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A suggestion about Latvian + potential LV pronunciation templateEdit

Hi, firstly I'd like to thank you for your work on Latvian entries, esp. the etymology parts have proven to be very useful on several occasions, but I also noticed that you write the "pseudo-digraph" ⟨šķ⟩ as [ʃc] (which would exactly correspond to the combination of ⟨š⟩ and ⟨ķ⟩) but in Latvian it is realized as [ʃtʃ] or respelling with LV letters the pronunciation is actually ⟨šč⟩. On the other hand I don't think it is needed to necessarily "correct" IPA for entries already done since, I'm sure, there are people bound to actually insist on "šķ" being pronounced as [ʃc], since Latvian linguists make a huge deal of the fact of how closely LV orthography corresponds to actual pronunciation, I wouldn't be surprised if such a trend emerged. Plus Latvian Russians skip it altogether - in their accent it's [ʃk] because they tend to realize ⟨ķ⟩ as [k] and not [c] (although it's quite similar to their "softened" [tʲ], i.e., Russian [t] before front vowels) also realizing "šķ" as "šk" although they wouldn't have any problems pronouncing, e.g., the name of the city of Szczecin, perhaps it has to do with the fact that ⟨Щ⟩ (šč) and ⟨Ш⟩ (š) have been "syncretized" in Russian (both pronounced more or less as "š,") or perhaps some political or psychological reasons, but that would be pure speculation on my part :D Idk. Anyways my point is that it's not necessarily needed to correct past entries with [ʃc] as IPA for ⟨šķ⟩.

Pronunciation template

On an unrelated note I think I've seen someone (maybe you?) asking LV editors whether they could provide some pronunciation audio files, which, I have to admit is quite the endeavor to undertake, and in this regard I have been quite impressed with the text-to-speech synthesizer Google Translate has for Latvian. It has its shortfalls, I guess it is taking full advantage of the Latvian "near 100% phonetic" writing system, this, however also means that it is not able to distinguish between the two values of ⟨e⟩ ([ɛ] and [æ]) and has a wonky intonation but that could be written off as a side-effect of the Stephen Hawking-like synthesizer voice and pronouncing all e's as [ɛ] could be written off as Eastern Latvian accent (not "optimal" but still acceptable), besides that it actually does a great job!

I read somewhere that the text-to-speech option is actually based on some open source software, but I'm not sure, I would probably need to email Google and I doubt the answer would be positive although saving files from it would be very easy, I have some type of a "Download Helper" extension installed on my Firefox installation and as soon as I click the speakerphone icon in Google Translate it actually offers to download the file that the synthesizer has made for the Latvian text in the input box. But I'm thinking of a template that opens the mpeg in a new tab (or window) just feeding in the parameters (the pagename of the entry on Wiktionary) to Google Translate and I actually found the URL structure (the parameters) where you can feed in Latvian text and the Google synthesizer will give an mpeg file of synthesized voice - playable in most browsers (at least Chrome and Firefox).

This is the URL to Google Translate page itself with a pretty good pronunciation of šķīstā ieņemšana ("Immaculate Conception.") I did use a "dirty" fix, adding periods after every word (Šķīstā. Ieņemšana.) because the synthesizer barely paused between the words but considering Wiktionary usually has 1-word entries that's irrelevant, I think.

And here's URL to the mpeg file itself:

It can also be written directly with all the diacriticized letters (Chrome and Firefox will then convert them to the percent sign entities not sure 'bout other browsers) like this:Šķīstā.%20Ieņemšana.&tl=lv&total=1&idx=0&textlen=18&prev=input

I also tried plugging in text that I wrote myself and it worked flawlessly, here's the first sentence of the universal declaration of human rights:ības%20uz%20dzīvību,%20brīvību%20un%20personas%20neaizskaramību.&tl=lv&total=1&idx=0&textlen=18&prev=input

OK, as can be seen from the 2 examples above wiki markup does not support spaces in URLs (and Idk what's the workaround to this) so I replaced all spaces with %20 and the diacriticized letters still work flawlessly, but since 99% of entries are single words this is of little concern, imo.

Also in the last example the synthesizer (besides the wonky intonation) pronounced personas as IPA(key): /ˈpɛrsoːnas/ not IPA(key): /ˈpærsoːnas/, i.e., with "narrow e" instead of "wide e" as it should be in Standard Latvian but that is still acceptable and could be written off as a slight "Eastern Latvian accent."

In conclusion

I will try to make a template (for entries missing audio files) redirecting anyone to a Google Translate synthesizer version.

