through and fix the remaining module errors that relate to incorrect language codes? @Tropylium, @Angr, @-sche? — Eru·tuon 04:52, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Proto-Finno-Permic is an etymology-only language (and a kind of a legacy concept) that we encode as a variety of Proto-Uralic, if that helps. --Tropylium (talk) 13:58, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
The categories were easy to deal with: you just change the {{derivcatboiler}} to {{auto cat}} and the template plugs in the correct language code, if it exists. That also makes it a quick way to check whether there is a correct language code. by the time I finished that, there were only a dozen or so entries left in CAT:E due to everyone else's efforts, so I finished off the remainder by hand. It would have been easier if there hadn't been hundreds of other module errors cluttering up CAT:E- yet another reason for you to be more careful. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I apologise for not catching and fixing those uses at the time I renamed the codes. I searched all pages on the site for each of the old codes, and some pages turned up [including pages where the codes were used inside some templates, and I fixed those pages], so I forgot to also do an "insource:" search to catch other uses inside templates like {{m}}. We so rarely change language codes compared to changing language names. - -sche (discuss) 23:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

be glad to see the back ofEdit

to: see the back of

There are numerous alternative wordings to this, especially the be glad to portion of it, which could be, for example, I'll have no regrets when I.

As usual we lack a panoply of desirable redirects for the current version of the idiom. We should create many, especially for see his|her|their|my|your|our back(s). A usage example should include be glad to and possessive forms of nouns, eg, guest's back, Idi's back. DCDuring TALK 15:33, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

January 2017Edit


*aiginaz...should the descendants listed here be moved to *aiganaz ? Leasnam (talk) 03:34, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

This is really a question about the shape of the strong past participle in general. -inaz shows up in Old Norse, while -anaz appears in Gothic and West Germanic. The Old Norse form has made some people reconstruct -inaz for Proto-Germanic as well, but I'm not sure if that's right. The ending never seems to trigger umlaut, even though you'd expect it to - Old Norse has no problem with umlaut in the singular forms of verbs, so there's no reason it would be levelled out here. —CodeCat 14:01, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
I've reduced it to an alt form of the other spelling, which has more content. - -sche (discuss) 22:30, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

rubber-chicken dinnerEdit

to rubber chicken. Other dictionaries in OneLook have rubber chicken, not rubber-chicken dinner. There are abundant other collocations of rubber chicken both as a substantive and in attributive use. One common one is "rubber-chicken circuit". Examples of other nouns following rubber-chicken are lunch, banquet, affair, meal, fundraiser. Substantive use can be found in usages such as: Fortunately we'll spare everyone the rubber chicken and the speeches and simply acknowledge the guidance and vision of the world's best agent/coach/editor.

Rubber chicken is not identical to rubber (rubbery) + chicken either, though that is its origin. It specifically refers to the kind of organizational meals-with-speeches that crowd a politician's schedule, but also characterize conventions, off-site meetings, etc. DCDuring TALK 13:39, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

Merger into ScandoromaniEdit

I propose that the Para-Romani lects Traveller Norwegian, Traveller Danish and Tavringer Swedish (rmg, rmd and rmu) be merged into Scandoromani. TN, TD and TS are almost identical, mostly differing in spelling (e.g. tjuro (Sweden) vs. kjuro (Norway) meaning 'knife', gräj vs. grei 'horse' etc.). WP treats them as variants of Scandoromani. My langcode proposal could be rom-sca, or maybe we could just use rmg, which already has a category. -- 20:19, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

February 2017Edit

Chinese Pidgin English [cpi]Edit

This is not a separate language at all, it's just English with different grammar and some loanwords, but other than that it's completely intelligible with standard English. As such, it should be moved to Category:Chinese English. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 15:19, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

That's not at all the impression I get from Chinese Pidgin English. It seems to be a distinct language to me, as much as any other English-based pidgin. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
We did delete Hawaiian Pidgin English in the past though (see Template talk:hwc). I don't see how this case is any different. -- Pedrianaplant (talk)
I know we did, but I didn't participate in that discussion (only 3 people did), and I disagree with it too, probably even more strongly than I disagree with merging cpi. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:02, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Basically, this is a terminological problem. There may have been a true pidgin in each of these cases, but it has not been recorded. What is called a pidgin in many descriptive works is instead a dialect of English that is very easy to understand, nothing like the real English-based pidgins and creoles that I have studied. If you look at the actual quotations used to support lemmas in Chinese Pidgin English, you find that it is Chinese English. Support merge, but leave [cpi] as an etymology-only code. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:16, 8 February 2017 (UTC)
  • At least some texts seem very distinct, to the point of unintelligibility; consider "Joss pidgin man chop chop begin" (Whedon's translator begins chopping things? or "god's businessman begins right away"?). On the other hand, other sentences given by Wikipedia are quite intelligible...and possibly not attestable under the stricter CFI to which English is subject. I'm not sure what to do. (Our short previous discussion also didn't reach a firm resolution.) - -sche (discuss) 17:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
    I mean, I use joss and chop chop in English normally (having grown up in a fairly Chinese environment likely has something to do with that)... and I think that was chosen as an especially extreme example. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:32, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

March 2017Edit


Nominated for merger into one-up by User:Ultimateria. I oppose this proposed merge, because I believe that the primary use of "one-up" is with respect to the concept of one-upmanship (which never uses the number "1"), while the primary means of referring to the video-game usage is with the number, not the letter. I see no advantage to merging if that leads to conflation of meanings, or leads to the lesser-used variation housing the meaning of a particular definition. bd2412 T 02:57, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

You're right, but I nominated it because I saw the same sense across two entries. The translations need to be merged, and one has to be established as the alt spelling. Have I been using this category wrong? Ultimateria (talk) 10:16, 5 March 2017 (UTC)
I've merged the video game senses into 1-up. Ultimateria (talk) 21:57, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Appendix:Australian English terms pertaining to money and wealthEdit

Too much granularity? A merge into Appendix:Australian English vocabulary might be appropriate. Perhaps simply a rename would suffice. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:34, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Merged. - -sche (discuss) 01:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: some of the smaller appendices at Appendix:Australian English vocabulary#See_also could probably also be merged... - -sche (discuss) 01:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
@-sche: Thanks for pointing those out. From a cursory glance, I would definitely support the merger of animals, body parts, clothing, food and drink, motoring, people, smoking, and the toilet, all into the main appendix. Do you agree? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:29, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

April 2017Edit

More unattested languagesEdit

The following languages have ISO codes, but those codes should be removed, as there is no linguistic material that can be added to Wiktionary. This list is taken from Wikipedia's list of unattested languages, but I have excluded languages which are not definitively extinct (and thus which may have material become available). If there was any reliable source I could find corroborating the WP article's claim of lack of attestation, it is given after the language. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:15, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

  • Aguano language [aga]
    Unclear if it even existed per The Indigenous Languages of South America: A Comprehensive Guide (Campbell and Grondona).
  • Barbacoas language [bpb] (the Wikipedia article has a discussion of the conflation of this unattested language with Pasto, which needs a code; for clarity, I think this [bpb] should be retired and an exceptional code made explicitly for Pasto)
  • Dek language [dek]
  • Giyug language [giy]
    AIATSIS has the following to say: "According to Ian Green (2007 p.c.), this language probably died before the 1920's and neighbouring groups in the Daly claim it was the language of Peron Island which was linguistically and perhaps culturally distinctive from the nearby mainland societies. Black & Walsh (1989) say that this may or may not have been a dialect of Wadiginy N31."
  • Mawa language (Nigeria) [wma] (We call this "Mawa", if removed, [mcw] Mahwa (Mawa language (Chad) can be renamed to the evidently more common spelling "Mawa".)
  • Moksela language [vms]
    Charles Grimes says in Spices from the East: Papers in Languages of Eastern Indonesia: "This speech variety has been extinct since 1974, when the last speaker died. No clues other than the name of a stream east of Kayeli called Moksela, give any indication as to where it was spoken or what it was like. If it was spoken from the stream by that name eastward, then chances are likely that it was also a variety of the Kayeli language. People in the Kayeli area remember nothing more than the name of the language, who in the community spoke it [] " (I cannot view beyond this in the Google Books preview.)
    "...who in the community spoke it before they died, and that it was somehow different enough to have its own identity." is the rest of the sentence, I managed to coax Google into telling me. The name seemed familiar, as if it had been in one of the wordlists I've been looking at recently, but I just went back over them and searched through various other sources and indeed the only mentions of it I find all just say it's extinct and not recorded; how sad. Removed. - -sche (discuss) 08:19, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Nagarchal language [nbg]
    Appendix I in The Indo-Aryan Languages records this language as being a subdialect of Dhundari [dhd] and the 1901 Indian Census concurs; this is at odds with its description as an unattested Dravidian language, but the geographical specifications seem to match up.
  • Ngurmbur language [nrx]
    AIATSIS says: "Harvey (PMS 5822) treats Ngomburr as a dialect of Umbukarla N43, but in Harvey (ASEDA 802), it is listed as a separate language." Nicholas Evans confirms in The Non-Pama-Nyungan Languages of Northern Australia that it is unattested.
  • Tremembé language [tme]
  • Truká language [tka]
  • Wakoná language [waf]
  • Wasu language [was]
    Unclassified due to its absence of data per The Indigenous Languages of South America: A Comprehensive Guide (Campbell and Grondona).

  • In this vein, Makolkol [zmh] is claimed to be extinct (per Wurm 2003, after having 7 speakers in 1988) and apparently unattested (per Stebbins 2010). Harald Hammarström and Sebastian Nordhoff accept this conclusion in Melanesian Languages on the Edge of Asia, but it may be a cautionary tale instead, because an article in LoopPNG from 2016 says five Makolkol still live, and even provides words(!), saying it is related to Simbali: "mam, meaning father, and nan, meaning mother". A 2005 article in Anthropological Linguistics (volume 47, page 77) agrees on the relation to Simbali: " [] Makolkol (extinct), [] is locally understood to have been a 'mixed language' combining Simbali and Nakanai (an Austronesian language on the northern side of New Britain)." I suppose the code should be left alone for now, pending further data. (There were widely varying estimates of how many speakers it had earlier in the 20th century, and fanciful tales of who they were, "headhunters" or "giants" who "lived in trees" and who no white person had survived meeting at first.) - -sche (discuss) 08:43, 10 May 2017 (UTC)


The Yenish "language" (which we call Yeniche) was given the ISO code yec, despite being clearly not a separate language from German. Instead, it is a jargon which Wikipedia compares to Cockney (which has never had a code) and Polari (which had a code that we deleted in a mostly off-topic discussion). The case of Gayle, which is similar, is still under deliberation at RFM as of now. Most tellingly, German Wiktionary considers this to be German, and once we delete the code, we should make a dialect label for it and add the contents of de:Kategorie:Jenisch to English Wiktionary. @-scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how that's most tellingly; I don't know about the German Wiktionary, but major language works frequently treat things as dialects of their language that outsiders consider separate languages.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
The (linked) English Wikipedia article even says "It is a jargon rather than an actual language; meaning, it consists of a significant number of unique specialized words, but does not have its own grammar or its own basic vocabulary." Despite the citation needed that follows, that sentence is about accurate, as such this should be deleted. -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 10:53, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
(If kept, it should be renamed.)
There are those who argue that Yenish should have recognition (which it indeed gets, in Switzerland) as a separate language. And it can be quite divergent from Standard German, with forms that are as different as those of some of the regiolects we consider distinct. Many examples from Alemannic or Bavarian-speaking areas are better considered Alemannic or Bavarian than Standard German. But then, that's a sign that it is, as some put it, a cant overlaid onto the local grammar, rather than a language per se. Ehh... - -sche (discuss) 03:22, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

rake over the coals and rake someone over the coalsEdit

What's the difference? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:19, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Apparently (Google n-grams) the term could be used with or without an object. The definition should be somewhat different. An example of use without a direct object is "to rake over the coals of failure". I don't know how to word this in a substitutable way. It seems to mean something like "to belabor (something negative (result, process), obvious from context) as if in reprimand". DCDuring (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2018 (UTC)


Merge senses “(Northern England) Same as -er in Standard English.” and “(Black English and slang) Used to replace -er in nouns.” Doesn’t this represent the same phenomenon? — Ungoliant (falai) 21:36, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I would just delete both: spelling final -er as -a isn't specific to any morpheme- the sound it represents is from a general feature of the phonology. For instance mother/mutha has had that last syllable all the way back to Proto-Indo-European, and I can't imagine what the -er/-a would be attached to even if it didn't. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:22, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Good point, I've reduced it to a mere see-also link to -er.   Done. - -sche (discuss) 16:23, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Move entries in CAT:Khitan lemmas to a Khitan scriptEdit

The Khitan wrote using a Siniform script. Are these Chinese transcriptions of Khitan? —suzukaze (tc) 02:22, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm a little confused about what's going on here. Are you RFV-ing every entry in this category? Or are you just looking for evidence that Khitan was written using this script? —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:45, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
The Khitans had their own script. These entries use the Chinese script. —suzukaze (tc) 17:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I understand that, but I don't understand what your goal is with this discussion. If you want to RFV every entry in the category, then I'd like to add {{rfv}} tags to alert anyone watching the entries. If you want to discuss what writing systems Khitan used, maybe with the goal of moving all of these entries to different titles, then I'm not sure RFV is the right place for the discussion. (Likewise with the Buyeo section below.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:55, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Moved to RFM. - -sche (discuss) 21:04, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

May 2017Edit

Some spurious languages to merge or remove, 2Edit

remove Adabe [adb]

Geoffrey Hull, director of research for the Instituto Nacional de Linguística in East Timor, notes (in a 2004 Tetum Reference Grammar, page 228) that "the alleged Atauran Papuan language called 'Adabe' is a case of the mistaken identity of Raklungu," a dialect (along with Rahesuk and Resuk) of Wetarese. He notes (in The Languages of East Timor, Some Basic Facts) that only Wetarese is spoken on the island, and Studies in Languages and Cultures of East Timor likewise says "The three Atauran dialects—with the northernmost of which the dialect of nearby Lirar is mutually intelligible—are unquestionably Wetarese, and not dialects of Galoli, as Fox and Wurm suggest for two of them (n. 32). The same authors refer (ibidem) to a supposedly Papuan language of Atauro, the existence of which appears to be entirely illusory." (The error appears to have originated not with Fox and Wurm but with Antonio de Almeida in 1966.) - -sche (discuss) 01:45, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

We could repurpose the code into one for those three Atauran varieties of Malayo-Polynesian Wetarese, Rahesuk, Resuk, and Raklu Un / Raklungu (the last of which Ethnologue does list as an alt name of adb, despite their erroneous family assignment of it), perhaps under the name "Atauran Wetarese" for clarity. - -sche (discuss) 01:52, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
remove Agaria [agi]

Glottolog makes the case that this is spurious. - -sche (discuss) 07:57, 31 May 2017 (UTC)


Arma (aoh) is also said to be "a possible but unattested extinct language"; I am trying to see if that means it is entirely unattested, or if there are personal/ethnic/place names, etc. - -sche (discuss) 09:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Also Maramba (myd)? (And many more at Spurious languages need to be checked, but some are not spurious, like Ammonite.) - -sche (discuss) 09:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
myd has been retired by the ISO and hence now also by us. - -sche (discuss) 07:47, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Aghu language

The VU Amsterdam report linked to here seems to indicate that one lect has been given multiple codes, and that "Jair" at least is spurious. Further research wouldn't hurt. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:24, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Categories in Category:LettersEdit

Can we come up with more descriptive names than Category:Aa please? —CodeCat 22:37, 14 May 2017 (UTC)


Apparently this is not a set category, despite its name seeming like one. User:Smuconlaw apparently intended it to be about things related to limbs. I think it should be renamed to more clearly reflect that. —CodeCat 17:35, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

What is a "set category"? — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
A category that contains items belonging to a particular set. See Category:List of sets. A characteristic of set categories is that they have plural names. —CodeCat 17:37, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm, I'm not sure what it's supposed to be. I was just following the example of other categories under "Category:Body" such as "Category:Buttocks", "Category:Face", "Category:Muscles", "Category:Organ systems", "Category:Skeleton", "Category:Skin", and "Category:Teeth". — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:44, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm currently working with User:-sche on a more permanent solution to issues like this. —CodeCat 19:00, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
OK, thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 22:10, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


This should be handled with {{liushu}}, since jiajie is one of the six categories (liushu). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 18:36, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Can both of these templates be renamed to include a language code? —CodeCat 19:01, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
{{jiajie}} should be merged with {{liushu}}, which could be renamed as {{Han liushu}}, following {{Han compound}} and {{Han etym}}. It might not be a good idea to use a particular language code because these templates are intended for use in multiple languages now. They used to be used under Translingual, but we have decided to move the glyph origin to their respective languages. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:22, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
You can use script codes as prefixes too. We have Template:Latn-def, Module:Cans-translit and such. —CodeCat 20:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Entries in CAT:Taos lemmas with curly apostrophesEdit

Many Taos entries use curly apostrophes to represent glottal stops. They should either use the easy-to-type straight apostrophe ' that many other languages use, or the apostrophe letter ʼ that Navajo and a few other languages use. - -sche (discuss) 21:36, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree. The headword template interprets the curly apostrophe as a punctuation mark (because it is), and automatically links words such as adùbi’íne as adùbiíne. (Personally, I think the apostrophe letter looks better, but there may be other considerations.) — Eru·tuon 21:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and I just learned of the Unicode character for the saltillo. But no entries use it, and I am averse to introducing yet another visually-almost-identical symbol to represent the glottal stop, next to the three (counting the curly apostrophe) mentioned above that are already in use, plus the ˀ that some entries use. - -sche (discuss) 02:23, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm in favor of standardizing on U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE for any language that uses an apostrophe-looking thing as a letter. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Probably reasonable for glottalizationy apostrophes. At least Skolt Sami uses ʹ U+02B9 MODIFIER LETTER PRIME for suprasegmental palatalization though, which should likely be kept separate. --Tropylium (talk) 16:55, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
I've moved quite a few of these; about 140 remain to be moved. - -sche (discuss) 04:49, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Category:E numbers to Category:European food additive numbersEdit

The Category:E language surely has numbers, which would require this category to be used. Other suggestions for the food additive category name would be welcome. Maybe "List of E numbers"? DTLHS (talk) 16:31, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

If we adopt a systematic naming scheme for topic and set categories as CodeCat and I have been discussing, then I guess it could be "Category:mul:set:E numbers" or "Category:Translingual:set:E numbers". However, independent of whether or not such prefixes ("Translingual:set:") come into use, a more intelligible name like the one you propose, replacing "E" with "European food additive", would be good. Other food-additive numbering schemes in use in Europe could also go in the same category. - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support. Very good find. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Disagree. They are not called European food additive numbers, they are E numbers. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:05, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
    @SemperBlotto: So what do you want to do about numbers in the E language? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
    I think you may be implying that the category should be something like mul:E numbers just in case any of our users think E is a language. I wouldn't object to that. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:12, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
    To be clear: E is a language, spoken in China. CAT:E language. (And like CAT:English numbers, it will have a "numbers" category someday when our coverage of it improves.) Perhaps a move should be postponed for a little while, though, while we see if we can come up with a systematic naming scheme for topic and set categories (see my talk page). - -sche (discuss) 18:33, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
    Since there's been no progress towards systematically changing how topic and set categories are named, this one does need to be renamed, because it does conflict with the expected 'numbers' category of the existing E language. Does anyone else want to weigh in on whether the name should be "Category:European food additive numbers" or "Category:mul:E numbers"? - -sche (discuss) 22:34, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

June 2017Edit

all it's cracked up to be - not all it's cracked up to beEdit

Redirect one towards the other. --Barytonesis (talk) 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

There are plenty of instances that don't include adjacent not (eg, not anything (also nothing) like what it was cracked up to be) and others that have no not (or any other negative) at all (eg, to send Ray and Isaac up there to see if it was what it was 'cracked up to be'.). Note that the second example does not have is/'s and also omits all. It also could be in the plural.
Thus it is not obvious what the lemma should be. cracked up to be is the core, but makes a poor lemma. DCDuring (talk) 00:04, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
This Books search shows that the active form can be found. DCDuring (talk) 00:20, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
We do have sense 4 at crack up that covers this in principle, but not in actuality for most users. DCDuring (talk) 00:22, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
@DCDuring: thanks for your input. You're one of the few contributors here interested in improving the English entries ahah.
Should we keep all it's cracked up to be as the lemma (and redirect the negative form to it), with notes explaining that it's often used in the negative (there's already one), and that it admits a fair amount of variation: "all" is not compulsory, there are instances of the active voice, the verb can be at a past tense, etc.?
Maybe you'll be interested in the case of "give a monkey's" as well, which I posted some time ago on that very same page? --Barytonesis (talk) 11:40, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
I can't think of a better simple solution than what you propose. It has the disadvantage that there is no place other than usage notes to give usage example of the major possible variations. It would probably not be helpful to give usage examples for all the forms anywhere on the entry
Another approach would be to have redirects to a senseid for sense 4 of crack up from all of the versions of this with or without all, with the various pronouns (∅, what), all the person pronouns, and various tenses and aspects of crack up for hundreds of redirects. Probably some are very rare/unattestable and could be omitted with no harm at all, but many would remain. And there would still be no place at crack up for the numerous usage examples either.
An idiom dictionary at OneLook has 1 lemma (at not what something is cracked up to be at OneLook Dictionary Search) and 14 or more redirects thereto. DCDuring (talk) 20:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Yes, what you (Barytonesis) propose sounds good. In general, I find it confusing when we take expressions that are usually negative and lemmatize and define them as positive expressions; if readers search for the negative form and don't notice they've been redirected, the risk that they'll think the phrase means the opposite of what it actually means seems high; but ah well. There should be redirects from not what it's cracked up to be, what it's cracked up to be, and probably even the forms with "be" (be all it's..., be what it's...) and "not be". - -sche (discuss) 20:55, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
I wonder where I can find the stop words (if the search engine even needs to have them) for search here. There might be some way to radically reduce the number of redirects. DCDuring (talk) 20:58, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
  • I have added usage examples and expanded the usage label for crack up#Verb (sense 4). For me that would be sufficient. Redirects are fine, but usage examples for the common collocations should be enough. DCDuring (talk) 22:45, 6 June 2018 (UTC)!