I've somewhat fallen out of loop with the advanced substitution functions in wiki templates (for example to substitute spaces with "%20") but a preliminary version could be made for one word entries just feeding in the PAGENAME parameter and later could be updated...

Also, I'm not sure, but I assume it should be OK to link to an external source for pronunciation? At least on Wikipedia it would be perfectly OK to link inline to a non-free image, etc. Worst case scenario it would actually be worth it to ask Google whether or not it's open source and in the unlikely event that that licence is, indeed, compatible with WikiMedia it takes like 2 seconds to download those mpeg files (using any "Youtube downloader" extension).

OK, I just made a template {{synth-lv-pron}} and it works with single word entries without providing any additional parameters (example: šķīsts#Pronunciation.) It did not however work with an entry with a phrase with several words with spaces between the words, I guess some substitution would be needed to substitute spaces with "%20"... Neitrāls vārds (talk) 18:01, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Sveiks, Neitrāls vārds! (I assume you are a native speaker of Latvian?). Thanks for the interest and support! I see you are very interest in phonetic matters -- thanks for the tip on the pronunciation of šķ, by the way. (Do you have a reference for it? I know there is some book on Latvian phonetics and phonology that I haven't been able to put my hands on... maybe you have it or know the reference?) From hearing Latvian videos (newscasts at or at, I had the impression that šķ, as in, e.g., man šķiet... sounded almost like Russian щ; but then again, I'm not a native speaker, and my ears may not be hearing it accurately enough.
As for the synthetic pronunciation, I am a little doubtful about it. As you pointed out, it has the "Stephen-Hawking-ness" that reminds me of the Big Bang Theory (Howard imitating Stephen Hawking), and makes it difficult to actually "see" the pronunciation. I clicked on your examples, and I am skeptical that they would be easy to understand for the newcomer who is trying to hear how words are pronounced... At any rate, if you want to know more about the legal aspects, and also have the opinion of other people, why not post your suggestion (and a link to your files and the synth-pron template) in the community portal (say, the Beer Parlor, or maybe the Grease Pit)? Others who know more than I do (which is very little...) about the legal intricacies of Google can tell you what they think.
(But, in passing, if you're a native speaker, why not upload a few pronunciations yourself? There's no need to "do all the words"; you can just select a few every now and then, the ones you like, record yourself pronouncing them, and upload the files to commons...)
Also, if you're interested in Wiktionary and the Latvian coverage here, maybe we could work together to improve things? I'm not Latvian (I'm just trying to learn the language), and I certainly have doubts and difficulties (e.g., with the translations of some of the sentence examples in many entries) which you could certainly clarify. What do you think? --Pereru (talk) 18:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
In fact, Neitrāls vārds, I'm also curious about the legal and/or local ramifications of the question of using Google Translate speech synthesis. I think I will myself raise the question in the Beer Parlor (here) to see what the others think. --Pereru (talk) 18:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
First off, Bom dia! (ou boa noite, nao sou seguro!) and second the member Vahag is definitely not amused by my suggestion to add (external) synthetic pronunciations judging by (his/her?) their reply in the beer parlor (and also a message on my talk page), lol! I do, however, think that it is pretty good. I added it to visšķīstākais#Pronunciation and the robot does a pretty good job (I'm not even sure if I wrote the IPA correct myself (should I write the diphthong ⟨ai⟩ as [ai] or [aj]??) but the synthetic pronunciation is actually spot-on!) I kind of suspect that it could be a pretty controversial suggestion to rely on a third party service in a template for a WikiMedia project and that if you bring it up it might not be received too well... And, yep, I am a native speaker of Latvian, this also means that Latvian doesn't really interest me that much (I mean, I already know it through and through, lol!) I do however look up Latvian entries sometimes (esp. for the etymologies.) Btw, the ones I've seen created by you (I assume) are near perfect, I think there was one missing macron in a sentence for the entry for stulbs. I didn't correct it, but I could go back and do it. Anyways from a native speaker's perspective the Google synthesizer (for Latvian) is actually pretty good... I actually tried a sentence in Portuguese (I can understand some Portuguese if spoken with Brazilian accent) and it actually sounds pretty good, aka, I can actually understand what the robot is saying (she does speak Brazilian though, I'm pretty sure.) Here it is: O dogma diz que, desde o primeiro instante de sua existência, a Virgem Maria foi preservada por Deus I think the only thing that's off is the word "diz" it should be IPA(key): /dis/ or IPA(key): /diʃ/ not IPA(key): /d͡ʒiʃ/ as she pronounced it but I'm not sure... Neitrāls vārds (talk) 23:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Ora essa! :-) Você gosta de português? My attitude to Portuguese is similar to yours on Latvian: I already know it through and through, so it doesn't interest me so much (I've occasionally contributed to Portuguese entries here, and every now and then I add a translation to an English term, but not much else); other than that, I concentrate on Latvian, which to me is like exploring a different planet, full of strange alien life forms (those intonations, my god! I even made a Category:Latvian minimal pairs for intonation to keep track of words that differ only in intonation...). My accent is Brazilian, and, even though I can understand continental (European) Portuguese, it always sounds funny to my ear, as if they were children speaking... but that's just a personal impression, I'm sure they think we Brazilians talk funny. (As for "diz", the female voice is actually right for the pronunciation of Rio de Janeiro -- and basically all of the Center and South of Brazil: São Paulo, Curitiba, etc. --; it should indeed be "IPA(key): /d͡ʒiʃ/" or "IPA(key): /d͡ʒis/", this is the most widespread pronunciation; for those guys, every "di" -- say, "dinheiro", "diretor", etc. -- is a /d͡ʒʃ/. By coincidence, I happen to be from Recife in the Northeast of Brazil, where the local pronunciation is indeed not /d͡ʒis/, but /dis/; but this marks me as a "Nordestino", which, in Brazil, suggests that I should be an uneducated construction worker born in some little farm... /d͡ʒis/ is more "prestigious". Not that I like it, if you ask me /dis/ is prettier, but I'm not from Rio de Janeiro or São Paulo, so I don't decide questions of "national prestige"...)
Thanks for the appreciation; I try really hard not to make mistakes. (If you can tell me where the missing macron is in stulbs, I'll correct it...). Of course, sometimes I have doubts. Would you mind if every now and then I asked you a question about a translation or about some specific word on your talk page?
As for the synthetic pronunciation... the Portuguese one is way better than the Latvian one, to my ears. I'm not so much against it; if you feel like adding this template to Latvian entries, be my guest. (I think there should be some standard presentation form though, like "speech synthesized pronunciation" or something shorter.) But I don't think they'll be very useful to non-Latvians. Being a native speaker, perhaps you're so used to Latvian pronunciation that you can understand the synthesizer's voice without problems; but, to someone who hasn't got much experience with it, I'm not sure it is a big help. As a non-Latvian, I must say I don't feel like imitating that Stephen-Hawking-esque voice. Maybe later, if they manage to have something as good as the Portuguese female voice, that would be better.
Are you learning Portuguese, and other languages? It sounds like you may be a "language geek", much like myself... Boa sorte pra você! --Pereru (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I guess you could say I'm a language geek "lite" :) Portuguese, coincidentally, has been my only true "hobby language" - that I learned just because I wanted to. Picked up a book of Portuguese in 30 days and I think I went through it in like a week. Then read some Vejas and some others were ISTOÉ, to think of it, this was actually before I even got my first computer - early 2000s. I did have somewhat decent Spanish beforehand though. Yeah, but this also means I have literally zero knowledge of the actual language as spoken by actual people. Like greetings, for example, the only thing I know is "Oi!" Telenovelas did prove to be pretty useful in getting at least some understanding of pronunciation and thankfully they were all Brazilian so you could actually understand something. (Hopefully no Portuguese take offense, lol!) And you're right about "diz" for example Curitiba would be [kuri't͡ʃiba] so the same would probably be true for "diz." After having learned Italian and using it quite a lot (or should I say trying to use it at first) while living in Italy my Iberian language abilities dropped like a rock though, whenever I would open my mouth and make a conscious effort of trying to speak Sp. or Port. it's maybe 2 words and then I've reverted back to Italian without even realizing it. On the other hand if I would ever end up in an area speaking +/- standard br-pt I would have a pretty solid foundation...

And, yeah, you can def ask me questions if need be, I tend to use (or edit) wikis in "spells," i.e., disappearing for weeks (or even months) at a time but if I'm here - definitely. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 01:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It is a little funny for me to think that Veja and Istoé can find their way to Latvia... Maybe the idea of a Latvian guy interested in learning Portuguese is as weird as that of a Brazilian guy trying to learn Latvian! (My history with Latvian is similar, by the way. I also one say simply picked up a book about two years ago, was charmed by all the macrons -- I love diacritics and accent marks -- and decided to just learn it (previously I had been studying Russian, which was actually more help than I had expected). I actually never managed to get a magazine or newspaper in Latvian, but with all those things available on the internet, this is not such a problem. (Not that I wouldn't like to be able to by Ir or even Rīgas laiks here in the Netherlands, but...). I also became interested in the sociolinguistic situation in Latvia (so many Russian speaking people make up for quite interesting social dynamics; and since I was learning Russian and am now learning Latvian, I can see both sides of the issue). It's funny how Latvia is full of interesting problems -- more than the usual share for a country with only 1.5 million people...
Let me know if I can help you with Portuguese in any way, in case you're still cultivating this hobby. (Se você quiser falar/escrever português aqui, esteja à vontade. Como dizem em espanhol, mi casa, su casa...)
Here is one little question, if I may. There seem to be three more or less equivalent Latvian translations for "lively", "vibrant" (= full of life, quick, agile, etc.): mundrs, možs and žirgts, perhaps also spirgts. Do you feel differences between them, or are they (near-)perfect synonyms? What differences, if any? I've been translating all of them more or less consistenly as "lively", as you can see in the example sentences for these words, but maybe I should translate each with a different English word. My "Latviešu-Angļu Vārdnīca" has mundrs = "lively, spry, sprightly, brisk", možs = "alert, lively", žirgts = "brisk, lively, sprightly, vivacious", and spirgts = "brisk, lively, sprightly; fresh". Except for the "fresh" meaning in spirgts, they all seem pretty similar to me, but I don't know for sure... What do you think? --Pereru (talk) 01:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
I guess, those do sound like near synonyms. The only possible distinction I could make would be whether they apply to being awake more in a "bodily sense," like, say after a cold shower (yuck!) or being awake/focused in more of a mental sense (say, like after two large cups of coffee.) And both these meanings +/- apply to all of them, except, maybe spirgts which sounds as if the person could be wet (hence might have taken a cold shower, lol. And maybe that's where the "fresh" definition comes from...?) All in all, the 4 of them - near synonyms. I would say "awake" would be a more fitting general translation than "lively" but that's just an afterthought. A published dictionary would probably take precedence over my POV. I probably shouldn't even get started on dictionaries but none of the dictionary makers have thought to delegate, for example, kāpnes and trepes each to a specific meaning like English "stairs" and "ladder" do, for example. Tēzaurs gives the same definition for both of them which I was actually quite pissed off about, lol. I hoped that trepes would mean specifically "ladder," alas - tough luck! Neitrāls vārds (talk) 00:41, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Interesting... This suggests to me that there is quite a lot of research still to be done on the meanings of synonyms in Latvian. (One of the interesting aspects of this language is exactly how much there still is to be done on it...) --Pereru (talk) 00:45, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Adding topics to pagesEdit