August 2017Edit

post mortemEdit

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification/English.

Google ngrams for post-mortem,post mortem,postmortem Google ngrams for ante-mortem,ante mortem,antemortem So Google says clearly antemortem and probably postmortem, Merriam-Webster says antemortem and postmortem, Oxford says ante-mortem and post-mortem and we say post mortem and antemortem. We should probably move post mortem to postmortem and make post mortem an alternative spelling entry for postmortem? I don't actually question the existence of any of these, but this seems like the best place to put this. I'm not sure it would be okay if I tried to move these pages myself (assuming I even can) and it might be better to have someone more experienced do that anyway because swapping pages can be confusing. W3ird N3rd (talk) 23:31, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

If you don't question the existence of any of them, RFV is not the right place. Accordingly, I've moved this discussion from WT:RFVE to WT:RFM. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I've somehow always overlooked this page. I don't think I've ever even been here before. I now notice it's in the bar at the top, but I guess I just always skimmed over it. This page move isn't going to be uncontroversial seeing that the dictionaries don't even agree, so this is the right place. I have a cheap paper dictionary, less than 10 years old that says "post-mortem". But I don't think we should blindly follow the dictionaries here. W3ird N3rd (talk) 01:16, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

it's a long storyEdit

Should perhaps be moved to long story? W3ird N3rd (talk) 06:42, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

In contrast to long story short, neither seems entryworthy to me. They are quite transparent. Checking long story at OneLook Dictionary Search, one notes that none of those references find it inclusionworthy, whereas long story short at OneLook Dictionary Search shows some coverage. DCDuring (talk) 11:01, 9 August 2017 (UTC)


Suggest merging with time bank, although that has an additional sense listed. Otherwise make this a cross-reference to time bank in the appropriate sense(s). — Paul G (talk) 06:03, 23 August 2017 (UTC)


sense: Noun: "(aviation) A large multi-engined aircraft. The term heavy normally follows the call-sign when used by air traffic controllers."

In the aviation usage AA21 heavy ("American Airline flight 21 heavy") the head of the NP is AA21, heavy being a qualifying adjective indicating a "wide-bodied", ergo "heavy", aircraft.

Move to noun with any adjustments required. DCDuring (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

September 2017Edit

Renaming meyEdit

We currently have it as "Hassaniya" (which we used to spell as Hassānīya; those macra were removed along the way, presumably by Liliana, although I don't see any discussion; MG deleted the old category once it was empty). To match the other colloquial Arabic languages, it should be "Hassaniya Arabic". (Note: if Arabic is merged, this will become moot.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:07, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

This seems a bit different from most of the other forms of Arabic which are "[Adjective referring to a place] Arabic", where just calling the lect "Libyan" (etc) would be more awkward. Still, I have no objection to a rename, though I don't have time to rename all the categories right now. I also notice that, while Hassaniya is probably still the most common spelling overall, it seems like Hassaniyya started to become more common around 2003. - -sche (discuss) 04:03, 29 December 2017 (UTC)


An IP has been repeatedly tagging this for speedy deletion on the grounds that it's the wrong script and that they've created an entry with the right script. Since this was created by a veteran editor, I feel we should consider merging the two entries if we decide to delete the Latin-script version. At any rate, I don't feel comfortable just deleting this without input from editors familiar with the language. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:11, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

@ZxxZxxZ created it, but I'm really not sure why. We have a longstanding standard that Aramaic entries should never be in Latin script. If there is an entry with the proper pagetitle and all the content, we can delete this. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:07, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
That's what I figured. My main concern was with deleting the content without knowing anything about the replacement entry (𐣬𐣤𐣣𐣡𐣭𐣣𐣱). I just now compared the two, and it appears that the IP copypasted the entire contents of the entry (even the |sc=Latn) to the new page without attribution. I don't have a font that displays that script so I'm completely in the dark here, but I don't trust this IP to know what they're doing, especially after reading the discussion on your talk page. Given the blatant copyvio, I think we're best off deleting the replacement entry and moving the old entry to the correct spelling so we can keep the edit history. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:10, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Hi guys, I was the creator of mhrbndq. Note that the word is attested in Hatran Aramaic, which is written in Hatran alphabet (not in the more widely used Aramaic alphabet). I don't know if there had been any discussion regarding Hatran Aramaic entries. But scholarly works usually avoid using the original script for such ancient, difficult to read, or barely attested scripts. If I remember correctly, the practice in Wiktionary have been to use the original script as the title, but keeping the letter-by-letter transliterations (mhrbndq in this case) as alternative forms. --Z 13:58, 28 September 2017 (UTC)
It turns out that there is actually a Unicode block for the Hatran alphabet. Of course, it was only added a couple of years ago, so it may not have much font support yet. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:42, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

I've now deleted the replacement entry as a copyright violation. If we decide this is the wrong spelling, we can move it to the correct one. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:24, 28 September 2017 (UTC)

October 2017Edit

Categories about country subdivisions to include the country nameEdit

This will include at least the following:

Categories for certain things that are located within these subdivisions will also be named, e.g. Category:Cities in Aomori (Prefecture)Category:Cities in Aomori Prefecture, Japan. —Rua (mew) 13:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Support. I oppose the existence of categories with language code like "en:" in the first place, but what is proposed here seems to be an improvement over the status quo. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I would have opposed a lot of these, but I was too late on the scene. DonnanZ (talk) 15:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The rename has been put on hold until there is a clear consensus either way. Please vote! —Rua (mew) 15:11, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Rua It looks sane to me if politics are let out. But why is Abkhazia in Georgia though it is an independent state, statehood only depending on factual prerequisites and not on diplomatic recognition which has nothing to do with it? Where does the Crimea belong to? (article Sevastopol is only in Category:en:Ukraine because it has not really been edited since 2014.) I can think of two solutions: First possibility: We focus on geographical and cultural constants. Second possibility: We focus on the actual political power. I disprefer the second slightly because it can mean much work in cases of war (i.e. how much the Islamic state holds etc., or say the current factions in Libya). But in neither case Abkhazia is in Georgia. But the first possibility does not even answer what the Crimea belongs to, i.e. I am not sure if it is historically correct to speak of the Crimea as Ukraine. And geographical terms are often fuzzy and subject to editorial decisions. All seems so easy if you start your concepts from the United States, which do not even have a name for the region they are situated in. And even for the USA your idea is questionable because the constituent states of the United States are states in their own right (Teilstaat, Gliedstaat in German), as is also the case for the Federal Republic of Germany and the Russian Federation partially (according to the Russian constitution only those of the 85 subjects are states which are called Republic, not the Oblasti etc.). Is Tatarstan Russia? Not even Russians can agree with such a sentence, as in Russia one sharply distinguishs русские and россияне, Россия and Российская федерация. Technically Ceuta and Melilla are in Morocco because Spain is not in Africa. Also, Kosovo je Srbija, and it would become just a coincidence if a place important in Serbian history is listed as X, Kosovo or X, Serbia. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 16:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Rua: Most of these categories like Category:en:Special wards in Tokyo are back on the {{delete}} list. I think these should be removed again for the time being. DonnanZ (talk) 18:02, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Starting with the above, I don't know how the Tokyo ward system works, but I imagine it's a subdivision of the city. In England wards are subdivisions in cities, boroughs, local government districts, and possibly counties. "Wards in" is the natural usage.
Municipalities similarly. For example in Norway there are hundreds of municipalities (kommuner) which are subdivisions within counties (fylker). Some of these can be large, especially in the north, but so are the counties in the north. To me "municipalities in" is the natural wording.
States and provinces in the USA and Canada: In nearly all cases it is unnecessary to add the country name as the names are unambiguous. The only exception I can think of is Georgia, USA. This could also apply to prefectures in Japan and states in India (is there a Punjab in Pakistan?). DonnanZ (talk) 18:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, there is, like there is in India. Maybe categorisations should be abundant? Cities can belong to Punjab as well as to Punjab, India, and the Crimea is part of administration of both the Russian Federation and the Republic Ukraine at least for some purposes in the Republic Ukraine. We can make the least thing wrong by adding Sheikh Zuweid (presuming it exists) as well to the Islamic State as to the Arab Republic of Egypt, because we do not want to judge morally and formally states and terror organizations are indistinguishable. On the other hand of course we need sufficient data to relate towns to administrative divisions and ISIS presumably does not publish organigrams. Palaestrator verborum (loquier) 19:44, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

December 2017Edit


CAT:Animals > ... > CAT:Bovines > CAT:Cattle, and there you have strange things happening: abattoir, beefsteak, bullfighting, cowboy, sirloin. --Barytonesis (talk) 23:02, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam, I don't really see what you want us to do about this. It's a somewhat unavoidable side effect of how our categorisation system works, in that terms related to cattle are not going to be animals themselves. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:28, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
This means that Category:Cattle should be terms for cattle, not related to cattle. —Rua (mew) 22:57, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Our categories could be one of the most interesting and innovative parts of this project, but not if we're going to be lazy like this and see such dilution as "unavoidable"... --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2017 (UTC)


I don't think "wiki" is a mass noun. DTLHS (talk) 03:17, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

No, but neither is the category for listing wikis. Maybe Category:Wiki culture or Category:Wiki terminology? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 07:16, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Our topical categories never contain "terminology" or "related" or anything like that. Such changes were rejected in the past. —Rua (mew) 22:23, 28 December 2017 (UTC)


This is a newly created (September 2017) topical category. It should be renamed to something that does not imply that it contains expressions that are directive. It contains terms that relate to direction or, more frequently, terms that can be confused with direction. I recognize that Direction would not be a suitable category name. I don't have any suggestion. It may be that the category is ill-conceived. DCDuring (talk)

I see nothing wrong with it. If it contained directive expressions, it would be called Category:English directives or similar. We have voted in the past to keep topical category naming distinct from other categories, so the naming scheme is considered indicative of its use/meaning/function. —Rua (mew) 20:37, 22 December 2017 (UTC)
I'm not surprised that you see nothing wrong, what with the cat scheme being otherwise so perfect.
I favor keeping topical categories as far way as possible from our other entry categories.
But, unlike other categories that have names that are plural in form, Category:en:Directives contains neither examples nor names of the referents of its category name, ie of directives. It contains a dog's breakfast of terms that the categorizer, User:, thought to be connected to some sense of the noun(?) directive. One mistake was to pick as name for a concept/category a de-adjectival noun. Probably the name was made plural to avoid confusion with the adjective.
If you can make sense of the rationale for the membership in the category of ban, bare minimum, beckoning, behest, besaiel, beseeching, bidding, bill, blacklist, blackmail, bloodlust, blueprint, booty call, boundary, boycott, breve, bribe, and bytecode, you, Gunga Din, are a better man than I. I am at a loss to understand the common element among these terms. Is each suppopsed to be a type of directive? If no one can come up with a better name for the category, or prune membership rationally, or split it into multiple comprehensible cateogries, or RfDO it, I will RfDO it. DCDuring (talk) 02:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
Bytecode in the sense of compiler directive! Really pushing it a bit. Equinox 02:49, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

January 2018Edit

Template:list helperEdit

Is {{list helper 2}} an improved version of {{list helper}}? Can all instances of {{list helper}} be converted to {{list helper 2}}? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:33, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Category:Currency, Category:CurrenciesEdit

I never noticed before, two separate categories for the same thing. I think a merger is in order, personally I prefer Category:Currencies. DonnanZ (talk) 21:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

This was discussed before. They aren't for the same thing, one is topical and the other is a set. —Rua (mew) 21:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Maybe the latter should be a subcat of the former? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
@Rua: Can you explain that? DonnanZ (talk) 21:29, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
One is for terms related to currency, one is for terms referring to currencies. —Rua (mew) 21:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
In that case each category should have a guide to what should go in it. I don't see anything at present. DonnanZ (talk) 21:36, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I see it in Category:en:Currency and Category:en:Currencies. —Rua (mew) 21:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
OK, I see it in the subcategories but not in the main categories. There would appear to be some confusion by editors between the two, like in Category:sv:Currency and Category:sv:Currencies (only one entry). DonnanZ (talk) 21:56, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
Not merged, they serve different functions. Whether this is ideal and whether topic vs set/list categories overall need clearer names remains to be resolved. - -sche (discuss) 17:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

ZIP CodeEdit

User:Largoplazo moved ZIP code to this spelling with the following edit summary:

  • This is a trademark, a brand name, of the U.S. Postal Service, for the U.S. version of what are generically known as "postal codes"

They also left the following comment on the talk page:

Rather than just jerking it (and the plural) back with a rude comment about how this isn't Wikipedia and how we're a descriptive dictionary, I thought I would bring it here so we can be sure we do it right. The problem is that determining relative usage of different case forms is rather difficult. Plus, there should be entries at both case forms, with one as the alt form. There are also other case-form entries such as zip code that were unaffected.

I should add that there's a 2008 RFD discussion linked to from the talk page. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:51, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

[4] This may help. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 23:02, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
This slightly improved Google N-gram (1960-2008)] shows that, in order of frequency in the sampled books the frequency order is zip code, ZIP code, Zip Code, ZIP Code, Zip code, ZIP CODE, with zip code being about 10 times more common than ZIP CODE and about 5 times more common than ZIP Code post 2000. There are also some solid-spelled versions, but they are much less common, though the most common zipcode is about as common as ZIP CODE.
It's so much better to have credible corpus-based facts than the speculations of the 2008 discussion. DCDuring (talk) 02:04, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
BTW, the collocation "international zip code" is suggestive that some English speakers think of zip code as including any post/postal code. DCDuring (talk) 03:18, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

February 2018Edit

Template:eggcorn of into Template:misconstruction ofEdit

...keeping the redirect. Or is there a sensible distinction between the two that we want to maintain? - -sche (discuss) 18:43, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I was hesitant to recreate CAT:English misconstructions, but labelling evolutionary stable strategy as an "eggcorn" seems like a stretch. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Oh wait, that's not what you're suggesting. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
I changed the eggcorn template to categorize into the misconstruction category, emptying Category:English eggcorns and Category:Vietnamese eggcorns, although that should be undone if there is some distinction I am missing that it would be good and feasible to maintain. - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, I feel that there's a semantic aspect to eggcorns that isn't really present in evolutionary stable strategy, trompe-d'œil or analysises. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
True, but that distinction seems a bit fuzzy; e.g., dominate is labelled an eggcorn (because it's homographic to a valid word?) while unfortunant is labelled a misconstruction. And evolutionary in evolutionary stable strategy is also a word. (But I'm not opposed to making a dinstinction; I'm just pointing out the issues with it, devil's-advocate-style.) - -sche (discuss) 19:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
@-sche: I agree that the distinction is fuzzy (in fact, I'd even say that the distinction between "misconstructed", "nonstandard" and "proscribed" is fuzzy: compare our treatment of developmentation, abortation and pronounciate). Still, I think it's not entirely without merit, although I would be hard pressed to give you a specific set of criteria.
I wouldn't call dominate an eggcorn, but without any quotation it's hard to judge anyway. In fact, I'm going to RFV it. not necessary: it's used indeed.
Another thing: I don't like the way idiosyncratic is used in our def of eggcorn. It seems to be used as a synonym of "odd, strange, peculiar, eccentric", but it shouldn't be. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
orange is a result of misconstruction of naranga, isn't it? But orange is certainly not nonstandard. (Other cases of loss of juncture are apron, newt, nickname) Though misconstructions may tend to be nonstandard (for all intensive purposes, at least), they can become standard over time, as with many "errors". DCDuring (talk) 20:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
It's specifically a rebracketing/metanalysis, which you could say is a type of misconstruction. However, I certainly wouldn't want to label orange as a misconstruction; that's true diachronically, but not synchronically. I do want to label it as a rebracketing, though. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
It's hard to find references rather than intuition to support classifying terms one way or another, but I suppose the difference between developmentation and pronounciate vs unfortunant and dominate is that I think the first two are intentional (jocular) errors and the second two are unintentional. If we keep the categories separate, should "eggcorns" be a subcategory of "misconstructions" or a "sibling category" on the same level (cross-linked)? - -sche (discuss) 20:39, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
And then there are entries like firstable which only say they're eggcorns in the etymology, not the definition... - -sche (discuss) 21:06, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Shortcut -> Wiktionary:ShortcutsEdit

Why is this in the singular? It just looks weird in the case of a title like this. (Somewhat irrelevant, extra issue: the page needs a lede to explain what a shortcut is.) PseudoSkull (talk) 05:23, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Support on both counts. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:23, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

March 2018Edit


In an almost ridiculous turn of events, this template should itself be merged into {{rfm}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 08:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it seems like {{rfm}} should default to "suggests that this ... be moved, merged or split" and should (does?) have a parameter to specify which one, and then {{merge}} and {{move}} and {{split}} should be shells that just consist of {{rfm|type=merge}} or the like. - -sche (discuss) 17:30, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
This should probably be done now, because I got confused looking at the template, not sure if what I was seeing was the output of the template, or an actual RFM message! —Rua (mew) 20:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Category:English non-idiomatic translation targetsEdit

I propose to rename this category to Category:English translation targets, so that we don't need to waste time to discuss whether each entry is idiomatic or not.--Zcreator alt (talk) 16:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

The issue is that technically, any English entry with a translation section is a translation target. This category is for a very small subset of those entries that would not be kept otherwise. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:24, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
The purpose of the category would be "terms which are mainly retained for the benefit of translation". However I am considered to launch a discussion to modify CFI to formally include these terms.--Zcreator alt (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I was under the impression that this category was supposed to correspond to the use of the "this entry is only here for translations" template, because an entry should only have a definition if it's idiomatic; and any entry with a definition is a normal entry (right?) and can have translations, either in the entry itself, or centralized in some synonym. I don't understand why this category seems to be used on pages that do have definitions; it seems like an error. Hence, it seems like we'd still have to make the same decision about idiomaticity, about whether or not to use that template. Hence, I see no benefit to the rename. (But Meta has pointed out a big drawback.) - -sche (discuss) 17:22, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
It may be a debate whether this category is useful at all - we don't have a categories for entries kept for COALMINE rule; and what the definition should be for entries kept as translation targets (imo we can alternatively treat them as normal entries and describe them literally e.g. cooked rice as "rice that is cooked" instead of using the translate only template, once we formally include them to CFI). Again, this should be discussed in a wider venue (like Beer parlour).--Zcreator alt (talk) 08:03, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Struck as the category is renamed.--Zcreator alt (talk) 04:03, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
42 entries in the category remain to be moved, after which the redirect should perhaps be deleted to discourage unwitting (e.g. HotCat) re-addition of entries to it. - -sche (discuss) 01:43, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Category:English words ending in "-gry"Edit

This is extremely trivial, not to mention something that could be found even if it were not categorised. I think that it suits an appendix much better, so I propose that its contents be moved to Appendix:English words ending in -gry. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

A benefit to having it as a category is that theoretically it ought to be addable by the headword templates examining the pagename (like "English terms spelled with Œ"), which, if implemented (...if it could be implemented without excessive memory costs), would allow it to be kept up to date automatically. - -sche (discuss) 17:16, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
That is true, but I don't really think we should be using headword templates to collate trivia. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:47, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Delete per proponent. --Per utramque cavernam 18:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

April 2018Edit

usa ug tulo ka sikatuloEdit

Should be split into usa and tulo ka sikatulo, both entries exist, so delete. Carl Francis (talk) 17:06, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

get it over withEdit

Merge with get over with --106 for now (talk) 08:21, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Shouldn't both of the above be redirects to get something over with? I don't remember ever hearing get over with, certainly not in the applicable sense. DCDuring (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
I haven't found any evidence that User:WurdSnatcher's 2015 move of get something over with to get over with was done pursuant to any proper request, like RfD or RfM. [Why w]Was he whitelisted? DCDuring (talk) 14:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
We should either delete get over with (my preference) or make it redirect to get something over with. And get it over with should simply redirect to get something over with, because one can say things like “Let’s get this over with”.  --Lambiam 05:35, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

in the midst ofEdit

The article name is "In the midst of", but the headword is "in the midst" (which redirects here when searched); usage notes states that "of" usually follows. It seems like the article is inconsistent with the title and should be moved to "in the midst". --SanctMinimalicen (talk) 22:57, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Renaming svmEdit

From ‘Molise Croatian’ to ‘Molise Slavic’. It seems most scholars in the field, excluding some in Croatia itself, have been switching to the latter name; see, for instance, the papers of Krzysztof Borowski or the more recent works of Walter Breu. The endonym is naš jezik (literally our language) or na-našo (literally in our (manner)), without any specific ethnonational designation; the other names are apparently recent impositions. For this see for instance Sujoldžić 2004:


Along with the institutional support provided by the Italian government and Croatian institutions based on bilateral agreements between the two states, the Slavic communities also received a new label for their language and a new ethnic identity — Croatian — and there have been increasing tendencies to standardize the spoken idiom on the basis of Standard Croatian. It should be stressed, however, that although they regarded their different language as a source of prestige and self-appreciation, these communities have always considered themselves to be Italians who in addition have Slavic origins and at best accept to be called Italo-Slavi, while the term »Molise Croatian« emerged recently as a general term in scientific and popular literature to describe the Croatian-speaking population living in the Molise.


Information about current scholarly usage is given by Walter Breu in the request for an ISO code here:


Slavomolisano: [] In scientific work, this name is predominantly used, either in its Italian form or in translations. As the language is "genetically" affiliated to the Serbo-Croatian macrolanguage with its dialectal continuum and the problems of its segmentation, a denomination, referring to one of the individual Standard languages of this group, e.g. Croatian or Bosnian, should be avoided, the more so, as its individual character is mainly due to the language contact with Italian and its dialects, especially that of Lower Molise.


Ethnologue, Glottolog, and SIL (as well as Wikipedia) all followed the ISO’s lead and list the language under ‘Slavomolisano’, the Italian form of ‘Molise Slavic’ (which would also be fine). AFAIK I’m the only contributor to Wiktionary in this language to date. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 19:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

If most scholars as well as Ethnologue, Glottolog, SIL, and Wikipedia all call it Slavomolisano, shouldn't we do the same, rather than call it Molise Slavic? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 11:46, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Sure, that would also be fine. The two are used pretty much interchangeably in scholarly publications (so the ISO note says ‘either in its Italian form or in translations’). It’s a bit of an odd situation, given the most prominent scholar in the field (Breu) submitted the language under ‘Slavomolisano’ to the ISO (hence the adoption by all the other organizations) but uses ‘Molise Slavic’ in his own recent English publications. But if you think it’s preferable to directly follow Ethnologue and the others I wouldn’t object. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 12:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
I’ll start switching this over to ‘Slavomolisano’ one of these days if no one has any objections. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 03:04, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
Done.Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:05, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Entries for Japanese prefecture names that end in (ken, prefecture)Edit

I would like to request the move of the content of entries like 茨城県 (Ibaraki-ken, literally Ibaraki prefecture) to simply 茨城 (Ibaraki, Ibaraki), cf. Daijisen. is not an essential part of the name.

(Notifying Eirikr, Wyang, TAKASUGI Shinji, Nibiko, Atitarev, Dine2016, Poketalker, Cnilep, Britannic124, Fumiko Take, Dine2016): Suzukaze-c 03:19, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

As a counterargument, Shogakukan's 国語大辞典 entry for 茨城 (Ibaraki) has one sense listed as 「いばらきけん(茨城県)」の略 ("Ibaraki-ken" no ryaku, "short for Ibaraki-ken"), and the 茨城 page on the JA Wikipedia is a disambig pointing to 茨城県 as one possible more-specific entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 03:52, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It seems like a two-word phrase to me. I am not a native speaker, but I think that if someone asked "水戸市は何県?" ((in) What prefecture is Mito?) then "茨城です。" (It's Ibaraki) would be a correct answer. Entries such as 奈良 and 広島 should have both the city and the prefecture. (I see that 奈良 currently does.) Cnilep (talk) 04:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
茨城県です would also be correct and probably more common. At least 東京 and 東京都 are clearly distinguished. No one in Izu Ōshima would say he/she is from 東京. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:04, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, 茨城県 is also correct. And if someone asked どこの出身? (Where are you from?) the answer would probably be 奈良県 rather than 奈良, or else expect a follow-up question. But I don't think that is necessarily a matter of word boundaries. Compare Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh, Kansas; the fact that it is usually necessary, and always acceptable to specify the latter doesn't mean that Pittsburgh on its own is not a proper noun. By same token, I think that 茨城 (et alia) is a word. That's the point I had in mind. I will say nothing about what is more common. I don't even have good intuitions about frequency in my native language. Cnilep (talk) 04:54, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I fully agree that 茨城 is a term worthy of inclusion. I also think that 茨城県 is a term worthy of inclusion. We have entries for both New York and New York City, and even New York State. Similarly, I think we should have entries for [PREFECTURE NAME], and also for [PREFECTURE NAME] and [PREFECTURE NAME] and [PREFECTURE NAME], etc., as appropriate. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:03, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I believe New York is a special case because there is both the state and the city. We have Washington State, but we don't have City of Chicago or State of Oregon. —Suzukaze-c 18:40, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
A lot (maybe all?) of the prefecture names minus the (-ken) suffix are polysemous. Listing a few from the north to the south, limiting just to geographical senses, and just in the same regions at that:
  • 青森 (Aomori): a prefecture and a city
  • 岩手 (Iwate): a prefecture, a city, and a township
  • 秋田 (Akita): a prefecture and a city
  • 山形 (Yamagata): a prefecture, a city, and a village
  • 宮城 (Miyagi): a prefecture, a county, a township, a rural area (ancient Japan), a village, an island, and a mountain
  • 福島 (Fukushima): a prefecture, a city, and a township
  • 新潟 (Nīgata): a prefecture, a city, a park, and a village
  • 栃木 (Tochigi): a prefecture and a city
  • 茨城 (Ibaraki): a prefecture, a county, and a township
Jumping south a bit to touch on Anatoli's example further below:
  • 奈良 (Nara): a prefecture, a city, a township, and a village
I am consequently in support of including both the bare name, and the qualified name(s), much as we already do for similar situations with English terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
They are polysemic because most prefectures were named after their capital city during the abolition of the han system. Exceptions include 埼玉 and 沖縄, where cities are named after their prefecture. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:23, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Generally support. Less duplication is good, and it is not much different from Chinese etc. for which we generally delemmatise, if not completely hard-redirect, these forms. Wyang (talk) 04:49, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Support. For a dictionary, I think we don't need to keep entries with both prefecture name and prefecture, despite the usage but it's always helpful to provide usage notes (e.g. normally used with 県: ~県) and usage examples, e.g. 奈良県(ならけん) (Nara ken, Nara (prefecture)). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)


Same suffix as in быль (bylʹ), убыль (ubylʹ), прибыль (pribylʹ), отрасль (otraslʹ), поросль (poroslʹ). а belongs to the stem. Guldrelokk (talk) 23:27, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Benwing2, Chignon: Please voice an opinion; if you agree, the couple of entries using this suffix need to be modified. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. The two entries need a change. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:57, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
ruwikt: Категория:Русские слова с суффиксом -ль (Category:Russian words suffixed with -ль). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:08, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
@Guldrelokk, Benwing2, Chignon: I have modified entries, the category is orphaned, -ль (-lʹ) still needs to be defined. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)


對弈? , graceful; , chess. —Suzukaze-c 06:51, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: is an alt form of , so we can keep 對奕 as an alt form of 對弈. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:32, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

zero width characterEdit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/ne­st should be moved to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/nest (which doesn't exist).

The two links look identical on Wiktionary, but if you copy and paste the first link onto windows notepad, it is revealed that it contains a zero-width character. —This unsigned comment was added by RubixLang (talkcontribs).

I doubt this move would be controversial, so I'll just do it. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 17:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. These creep in entry titles sometimes; I'm not sure why. I made an entry on WT:TODO a while ago advising periodic checks for them, which I try to carry out. I'll search a database dump for any more now. - -sche (discuss) 17:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
I found and moved one more entry with a soft hyphen in the title, and am fixing a few hundred with soft hyphens in their content, mostly in German and Georgian translations for some reason. - -sche (discuss) 17:54, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Re. German: duden.de has soft-hyphens at syllable boundaries Mofvanes (talk) 12:58, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

June 2018Edit

roleplaying gamerole-playing gameEdit

The hyphenated spelling is the most common spelling and the grammatically correct one. Wikipedia uses the non-hyphenated spelling (W:Role-playing game, W:Role-playing video game). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Interqwark roleplaying game once had a hyphen but was moved in 2010 by a non-administrator, seemingly without a discussion. Interqwark talk contribs 13:30, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

What is not grammatically correct about roleplaying? Equinox 14:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: “Role-playing” is usually spelt with a hyphen (sometimes with a space instead). “Roleplaying” is the non-standard spelling.
“Role-playing game” and “Role-playing video game” are the most common spellings and the ones used on Wikipedia. Interqwark talk contribs 14:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
In the 21st century, it's spelled without a hyphen. I checked various works:
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (1st edition) (1978) role-playing game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (2nd edition) (1989) role-playing game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (3rd edition) (2000) roleplaying game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (4th edition) (2008) roleplaying game
Dungeons & Dragons PHB (5th edition) (2015) roleplaying game
Pathfinder Core Rulebook (2009) roleplaying game
Starfinder Core Rulebook (2017) roleplaying game
Mage: the Ascension (2nd edition) (1995) roleplaying game
Changeling: the Dreaming (2nd edition) (1997) roleplaying game
Mage: the Ascension (revised edition) (2000) uses neither roleplaying game nor role-playing game, but uses both roleplaying and role-playing
Mage: the Ascension (20th anniversary edition) (2015) roleplaying game
Changeling: the Dreaming (20th anniversary edition) (2017) roleplaying game
Fate Core Book (2013) roleplaying game
Trail of Cthulhu (2008) roleplaying game
Paranoia (new edition) (2016) role-playing game
GURPS (3rd edition) (1989) roleplaying game
Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game (powered by GURPS) (2015) roleplaying game
Steve Jackson Games style guide (owner of GURPS) mandates roleplaying, not role-playing
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire (2013) roleplaying game
Star Trek Adventures Roleplaying Game (2017) roleplaying game
It's a somewhat arbitrary selection, but I mostly kept to major 21st century games. As you can see from http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?1984-Top-5-RPGs-Compiled-Charts-2008-Present , I got all five of the best selling games for the most recent quarter, and a good sample of the best selling games going back for years. (M:tA and C:tD are samples of the World of Darkness books.) Dungeons & Dragons is dominant in the industry, so that alone would be an argument for roleplaying game. Paranoia is produced by Mongoose, a British company, which may be why they use the hyphen; Modiphius Entertainment, the British producers of the Star Trek Adventures RPG, don't use a hyphen. In any case, it is overwhelmed by the mainstream usage of "roleplaying game".--Prosfilaes (talk) 18:42, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
@Prosfilaes: I suppose you’re right and that it is not non-standard if the unhyphenated spelling is so common. I rarely see it myself, but it does seem more common than I thought. In that case, my apologies. However, since Wikipedia uses the hyphenated spelling, shouldn’t Wiktionary do too? Interqwark talk contribs 19:12, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
We're a group of individuals whose common decisions are usually not, and should not ever, be dependent on the decisions of another group of individuals. What should count here are other people's arguments, not their results. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 19:34, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
In the titles of RP content roleplaying seems common, but in edited content it seems almost non-existent with role-playing being the overwhelming choice. Other dictionaries seem to strongly favor role-playing, as do the NY Times, Washington Post, The Times, etc. While it is hard to determine, I am curious how often roleplaying is used outside of the titles of particular products, and if it is predominantly used there how we ought to handle that. Is it akin to a word like lite, which is extremely common in product names but much more rare as an independent adjective? - TheDaveRoss 21:03, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Ngrams would suggest that, as you say, role-playing game is more common. - -sche (discuss) 22:00, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Is Google making a distinction between "role playing game" and "role-playing game" in that search?--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
@Prosfilaes: No, I’m fairly certain Google doesn’t care about punctuation marks. Interqwark talk contribs 00:59, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Actually, it does seem to distinguish them, as you can see if you compare all three spellings in the Viewer. The spaced spelling "role playing game" is the rarest of the bunch. - -sche (discuss) 05:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
Most of those selections were not from titles, but were instead from body text. I object to "edited content"; all of those books are from professional multi-person publishers with editors on staff. It is not like "lite"; it's the normal spelling of the word in the tabletop RPG industry.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:39, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
I was not contrasting "edited content" with the information you provided, but rather with things like Usenet usage etc. I don't disagree that all three variants are common within the community and associated materials (be they edited, user-created or otherwise). I think we ought to have all three variants represented and if there is a useful distinction to be made about where each of them is most commonly used or rarely used we should make note of that information. It does seem like the single-word variant is much more common within the industry than it is in other places, as is clear from the news reporting on the subject strongly preferring the hyphenated variant. - TheDaveRoss 02:35, 10 June 2018 (UTC)


Merge/move into 트랙터; is 트랙타 right? It doesn't seem right. —Suzukaze-c 03:03, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: I’d say it’s right but dated. Similar ending variations include 센터 (senteo) / 센타 (senta) and 데이터 (deiteo) / 데이타 (deita). See '센타'와 '센터'. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:38, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Renaming the Manda languagesEdit

We currently call [mgs] "Nyasa", and it came to my attention due to the entry mtua, which User:Wikitiki89 mistakenly created as a "Nyasa" entry, based on an obsolete dictionary of Chichewa that calls it "Kiniassa". Nowadays, Nyasa is usually a name for a group of closely related languages including Chichewa (Nyasa languages) but WP claims it is also used for mjh. Following WP, we could call it "Manda (Tanzania)", rendered problematic by the two other Manda language possibilities, which we call "Manda" and "Australian Manda" (!). I propose that we go all in for national disambiguation and make those parenthetical as well, as "Manda (India)" and "Manda (Australia)". @-scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:18, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Just for the record, I did a lot of research to determine what the correct language code was for the language described in that dictionary, even referring to this map (source) and strongly considering "mjh". Thanks for finally sorting it out! Note also, there is a "Nyasa" translation at water, which does not align with Chichewa "madzi" (which the dictionary I used gave as "madsi"). --WikiTiki89 15:07, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: Next time, try Google instead of poring over maps. :) I was already aware of this dictionary (and its miserable orthography), but searching "Rebman Kiniassa" gets you the Wikipedia article for Johannes Rebmann, which in turn tells you this is Chichewa. As for the "Nyasa" translation, masi... I really don't know what language that should be. The word for "water" in mgs is máchi. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:16, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
I did Google quite a bit, and I probably did look at the w:Chichewa Wikipedia article, but didn't trust that it was accurately citing the dictionary. --WikiTiki89 17:21, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
WP says Australian Manda (zma) is also called "Menhthe", but the only published resources on it I could find used Manda. To distinguish it and [mgs] and [mha], the proposal of [mgs]="Manda (Tanzania)" and [mha]="Manda (India)" and [zma]="Manda (Australia)" sounds good. (As an aside, there is also a "Ma Manda" language.) - -sche (discuss) 03:11, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Renaming mjh > Merging mjhEdit

Tangentially relevant to the discussion of languages named "Nyasa" above, mjh is not only one of those, but is also called "Mwera" (a name currently occupied by mwe, which can't even by distinguished by a parenthetical, because both languages are from Tanzania!). Maho's Guthrie List, the standard list used by Bantuists, calls it "Mbamba Bay Mwera", but the only hits for that string on Google Books are of that very list. WP chooses to simplify this as just "Mbamba Bay", which is both the most unambiguous option, and also an option that seems to be used only there. I'm really unsure what to call it — anything but our current name of "Nyanza", which refers to the lake and offers only more confusion. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:27, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@-sche, Mahagaja: Any thoughts on this (or the above discussion)? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:19, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge Can they be [called by whatever name is most common, even though homographic to another language, and then] distinguished by linguistic family, like WT:RFM#Canonical_name_of_"fan"? Say, "Mwera (Nyasa)" vs "Mwera (Ruvuma)" or whatever? Btw, we should standardize on putting the family in parentheses (where we also put geographic disambiguators), which will require renaming some languages that were named with the family first, like Papuan Mor (but not Sepik Iwam, which is apparently normally called that, to distinguish it from the other Iwam that is also Sepik). - -sche (discuss) 07:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't know anything about these languages, but if indeed both mjh and mwe are usually called Mwera and both are spoken in Tanzania, then I'd support "Mwera (Nyasa)" and "Mwera (Ruvuma)". —Mahāgaja · talk 07:29, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
  • @-sche, Mahagaja: I bring good tidings! Van de Velde et al. (ch.2, by Hammarström) report that "the examination by Ebner (1955: 41–43) shows the language to be a variant of Chewa/Nyanja on the opposite side of the lake". We no longer have to worry about the name, because we can merge [mjh] into [ny]. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:55, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Merged. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

July 2018Edit

Category:Bengali script and relatedEdit

After some discussion on Category talk:Baybayin script (that went a bit off-topic), some of the Indian language editors (@Bhagadatta, Msasag and myself) have agreed that this category should be renamed to Category:Eastern Nagari script, the reasons being (1) several languages other than Bengali use this script, and (2) the Bengali alphabet is just a subset of this script and lacks some of the glyphs used by other Bengali-script languages (most prominently Assamese which has a separate r-glyph). I want to make sure that there are no objections to this by editors who were not in the discussion. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 02:06, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

google:assamese+site:unicode.orgSuzukaze-c 02:16, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

@Asm sultan, Dubomanab Kutchkutch (talk) 05:35, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

  Support -- Bhagadatta (talk) 08:38, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


The two verb senses are bad IMHO. The first should be at busy oneself, I think, since it is always reflexive AFAIK. The second one doesn't sound right at all -- "He busied her" isn't something I've heard. Is that real at all? 02:36, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

August 2018Edit

Category:pl:Female peopleEdit

Category:pl:Male peopleEdit

I believe the usual terminology would be "women" and "men", right? I notice English has neither *CAT:en:Male people nor *CAT:en:Men, but only CAT:en:Male, and mutatis mutandis for women, but I don't actually see a problem with having list categories for this, I just wonder about the name. (Pinging @Hergilei the creator.) - -sche (discuss) 01:07, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I chose "male people" and "female people" because "men" or "women" would restrict the categories to adults. Hergilei (talk) 01:20, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


Move to lowercase oekaki? I don't think it's a proper noun. —Suzukaze-c 00:53, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

blow someone out of the waterEdit

merge into blow out of the water, retaining a redirect. For one thing it could be a 'something'. DCDuring (talk) 22:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Agree/support. - -sche (discuss) 20:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Category:Nahuatl languageEdit

Nahuatl is sometimes treated as a language, and sometimes as a family of languages. Right now, Wiktionary is treating it as both simultaneously, which doesn't make sense. "Nahuatl" should be removed as a language. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:55, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree the current arrangement doesn't make sense; it is a relic of very early days on Wiktionary, and has persisted mostly because it's not entirely clear how intelligible the varieties are and hence whether it's better to lump them all into nah, or retire nah and separate everything. But enough varieties are not intelligible that I agree with retiring nah (or perhaps finally converting it to a family code). - -sche (discuss) 20:34, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
I think a family code for Nahuan languages is really needed since there are many cases where we don't know specifically which variety a word was borrowed from. --Lvovmauro (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lvovmauro: OK, thanks to you and a few other editors, all words with ==Nahuatl== sections have been given more specific headers. However, as many as a thousand translations remain to be dealt with before the code can be made a family code and Category:Nahuatl language moved on over to Category:Nahuan languages. - -sche (discuss) 06:48, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
A disturbingly large number of these translations are neologisms with no actual usage. Some of them don't even obey the rules of Nahuatl word formation. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lvovmauro: Feel free to remove obvious errors / unattested neologisms. If a high proportion of the translations are bad, it might even be reasonable to start presuming they're bad and just removing them, since they already suffer from the problem of using an overbroad code. - -sche (discuss) 00:28, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
Someone with more time on their hands than me at the moment will need to delete all the subcategories of Category:Nahuatl language, and then the category itself, in preparation for moving 'nah' from the language-code module to the family-code module so the categories won't be recreated by careless misuse of 'nah' in the labels etc of 'nci' entries. - -sche (discuss) 00:24, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Mecayapan Nahuatl saltillosEdit

A number of Mecayapan Nahuatl words are currently written with U+0027 APOSTROPHE, which is a punctuation mark and not a letter. And a couple are using U+02BC MODIFIER LETTER APOSTROPHE, which is the wrong shape for this language. They should all be written with U+A78C LATIN SMALL LETTER SALTILLO instead.