There is a little "+" in a tab at the top of discussion pages for adding new topics. Adding a new topic without using that tag makes it look as if you are contributing to the preceding topic, which can be misleading and time-wasting for those interested in the preceding topic and less so in yours. DCDuring TALK 19:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

OK. --Pereru (talk) 19:55, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Thanks and keep up the good work. DCDuring TALK 20:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
No problem. (I actually didn't know that there was a difference between using the little "+" and simply editing the preceding topic. How can you tell? Is it only because of the Recent Changes page, or is there some other means?) --Pereru (talk) 20:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


Dê uma olhada: [1]. — Ungoliant (Falai) 11:43, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Não sei... me parece que o falante em questão só está reagindo ao fato de que velns é o termo mais "popular", por isso frequentemente ocorre em expressões não tão profundamente "más" ou "diabólicas"... Veja-se o português "diabo", que ocorre em expressões como "pobre diabo" ou "que diabo é isso", quando comparado com "satã", que é mais "teologicamente mal". Não creio que seja necessaria nenhuma mudança importante, talvez só uma "Usage note"... vou acrescentar uma mencionando que velns é mais "popular" e "coloquial"; você acha que basta? --Pereru (talk) 11:54, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Sendo esse o caso, acho que não precisa de modificação. — Ungoliant (Falai) 11:58, 4 November 2013 (UTC)


Hi, I've begun adding inflected forms (see Special:Contributions/NadandoBot). I'll try to catch any errors on this first round, but let me know if I miss something. DTLHS (talk) 23:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