--Lvovmauro (talk) 09:48, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Or perhaps they should just be moved to use the Modifier Letter Apostrophe, cf WT:RFM#Entries_in_CAT:Taos_lemmas_with_curly_apostrophes, to avoid over-proliferation of different apostrophe-ish letters. I think we should try to be consistent within the Nahuatl languages, at least, in which codepoint we use. - -sche (discuss) 20:26, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
Most Nahuan languages don't use any sort of apostrophe. Mecayapan is unusual. --Lvovmauro (talk) 01:54, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

September 2018Edit

Arawak and Island CaribEdit

Any objections to me renaming Arawak arw (4 entries) and Island Carib crb (0 entries) to Lokono and Kalhiphona, respectively? Arawak is easily confused with the Arawak/Arawakan proto language and family, and Carib is one of two often confounded languages, the Carib language and the Island Carib language. --Victar (talk) 04:03, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

No objection to renaming Arawak, but I'm not sure about Kalhiphona, which seems to be quite rare even on a Google web search, and which seems to invite as much possible confusion (in its various spellings) with the various spellings of Garifuna as it avoids with other "Carib"s. - -sche (discuss) 06:56, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

willfulness wilfulnessEdit

willfulness wilfulness willful wilful : any need to merge ? 02:30, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Moved from Tea Room Leasnam (talk) 03:01, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
No need to revise willful. In any case spellings differ in British and American English, so no merger. DonnanZ (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
The younger entry should be a {{standard spelling of}} the older entry, and I see someone has taken care of this. - -sche (discuss) 06:58, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

give one enough ropeEdit

give someone enough rope. And do we even need enough? Per utramque cavernam 10:16, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The old Chambers 1908 dictionary I've been going through has (under rope) the sub-entry give a person rope, "to allow a person full scope". In my personal experience (which may be inadequate, wrong, etc.) the metaphor is that if you give a person enough rope, they will hang themselves, i.e. the person is irresponsible or unwise. Equinox 22:48, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

Template:superlative predicative of to Template:da-superlative predicative ofEdit

Template:superlative attributive of to Template:da-superlative attributive ofEdit

Only used for Danish. —Rua (mew) 17:15, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't envisage using them in Norwegian. DonnanZ (talk) 13:53, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Category:Japanese kanji by goon readingCategory:Japanese kanji by go-on readingEdit

It’s not about goon but go-on. Most books on Japanese seem to use kan-on and go-on with a hyphen rather than the correctly Romanized kan’on and goon. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:42, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Category:Missing Ido noun formsEdit

If its name were correct, this category (added by Module:io-headword) would always be empty: once you have an entry to add this to, it isn't missing. Perhaps this should be something like "Ido nouns with missing forms". @Algentem. Chuck Entz (talk) 11:42, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

The forms themselves aren't even missing, they are presumably given in an inflection table. Only the entries for those forms are missing. —Rua (mew) 14:07, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

October 2018Edit

Category:Korean determinersCategory:Korean adnominalsEdit

I propose to rename Category:Korean determiners to Category:Korean adnominals, just like Category:Japanese adnominals. Korean gwanhyeongsa are grammatically almost identical to Japanese rentaishi or adnominals, which may or may not be determiners. Gwanhyeongsa are generally divided into three classes: demonstrative gwanhyeongsa, numeral gwanhyeongsa, and qualifying gwanhyeongsa ([5]). The last ones are not determiners. (pinging @Atitarev, Eirikr, Garam, HappyMidnight, KoreanQuoter) — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:31, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Support. --Garam (talk) 08:21, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
Tentatively Support. Let's check with User:Wyang who was also involved and had an opinion in a related discussion on the group of words ending in (, jeok). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I feel determiner is the more common name for this in English; the different definitions of these terms across languages should not be a concern - e.g. we also use adjective differently for Korean. adnominal may be confused with the -eun, -neun, -eul, -deon forms of Korean verbs and adjectives. Wyang (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
@Wyang: The problem is that Category:Korean determiners contains words other than determiners. It will be all right to have both Category:Korean adnominals and Category:Korean determiners without renaming if you want, just like Category:Japanese adnominals and Category:Japanese determiners. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:31, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Rename yrlEdit

We currently call this "Nhengatu", but Nheengatu is where we've put our actual lemma for the language name, and it does seem to be more common in English per BGC. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:09, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Support. - -sche (discuss) 17:59, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

wipe the floor but mop the floor with someoneEdit

Which is better? Per utramque cavernam 11:46, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd say the latter: I have never heard wipe the floor without with (though the entry suggests it's possible; is it?). Equinox 11:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I'd prefer mop, but Google NGram favors wipe to mop 5:2. DCDuring (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
The question here is whether to include "...with someone" in the entry title. Equinox 14:18, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I ignored the page it was on. I thought it was a TR question.
I think Lambian suggested that someone is sometimes useful to distinguish an idiom from literal use (eg, of wipe/mop the floor with a sponge-mop) without some of the ambiguities of an entry without someone, even with {{&lit}}. DCDuring (talk) 14:33, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

ichthyosaur vs. ichthyosaurus, and other terms like these.Edit

I'm in a dispute with an editor over the exact meaning and differences between these two terms - are they the same or must we tell apart the order from the genus? Is there is a standard to follow? Дрейгорич (talk) 15:55, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

The standard is making a survey of contemporary and past usages and using that to inform the definitions. DTLHS (talk) 16:15, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and cleaned up the definitions, and linked to the scientific genus in the entry in case anyone wants that. Дрейгорич (talk) 16:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Category:Polish words suffixed with -yskoEdit

Merge into Category:Polish words suffixed with -isko. These two are allomorphs of the same suffix, the one that gets used depends on the final consonant of the stem. The entry -ysko should also be defined as such, rather than having a full entry. —Rua (mew) 20:18, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Our entries for such (allomorphic and related) suffixes are a bit of a mess, it's true. (Compare the categories for the English suffixes -ian, -an, and -n.) IMO we should update the affix etymology-section templates so that they have access to lists of suffixes (etc) that are allomorphic in each language and which we want to merge, so people can input the suffix that's present (-ysko, etc) but have the entry categorize into (and potentially link to) the "lemma" suffix. Otherwise, categories like this will keep getting repopulated forever. - -sche (discuss) 17:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

November 2018Edit

Language request: Old CahitaEdit

Mayo and Yaqui are mutually intelligible and sometimes considered to be a single language called Cahita. But their speakers apparently consider them to be distinct languages, and they have distinct ISO codes (mfy and yaq) and are currently treated distinctly by Wiktionary.

I'm not requesting that they be merged, but separating them is a problem because an important early source, the Arte de la lengua cahita conforme à las reglas de muchos peritos en ella (published 1737 but written earlier) treats them as a single language, and also includes an extinct dialect called Tehueco. I'd like to add words from the Arte but I can't list them specifically as either Mayo or Yaqui.

One solution would be treat to the language of the Arte as a distinct historical language, "Old Cahita", which would then be the ancestor of Mayo and Yaqui. The downside is there only seems to be one linguist currently using this name. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:32, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

On linguistic grounds, it seems like we should merge Yaqui and Mayo. Jacqueline Lindenfeld's 1974 Yaqui Syntax says "Yaqui and Mayo are sufficiently similar to be mutually intelligible", the Handbook of Middle American Indians says "the modern known representatives of Cahitan—Yaqui and Mayo—are mutually intelligible", and various more general references say "Yaqui and Mayo are mutually intelligible dialects of the Cahitan language", "The Yaqui and Mayo speak mutually intelligible dialects of Cahita". (There are political considerations behind the split, which a merger might upset, so adding Old Cahita would also work, but we have tended to be lumpers...) - -sche (discuss) 23:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
I wouldn't object to merging them. --Lvovmauro (talk) 08:58, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Cleanup suggestions for some badly attested Semitic languages, needing admin actionEdit

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2018/November#Cleanup suggestions for some badly attested Semitic languages, needing admin action.
  1. Pray somebody add scripts = {"Narb"} to Module:languages/data3/x after line 1026 for xna. (Otherwise mentions of words in it are shown in slanted letters.)
    Added. DTLHS (talk) 03:17, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
    It seems that even MediaWiki:Common.css needs a new class for Narb added, to get font-style: normal; Sarb is there and has it, Narb is not there. If the mention of a North Arabian word in عَنْكَبُوت(ʿankabūt) works then it is complete. Also I see that in Module:scripts/data Narb does not have direction = "rtl" while Sarb has. Fay Freak (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
    Good catch. I've updated Common.css and Mobile.cc and set it to display rtl. Sadly, it seems there are no fonts that display it. If you or I could find a good image of what the letters are supposed to look like, I might have time to make a basic font iff the letters don't have to be joined the way they do in Arabic. - -sche (discuss) 22:08, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
    I as an Archfag recently had a great update three weeks ago that adds displaying support for Old North Arabian, amongst other things like which improved Arabic and Syriac script rendering everywhere. gucharmap calls the name of the font by “Noto Sans Old North Arabian”, which I find in the filelist of the noto-fonts package. @-sche Fay Freak (talk) 22:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
  2. I think everything under Category:Old North Arabian script languages should be “Ancient North Arabian” (xna), it is to wonder that Dadanitic (sem-dad), Hismaic (sem-his), Safaitic (sem-saf), Taymanitic (sem-tay), Dumaitic (sem-dum), Hasaitic (sem-has), Thamudic (sem-tha) are separate languages on Wiktionary (some also with no script assigned). (Prolly someone went through some lects and added all he found.) Those lects are at a level of attestion or study where it does not even matter whether they are dialects or languages, and “Thamudic” is even a collective term for any of the Ancient North Arabian lects not further classified. Many inscriptions cannot be classified unto more specific lects anyway (you know, people also were nomads and wrote graffiti here and there) and they can only be entered as “Ancient North Arabian”. With words being found randomly and in concise consonantal writing I don’t see why one would pursue separation other than by stating the find spot.
  3. Also, “Qatabanian” (xqt), “Sabaean” (xsa), “Minaean” (inm), “Harami” (xha, redirects to “Minaean” on Wikipedia), Hadrami (xhd) – likewise otiose distinctions, regarding form and amount of attestion of Epigraphic South Arabian, as the name says only epigraphically attested, without any vowels –, have been unpopular in use already, entries and etymologies use the header “Old South Arabian” (sem-srb). I suggests to cross out those. Etymology-only is possible so one can use those in {{cog}} when in an individual case a word is known to be attested as of one of the dialects. North Arabian epigraphy categorization is more complex and it is better anyway to mention in each etymology where a lexeme has been encountered.
    1. Himyaritic (sem-him), as an attested language, is rather mythical because the Ḥimyarites wrote Sabaean. Wikipedia mentions “three Himyaritic texts”, at the same time in the Encyclopedia of Arabic Language and Lingustics s.v. we read about two: “It is not even possible to establish whether they were written in the same language. The first text dates from around 100 C.E. and the second from around 300 C.E.” And about the secondary material from Early Medieval Arabs: “It is easy to see that quotations from Himyaritic offer very different readings according to the manuscripts.” Or according to others, mentioned in the EALL, Ḥimyarite is the same as Arabic, only with peculiar features (which might as well derive from Arabicized transmission, or later language fusion or whatever, much that could fool us). It could be grouped with those spurious languages if this category held languages from Antiquity.
  4. Gurage is according to Wolf Leslau, it’s most eminent scholar, one language with twelve dialects; others share this view. The material for this language, particularly by Leslau across his works, only lists words as “Gurage”, without qualifying if they are “Inor”, “Mesqan” or some other Gurage, so on Wiktionary one cannot simply give “Gurage” words (which has recently been done in Semitic comparisons by abusing the code of the largest dialect Sebat Bet Gurage, in spite of the source saying “Gurage”). The following dialects I find on en.Wiktionary as languages: Kistane/Soddo (gru), Mesqan (mvz), Sebat Bet Gurage (sgw), Silt'e (stv), Inor (ior), Muher (sem-mhr), Mesmes (mys), Chaha (sem-cha), Wolane (wle), Zay (zwa); some of these are considered subdialects of Sebat Bet Gurage. There are more I don’t find on Wiktionary. It’s perhaps like with the Aramaic dialects yore or the Low German dialects today. People publish Westphalian dictionaries but it’s still Low German and so treated by Wiktionary. I suspect that instead of holding controversial subdivisions deriving from Ethnologue we should, holding to the sources, keep the Wiktionary-language level higher. The source for a certain word can be further qualified by labels as with Coptic. I mean that with language, unlike with biological taxonomy, one cannot simply assume that distinctiveness of a taxon is ascertained by experiments and then authoritatively published in some reference. As the individual forms are described in this dictionary, one must weigh if the data allows distinction at all. Currently it looks to me that hence Gurage must be lumped; I don’t know if, with new data or emerging different literary standards, separating the lects with separate codes will later be convenient (the increase in language material will be disappointing and unlikely someone will come and add Gurage in thousands of entries anyway, let’s be realistic), but I doubt that it would be comfortable. See also Why is Old Novgorodian a separate language in Wiktionary? This is the question: Is the difference in data enough to justify separation? The actual language-dialect distinction does not matter, it must be seen functionally, for dictionary purposes, for dictionary purposes. And if linguists publish material as “Gurage” the distinction is probably not good for Wiktionary headers. Isn’t it out of scope of Wiktionary to distinguish lect clusters when they are generally unwritten and chiefly written by and variously lumped and splitted by linguists? That’s a difficult question. Also I fear that such distinctions might be precisely the cause why nobody comes and pours out his rich Gurage knowledge. An adept would not be sure to distinguish, pendulating between two extremes, not witting if he should split as much as he can by all kinds of criteria or if to standardize and to abstract. To help though first all mentioned codes need the Ge'ez and Latin script both assigned, and the macrolanguage created. Maybe there will be late order from early ambiguity. Though I would perhaps do the order by lumping and labelling by location, were I that certain aficionado.
The obese Wiktionary:List of languages currently comprising 8055 lects needs cuts however. Fay Freak (talk)
This discussion really belongs at rfm, because that's where we normally discuss changes to whether or how we recognize a language. The Grease pit is for discussing how to implement something along those lines- not whether it should be implemented. The other option would be at the Beer parlour, but this seems like something that would benefit from the more specialized focus of rfm. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Good distinction. I hesitated at 4:13 AM where to put it because of the mixed content. Moved. Fay Freak (talk) 14:16, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Some prior discussion of Thamudic et al is on Category talk:Hismaic language; IIRC they were separated because literature does mention them as distinct entities, but if they were very similar or often treated as one language, and especially if there's difficulty in assigning specific texts to specific ones due to similarity, that would be an argument for reversing that decision and going back to the conservative approach of treating them all as one language with 'dialect'/'region' labels where appropriate.
(As to the venue, yes, these discussions tend to happen on RFM for quirky historical reasons — originally the discussions entailed actually merging or splitting language templates — although some have proposed the Beer Parlour as a more logical venue. There are minor benefits and drawbacks to either venue; this venue does have the advantage that discussions stay on the page until resolved.) - -sche (discuss) 17:20, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I avoided Beer Parlour because I thought it is only for matters already affecting people, but it would not affect anyone we know now. Fay Freak (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Who is likely to have access to resources on Africa's Semitic languages that could help judge what to do with Gurage? User:Metaknowledge, User:Wikitiki89? Wikipedia insists "The Gurage languages do not constitute a coherent linguistic grouping", which seems incompatible with merging them. William A. Shack, in his book on The Gurage, writes that "each Gurage dialect is usually understood only by its own speakers, and there is a rough correlation between the contiguity of dialect groups and the extent to which their dialects are mutually intelligible." (Steven Danver, in his (general-focus) encyclopedia, says "the languages of the different groups of Ethiopian Gurage are seldom mutually intelligible.") Marvin Lionel Bender, in his 1976 Language in Ethiopia, says "Although seventeen varieties of Gurage dialects are listed, mutual intelligibility reduces this to four languages and three dialect clusters as follows (Hetzron classification):
  Gogot, Misqan, Muxir, Soddo
  East Gurage (Inneqor, Silti, Urbareg, Weleni, Zway)
  Central West Gurage (Chaha, Gumer, Gura Izha)
  Peripheral West Gurage (Ener, Geto, Indegegn, Innemor)"
However, his very next sentence is: "Gogot, Muxir, Soddo comprise a geographical (non-genetic) grouping of non-mutually-intelligible languages known as 'North Gurage'", all of which seeems to suggest that merging all of the Gurages would not be sound.
- -sche (discuss) 17:28, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
The cited grouping of course adds to the confusion. Three languages, but four dialects clusters, not mentioning their intersections? Well, we will not find out how one should see them without deep-diving. But the question is which direction Wiktionary should go: likely the current division is not correct. Should Wiktionary just add all possible splits so they can be cleaned up later when someone would commit himself to add the whole Gurage and judge about which distinctions are most convenient or should we have one macro-code because distinction is hopeless? The reason why I have even mentioned Gurage is that for example Leslau’s Etymological Dictionary of Geʿez which I like to use just gives words as “Gurage”, which sounds like there is a common vocabulary. Fay Freak (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps you can deduce from Leslau's literature list which Gurage language he gets his data from? He seems to have written an etymological dictionary of Gurage as well, presumably its foreword could clear things up.
His own field studies. I hade linked his Etymological Dictionary of Gurage (“according to Wolf Leslau” etc.). Fay Freak (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
As a volunteer project (run on fancy), we really have no other choice than to wait for someone to investigate the matter deeply and order the languages in a manner that facilitates their lexicographical work.
Maybe we need non-genetic language group categories and ways to give forms in unindentified languages belonging to language groups. Crom daba (talk) 15:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Merging Classical Mongolian into MongolianEdit

"Classical Mongolian" refers to the literary language of Mongolia used from 17th to 19th century created through a language reform associated with increased Buddhist cultural production (this started in the 16th century, but language standardization took place later). In the 20th century, (outer) Mongolia became independent from China and later adopted a Cyrillic orthography based on the spoken language, while Inner Mongolia kept her Uyghur script.

The literary language of Inner Mongolia continues Classical Mongolian in terms of its orthography as well as most of its grammar (to an extent that Janhunen (?) calls the situation bilingual). Modern varieties, in both Outer and Inner Mongolia, have greatly expanded their lexicons through borrowing of modern terms, but they also both consider all of Classical Mongolian lexicon to be a part of their language, and will put it in their dictionaries, even transcribed into Cyrillic.

The actual problem I have with this division is that when it comes to borrowings from (Classical) Mongolian, we sometimes cannot ascertain whether they precede the 20th century or not, or more common still, we know they precede the 19th century (and post-date the 16th), but they obviously come from a spoken variety and not "Classical Mongolian" as a literary language. Crom daba (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I find it also strange that Wiktionary distinguishes Ottoman Turkish from Turkish, it’s like distinguishing pre-1918 Russian from “Russian”, or like one reads about “Ottoman Turks” instead of “Turks”. Also Kazakh and the other Turkic language do not get extra codes for Arabic spelling, this situation is even more comparable, innit. Kazakhs in China write in Arabic script, Mongols in China in Mongolian script, but the languages are two and not four. Or also it sounds as with Pali. Am I correct to assume that Classical Mongolian texts get reedited in Cyrillic script? Then you could base all on Cyrillic and make Mongolian script soft redirects, because even words died out before the introduction of Cyrillic can be found in Cyrillic. Fay Freak (talk) 15:23, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
@Fay Freak, the situation is similar to Turkish, but it creates less problems there since the Arabic script Turkish is obsolete and most relevant loans are pre-Republican.
In principle it could be possible to collapse all of Mongolian into Cyrillic, but this would be extremely politically incorrect.
Collapsing everything (potentially even Buryat, Daur and Middle Mongolian) into Uyghur script, like we do with Chinese, would perhaps make more sense, but 1) it's a pain to enter 2) Cyrillic is generally more accessible and useful to our users and (Outer) Mongolians 3) most of my materials are in Cyrillic 4) it corresponds poorly to the spoken forms 5) its Unicode encoding corresponds poorly to its actual form 6) the encoding doesn't correspond that well to the spoken form either. Crom daba (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
This is tricky, because as far as language headers and having entries for terms in the language, it seems like we could often resolve which language a word is in(?) by knowing the date of the texts it's attested in. It is, as you say, etymologies where it's hardest to ascertain dates. (Still, if we merged the lects, we could retain an "etymology only" code for borrowings that were clearly from Classical Mongolian, like is done for Classical Persian, etc.) I'm having a hard time finding any references on the mutual intelligibility of the two stages; most references are concerned with the intelligibility or non-intelligibility of modern Khalkha, Kalmyk, etc. If we kept the stages separate, etymologies could always say something like "from Mongolian foo, or a Classical Mongolian forerunner". - -sche (discuss) 22:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
@-sche, yes, the Persian model would be desirable.
It doesn't make much sense to speak of intelligibility between Classical and Modern Mongolian, Classical Mongolian is exclusively a written language, its spelling reflects the phonology of 13th-century Mongolian (early Middle Mongolian). The same spelling is used in Modern Mongolian as written in Uyghur script.
The biggest problem with Classical Mongolian is how redundant it is. For any word that is shared between modern and classical periods, and that is probably most of the lexicon, we would need to make two identical entries in Uyghur script for modern and classical Mongolian. Crom daba (talk) 11:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
That seems not unlike how we handle Serbo-Croatian and Hindi-Urdu. — [ זכריה קהת ] Zack. — 14:25, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
Indeed. The way we handle them sucks. Crom daba (talk) 12:52, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
I agree. All this duplication is a huge waste of resources. Per utramque cavernam 13:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
Not exactly; Serbo-Croatian and Hindi-Urdu have redundant entries in different scripts on different pages, while I understand Crom daba's point to be that we would need to have redundant ==Mongolian== and ==Classical Mongolian== entries on the same pages for most Mongolian/Uyghur script words, which would be more like having duplicate Bosnian and Croatian entries on the same pages, not our current system. And Serbo-Croats are testier about their language(s) being lumped than speakers of Classical Mongolian... ;) - -sche (discuss) 17:29, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
OK, does anyone object to the merge? If not, I can try to do it with AutoWikiBrowser later, or Crom or others could start reheadering our small number of Classical Mongolian entries, fixing any wayward translations, etc. For etymologies of terms that are known to derive from Classical Mongolian, we should be able to just move cmg over to Module:etymology languages/data. - -sche (discuss) 17:29, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

December 2018Edit

Renaming aguEdit

We currently call this "Aguacateca", but "Aguacateco" is much more common. (Wikipedia opts for "Awakatek", which is rapidly becoming more common but is probably not there yet — not that we can't be crystal-ballsy if we want to when it comes to names rather than entries.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:42, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

lend a helping handEdit

Redirect to lend a hand. Per utramque cavernam 08:59, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

  • No OneLook reference has this; several have lend a hand. A redirect, though not necessary, might be helpful to someone. DCDuring (talk) 15:34, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Tutankhamon -> TutankhamunEdit

The page for the late kingdom Pharaoh is currently called "Tutankhamon". Tutankhamun is overwhelmingly the more common spelling, as evidenced by the title of the corresponding Wikipedia article about the same Pharaoh. I also feel compelled to point out that a google search of "Tutankhamon" results in did you mean Tutankhamun?

And arguably, neither spelling is particularly authentic to either the hieroglyphs nor conventional transcriptions, since, as Wiktionary page "Tutankhamon" admits, the vowel was not present in the original hieroglyphic spelling. Nevertheless, -amun is treated as an alternate spelling in spite of being just as valid a rendering and much more widely used.

I considered the possibility that this was for the sake of consistency; perhaps the creator god that makes up part of Tut's name was referred to as Amon on Wiktionary. But alas, no, he's called Amun here too.

Insisting on -amon, to me, smacks of running against the grain for it's own sake. I really think it ought to be moved to Tutankhamun.—⁠This comment was unsigned.

Google N-Grams show that, since 1995 or so, Tutankhamun ("T.u") is a bit more popular than T.e, both which are much more popular than T.o, in turn more popular than T.a. But until 1980 or so, T.e was the most popular, sometimes by a factor of 10 or more. T.e is the spelling given by the most OneLook references, followed by T.u. Spellings with other vowels for the initial u and the as are non-starters.
From this I conclude that Tutankhamun and Tutankhamen are the only candidates for main entry, T.u looking like the winner going forward. DCDuring (talk) 18:32, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

January 2019Edit

"comparative adjectives" > "adjective comparative forms"Edit

Apparently there was a recent vote to remove the ambiguity of comparative and superlative categories. What I don't understand is why the name "comparative adjectives" was chosen, which suggests a lemma category, yet it's now being subcategorised under non-lemmas. Lemma subcategories are named "xxx POSs", as can be seen in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas. Non-lemma subcategories are named "POS xxx forms", visible in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/non-lemma forms. Therefore, the obvious place for comparative forms of adjectives is the "adjective comparative forms" category we used to have. The new name, although voted on, stands out as an exception among all of our existing categories and is inconsistent. It should therefore either be renamed back to reflect its non-lemma status, or it should be moved back under its original lemma parent category. —Rua (mew) 23:57, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

@Surjection, ErutuonRua (mew) 00:09, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

The vote was here: Wiktionary:Votes/2018-07/Restructure comparative and superlative categories. — Eru·tuon 00:13, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Participles are not lemmas yet they are called "(language) participles", so it's not as if the comparatives/superlatives would exactly be exceptions of some kind. They even have their own "participle forms" categories! The former also applies to gerunds. — surjection?〉 09:13, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
And to make it clear, "adjective/adverb comparative/superlative forms" categories are to be made obsolete as a direct result of the vote. — surjection?〉 09:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes, and that should be undone, because as I said, the name "comparative adjectives" suggests that they are lemmas because of our existing naming scheme. Participles are non-lemmas by virtue of being participles, but adjectives are lemmas, so "comparative adjectives" are also lemmas. Are you implicitly proposing to rename all non-lemma categories to this new scheme, e.g. "dual adjectives", "plural nouns", "possessive nouns", "feminine adjectives"? If the vote is upheld then I will propose this change to make things consistent again. —Rua (mew) 12:00, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I certainly would not assume "comparative adjectives" refer to lemmas in any way as much as "participles" don't. If we go back to "adjective comparative forms", what do you suggest for the name of the category with inflected forms of such? And don't just say "put them in 'Adjective forms'", because that at the very least isn't consistent as I stated below. In the old system, there was no consistency at all - inflected forms of comparatives and superlatives went to either the same category as them or Adjective forms without any sort of rule. — surjection?〉 12:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I would not even categorise inflected forms of comparatives in a special way. They are just adjective forms. I don't even think comparatives should be categorised separately at all, there is no obvious need to do so. The example of possessive forms is perhaps the best parallel, since they have inflection tables of their own in Northern Sami and many other languages. Do you propose renaming them to "possessive nouns" so that there can be a separate "possessive noun forms" category? —Rua (mew) 12:28, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
If you feel comparatives too don't need a special category, I'm personally fine with bunching all of them under "adjective forms", but that will too need wider consensus to implement. When it comes to those possessive nouns, I would argue comparatives and superlatives are closer to participles than to those possessive forms, which is why I believe they're not a good parallel and should be considered separately. — surjection?〉 12:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Why? —Rua (mew) 12:46, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Many participle forms develop into adjectives of their own right and some comparative/superlatives too have developed into their own forms. Possessive forms by comparison basically never have, showing that they are fundamentally different in some way. — surjection?〉 12:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
In fact, unlike this new system which has parallels, I'm fairly sure the old system of having "adjective comparative forms" but then the forms of comparatives under "adjective forms" is more of an exception. — surjection?〉 09:32, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Not really. We don't have separate non-lemma categories for everything in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas and in fact we don't need to. Under the old system, all comparative forms could be categorised under "adjective comparative forms", so that includes all case forms of comparatives. There was never any need to separately categorise forms of comparatives. In fact I'm generally opposed to subcategorising non-lemmas, so that's why I moved everything in Dutch to just "adjective forms". We don't need a subcategory for every possible type of non-lemma form. However, if we do have them, then they should be named consistently. —Rua (mew) 12:00, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
We don't have separate non-lemma categories for the reason that many of them are simply not inflectable on and upon themselves. Again, participles have separate categories for the main participle and inflected forms of such - why should this not apply to comparative and superlative adjectives? — surjection?〉 12:17, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
What I get out of your argument is that you think "POS xxx forms" should become "xxx POSs" when the form has its own inflections. But then what about cases like English, where comparatives don't have their own forms and are simply adjective forms? Or cases like Dutch or Swedish, where there are multiple superlative forms but their inflections are shown on the lemma? How is an editor supposed to know what the name of the category for any particular adjective form is, when some of them are named differently from others? —Rua (mew) 12:28, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
That is indeed my argument for comparatives and superlatives due to their so far horridly inconsistent handling. In the case of English and all other languages, they will only have "comparative adjectives", no "comparative adjective forms", much like English would have "participles" that too aren't lemmas but would not have "participle forms". In cases like Dutch, Swedish and such where comparative/superlative forms are more numerous, those need to be handled on a language by language basis, ideally to choose one of the forms as the most lemma-esque (such as which form dictionaries primarily use to describe the comparative/superlative of an adjective), and if not one can be decided, it is more of a tricky situation (possibly all into "comparative/superlative adjective forms"?). Editors in turn can rely on other existing entries and eventually remember these entries much like the existing ones are, or use language-specific headword templates. Yes, the new system is by no means perfect, but I would argue it is miles better than what we had before. — surjection?〉 12:38, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
But again, how is an editor of these languages supposed to know that, while adjective forms normally go in "adjective xxx forms", it is somehow different for comparative and superlative forms? You still haven't answered this. Your argument is based on sublemma-ness, but this differs per language, not all languages treat comparatives and superlatives as sublemmas. The categorisation should allow for both treatments depending on the needs of the individual language, not force a particular treatment on all languages. The fact that you think it makes sense for Finnish doesn't mean it makes sense for English. Now we have Category:English comparative adjectives for an adjective form, but Category:English noun plural forms for a noun form. How is that consistent? —Rua (mew) 12:45, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
I did already answer that question - read the latter part of my previous response. Many a time has an editor checked an existing entry to see how something is formatted, and I doubt there would be a single editor that has never done that. Many of the languages with comparatives and superlatives set up have language-specific headword templates, and many of those too have ACCEL which can too give the correct headword category autom- oh wait, it can't anymore since someone removed that capability. — surjection?〉 12:49, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
You have not answered the question. An editor cannot, based on the rule that non-lemma categories are named "adjective xxx forms", guess the correct name of the category for comparative forms, whereas they could before. Instead, there is now a single exception that comparatives are named "comparative adjectives". Where are all the other "xxx POSs" categories for non-lemmas? Again, are you proposing that all non-lemmas be renamed to match this new scheme? If not, what justifies this single exception? —Rua (mew) 12:54, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Which question exactly have I not answered? The question was "how would an editor of these languages know the correct name for the categories?", which I have now answered not less than twice in my two previous responses. Instead, what it seems you are arguing is that the new scheme creates inconsistency in terms of the category names for non-lemma forms. Indeed, if other derivations are shown to be just like participles or comparative/superlatives, I'm happy to agree to move them under a similar scheme as well, but the possessive forms you brought up above are not an example of such. — surjection?〉 12:58, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Since it seems that this is the new norm for naming categories, I have proposed to rename all existing categories to match the new naming scheme at WT:BP. —Rua (mew) 13:16, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

@Rua Given the edits you have made to the templates and modules are still in place, are you willing to revert those yourself or are you asserting that you are overriding the consensus established by the vote? — surjection?〉 21:10, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Reconcile Category:#### terms derived from the shape of letters and Category:#### terms making reference to character shapesEdit

See also Category talk:Terms making reference to character shapes by language.

Perhaps they could be merged, or perhaps both could be kept (Japanese: characters; letters?), but the naming should be consistent, at the least. —Suzukaze-c 11:08, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

good on yougood on someoneEdit

per good for someone. —Suzukaze-c 05:51, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Are you sure that other objects are even possible? This is somewhat of a set phrase. DTLHS (talk) 05:58, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
google news:"good on him" has a fair amount of results. —Suzukaze-c 06:31, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to see what the usage note says if it's to be at [[good on someone]]. If we can't write a good usage note, I'd favor the current entry staying where it is, with a full entry also at [[good on someone]]. DCDuring (talk) 13:00, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Right, we can say "good on him", "good on her", "good on them", "good on Mr Smith", and so on. In fact we can even say "good on someone" if the person is unknown (e.g. "Good on someone for fixing this"). Even so, to me "good on someone" seems a bit unexpected or unintuitive as the main entry. Having said that, I don't know what else to suggest. Mihia (talk) 23:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Hard redirects from the common forms and usage examples for the common forms should reduce any user confusion. DCDuring (talk) 00:33, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Unless the entry could be at "good on". I mean, we can say "good on the company", "good on parliament" etc. Although these nouns are still "people-related", they are getting further away from "someone". Mihia (talk) 01:19, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't have any problem saying good on that toaster if a toaster did something remarkable. I think it can just be good on.

February 2019Edit

make someone's blood run cold and one's blood runs coldEdit

These should be merged, I think. Per utramque cavernam 12:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, IMO, into someone's blood runs cold, with hard redirects from both. DCDuring (talk) 15:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Category:Specific epithetsEdit

This contains terms, but in what language? And what's a specific epithet? —Rua (mew) 13:34, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

See specific epithet and specific epithet at OneLook Dictionary Search. DCDuring (talk) 15:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Some are for Latin entries; others Translingual. We've never had consensus. MWOnline would probably put then is "International Scientific Vocabulary". DCDuring (talk) 15:40, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Ok, but what language are they for our purposes? Translingual? —Rua (mew) 18:48, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
As I said, some are condemned to be "Translingual" by our Latin contributors to preserve the purity of their domain. Some are Latin because they are identical to Latin words. Some may be from other languages altogether, in some cases "from a native Caribbean language", not identified and probably not identifiable. But they all function as specific epithets. DCDuring (talk) 00:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Category:Taxonomic eponymsEdit

As above. —Rua (mew) 13:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

As with Category:Specific epithets. DCDuring (talk) 15:41, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

an arm and a legEdit

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/English#an arm and a leg.

This should be deleted so that the mistaken arm and a leg (with the first article missing) could be moved to its place. Thanks. Adam78 (talk) 09:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

It's a redirect, last edited in 2017. I don't think any action is needed. DonnanZ (talk) 12:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I know it's a redirect. My point is that the actual article should be under the title an arm and a leg, instead of arm and a leg. The initial article an is an indispensable part of the idiom. Adam78 (talk) 13:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

We omit those articles. The entry is "house", not "a house"; "shoulder to cry on", not "a shoulder to cry on". Equinox 13:42, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
This is not the only case where we do this: lick and a promise, pinch and a punch for the first of the month. We're inconsistent, however: a blessing and a curse, a boon and a bane. Per utramque cavernam 13:48, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I've moved it to arm and leg. Adam78 (talk) 14:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

It is problematic. As you say, the idiomatic expression is "an arm and a leg". "arm and leg" is to me unidiomatic (in the relevant sense) to the point that it is hard to recognise. It may be that in cases like this we should retain those articles that are, as you said, an indispensable part of the idiom. I would support the main entry being at "an arm and a leg" and the others being redirects. Mihia (talk) 14:50, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
I think that edit should be reverted. DonnanZ (talk) 14:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Done. arm and leg is certainly not the right solution. Per utramque cavernam 15:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree arm and leg is not the best, but I think it's certainly better than the current asymmetrical solution. Maybe the principle of omitting initial articles comes from the time when paper encyclopedias were created and their entries had to be alphabetically sorted. However, even in that case the article had to be given after the headword, in a way like arm and a leg, an. But it's obviously not the concern of an electronic edition, especially when DEFAULTSORT is available. So please do move it to an arm and a leg. In addition, we could decide about a similar policy to eliminate the inconsistencies mentioned above. These are not the same cases as "a house", due to the parallel structure. Cases like "a shoulder to cry on" might be debated but these, I guess, are beyond doubt. Adam78 (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree with having the main entry for this term at an arm and a leg. The specific determiner (article) is required for this to be idiomatic (Native speakers: Try a few others to confirm.), though there are 'creative' uses that depart from the common idiom (eg, an arm or a leg). Probably the coordinate structure is the reason, but each such idiom would need to be reviewed. DCDuring (talk) 16:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
The situation is essentially different from the entry house, mentioned above. Next to “a house” you have “this house”, “a nice house”, and so on. But you don’t have “this arm and a leg” or “a nice arm and a leg”. Let arm and a leg simply redirect to an arm and a leg instead of the other way around.  --Lambiam 09:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
A better alternative could be to redirect all to cost an arm and a leg, which itself is a redirect at present, as given in Oxford. It would make more sense as a verbal phrase, I think. DonnanZ (talk) 11:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
If we do that, I would like to note that "pay an arm and a leg" and other variants with words such as "worth .. " are also well attested -- should they have entries too? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Also, spend and charge and consider the following with the NP as object of preposition:
  • 2006 May 7, William Neumann, “One Family, Two Jobs and Homes in Separate Cities”, in New York Times:
    Kimberly Howard and Edison Peinado bought a one-bedroom apartment on Golden Gate Avenue in the North Panhandle neighborhood of San Francisco last June for what she described as "$650,000, an arm and a leg and our first born."
I rest your case. DCDuring (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Per this and what Lambiam brought up, I agree with Lambiam that an arm and a leg should be the main entry. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:44, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
BTW, other OneLook dictionaries have are split on which way to go. See a * and a * at OneLook Dictionary Search.
Other idioms at OneLook: a day late and a dollar short, a hop skip and a jump, a lick and a promise, a nip and a tuck (but also nip and tuck (adverbial use)), a nod and a wink, a wing and a prayer DCDuring (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Of the redlinks, we have lick and a promise and on a wing and a prayer. I haven't tried all possible Verb + NP and Prep + NP combinations. DCDuring (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Category:Deverbals by language, Category:Denominal verbs by languageEdit

Seems to be inconsistently integrated in so far as the latter in its name contains “verbs” but the former does not contain “noun”, and the latter gets categorized as Category:Lemmas subcategories by language but the former as Category:Terms by etymology subcategories by language. Outside the category structure we have Category:Taos deverbal nouns which nobody has noticed. I have no tendency towards any gestalt so far, and I can’t decide either. Furthermore somebody will have to make a complement {{denominal}} for {{deverbal}} – so far there is only an Arabic-specific {{ar-denominal verb}}. Fay Freak (talk) 18:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

A lot of this is redundant to our suffix derivation categories. In many cases, the suffix used already determines what something is derived from. For example, -ness always forms deadjectival nouns, it can't really be anything else. —Rua (mew) 18:47, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Please see Wiktionary:Etymology_scriptorium/2018/May#основать. Per utramque cavernam 19:13, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
True, for “a lot”, and if you know the deep intricacies of Wiktionary’s category structure.
Category:Russian deverbals that contains now 53 entries has only entries the etymology of which consists in just removing the verb ending and using the stem. I see we have for this case Category:Russian words suffixed with -∅ – we just need to implement something like Category:Latin words suffixed with -o that is split by purpose of the suffix, Category:Latin words suffixed with -o (denominative)‎, Category:Latin words suffixed with -o (compound verb) and so on, which is bare laudable. Now you only need to tell people, @Rua, how to create this id stuff, for to me it is a secret thus far.
However this does not work with non-catenative morphology thus far – you may link the previous discussions on those infix categorization matters here, but even if that pattern collecting is solved the derived terms listed at صَلِيب(ṣalīb, cross), for instance, would only be categorized by pattern but nothing would imply that the terms are denominal –, and the point I have made about the categorization and naming of these categories is still there. But I give you green light in any case, if you want to replace all those “[language] deverbals” and “[language] denominal verbs” categorizations by suffigation categories of the format “[language] words suffixed with -∅ [deverbal]”, as well if it concerns action towards categorization of noncatenative morphology language terms, since your idea of uniformity is correct. Fay Freak (talk) 19:49, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Nonconcatenative morphology is still an underexplored part of Wiktionary, which is kind of annoying. But quite often, we simply show the concatenative part as the affix, and then leave a usage note saying what other changes occur when this form of derivation is used. For example on Northern Sami -i and -hit. —Rua (mew) 20:40, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
How to create an affix category with an id: add the id to the definition line in the affix's entry with {{senseid|language code|id}}, add {{affix|language code|affix|id1=id}} (at minimum) to the etymology section of a term that uses the affix, find the resulting red-linked category and create it with {{auto cat}}. — Eru·tuon 20:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, this is easier than I imagined, so it takes the category name from {{senseid}}. I thought it is in some background module data. Now where to document it? Add it to the documentation of {{affix}} under |idN=? This is the main or even only use of this parameter in this template, right? Fay Freak (talk) 21:18, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
It's not that {{senseid}} has any effect on the category name, but that a category with a parenthesis after it, such as Latin words suffixed with -tus (action noun)‎, expects a matching {{senseid}} in the entry for -tus, in this case {{senseid|la|action noun}} because the link in the category description points to -tus#Latin-action_noun, which is the format of the anchor created by {{senseid}}. The |id= type parameters, including in {{affix}}, generally create a link of that type. In {{affix}}, the parameter also has the effect of changing the category name. Sorry, I am not sure if I am explaining this clearly. — Eru·tuon 22:36, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
You explain this clearly. I just rolled it up from that side that I need to choose the name in {{senseid}} that I want to have in the category name so later with affix I will categorize in a reasonably named category because in other cases the id can arbitrary – not that {{senseid}} has an effect on the category name. Fay Freak (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
Our affix system is not sufficient to handle morphological derivation we have to deal with (unless you want us to introduce lambdas...) Serbo-Croatian hardly has the intricacy of Arabic conjugation, but there are plenty of nouns that are created from verbal roots through apophony, and this needs to be categorized somehow. Crom daba (talk) 17:24, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
@Crom daba At least for Indo-European, we do have a system for handling combinations of affixation + ablaut, like on *-os (notice the parentheses showing the root grade) and -ος (-os). Our current system totally fails where there is no affix, though, a case which also exists in Indo-European. For example, there are some Indo-European forms of derivation, called "internal derivation", which are built entirely around changing ablaut grades and accents: *krótus (strength) > *krétus (strong) or τόμος (tómos, slice) > τομός (tomós, sharp). We have no systematic way to indicate this kind of derivation, but it is sorely needed. —Rua (mew) 23:42, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

March 2019Edit

Category:Nama languageEdit

I believe that Category:Nama language should be renamed to Category:Khoekhoe language. The Nama are an ethnic group, but other ethnic groups like the Damara, Haiǁom, and ǂĀkhoe also speak the same language. It's more accurate and inclusive to call it Khoekhoe. Smashhoof (talk) 18:44, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

On Google Books, "Nama language" and "Khoekhoe language" are about equally common. This is misleading, however, because many of the hits refer one of multiple Khoekhoe languages, as the term is used somewhat more broadly by some authors. Further evidence of this is supplied by "speak Nama" being much more common than "speak Khoekhoe" on Google Books. If we restrict ourselves to linguistic literature, "Nama language" is significantly more common than "Khoekhoe language".
In short, we do sometimes use a less common name for a language in order to disambiguate or avoid a name widely considered offensive. The name "Nama" is less inclusive, but also slightly less ambiguous, and seems to be the most common name in usage, pace Wikipedia. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:52, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
The native name is Khoekhoegowab (literally "Khoekhoe language"). "Nama language" may have been more common in the past, but the standardized language today is called "Khoekhoe" or "Khoekhoegowab". The dictionary I have says that "Khoekhoegowab is the Language of mainly the Damara, Haiǁom and Nama." In The Khoesan Languages (2013, Routledge Language Family series), they exclusively refer to the language as Khoekhoe; however, they distinguish between Namibian Khoekhoe (Nama/Damara) and Haiǁom/ǂĀkhoe. "Khoekhoe(gowab)" does seem to be a more accurate and preferred term to me. Smashhoof (talk) 21:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
If you search a digital copy of The Khoesan Languages, you'll see that different authors use different terminology in the book. The sections concerning the language in question call it Khoekhoegowab [well, usually just Kh. for short], which is far less common than either Khoekhoe or Nama and little used in non-scholarly English. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
Looking in my copy of The Khoesan Languages, I see a few usages of "Khoekhoegowab", but "Khoekhoe" seems to be used more. "Khoekhoe (N.Kh.) is strictly a suffixing language...", "Khoekhoe categorizes nouns according to ...". The whole morphology section on the language seems to use "Khoekhoe". The syntax section uses "N.Kh." for "Namibian Khoekhoe(gowab)". Regardless, since the standard language is called Khoekhoegowab, I think it would be best to call it Khoekhoe, as that seems to be equivalent and more common than the full Khoekhoegowab in English. Also, Wikipedia uses the term Khoekhoe (see Khoekhoe language), so it would also make sense to keep the same terminology between wikis. Though, that article does use the term "Nama" more often than "Khoekhoe", which is a bit odd given the title is "Khoekhoe language". Smashhoof (talk) 02:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
I asked someone who knows more about this and they said that Khoekhoegowab is the standard language, taught in schools and used in media, but Nama/Damara is the colloquial spoken language. Locals refer to it as Damaranama, Namadamara, Namataal, or Namagowab. Smashhoof (talk) 23:06, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

(reversed numeral)年Edit

This should be moved to appendix namespace (similar to those in Appendix:English snowclones).-- 17:15, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Created by @Dokurrat. This is obviously a bad title that nobody would ever search for, but I don't really know where to move it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:48, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Can't say I know anything about these entries, but maybe add a usage note under ? — SGconlaw (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
It's not a usage of 年, really... if anything, it's closer to a snowclone, like the anon suggested. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
It's defined as "Used to stress the recentness or modernness of the year", so my take would be that it is sufficiently closely related to . — SGconlaw (talk) 17:29, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Category:English dismissals and Category:Cebuano dismissalsEdit

1 member in this category, whose purpose I cannot discern and whose name seems like poor English to me. Note: "dismissal" is in Module:labels/data and should be removed from there if this fails. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:16, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: What about Category:English dismissals? —Suzukaze-c 04:21, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, suzukaze. Accordingly moved to RFM with both cats listed; I now see what the intent is, but I still think the name is bad. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:24, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
I think it fits in the same idea as Category:en:Greetings, but with a different naming scheme. "Greetings" should probably not be a set category, because sets group words by semantics (i.e. what the words refer to), rather than by function. —Rua (mew) 21:16, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

April 2019Edit

Template:fivefold titulary to Template:egy-fivefold titularyEdit

This appears to be specifically for Ancient Egyptian, so this rename makes the name reflect that. —Rua (mew) 20:52, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

If renamed to begin with egy-, best give it a shorter name, perhaps just Template:egy-name. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 16:20, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Category:en:Greetings to Category:English greetingsEdit

Topical and set categories group terms based on what they refer to, but this category doesn't contain terms for greetings, it contains terms that are greetings. In other words, the name of the category refers to the word itself, not to its meaning, like Category:English nouns and unlike Category:en:Colors. So the category shouldn't be named and categorised like a set category, but instead should be named Category:English greetings. It belongs somewhere in Category:English phrasebook or Category:English terms by semantic function or something like that. —Rua (mew) 21:21, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Category:en:Farewells to Category:English farewellsEdit

As above, these terms do not refer to farewells, they are farewells: the category name pertains to the word rather than the meaning. —Rua (mew) 21:27, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Category:en:Toasts to Category:English toastsEdit

As above. —Rua (mew) 21:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Category:en:Responses to sneezing to Category:English responses to sneezingEdit

Again, as above. —Rua (mew) 21:28, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Wiktionary:English entry guidelines vs "About (language)" in every other languageEdit

Some years ago, there was an RFM to rename all these pages, the discussion of which is archived at Wiktionary talk:English entry guidelines#RFM discussion: November 2015–August 2018. The original nomination mentions "and likewise for other languages", meaning that the intent was to rename these pages in parallel for every language. In the end, only the English page was moved, so that now the English page has a name different from all the others. User:Sgconlaw suggested starting a new discussion instead of moving the pages after the RFM has long been closed.