And do you mind that the bot edits User:Pereru/Adjective forms / User talk:Pereru/Adjective forms when it's done? It makes it easy to keep track of progress. DTLHS (talk) 23:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
A few quick looks around suggest that everything is OK, DTLHS. Thanks for the help! It's fine to edit those pages, but, if I may hazard a suggestion, how about listing only the basic form of the adjectives on User talk:Pereru/Adjective forms, i.e., only spējīgs and izdarīgs, not all the other forms, so that the page doesn't quickly become clogged with links?...
I'm adding more adjectives to User:Pereru/Adjective forms, so you can upload them. That's all I have ready for now; I should have more at some point next week (participles, this time). When they're ready, I'll leave a note in your talk page. --Pereru (talk) 00:18, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, yes I won't add all the links to the log in the future. DTLHS (talk) 00:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I've just added the adjectives. I note that, in at least one case (mobils), some forms are homophonous with words from other languages that already exist here (mobila, mobili, mobilus). What will your bot do in these cases -- will it ignore them, or will it add a Latvian section? --Pereru (talk) 00:23, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
It should add the Latvian section to the page in the correct order (if I did everything right). DTLHS (talk) 00:24, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Glad to hear! Another small question: I try to find out whether there are near-homographs that can be mentioned with the {{also}} template (e.g., mobilitate and mobilitāte). Will your bot also find such words (and add or expand an {{also}} template with the appropriate forms), or do I have to do this manually after the forms are uploaded? --Pereru (talk) 00:26, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately that's not really feasible. It would have to know which characters were considered equivalent as well as every page on the wiki- not something I'm up for now. DTLHS (talk) 00:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
That's OK. I have to have a look at every adjective anyway, to add translations to sublemmas; I'll add {{also}} manually when necessary. --Pereru (talk) 00:31, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Passive participles for intransitive verbsEdit

Hi, I wrote a detailed reply on būts on my talk page. I also just peeked in recent changes and saw some other intransitive passive participles. And, Idk how to put it, they could be problematic. I googled nekustēts and it doesn't have a single match in Google's index. Basically they (the intr. pass. part.) are very rarely used and would only be used in 3rd pers. only with perfect (ir instead of tiek) and, e.g., with kustēts this would mean the ir would take the negation = nav kustēts (rare but acceptable, 7 results on Google.) Basically they are only used for this one "poetic" construction and it's better to tread with caution. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 12:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

WT:RFM#Merge Buryat, Mari languagesEdit

I seem to remember you saying you had an interest in Mari; I think this discussion would be of interest to you. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

IPA for LatvianEdit

Tones and IPA in LatvianEdit

I would like to touch on the subject about IPA. Since we use IPA for transcribing pronunciation of the Latvian words, it seems to me a bit wrong to use although traditional for Latvian linguistics/phonology marks:

IPA meaning Traditional
ã Nasalized vowel Level tone, stieptā intonācija
(high pitch throughout the syllable)
à Low pitch throughout the syllable Falling tone, krītošā intonācija
â Generic fall Broken tone, lauztā intonācija

So, if we adhere to either the traditional style or IPA, then it can lead to a confusion. There is a way to use IPA tone letters, but I don't really like them that much. I also advice to change the "key" link in Template:lv-pron, which leads to English pronunciation. Soshial (talk) 22:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm using an "older" IPA tone transcription system: ā = level tone, à = falling tone, â = rising/falling intonation, which I prefer to the traditional one, and which is more transparent. --Pereru (talk) 22:17, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for clarification. You suggest using the old traditional/old system? Soshial (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments on IPA transcribingEdit

Please don't use /ts/ (pronounced separately) as a corresponding sound to Latvian 'c' letter: it is only /t͡s/ (pronounced together). Example of wrong transcription: kas lācītim vēderā. For example, in Russian there is a difference between отсыпать: [ɐˈt̪s̪ɨpətʲ] and (от) цыпы [ˈt͡sɨpɨ]. Soshial (talk) 22:52, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

As for ts vs. t͡s, I understand the difference (I work with IPA almost every day), but I don't think that it matters much for the purposes of indicating Latvian pronunciation. The point here is not producing a very scientific transcription that would allow specialists to see rhythmic/syllabic differences like that, but simply to allow the "average reader" to have an idea of how to pronounce Latvian words. The Russian pronunciation you gave, for instance, is of course correct, but is in practice confusing and difficult to read, with its diacritics, to the "average reader"; something like [aˈtsɨpatʲ] or [atsɨpatʲ] (not indicating the dental articulation of the t and s, or the difference between pretonic and postonic "reduced" o pronunciation) would probably be more useful. Now, having said that, I'm not in principle against it. If you want to introduce t͡s in all cases where it applies, feel free to do so. But since I don't think this is really an improvement, I'm not going to do it myself. --Pereru (talk) 22:17, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I see what you mean, but there is a same difference in pronounciation between, say, "atslēga" and "aclēga", and it needs to be reflected in transcription. Soshial (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
My whole point is that I think it doesn't need to be. Did you read what I wrote? :-) --Pereru (talk) 03:18, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Also, another request: stop using alveolar flap /ɾ/ instead of /r/. It is not Portuguese. Thank you. Soshial (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

But my point is, this isn't necessary. Why should I do it, when it's going to make things harder for those who want to pronounce Latvian? (By the way, when I listen to Latvians on the internet, it sounds like a flap, not like a trill; the first /r/ in karavīrs sounds just like Portuguese -- or Spanish -- cara; it seems to me the flap symbol is better. But my whole point is that it doesn't matter so much for the purposes of this dictionary. This is not a book on phonetics.) --Pereru (talk) 03:18, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Latvian-Russian phraseological dictionaryEdit

Привет. Не знаю, я недавно отсканировал словарь, которого в интернете не найти. Тебе может быть он нужен в электронной форме для Wiktionary или вообще? Обращайся. Сорри за русский. Soshial (talk) 20:04, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Отвечайте, пожалуйста, всегда в нити обсуждания. Если всё-таки нужно привлечь внимание собеседника, то просто напишите ссылку на User:... и ему придёт уведомление. Мне нужен твой email, чтобы поделиться словарём. Как собираетесь его использовать тут на этом проекте? Например, добавлять информацию в словарные статьи... Soshial (talk) 13:35, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Понятно... Извини. Ну, насчёт словаря, я сейчас довольно занят, так что практически ничего не могу делать. Но в будущее я бы хотел добавлять фразеологическую информацию к статьям (и наверно тоже создавать новые статьи для фразеологизмов)... --Pereru (talk) 09:24, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Мой e-mail: --Pereru (talk) 16:32, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Ну как, удалось? Хороший словарь? Soshial (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Да, хороший -- хотя что у меня ещё не было времени чтобы посмотреть аккуратно (слышком много работы в реальном мире...) --Pereru (talk) 13:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Здравствуйте, как поживаете? Я, к своему сожалению, увидел, что вы остановились в добавлении новых латышских статей. Мне очень-очень помогают они в изучении латышского, особенно таблицы со спряжениями глаголов! С надеждой на возобновление, Soshial (talk) 21:51, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Latvian verb austEdit

How much do you know about the verb aust, which might mean "to weave"? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 00:35, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't know it personally, but my trusty English-Latvian dictionary tells mere aust may mean "to dawn" (cf. Latin aurora), and also "to weave". The LEV tells me these are two different words with different origins: aust-1 ("to dawn") ultimately from PIE aws-, awes- "to shine" and aust-2 ("to weave") ultimately from PIE *au-' (< H²eu) "to weave", "to braid" (from an earlier meaning "to tie", "to bind"). Is that what you want to know? --Pereru (talk) 01:50, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Just the parameters in the module. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:35, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I've just added that, and a lot more, to the entry itself (see aust). --Pereru (talk) 04:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I came across the word as a yellow link in a translation section and I thought, Hello, maybe I could fill in the blanks by the Lao Tzu phrase: Because of the space where nothing is, we have the use of the wheel. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 06:17, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
What could be better than to fulfil what which is between the lines in the teaching of the master? Let East meet West in a Wiktionary entry... --Pereru (talk) 02:23, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

lang=lv parametrsEdit

Čau, es izteicu priekšlikumu BP, ka visus šķirkļus ar audio failiem vajadzētu automātiski klasificēt kategorijās "[valoda] entries with audio links" (vai cits līdzīgs nosaukums). Pēc CodeCat domām lang= parametrs būtu pareizākais veids kā to darīt. Ja tev ir brīvs brīdis, varētu izteikt savu viedokli šajā te nelielajā diskusijā (man gan personīgi liekas, ka tur pat diskutēt nav par ko, bet oh well...) Neitrāls vārds (talk) 21:50, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, es tev un CodeCat piekrītu. Varbūt ir iespējams atrast kādu, kas varētu mainīt visus šķirkļus, lai iekļautu parametru lang=lv... (CodeCat ir dažreiz mazliet uzstājīga par detāļiem, bet, kā teici, "oh well..." Būt ietiecīgiem ir vienmēr labāk.) --Pereru (talk) 00:13, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Viņa (vai arī "viņš" saskaņā ar dažām sazvērestības teorijām :D) teica, ka ar to varētu viegli tikt galā ar botu. Cerams, ka viņa "neuzmetīs" ar to solījumu, jo tā parametra pievienošana jau eksistējošām {{audio}} "instancēm" ir viens no svarīgākajiem aspektiem visā tajā. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 02:39, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
Kā saka Brazīlijā, lai Dievs tevi dzirdētu! :-) --Pereru (talk) 16:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Fontu maiņaEdit