My own opinion on this is to rename the pages in other languages to match the English one. That was the original intent of the first RFM, and the new name better describes what these pages are for. The name "about" instead suggests something like a Wikipedia page where you can write any interesting fact about the language, which is of course not what they're actually for. Some discussion may be needed regarding the shortcuts of all these pages. They currently follow the format of WT:A(language code), so e.g. WT:AEN but also WT:ACEL-BRY with hyphens in the name. The original shortcuts should probably be kept, at least for a while, but we may want to think of something to match the new page name as well. —Rua (mew) 13:00, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Support. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:17, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Support renaming for accuracy and consistency. —Ultimateria (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
SupportJberkel 23:53, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

May 2019Edit


I think the categories for toponyms (e.g. English terms derived from toponyms) should be moved to a category just called [language] toponyms (e.g. English toponyms). It feels inconsistent to have English terms derived from toponyms while also having English eponyms. —Globins (yo) 01:14, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

A term derived from a toponym is an eponym, but is not a toponym itself. So the current names make sense. —Rua (mew) 11:45, 9 May 2019 (UTC)
Sense 2 for toponym is "a word derived from the name of a place," and the entry mentions eponym as a coordinate term. —Globins (yo) 00:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
@Globins Wiktionary's category structure only follows the first definition, which is the more common meaning. We shouldn't mix up the two definitions. —Rua (mew) 17:52, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
@Rua: In that case, English eponyms should be moved to English terms derived from eponyms since our current category name follows the less common definition of eponym. —Globins (yo) 21:16, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Not really. An eponym is derived from a name. A toponym is a name. So a term derived from a toponym is derived from a name, but a term derived from an eponym is derived from another word that is then derived from a name. They're not equivalent. —Rua (mew) 21:18, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
I think "eponymic terms" would be better if you want to preserve the "name that a term is derived from" sense of eponym (as opposed to the "term derived from a name" sense). "Terms derived from eponyms" seems odd, maybe tautological, to me because a name is not inherently an eponym, but only when we are discussing the fact that a term is derived from it. — Eru·tuon 21:35, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Category:English haplological forms to Category:English haplological wordsEdit

And likewise for other languages. Why "forms"? This makes it look like they are non-lemma forms of some other words, which is definitely not the case for most of the words in the category. I decided to propose "words" because haplology is an intra-word process, not something that applies to multiword terms as far as I know. If people prefer Category:English haplological terms I'm ok with that too. —Rua (mew) 11:41, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Support. —Globins (yo) 00:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Category:Thesaurus into various members of Category:Thesaurus entries by languageEdit

Right now, this contains a mess of various languages, mostly English but also some others. Thesaurus pages have distinct level 2 language sections just like regular entries do. Thus, we should treat thesaurus pages like we do regular entries and split them by language. The topical categories pose a problem, as they also need to be language-specific, but there is no naming scheme for them yet and no category tree. I propose moving their contents into our regular topical and set categories, to avoid creating a parallel tree of topical thesaurus categories. —Rua (mew) 17:48, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree that lumping them into one category is messy, and leads users to take categorization into their own hands. See Category:Danish thesaurus entries, which contains pages with 3 distinct naming schemes! I support putting Thesaurus entries into the existing topical categories. Some Thesaurus categories already are, e.g. Category:Thesaurus:Mathematics. Ultimateria (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Category:Auto parts to Category:Car partsEdit

This was previously submitted to deletion, but kept (why it wasn't RFMed instead I don't know). —Rua (mew) 18:46, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

  Support. DonnanZ (talk) 18:50, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
@Rua, Sgconlaw: The word "automobile" is not common in British English, but I think "car" is used everywhere, hence my preference for Category:Car parts. DonnanZ (talk) 09:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
But car is more ambiguous. DCDuring (talk) 10:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't mind one way or another, but the whole category tree then needs to be renamed for consistency. (@Donnanz: how is car ambiguous? Do you mean it could be confused for, say, a train carriage or something?) — SGconlaw (talk) 10:34, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Well, car is used especially in US English for a railroad car (either freight or passenger), and can be used in BrE for a railway passenger carriage. I feel the word auto can be ambiguous as well; "auto parts" can be used in the UK, but "car parts" is preferred. The word "auto" isn't used for a motor car in the UK. There is another category, Category:Automotive, so Category:Automotive parts may be a solution. DonnanZ (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
I was employed in the motor trade for many years, supplying car parts of all descriptions, even body shells on one or two occasions. DonnanZ (talk) 14:23, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
In that case it seems to me that "Category:Automobile parts" is least ambiguous. I'm not sure "Category:Automotive" is well named (why an adjective?); "Category:Road transport" would be better. — SGconlaw (talk) 15:15, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Category:Nautical also uses an adjective, and there may be others. DonnanZ (talk) 15:46, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, not too hot on that one either. My suggestion would be "Category:Water transport". — SGconlaw (talk) 15:58, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
As long as I can type {{lb|en|car part(s)}} and get the topical category Category:en:Automobile parts, my increasingly arthritic fingers would be happy. DCDuring (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
I can only sympathise. Depending on the outcome here, if you feel like fiddling around with modules I think Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Technology is the right one. DonnanZ (talk) 11:36, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

June 2019Edit

take slaveEdit

to taken slave. The forms take slave, takes slave, and taking slave appear unlikely to meet RfV. take slave is already at RfV; the other two forms are redlinks at this time. DCDuring (talk) 20:27, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

have one's hands tiedEdit

As has been pointed out here, "have" isn't part of the term. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:24, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

As I see it, have isn't part of the metaphor, but it is part of an expression that is not in turn a form of tie someone's hands. The passive (one's) hands are/were/being/been tied are such forms, though none make for a good lemma entry or likely searches. DCDuring (talk) 13:38, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Thanks. Also the second meaning of tied: restricted (which even offers the quotation: but the county claims its hands are too tied) --Backinstadiums (talk) 14:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
It's still a metaphor: a county doesn't have directly have hands. DCDuring (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
For an example of tie someone’s hands being used in the active voice: “It will tie our hands for another nine years with respect to a labor contact [sic] with no layoff clauses and raises that are built in.”
In general, for any expression of form “⟨VERBsomeone’sNOUN⟩”, there is a corresponding expression “ have/get one’sNOUN⟩ ⟨VERBed⟩”. For example, cut someone’s hairhave one’s hair cut. Or knock someone’s socks offget one’s socks knocked off. Or lower someone’s earshave one’s ears lowered. If the expression is idiom, sometimes we have one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both.  --Lambiam 21:24, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. Unless the active form is very uncommon, I'd prefer it as the lemma. I don't think that we would be wrong have both the active-voice expression and the have and/or get expressions, even though we could argue that it is a matter of grammar that one can transform certain expressions in the way Lambian describes. DCDuring (talk) 22:31, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Request to merge Haitian Vodoun Culture language [hvc] into Haitian Creole language [ht]Edit

According to Wikipedia and Ethnology, hvc "appears to not be an actual language, but rather an assortment of words, songs, and incantations – some secret – from various languages once used in Haitian Vodoun ceremonies". Our only entries for it are Langaj and Langay, i.e. the two forms of the lect's name for itself. I suggest we consider it a variety of ht instead. Thoughts? Pinging @EncycloPetey as the creator of the two entries, although he hasn't been around for over a month. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:00, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Although Ethnologue says it is "probably not a separate language", it does not say which language to which it might belong. So merging it into another language would be original research, unless a source documents its inclusion in Haitian Creole. Nota bene: at the time I created the entries, neither WP nor ethnologue expressed doubts about the distinctness of Haitian Vodoun Culture language. I am aware of its current doubtfulness, but it could also be considered a liturgical language in its own right. Without some authoritative statement, I'd hesitate to merge it into another language. There is more than one language spoken in Haiti. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:28, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
Support. Hebblethwaite says in the excellent Vodou Songs in Haitian Creole and English that this is not only not a language, but that "[t]he words and chunks have mostly become incomprehensible to Vodouists and have a ritual or mystical purpose." Apparently the langaj used with different loa can be from entirely different languages from different parts of Africa. The entries we have are indisputably Haitian Creole (and which I think should not be capitalised according to orthographic rules). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

August 2019Edit


Needs to be split into lowercase, uppercase, mixed case. --Pious Eterino (talk) 10:06, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Not controversial, IMHO. Just add the missing entries. You could then RfD the extra definitions at [[gox]], just to be careful. DCDuring (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, PE, be bold and UUACs --Gibraltar Rocks (talk) 23:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

devil a ...Edit

I request that someone renames the entry devil a bit to devil a, because in practice "devil a" can be followed by any noun phrase, and it is neither practical nor desirable to have a headword for every combination. I then would also add divil a as a separate headword with no more content than referring it to "devil a" as a dialect variant. JonRichfield (talk) 08:13, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Category:English oxymorons to Category:English contradictions in termsEdit

We say ourselves in the entry for oxymoron that its use to mean "contradiction in terms" is loose and sometimes proscribed (despite the fact that many people use it this way nowadays). We say much the same thing at contradiction in terms as well.

The so-called oxymorons in this category are all or almost all contradictions in terms, where the contradiction is accidental or comes about only by interpreting the component words in a different way from their actual meanings in the phrase. An oxymoron in the strict sense has an intentional contradiction. I think we should be more precise about this, in the same way as we already are with using the term "blend" instead of "portmanteau", which has a narrower meaning. I therefore suggest we move this page to "Category:English contradictions in terms" (but see my second comment below). Likewise for any corresponding categories for other languages. — Paul G (talk) 06:51, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I think this category should be retained but restricted to true oxymorons, such as "bittersweet" and "deafening silence". Ones such as "man-child" and "pianoforte" are not intended to be oxymoronic and are only accidentally contradictions in terms. — Paul G (talk) 17:18, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Support. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 01:30, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

September 2019Edit

Merge Category:Czech nouns ending in "-ismus" with Category:Czech words suffixed with -ismusEdit

Tagged but not listed. Since most words ending on “-ismus” are loanwords, the “ending in” category seems the better merge target.  --Lambiam 16:15, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Church Slavonic from Old Church SlavonicEdit

Discussion started at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2019/September#I_want_to_add_Church_Slavonic_terms. A new language code for a newer version of Church Slavonic? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:01, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


Three L2 sections for New World languages have diacritics that would seem to require that they be moved. I have no familiarity with these languages. DCDuring (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

If the diacritics are like macrons in Latin, only aiding in pronouncing the term or the like, they may be fine where they are. I don't have time at this moment to check. - -sche (discuss) 15:38, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

October 2019Edit

Canonical name of "fan"Edit

Our canonical name for fan is "Fang (Guinea)", which is unfortunate since it isn't spoken in Guinea. It's spoken primarily in Gabon and Equatorial Guinea. I'd recommend calling it "Fang (Gabon)" since there seem to be more speakers in Gabon than in Eq.G. and since the name of Gabon is shorter. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:53, 17 October 2019 (UTC) I'd recommend calling it "Fang (Equatorial Guinea)" since according to Ethnologue there are more speakers in that country than in Gabon. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:09, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

The fact that there are even some speakers in Cameroon (according to Wikipedia) but it's not the same as "Fang (Cameroon)" is icing on the confusion-cake... and they're both Bantoid languages, so disambiguating by family doesn't help, and both spoken in Central Africa, so we can't disambiguate by mere region as we sometimes do. - -sche (discuss) 16:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
@-sche: They are different branches of Bantoid, though. We could call [fak] "Fang (Beboid)" and [fan] "Fang (Bantu)". —Mahāgaja · talk 22:04, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Ah, true; I saw that Wikipedia classified Fang language (Cameroon) as "Western Beboid" but caveated that it was not necessarily a valid family, but if Beboid overall is valid, then that works and is clearer (IMO) than picking just one of the countries to list. I would support renaming them in that way. The only other languages that come to mind which are disambiguated by family are "Austronesian Mor" and "Papuan Mor" both spoken in West Papua), which are mentioned on WT:LANG; probably we should change those to "Mor (Austronesian)" and "Mor (Papuan)" for consistency. - -sche (discuss) 18:00, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
I was going to rename Austronesian and Papuan Mor to use the 'parenthetical, postpositive' naming format for consistency with the Fangs and with how languages with country-name disambiguators are named, but I notice we also have e.g. Austronesian and Papuan Gimi, Austronesian and Sepik Mari (and some other Maris), and several other such languages, and I don't have time to rename all of those, so consistency will have to wait. (There is also "Sepik Iwam", but it appears to actually get called that, to distinguish it from the other Sepik language called Iwam which is spoken in the same place and belongs to the same Iwam subfamily of Upper Sepik. Confusing!) - -sche (discuss) 08:41, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

December 2019Edit

為止, 到……為止Edit

Can 為止 be used without ? —Suzukaze-c 07:21, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: In modern varieties, basically no, but there are some fossilized constructions like 迄今為止. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:40, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
Hm, then I suppose having both are fine (unless someone thinks 到……為止 should go). 為止 might benefit from usage notes. —Suzukaze-c 09:51, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

January 2020Edit

איך מגיעים לתחנת הרכבתEdit

איך מגיעים לשדה התעופהEdit

Any particular reason these entries seem to have 1st person plural when the English translation entry says "I"? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:09, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

put someone in the pictureEdit

Move to in the picture: be in the picture, keep in the picture. Canonicalization (talk) 12:16, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

be all ears and all earsEdit

Merge. Canonicalization (talk) 10:45, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Merging Gaulish and LeponticEdit

I'd like to address merging Lepontic with Gaulish because it is already included in the English article provided and the terms are frequently the same except for some differences in endings development without any necessary declension change. Comparing this to Latin, as it is merged with Old Latin, this may also be extended to Gaulish and Lepontic. Furthermore, Cisalpine Gaulish is already encompassed by Gaulish even though it was written in the Old Italic alphabet just like Lepontic. HeliosX (talk) 19:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Having read both Lepontic language and Cisalpine Gaulish, I'm not convinced they're similar enough to warrant merging. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:06, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
I generally push for a conservative treatment for extinct languages with small, finite corpora. We can afford to over-split a little, if that even is the case here, and be no worse off for doing so. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

'Cities in Foo' and 'Towns in Foo'Edit

@Donnanz, Fay Freak, Rua I'm not sure what the real difference is between a city and a town, and I suspect most people don't know either. For this reason I think we should maybe merge the two into a single 'Cities and towns in Foo' category. Benwing2 (talk) 03:54, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

I oppose this merger. I would not think to look for a category with such an unintuitive name, and I do not know of any examples where this is problematic. Wikipedia seems to be able to choose which word to use without trouble, so why can't we? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:36, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
Eliminating one of them is a good idea where there is no meaningful distinction between cities and towns. But that's going to be a country-specific decision: England makes the decision, the Netherlands does not. I think in cases without a distinction, we should keep "cities" and eliminate "towns". —Rua (mew) 10:15, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
I wouldn't recommend merging them. It's a complex subject though, and the rules defining cities and towns can differ from country to country, and from state to state in the USA; I have come across "cities" with a population of less than 1,000 in the USA, sometimes around 50, but apparently they have that status. Cities in the UK have that status as granted by a monarch, towns can be harder to define in metropolitan areas, and villages can call themselves towns if they have a town council. Some villages large enough to be towns prefer to keep the village title. DonnanZ (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
The odds that editors will accurately/consistently distinguish these categories when adding (the template that generate) them ... seems low. However, even if the categories are merged, that problem will remain on the level of the displayed definitions. And, apparently some users above want to keep them distinct. So, meh. - -sche (discuss) 05:36, 18 January 2020 (UTC)
I can see arguments for both sides, actually. The idea needs a lot more thought, as you would probably have to drag in villages etc. as well. DonnanZ (talk) 14:15, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
Could merge them into Municipalities in Foo and have the various alternatives point to that category. Of course there are some "cities" which contain several municipalities, but I don't think there is a word which comprises every form of village/town/hamlet/city/urban area. - TheDaveRoss 12:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)


This has both a Jamaican Creole section and an English section labeled as "Jamaican". I undid the removal of the English section by an IP before I realized what they were doing, but I don't want to revert myself and take it off the radar before someone else has a look at it to make sure the English section really is unnecessary. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:39, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Thesaurus:y'all to Thesaurus:youEdit

...or Thesaurus:you plural or something. We probably shouldn't be using just one dialect's form as the name. At Thesaurus:you, it could also collect other forms of singular you in their own sense-section, like thou and your ass, and things that are synonyms of both senses, like u. - -sche (discuss) 22:39, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Where I'm from, y'all is either slang, or has the connotation of being something a hic redneck from the Southern States would say. You guys is the more normal way to express it, or in more formal contexts, you all or you folks. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 01:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Where I'm from, y'all is perfectly standard in all registers while you guys makes you sound like a damyankee, but I acknowledge that that isn't the case in other varieties of English. I'd be in favor of moving the page to Thesaurus:you (plural). —Mahāgaja · talk 09:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Educated Southerners use y'all in all spoken registers AFAICT, but not much in writing. DCDuring (talk) 16:24, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

February 2020Edit

red cunt hair to cunt hairEdit

I propose to rename red cunt hair to cunt hair, which can certainly cover red cunt hair as a more specific version of the slang term. The common abbreviation is even "CH," not "rch," at least in North America, as it refers to a very fine, albeit it specifically undefined, unit of measurement.

Alternatively, I propose to create a separate entry for cunt hair. Nevertheless, one of these two proposals needs to occur.

--Dmehus (talk) 02:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Since they both seem to be attested, the entry shouldn't be completely moved. It should be kept as an alternative form or synonym. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:52, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Thesaurus:make holeEdit

To Thesaurus:make a hole, as was suggested on the talk page many years ago. The current title is simply poor English. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:01, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

  Support. Canonicalization (talk) 11:25, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

go out on a limbEdit

Merge with out on a limb. Canonicalization (talk) 11:25, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Adding Old OmaguaEdit

This helpful source strongly suggests that early texts written are sufficiently distinct from Omagua (omg) to be considered a separate language. I don't know much about it, but if this is right, we need a new code for Old Omagua, maybe tup-oom. @Lvovmauro, -sche. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:24, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Meh. I don't object, but I'm not convinced it's necessary. We're talking about a time difference less than that between modern and Middle English, many of the differences seem to be in whether various morphemes remain attested into the present in various positions (or, conversely, whether modern ones happened to be found in the sparse early corpus), spelling variations are clearly attributable to texts being written by potentially non-fluent outsiders vs modern linguists and natives, and modern Omagua is small and dying. (Fox is another language which underwent changes in a relatively short time period that might be considered substantial, but it seems to still be treated as one language.) It seems to me like we could adequately, and perhaps even more sensibly, handle the differences by labelling words and spellings obsolete where necessary, lemmatizing the modern forms (and conversely labelling words/forms as modern developments in cases where we can tell that they are as opposed to that they just weren't attested in the old texts). - -sche (discuss) 21:12, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
Some languages do change a lot faster than others due to social pressures (hence why glottochronology doesn't really work). I found the differences in morphology and lexicon significant, especially in the hopes that someday, someone will build the infrastructure for (modern) Omagua here. But if you're not convinced, I'm fine with shelving this; I certainly won't be working on Tupian stuff myself. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:11, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

funny papers and funny paperEdit

Probably should be merged ~somehow~, or at least refer to each other. —Suzukaze-c 03:30, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

There is a slight loss of precision in the synonymy from merging, but I have made funny paper the lemma, without (yet) deleting funny papers, which should, IMO, be just the plural of funny paper. If someone thinks the possibility of lost precision outweighs the more straightforward presentation for normal users, please discuss. DCDuring (talk) 14:53, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

L.S., LS, lectori salutem, locus sigilliEdit

The only related wiktionary entry that now appears is that of L.S.; no entries appear for the terms being abbreviated (!), and search of the full terms does not even currently link to the abbreviation/initialism page. (Nor does a seach of LS bring one to a disambiguation of L.S. and LS!) All of these issues can be rectified easily by any registered editor with a reasonable understanding of disambiguation and markup (e.g., through creation of disambiguating tags and pages, and through duplication of relevant content for new definitions pages based on the abbreviation page).

Note, as an academic, I will not regulary or traceably work on Wiktionary, because of its lack of sourcing requirements for entry and note content. This leaves it with no basis for veracity, its persistent state, and a poor state indeed. (This weakness is more significant than that of Wikipedia, which is weak in largest part for its failure to adhere to its own rules and guidelines regarding sourcing.) Cheers. 2601:246:C700:19D:49BF:AECD:6AA6:2E34 16:26, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I just don't understand what you're after. I reverted your edit because it radically changed what seemed to be an ok entry. We don't have disambiguation pages on Wiktionary and I suggest you read up on our rules and guidelines before you start deleting info again. --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeet HayEdit

yeet hay? —Suzukaze-c 20:33, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

as tight as Dick's hatbandtight as Dick's hatbandEdit

A look at e.g. google books:"is tight as Dick's hatband" shows that this is often used without the "as", and Ngrams suggests the form with "as" is even too much less common to plot. Various other sites that are concerned with phrases like this seem to be divided, some including the "as" and some dropping it. - -sche (discuss) 09:51, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

centrifugal forceEdit

We have four definitions here and probably ought to have one; compare centripetal force, with its one, simple def. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:36, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

See w:History of centrifugal and centripetal forces. The article just lacks cites, dates, etc to support the historical definitions. I suppose that we should just give up on trying to cover the historical definitions and leave that to our betters at WP. DCDuring (talk) 17:55, 12 March 2020 (UTC)


Attested only in West Germanic, so it should be moved to Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/smalt. I did that already, but Rua reverted me, so I'm bringing it here for discussion. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:25, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

It cannot have been formed in Proto-West Germanic, as there was no productive means to do so. Therefore, it must have existed in Proto-Germanic. —Rua (mew) 20:26, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Ablaut was still very productive in Proto-West Germanic, as it is still today in Germanic languages. One might claim there is no productive means to form dove as the past tense of dive or snuck as the past tense of sneak in modern English, and yet they exist. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:31, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that ablaut was productive even in the most recent stage of Proto-Germanic, let alone Proto-West Germanic. What evidence do we have that it was? —Rua (mew) 20:39, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Well, if the fact that it's productive in the modern Germanic languages doesn't convince you, I don't know what will. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:59, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
In what way is it productive in the modern languages? —Rua (mew) 10:16, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
I just said: we still use it in modern English to form past tenses. And often in ways that don't even have parallels, so it can't be simply analogy. Dive/dove can be formed from drive/drove, but sneak/snuck and drag/drug don't have direct parallels that allow us to call them simple analogy, because there aren't any other verbs in /iːk//ʌk/ or /æɡ//ʌɡ/, so the only way speakers can have created them is by knowing that the language has a general process of ablaut. And even in Proto-Germanic *smultą/*smaltą isn't exactly a productive pattern: PG didn't generally create exact synonyms of nouns by changing their ablaut grade without any other affixation. So this derivation is just as irregular in PG as it is in PWG, so why not call it PWG since it doesn't exist outside of West Germanic? —Mahāgaja · talk 11:37, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: English drag derives from a strong verb, and was influenced by Old Norse draga with its indicative past "dró-". English sneak could also be derived from a strong verb but why its has snuck is beyond me, possibly by analogy. dove comes from a strong verb Proto-Germanic *dūbaną and dive from *dūbijaną. English drive has as its past participle "drove, drave, driv" with driv being the original, drove possible from *draib and drave possibly from before Middle English? "draib" (PG) -> "drāf" (OE) -> "drove" (E). None of this points towards productivity of ablaut or of the -an suffix but that English can reshape strong verbs by merging weak verbs or reshaping their pattern through analogy. 𐌷𐌻𐌿𐌳𐌰𐍅𐌹𐌲𐍃 𐌰𐌻𐌰𐍂𐌴𐌹𐌺𐌹𐌲𐌲𐍃 (talk) 21:13, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
Consider also yeet, which is a running joke among young people online. They've decided that the past tense form is yote, which, given that it's completely made up, has no historical process to explain it whatsoever. That means that whoever made this up was aware of ablaut and (sort of) how it works.
Besides, this wouldn't be the first case of a form appearing to be in complete violation of all the rules of historical linguistics. It's always been a matter of probability, with the occasional exception proving the rule. Those poor early Germanic people didn't have access to the Neo-Grammarian literature, so they can be excused for getting it wrong now and then... Chuck Entz (talk) 06:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


Attested only in West Germanic, so it should be moved to Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/smelti. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:28, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

What would its PWG etymology be? —Rua (mew) 20:29, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Same as its PG etymology, but updated: *smalt + *-i. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:33, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
And was the *-ī suffix still productive? —Rua (mew) 20:40, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
It seems likely, considering the suffix is still productive in modern German, especially in combination with ge- (e.g. Getue). —Mahāgaja · talk 20:57, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
Ah, fair enough then. I do wonder if there are attested cases of derivations without *ga-, that we know are of post-PWG date. —Rua (mew) 10:22, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Retiring Moroccan Amazigh [zgh]Edit

We renamed this code from "Standard Moroccan Amazigh" to "Moroccan Amazigh", but failed to note that the "standard" part was key. This is a standardised register of the dialect continuum of Berber languages in Morocco, promoted by the Moroccan government since 2011 as an official language. Marijn van Putten says this is essentially Central Atlas Tamazight [tzm], but most of the people producing texts in it are native speakers of Tashelhit [shi], so there is a bit of re-koineisation. However, if we move forward with good coverage of the Berber languages, every entry in [zgh] will be a duplicate of [tzm] or else a duplicate of [shi] marked with some sort of dialectal context label. By the way, the fact that there is an ISO code seems to be a political consideration rather than a linguistic one; compare the case of "Filipino", which we merged into Tagalog, or "Standard Estonian", which we merged into Estonian. @Fenakhay, -scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:31, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, I see it's a rather recent attempt at standardization, too. I don't feel like I know enough about Tamazight to be confident about what to do, but it does seem like, if this is based on tzm, it could be handled as tzm (perhaps even, instead of putting "non-[ordinary-]tzm" entries at shi+label, they could be tzm+label, unless they're obviously shi words). - -sche (discuss) 15:44, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
Generally, it seems the [shi] words are quite obvious; the main differences between [tzm] and [shi] are lexical (as far as I can tell, [tzm] has more internal diversity w/r/t phonology than differences with [shi]). But they're in a continuum anyway, and WP claims that there's debate on where to draw the dividing line. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:35, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
And “Moroccan Amazigh” does not sound like a language name anyway if you have not been told it is one, it seems like “Berber as spoken in Morocco”, another reason to remove it. Fay Freak (talk) 15:59, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


If I'm posting this on the wrong request page, I'd greatly appreciate redirection.

Ideally, this module should split into three: -izar, -aizar, and -eizar. As it is currently, this module generates orthographically incorrect conjugations for three verbs.

This module is currently used for five verbs: academizar, enraizar, europeizar, plurinacionalizar, and tematizar. But it is fully correct for only two of them: enraizar and europeizar. For the other three verbs (academizar, plurinacionalizar, and tematizar), it generates incorrect "í"s where "i"s are warranted. This stems from the rules of stress placement in Spanish, which hold that an "i" immediately after a vowel does not receive stress unless expressly indicated with an acute accent; for the three incorrectly-conjugated verbs, this results in unnecessary acute accents.

Put another way: this module generates the two correct conjugations: enraízo and europeízo; and three incorrect conjugations: academízo, plurinacionalízo, and tematízo; the three incorrect ones should read: academizo, plurinacionalizo, and tematizo

As a solution, I propose that enraizar link to a new module, -aizar; and that europeizar link to a new module, -eizar; both of which will retain the acute accents. -izar, in turn, will have extraneous acute accents removed, and will remain the linked module for academizar, plurinacionalizar, and tematizar.

An editor will see that I began this process, but reverted my edits because I ran into difficulties correctly formatting the new Module:es-conj/data/-ar/-eizar module. For a more capable and savvy editor, however, this will likely be fairly simple. --Zhanmusi (talk) 21:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

What problems did you have? You should add new modules to Module:es-conj/data/paradigms (I have added -eizar). DTLHS (talk) 05:53, 20 March 2020 (UTC)


{{R:egy:EDE}} (vol. 3, p. 201) has a whole page dedicated to this complex in Chadic, and concludes that two separate roots have been conflated by Jungraithmayr & Shimizu. Takács reconstructs the form given by the A languages as *h-m (comparing Egyptian hmh (saliva), Iraqw hamee (sweat), etc), and the form given by the B languages as *y-m (comparing Proto-Semitic *yamm- (sea)). He is not a Chadicist, to be sure, but his collation of sources is very comprehensive, and avoids the otherwise awkward *y > *h that this reconstruction demands. (As an aside, where the hell did they get the third consonant of *y-m-n from when none of the descendants seem to have it?) @Allahverdi VerdizadeΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Emoticons that use a low lineEdit

These emoticons should be moved to "Unsupported titles/" because they use a low line (which is not a supported character in titles):

One has the same page for different characters ("* *" and "*_*"):

Two emoticons with a low line are already in "Unsupported titles/":

J3133 (talk) 08:01, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

April 2020Edit

Replace [noq]Edit

Van de Velde et al. (ch.2, by Hammarström) report that confusion over the name "Ngongo" led to Maho (2009) and other references as claiming this to be a language in zone H, which does not actually exist (or if it did, it is extinct and unattested, because those Ngongo people speak Bushoong). There is another Ngongo language that does exist and needs a code, in zone B, which WP refers to as "West Ngongo" (not sure why). I think we should retire this code and create a new exceptional code; both peoples are in the DRC and both languages were claimed to be Bantu, so there is no effective parenthetical we can apply, but a new code might reduce confusion. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:07, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

One argument against is that Van de Velde et al. do use [noq] for the zone B language. So there's precedent, but it's still asking for trouble IMO. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:46, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
@-sche, Mahagaja: In this (probably overwhelming) flood of discussions, this is the one least based on linguistic criteria and on which I am most uncertain on how to proceed, so I'd really like to hear some opinions. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:36, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
I don't know anything about Bantu languages, but how about just merging it into [yaf]? —Mahāgaja · talk 18:48, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Maybe I wasn't clear — the putative zone H language doesn't exist, so it can be considered merged into [yaf], but the question is whether to use this code for the real language of the same name in zone B as some references now do. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:43, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Oh, OK. In that case I suppose if there is a precedent for using [noq] for the Zone B language, we can do the same. We should have a WT:ANOQ page explaining what we're doing, though. —Mahāgaja · talk 05:25, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
We could optimistically hope that, somewhat like with vmf, Ethnologue/SIL will one day "re-scope" the code to refer to the real language... or they might reitre it and grant a new code. Eh. I think there's a case for either course of action. How much content are we anticipating having in this language? If it's not much (where a shorter code would be easier to remember and type), a new code would be clearer, IMO. - -sche (discuss) 06:13, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
@-sche: Yeah, I have no idea what Ethnologue will do — or if they even notice for a while. As for content, there won't be much for a long time; I searched a PhD thesis and a couple papers on that group, but I can't even find the word for "water" in Ngongo. Anyway, Mahagaja's inclination and yours seem to be in opposite directions, and I still feel undecided... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:47, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
If there's not going to be much (any??) content, then I would argue clarity is more important than brevity; a new code would be unique to this language, and could be changed later as needed, whereas re-using the code for the spurious language makes for unclarity about whether we also mean the spurious language, especially if anyone were to use it for the spurious language, or in a way where we couldn't tell whether it was for the spurious (but ISO-intended) language or our intended language, e.g. in adding a word that someone (mis)recorded or that or even just mentioning it in an etymology as "a cognate may exist in [x]" or the like. If the two are not related, then my guess is Ethnologue will eventually catch and retire rather than reassign the spurious code... in the case of vmf, it was apparent what language was most likely intended and they just scoped/definend it wrong, so it makes sense that they later fixed it rather than retired it. - -sche (discuss) 17:09, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Merge [dov] into [toi]Edit

Van de Velde et al. (ch.2, by Hammarström) say: "Dombe is a derogatory nickname for Tonga found in Hwange district of Zimbabwe". This raises an issue with [toi], which we currently call "Tonga (Zambia)" (to distinguish it from "Tonga (Malawi)" and "Tonga (Mozambique)") — it's spoken in Zimbabwe too. The WP article is called "Tonga (Zambia and Zimbabwe)", which is awfully awkward name for a language spoken by 1.5 million people. I think we may have to cut our losses and stick with "Tonga (Zambia)" even after the merger. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:51, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

@-sche, Smashhoof, anyone have feelings about "Tonga (Zambia)" rather than "Tonga (Zambia and Zimbabwe)"? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:59, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
@-sche, Smashhoof, Mahagaja: Reminder that I'm still looking for input on this one. When you see a country name in a parenthetical disambiguation in a language's canonical name, do you assume that the language is exclusively spoken in that country? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
At least I would assume it's spoken primarily in Zambia, as in maybe at least 67% of speakers are in Zambia. But why not use subfamilies instead of countries as disambiguators? [toi]/[dov] could be "Tonga (Botatwe)", [toh] could be "Tonga (Southern Bantu)", and [tog] could be "Tonga (Nyasa)". —Mahāgaja · talk 06:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: "Primarily" is certainly correct here. But the idea of using subfamilies is an intriguing suggestion that I hadn't considered. My only fear is that those subfamilies are not very well known by any terms, as such classification is relatively recent, and to someone unfamiliar with the classification system, the word "Botatwe" would be meaningless and the concept of "Southern Bantu" would be ambiguous. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
I would personally prefer the more accurate label Tonga (Zambia and Zimbabwe), even if it's a bit clumsy. But I'm not opposed to keeping it as Tonga (Zambia) if you prefer. What I'm confused about is why you want to merge [dov] and [toi]. The chapter you're referencing splits [dov] as a separate language Toka-Leya, which suggests that language isn't mutually intelligible with Tonga. Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 17:25, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@Smashhoof: Thank you for checking! I read that footnote as meaning that the "Toka-Leya dialects" were to be thought of as dialects of Tonga, but I see that Hammarström does give the sum of Toka, Leya, and "Dombe" its own line as a language. I went to check Hachipola (1991), who did a study on eight Tonga-group lects, including Toka, and says: " [] Toka informants all insisted that they were all legitimately Tonga. Valley speakers in particular consider their speech as the 'purer' form of Tonga of which Plateau is the corrupted version [MK: note that Plateau is standard Zambian Tonga]. The speakers of Plateau, Valley and Toka can also understand speakers of Ila, but with some difficulty. However, conversation can be carried out between, say, a Plateau speaker and an Ila speaker each using their own speech form. This is also true of Lenje on the one hand and Plateau on the other [] ". I glanced through the lexical items in the second half of the dissertation and found that these three lects were quite similar, and Toka might be closer to Valley Tonga than to Plateau Tonga. I'm really not sure where to draw the line, especially since we (by default) consider Valley and Plateau to both be [toi]. What do you think? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge I'm not sure what "Valley" refers to specifically. But I would follow Hammarström (and Glottolog) by classifying Toka, Leya, and "Dombe" as [dov]. Smashhoof (Talk · Contributions) 20:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Remove avl “Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic languageEdit

An absurd language name apparently copied from glottologue. This is not even attestable, nor its synonym Levantine Bedawi Arabic, and no native would ever use this to create an entry. “Bedawi” is = bedouin. The “characteristics” in the Wikipedia article Northwest Arabian Arabic linked are in every or many Arabic dialects. There are difference in urban and desert-dweller speech everywhere but one sorts these speeches under the regiolects, so it would be Egyptian Arabic, South Levantine Arabic, South Levantine Arabic, Najdi Arabic. Fay Freak (talk) 13:11, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Remove aao “Algerian Saharan ArabicEdit

Unattestable or SOP language name fudged by the for-profit language database Ethnologue; the linked Wikipedia pages will always stay stubs. The Verkehrsanschauung sorts this under Algerian Arabic. There is a continuum with Moroccan Arabic. Pinging @Fenakhay following our considerations at Talk:زرودية; nobody has ever thought such a category. One can attest the term “Saharan Arabic” but this is of course not meant to denote one language. As distinguished from Hassānīya Arabic one could need codes eastwards for some dialects spoken in the Sahara and Sahel, like for Malian and Nigerien Arabic – Chadian Arabic we have as shu. Fay Freak (talk) 13:31, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I think the idea here is that Algerian Arabic as spoken in Algiers belongs on a continuum that speakers in the southern and western desert of Algeria (inclusing many who are not ethnically Arab) do not belong on. I don't see the use of this code, though, because that speech definitely counts as Hassaniya. (As for the other countries on the fringe, we seem to count Nigeria and Cameroon under Chadian Arabic, which is less than ideal, but then again, I think that our whole system needs to be more like Chinese to be functional at all.) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:18, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Merge [aec] “Saidi Arabic” into [arz] “Egyptian ArabicEdit

Hardly attestable language name. Occurrences for it turn out as “Saʿiidi Arabic” for example. “Upper Egyptian Arabic” (I don’t see use of “Upper Egypt Arabic”, but this is a detail) is sometimes posited, variously ill-defined because of superstratum influence from the Nile Delta, but this is usually not accepted as distinct language and can well be an sum-of-parts term; Arabic Wikipedia clearly says Ṣaʿīdīy Arabic is “within the Egyptian Arabic dialects”. There are but some isoglosses dividing Arabic-speaking Egypt latitudinally, but so one can shed urban and bedouin speech and Muslim and Christian speech. English Wikipedia says “the realisation of /q/ as [ɡ] is retained (normally realised in Egyptian Arabic as [ʔ]” but this is the speech of the desert vs. the speech in the largest cities and [ɡ] for ق(q) can be found in northern Egyptian bedouins. Most natives of Upper Egypt would use the code for Egyptian Arabic, and I would too sometimes with label “Upper Egypt” or more specific labels. I have created the single entry in “Saidi Arabic” and only because there was this code. Fay Freak (talk) 13:54, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Merge [ayn] “Sanaani Arabic”, [acq] “Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic”, [ayh] “Hadrami Arabic” into a new “Yemeni Arabic”Edit

The categories are ill-defined; the second one is unattestable. Yemen is a dialectologically complicated area – the material is even partially collected outside of Yemen, as for instance the Dictionary of Post-Classical Yemeni Arabic 1990 is surveyed in Israel – with many isoglosses and the number of distinct languages is multiplied at will if one is oblivious of SOP designations of lects so for this reason, apart from nobody being able to safely use these categories, it is not wise to distinguish at the L2 level already. If you look into the Dialect Atlas of North Yemen and Adjacent Areas published by Brill four years ago and probably also Saint Elbakyan you will forget those categories and won’t be able to map content onto the codes. Apart from that the distinction is inconsistent with the fact that we have a code for “Judeo-Yemeni Arabic” jye – as if Jewish speech in Yemen were one language while Muslim speech were three! I just mention here that I find “Judeo-Arabic” and its sub-languages suspicious, it could all be only Classical Arabic or Arabic dialects with some peculiarities written in Hebrew script, remaining from a time when Wiktionary did not use {{spelling of}} for this purpose. The Jews might deal with it themselves. Fay Freak (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I pinged you in a separate discussion above about Judeo-Arabic. As for Yemen... it is true that the codes are oversplit, but it is also true that the WAD attests to the fact that when Hejazi and Omani speakers disagree about a word, chances are that North Yemen agrees with the Hejaz or Egypt, and that South Yemen agrees with Oman. The existence of Piamenta's dictionary gives me hope for treating Yemen as a unit, but I don't know how he does it (do you have a PDF?). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
Nay, I do not. Fay Freak (talk) 18:36, 5 April 2020 (UTC)
I find this “South Yemen” and “North Yemen” part difficult and think that one needs an elevation profile of Southwest Arabia to dissect the Arabic dialects of and close to Yemen. Fay Freak (talk) 18:41, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Template:eggcorn ofEdit

To Template:misconstruction of.