Čau, ja tu izmanto defaulto/noklusējuma dizainu (t.i. to pašu, ko redz neielogojušies apmeklētāji), BP ir diskusija, kur iespējams izteikt viedokli par neseno fontu maiņu (nu t.i., protams, ja ir specifisks viedoklis). Neitrāls vārds (talk) 22:51, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Hm, tā diskusija man šķiet ne ļoti nozīmīga... Man nav specifiska viedokļa par to. --Pereru (talk) 16:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Two Random NounsEdit

I came across two Latvian nouns, Template:l/lv and Template:l/lv. You could have fun with them. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Done for Template:l/lv; I'll have a look at Template:l/lv tomorrow. Nice words! --Pereru (talk) 17:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Newbie user LalalalaSta (talkcontribs) made Ohaio. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 18:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Are you working on lija yet? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
I just did -- now it's done. --Pereru (talk) 21:00, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Another Latvian nounEdit

Here's another noun for you to tackle: lustra (chandelier). --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 06:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

And then there's this verb. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I'll get to them in due time. Meanwhile, I have a couple of other things I want to do first. --Pereru (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
And then there's the word islams. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:19, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
And mošeja. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:16, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
There's Template:l/lv (horsetail plant) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Indeed... but these will have to wait a little. I'm quite busy off-web right now, and it may be a while before I can give them any attention... (I will be back though. Sooner or later I'll need my Latvian fix. :-) --Pereru (talk) 10:27, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Where are these words coming from, by the way? Are you adding them for some specific reason, or just randomly? --Pereru (talk) 10:28, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
I just happen to have this bads (hunger) for Latvian yellow links, that's all. XD --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:02, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
I found the words just here in the English Wiktionary. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:03, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Hi, are you interested in creating mezgls? If so, be my guest! --Fsojic (talk) 09:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
And santīms would be great (as this appears to be request-land). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)


I added the declension table for that proper noun; and added pelde. (BTW, what is that project that you're working on basically all about? Here's also a native Latvian speaker named Čumbavamba (talkcontribs).) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I basically worked in Latvian Wiktionary. If need help about Latvian words, I try to help. --Čumbavamba (talk) 10:52, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Multiple identical headword lines in the same part-of-speech sectionEdit

Just a heads up that I made this edit. If it was in error, I'd love to learn why and/or by what authority it was a mistake, so I don't do it again. Thanks.​—msh210 (talk) 04:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@Msh210, hi! Well, the principle I was following was to list homophonous forms belonging to different sublemmas under separate subheadings. So sociālistiskā is both a form of the sublemma sociālistisks, the basic indefinite form of this adjective, and of the sublemma sociālistiskais, the corresponding definite form. Basically, since they don't come from the same table, they get different subsections. Now, I'm not claiming that this necessarily follows established policy (link?), but (a) it is logical and consistent, and (b) there are literally thousands of Latvian inflection-of pages that obey this format; if (after a good discussion with pertinent arguments) you still want to do this, then you'd have to change all those pages so as to avoid format inconsistency. This looks to me like a lot of work for very little payoff. (To keep format consistency, I undid your change.) --Pereru (talk) 05:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Fair enough. Thanks for the info. (By the way, for your future reference, [[user:msh210|anything]] should ping me, I think, but @Msh210 without the link did not.)​—msh210 (talk) 07:30, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
msh210, I'm glad you agree! Hm, I thought '@' was the ping symbol... thanks for the info. --Pereru (talk) 11:32, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Viens diffsEdit

diff. Nevarēju izdomāt, vai vienkārši novērst (revert) vai meklēt kurā pielikumā/apendiksā tie radniecīgie vārdi nokļuva? Neitrāls vārds (talk) 19:06, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Neitrāls vārds, es domāju, ka ir labāk novērst (es pats padarīšu novēršanu...), jo visi latviešu šķirkļiem ir radniecīgu vārdu saraksts. Vispirms vajadzētu apspriest šadu izmaiņu, un tikai pēc tam paveikt to. --Pereru (talk) 19:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