"Eggcorn" is a lovely term for our own amusement, but it is an inside joke that makes Wiktionary more closed to normal users. I believe that a term like misconstruction is more understandable to normal people and includes all eggcorns, mondegreens, etc. DCDuring (talk) 19:52, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

A Google search for eggcorn brings up Wikipedia for the first entry. A Google search for misconstruction brings up "is misconstruction a real word" and dictionaries. Eggcorn might be slightly whimsical, but misconstruction is not a word used by normal people.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Well, the whole concept is not discussed by "normal people". Misconstruction is immediately understandable to the average educated English speaker, even if they've never heard the term before; eggcorn isn't. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:14, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
Keep as is. It links to the entry eggcorn, so users are never more than a click away from comprehension. If you think it's an inside joke, then the in-group is all of linguistics, and we might apply the same logic to eliminating the word illative from our entries — only linguists know what it means, and why should we use the most exact word when a vaguer one might do? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Keep. I don't like dumbing things down to appeal to the broadest population possible. What about the people who want more precise information, or who want to learn whimsical words to describe things? I'm quite happy with us filling a niche that other dictionaries don't fill, since that's why I use Wiktionary in the first place. Besides, the kind of people who aren't interested in expanding their vocabulary tend not to look up words in the dictionary very much anyway. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 16:02, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
FWIW I proposed something similar earlier / further up the page, #Template:eggcorn_of_into_Template:misconstruction_of. I think the issue is less that the term is opaque, and more that the distinction is fuzzy/questionable, compare my comments above. - -sche (discuss) 17:35, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

until one is blue in the faceEdit

to blue in the face (now a redirect to until one is blue in the face).

In addition of all the tense, person, and number variants (also contractions) of the current entry one can find variants omitting the pronoun, adding adverbs, using till or 'til instead of until; [VERB] oneself blue in the face; go|become|turn blue in the face; and blue-in-the-face and blue in the face as adjectives outside any of these expressions. The unchanging core of these is the set phrase blue in the face. It also has medical use (synonym cyanotic), which renders the figurative sense evolution and meaning obvious. DCDuring (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

live in the momentEdit

Move to in the moment: also used with be. PUC – 19:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


The reconstructed infinitive form is useful to understand what the underlying verb is but it is never used in a sentence to convey meaning, like Azerbaijani *imək, Uzbek *emoq. — 23:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:Suppletive adjectives by language, Category:Suppletive adverbs by language, Category:Suppletive nouns by language, Category:Suppletive verbs by languageEdit

Misleading category names. —⁠This unsigned comment was added by (talk).


The traditional form should be 手捲 when it means "temaki" (see [6]). --theDarkKnightLi 🙏 🔧 23:58, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

May 2020Edit

Latinum, latinumEdit

The noun sections defining this as a neuter 2nd declension noun for "the Latin language": seems like one should probably be given as an {{altcaps}} of the other, although one has a context label the other doesn't and one claims to have a plural. - -sche (discuss) 07:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Merged onto Latinum. The template still automatically says the capitalized form is singular-only while the lowercase lists a plural. - -sche (discuss) 01:17, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Pinging two recently-active Latin speakers, @Brutal Russian, GianWiki: does the noun mentioned above have a plural (in which case it should be made to display somehow on the capitalized entry), or not (in which case it should be suppressed on the lowercase entry and the forms, if spurious, should be deleted)? - -sche (discuss) 01:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
@-sche No, it can't have a plural. The noun is properly either an abstract noun meaning "the effect or state of being Latin", or a concrete noun meaning "a Latin thing", and the fact that it refers to the language is idiomatic more than anything else, and in the non-peculiarly medieval language can only be used in prepositional phrases or as part of the compound predicate - the second usage example illustrates the latter. There are some examples of prepositionless oblique cases in DMLBS, but the hearer simply wouldn't know which "being Latin" you meant if you made it the subject of a sentence. If you make it a plural, it stops being abstract and starts being a concrete referrence to writings, or, in Medieval Latin, words (for those folks seemingly a metaphysical concept). I'm not sure how to capture all of this, to be honest. Brutal Russian (talk) 07:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
@-sche If the term is used to indicate the Latin language, I'd say there's no plural. — GianWiki (talk) 10:08, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Latīnitās just like Latinity and Englishes does have a plural - languages are countable. Brutal Russian (talk) 10:13, 12 May 2020 (UTC)


This is a Brazilian Sign Language word. The page title does not use the correct Appendix:Sign language entry names. I have already tried speedy-deleting it, and RFV'ing it isn't an option. Can someone please move this to the correct page name? --Numberguy6 (talk) 16:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. This page uses a real and attested spelling. The spelling uses the Sistema de Notação em Palavras orthography, which is the most widespread orthographical system in scholarly works on Brazilian Sign Language.
This sign is also attested as CAVALO^LISTRAS, CAVALO^LISTRAS-PELO-CORPO (both using the same orthographical system) and with the SignWriting spelling if anyone is interested in adding those. I could not attest it as written with the ELiS system.
I don't think we should use a clunky spelling that is likely not known -- let alone used -- by anyone who writes in Libras in lieu of an existing spelling. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Background: historically, Libras was transcribed by translating the meaning of any signed text to Portuguese and writing it down in standard Portuguese (which has many grammatical markers that Libras lacks). As understanding of the linguistic nature of sign languages grew, it became obvious that such a practice was wholly inadequate. So instead, a system whereby Portuguese spellings where used to represent individual signs without any inserted grammatical features (in theory -- in practice the Portuguese spelling used was often marked for gender, for example).
In the late 90s this practice was standardised into the Sistema de Notação em Palavras (also known by other names). This system extirpates all linguistic features of Portuguese from written Libras and has a one-to-one representation of written word to sign. In practice, though, its precepts are not always followed consistently.
Beginning in the early 2000s, there has been a great effort to promote the use of SignWriting for Libras. SignWriting is not common in scholarly works, but it is used in Capovilla's Libras dictionary. As such, we could easily attest and add Libras words in SignWriting(but not to the exclusion of other spellings IMO).
Many other systems have been proposed for Libras. The only one that has gained any appreciable amount of traction is Escrita de Língua de Sinais (ELiS). Its usage doesn't come close to that of Sistema de Transcrição em Palavras or SignWriting, and a couple of characters don't have obvious Unicode equivalents, but I think we should add spellings attested in ELiS as well. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
For the LIBRAS entries, it can still show the LIBRAS-specific spelling. For example, on the page Corna@Nose-Corna@SideChesthigh Corna@RadialHand-Corna@CenterChesthigh, there is something on the head that says "ASL Gloss: IRONIC". That is the ASL equivalent of the LIBRAS spelling. --Numberguy6 (talk) 02:31, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Also, even if you don't like the current sign language notation system, we at least need one that covers all sign languages. This one is designed for LIBRAS-exclusive use. SignWriting won't work because it is two-dimensional instead of one-dimensional. --Numberguy6 (talk) 02:33, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
We do? Why do you think that? Other languages seem to be doing fine with existing spellings, even those with really bad orthographies like English. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Spoken languages all have a writing system that is a fundamental, inherent part of the language. Sign languages don't have this, so you can't compare sign and spoken languages in this manner. --Numberguy6 (talk) 19:59, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
That is not true in the slightest. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:28, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
There are languages that started the 20th century normally written in Arabic, had Latin alphabets under Lenin, had Cyrillic alphabets under later Soviet rule, and now have totally new Latin alphabets. Beside the Latin script, English is the sole language for the Shavian and Deseret scripts, is frequently written in Braille, and sometimes in runes and Tengwar.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
Even if a spoken language has multiple valid scripts, it is still used in writing; sign language is never used in writing, except for transcription. Also, even if your system is officially recognized, it could easily have words that use the exact same character sequence as spoken-language words, while my system doesn't. That is why I think that your system is better for the Appendix namespace, so that we don't have the sign-language-and-spoken-language-having-the-same-sequence-of-characters-when-they-represent-different-things conflict. But there's a problem with that, too: all sign languages would have to be moved to the Appendix namespace for consistency, but not all sign languages have official transliteration systems like this. --Numberguy6 (talk) 23:58, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Many spoken languages are rarely used in writing, especially not if you distinguish "transcription". I might go so far as to say that a majority of languages have no tradition of writing. Sign languages like ASL, from rich educated countries, might be more frequently use in writing than the average language, for example these SignWriting examples. There's no rule that says that entries for different things conflict; mal has entries for a bunch of languages, with many many unrelated words in that entry, from martens to painting to surfboards to mountains to cattle.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:50, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Your example with the world "mal" does not work because, with every language, you can deduce some information from the spelling of the word. Even though you can't deduce its meaning, you can deduce the pronunciation (if you are familiar with the language's phonology). There might be some margin of error; for example, in English, the word "mal" might be pronounced /mɑːl/, /mɒl/, or /mæl/ (if you didn't know the pronunciation), but you know that it isn't pronounced /ɜɹɡ/. However, with your sign language notation system, you can't deduce any information about handshape/movement from the title alone.
Also also, if you want to change WT's sign language notation policy, you should start a vote. --Numberguy6 (talk) 02:40, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
As an aside, I don't believe it was subject to a vote in the first place, meaning that it's not policy and consensus, rather than a vote, should be sufficient to revise it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:39, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
That appendix page is a product of its time. Its drafters needed an easy way to document signs which were only used (as opposed to mentioned) in video. The exemptions for Limited Documentation Languages have rendered its main rationale moot, and while it may be useful for certain sign languages, I don’t believe there is any reason to ban existing sign language orthographies in favour of it. Especially not Libras which has well established writing systems as I have explained above.
If the Libras editing community (currently consisting of me alone, unfortunately) feels it is necessary to use primarily a phonemic system rather than a logographic one, I strongly believe either of the existing systems (i.e. ELiS or Signwriting) should be picked rather than the one from the appendix. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Actually, it was voted on. See Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-08/Wiktionary:About sign languages --Numberguy6 (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
If you want to use your preferred notation system, then it might be better in the Appendix namespace as opposed to the Main namespace, along with Appendix:Gestures and most constructed languages. This way, we wouldn't have to worry about notation systems being inconsistent between sign languages. However, I haven't changed my mind on which method I prefer. --Numberguy6 (talk) 22:55, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
It's a real attested spelling. I don't see any reason to change it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
I think the "CAVALO^LISTRA" spelling should be included on the page as the human-readable "LIBRAS gloss", just like ASL pages have the human-readable "ASL gloss" included. However, I don't think that "CAVALO^LISTRA" should be the page title, unless LIBRAS (and all other sign languages) are moved to the Appendix namespace instead of the Main namespace. --Numberguy6 (talk) 22:06, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I would like to know what your ideal transcription system would look like. Remember that it must cover all sign languages. --Numberguy6 (talk) 00:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

That's your issue, not mine. I'm here to record writing as it is used, not try and invent some transcription system that covers all sign languages. Actual writing systems at their best record details needed to understand the language and elide details that are unnecessary, even if they would be key in some other language.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:50, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Basically ^this^. We don't enter Russian words and Chinese words and Arabic words and French words all in the same script, we enter them in the different scripts they're attested in. If this is a notation which is actually used for this sign language, and the Appendix:Sign language entry names (hereafter: SLEN) notation is not used for this language, or is used much less often, then I don't see why we would try to move this to the SLEN notation. Trying to conform or contort all sign languages to one notation system seems inadvisable. (Now, whether sign language entries in general should be in the main namespace, and how searchable and / or findable they are? Well, that's a separate problem.) - -sche (discuss) 01:34, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Having some sign languages in the mainspace, but not others, would be extremely confusing and complicated. --Numberguy6 (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Entry titles for spoken languages give the spelling of the word, but not the meaning; this is the same with SLEN, as it records the same thing as spoken language (handshape, movement, etc.) as opposed to meaning. Your system records the sign's meaning in the title, but not the sign's handshape, etc., which makes it inconsistent with the rest of WT. And even this gives too much credence to your system, as it may give an indication of the meaning, but the unambiguous gloss must still be looked up in the entry itself. --Numberguy6 (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Once again "I'm here to record writing as it is used, not try and invent some transcription system that covers all sign languages." If there's writing that includes "CAVALO^LISTRA", then we should record it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:48, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree that the transcription in your system should be noted on the page. The issue is whether or not the title of the page should use it, and there can only be one title. --Numberguy6 (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Cf. color and color, and boja#Serbo-Croatian and боја#Serbo-Croatian.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I might actually be okay with having something at the page title with your system, but it wouldn't be the actual entry; instead, it would be equivalent to a romanization of Japanese. It would be in Category:Brazilian Sign Language non-lemma forms, and it would point to the SLEN transcription of the sign. See a romanization entry (e.g. ryojin) to see what I am talking about. --Numberguy6 (talk) 16:21, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Another way to think about it would be: imagine that I am reading a passage, and I come across a word that I don't know the meaning of. All I have to do is search for that word in WT to find the meaning; it is very simple. Now imagine that I am watching a video of someone using sign language, and I see a sign that I don't know the meaning of. Under SLEN, all I have to do is transcribe the sign (very easy for people with sign language experience), and look it up. But with your system, I have to search through every word in WT, and just hope that I find the one that matches the given handshape. --Numberguy6 (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Those are two different situations; you can watch a video of either spoken or signed language. Imagine that you are watching a video of someone speaking, and you hear a word. Some languages you might be able to look it up, but others not so much, with Chinese at one extreme. And again, IMO, we should record what is, not worry about the best script. Transcriptions in easier/better scripts are options, like Japanese romanji or Chinese pinyin, but the primary script should be the one actually primarily used.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:48, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm just going to put this up front: I oppose using Sutton SignWriting for any reason due to its multi-dimensionality making it unsuitable for one-dimensional entry titles. --Numberguy6 (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I think that a good reference would be Talk:A@Side-PalmForward Upanddown#RFV discussion: March–April 2020. --Numberguy6 (talk) 05:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Contrary to what User:Metaknowledge said, the SLEN policy was voted on. See Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-08/Wiktionary:About sign languages. This means that it can't be changed without a vote. --Numberguy6 (talk) 23:21, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

I have come up with a compromise solution. SLEN would still be the main transcription system, but transcription systems equivalent to Sistema de Transcrição em Palavras would be equivalent to romanizations. This means that they would get an entry in the mainspace, but would be considered a non-lemma form. --Numberguy6 (talk) 16:33, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

  • OK, who wants to draft a vote on this? What would the basic question be, something like "what system should be used to transcribe sign languages?" where at least two of the options would be "use the current Appendix / SLEN notation for all sign languages" and "for each sign language, use the system that is most commonly used to transcribe it, or another system as agreed upon by the community of editors, with soft or hard redirects from other major transcription systems [that are used for it]"...? - -sche (discuss) 18:39, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
    @Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, Numberguy6, Metaknowledge I took a stab at drafting Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2020-05/Sign language entry names. Please revise the wording as necessary. - -sche (discuss) 23:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

hold one's breathEdit

This was tagged by Theo.phonchana (talkcontribs) but not listed here. – Jberkel 20:55, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Why? The positive form allows the literal expression to appear, which makes the derivation of the idiom clear to a language learner. DCDuring (talk) 00:04, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

state's evidenceEdit

to turn state's evidence.

Most use of state's evidence is clearly of state + 's + evidence. I haven't found any use that is suggestive of a restriction to a witness's testimony, except with the use of turn. Also compare turn state's evidence at OneLook Dictionary Search with state's evidence at OneLook Dictionary Search. DCDuring (talk) 14:16, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

in grado diEdit

Should be moved to in grado, since sentences like "sei in grado?" ("are you up to it/are you able?") are completely possible. In other words, the "di" at the end is not strictly necessary. Imetsia (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

@Imetsia: Done. If you want to add one, I'd appreciate an example with just in grado. Ultimateria (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

play the victim card, play the race card, play the gender cardEdit

I wonder if these all ought to be merged into some entry akin to "play the ____ card" or something. There appear to be other words substituted aside from victim, race, and gender. Tharthan (talk) 22:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

I lament that our way of handling snowclones is not optimal, banishing them to appendix-space, such that the choices here amount to 'have these multiple similar entries in the mainspace where users find them' or 'banish them to a tidy but less-findable appendix'. However, I see that we have a sense at card for this (although the definition could use some work), and between putting a link there and redirects from these entries, I suppose we could get by with migrating these to the snowclone appendix. Centralizing them does seem sensible since there are so many. ("Play the religion card" also exists.) - -sche (discuss) 23:56, 21 May 2020 (UTC)


to fendë.

As spotted by SKA-KSI, the word is actually spelt fendë. Therefore its contents should be moved to a new page fendë. It's already been altered so that the templates use fendë instead of fëndë. ArbDardh (talk) 17:04, 22 May 2020 (UTC)ArbDardh

Go ahead; anyone can move a page. You only need an admin to do it if you want to delete the original page rather than keeping it as a redirect. —Mahāgaja · talk 08:15, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

you're onEdit

I don't think this is a special phrase with "you're", it sounds like a phrasal verb be on. They want a fight? They're on! She issued a challenge, so she's on!. You can also use it in reference to the fight itself, e.g. the fight is on. 18:51, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Just noting to compare good on you→good on someone above. — 02:46, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
You're on might be considered distinct because it is usually a speech act, indicating acceptance of a bet or dare. DCDuring (talk) 17:34, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

PIE *h₃nobʰilos → *h₃nóbʰl̥Edit

The given reconstruction *h₃nobʰilos makes no sense phonetically nor morphologically. It seems to be an attempt to reconcile the original stem in *-l- with a thematic form given that the descendants are all thematized. Rather, the "descendants", i.e. derivatives, listed point to an original (neuter) l-stem noun *h₃nóbʰl̥, though this original morphological form is not preserved in any of its attested reflexes (c.f. the situation with *dʰógʷʰr̥ under *dʰegʷʰ-). For reference, Beekes 2010:1080 notes that it was an “originally athematic l-stem”; Kroonen 2013:380 gives Germanic *nablan- (= *nabəlan-) as deriving from *h₃mbʰ-l̥- (and in fact throughout the book refers to *nablan- as the typical example of a formation in *-l-); Matasović 2009:33 gives the Celtic form *ambliyon- (attested only in Old Irish) as deriving from *h₃nobʰ-li-; De Vaan 2008:639 gives Latin umbilīcus as from Italic *omb-(e/o)l- from IE *h₃nbʰ-(e/o)l- and explains, exactly as I would have, that:

“Latin umbilīcus has a complex suffix, which in theory can be explained in several ways. In view of the l-suffixes in Celtic, Greek and Gm., it seems likely that umbilīcus too contains an original l-stem. This was then thematized to *-(e)lo-, after which the suffix *-īko- was added.”

The suffix *-l- has been explained as either a sort of diminutive noun-deriver or as a variant of *-r-, but regardless of its function it is securely reconstructible. Like nouns in *-r-, *-n- or *-u-, the original morphology of l-stems is often obscured by subsequent thematization as per de Vaan's description. Compare the derivatives of the phonetically similar *h₃nógʰl̥ (given as acrostatic) as on the page *h₃nṓgʰs (which for some reason covers the root *h₃negʰ- in general), of which the only morphologically intact ones appear to be in Iranian; the "descendants" listed at *h₁óngʷl̥; and the various descendants and derivatives at *sóh₂wl̥.

It's evident from earlier stages of this page that it was originally used as a cover entry for all derivatives of the root *h₃nebʰ- without regard for formalism. (It was created in 2011, five years before the page *h₃nebʰ- even existed. Until the present time the page had been sorely neglected and several clearly non-descended forms were left there. The page's creator has been known for questionable PIE reconstructions, though in fairness Wiktionary's standards for formal reconstruction nine years ago were not what they are today.) Though not as important, my point here is that this page should never have existed with this title in the first place, as its original purpose was to be virtually synonymous with the root *h₃nebʰ-, and it has managed to continue to overlap with it even after the page for the root has been created.

Finally I wish to remark that this is related to the broader issue of inconsistency in the organization of descendants and derived terms on entries for proto-languages, especially PIE, in the case (1) where varying derivations from a common root are incorrectly listed as descended or derived from the same word, or the more general case (2) in which derived terms are listed as descendants, without any indication of the derivation(s) that took place between the proto-language and its daughter stage(s). But fortunately they are rarely as obviously problematic as the page in question; others tend to be more subtle, and the line between "descended" and "derived" is not always made clear—not to say that this distinction was ever defined precisely, nor that the derivational chronology is always known. — 02:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

a causa diEdit

Should be moved to a causa. The di is not strictly necessary for this locution, because constructions like "a causa sua" ("because of him") are completely possible (and very common). Imetsia (talk) 15:58, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

On second thought, I withdraw this request for moving the page. There are many Italian entries (as well as many English ones) that attach the di (or, in the case of English, "of") even when not strictly necessary. (This occurs in cases, like this one, where one could use a possessive pronoun instead). Many Italian dictionaries do the same, so there's no need to move this entry. Imetsia (talk) 00:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
@Imetsia: Yes, I would keep this as is, though not for the same reason. In French, I always lemmatize such cases with the preposition de, even though when the object of the preposition is a personal pronoun, the prepositional phrase de + pronoun automatically switches to a possessive determiner: "à l'intention de quelqu'un" becomes "à mon intention" if that quelqu'un is moi. To me, the preposition de is "absorbed" in the possessive determiner mon, but it's still there in a way: both the possessive determiner and the prepositional phrase introduced by de function as genitives.
However, I wonder why this doesn't always happen: "à cause de moi" doesn't become "à ma cause". PUC – 10:59, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

all'infuori diEdit

Should be moved to all'infuori ("outwards"). The second sense could then have a "(with di)" label and keep the current meaning. Imetsia (talk) 20:39, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

  Done Ultimateria (talk) 04:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Merge Category:Terms derived from the shape of letters by language and Category:Terms making reference to character shapes by languageEdit

See Category talk:Terms making reference to character shapes by language. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 01:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

See also #Reconcile Category:#### terms derived from the shape of letters and Category:#### terms making reference to character shapes. J3133 (talk) 08:34, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


This entry needs to be split into two separate entries. The original maajii- can remain as a preverb, but what here falls under the Verb headword should be moved to the maad- namespace. I can do the editing and necessary clean-up, but i need help making sure the history isn't lost. SteveGat (talk) 18:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


This lemma does not fit the criteria for inclusion. It is two morphemes that often appear together (-and and -ge), but each of which can appear in many other contexts. I have edited what little was there to fit under the final (morpheme) -and. It just needs to be merged into -and to save the history. SteveGat (talk) 19:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)