...visvairāk mani satrauc nevīžība (nodzēsta atsauce, tukšs "References" headeris...) Un uzraugāmo rakstu saraksts ir diezgan bezjēdzīgs šajā sakarā, jo viņam ir laika limits 30 dienas, tādējādi šādi labojumi paslīd garām nepamanīti... Neitrāls vārds (talk) 21:13, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Šī ir liela problēma Vikivārdnīcā, un viens no iemesliem, kāpēc es bieži domāju, ka Vikivārdnīca nav "uzticama"... Tādas izmaiņas var notikt bez diskusijām, bez nekāda brīdinājuma, un mēs neko nevaram darīt. Varbūt būtu labi pieminēt šo "Tējas Istabā" un sākt diskusiju? --Pereru (talk) 21:26, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Man vienmēr ir gribējies lobēt (lobby) jauna nediskutējama/obligāta noteikuma ieviešanu: "jebkādi papildinājumi referencētās rindkopās (kas nav daļa no oriģinālā avota) ir jāliek kvadrātiekavās ar skaidru piezīmi, ka tie nav daļa no oriģinālā avota vai jāpievieno pēc atsauces augšējā indeksa (superscript) numura." Nu, vai kaut kā tamlīdzīgi... Man tā mūžīgā stīvēšanās (back and forth) ar bat-pro versus bsl-pro krīt uz nerviem, piemēram, ja oriģ. ir bat, tad tā arī būtu jābut, pēc atsauces var pielikt piezīmi, ka tas nav valīds filoģenētisks grupējums, jo slāvi cēlās no rietumbaltiem or something un nekādu problēmu. Tas pats teorētiski attiektos teiksim uz fiu-pro (saskaņā ar jaunākajām tendencēm tas vairs netiek uzskatīts par valīdu grupējumu, jo fiu-pro = urj-pro), bet tik un tā atsaucēm manuprāt vienmēr ir jādublē oriģ. avots 1:1.
Man gan ir nedaudz bail no "konsensa būvēšanas" diskusijām, turklāt vairums no viņām vienkārši "izčākst" nesasniegušas nekādu gala slēdzienu (they fizzle out without reaching any conclusion.) Nezinu, vai vērts tērēt laiku... Neitrāls vārds (talk) 02:42, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Mjāā, es tevi saprotu... un piekrītu pilnīgi. Bet, citajā pusē, bez "konsensa būvēšanas" diskusijām, kā varētu sadarboties tik daudz cilvēku vienā projektā? Un kāpēc tās darbojas labāk Vikipedijā, nekā šeit Vikivārdnīcā? Rezultāti, raksti tur ir brīnišķīgi... Mēs jau nedrīkstam paši izlemt, kādi noteikumi ir jābūt, un pēc tam īstenot tos. Ja mēs varētu vismaz likt citus runāt par nepieciešamību būt 100% uztīcīgs avotiem!... --Pereru (talk) 03:40, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Tev taisnība, bez diskusijām nebūtu nekāda progresa, šāda defeatist attitude nav ideālākais variants. Ja tu atvērtu šādu diskusiju, es mēģinātu iemest aci un izteikties tur. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 14:54, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
OK... Kad man būs laiks (varbūt jau rīt) es sākšu diskusiju. --Pereru (talk) 16:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Usage examplesEdit

Please don't forget to use {{ux}} or {{usex}} for usage examples. I've fixed one entry, can you fix the rest please? —CodeCat 19:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Too many of them -- over a thousand entries in Latvian alone. Isn't there a way to do that with a bot? --Pereru (talk) 19:47, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I see you mean the Eastern Mari example. Hmmm -- I have to say that using {{ux}} or {{usex}} makes the result look rather unwiedly. I think the compact format which I used before is to be preferred. If you want me to go on using these templates, they would have to become more compact... Would you mind if I edited them to make it so? (For the time being, I will just revert the change you made, and start a discussion in the Beer Parlor.) --Pereru (talk) 19:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
I've always wondered why the templates weren't written so that inline=1 was always added unless the lines got too long. —CodeCat 20:19, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
OK. That looks better. On another note, though: is it really necessary to have the transliteration? I would rather transliterations were limited to headwords... --Pereru (talk) 20:22, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
That's something you'll need to discuss more widely. The current practice, as implemented by these templates, is to include a transliteration. —CodeCat 20:29, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Purely my personal opinion is that it may not be possible to use the exact same formatting as Latvian entries do. Due to specifics of Cyrillic, e.g., italic cyr is globally banned in templates afaik and I like this, when used in the presence of Latin, it can become really confusing, e.g., I can't comfortably tell the difference between anna and аппа (I have this prob. with this one Mordv. etyl dict.) People who can't read cyr should also be considered, for example, I can really only read ltn, cyr and kana and I always get mildly pissed when I'm confronted with, e.g., an untranslited Greek word because my ability to read grc is rudimentary although many people probably think that "only uneducated people can't read grc" or that "everyone can read grc, don't they!" Well, I can't and I demand translit, lol.

"Sigh!"... But Greek is already so close to Cyrilic! Is it really that hard to read προλεγόμενα και παραλιπόμενα or θέλω να μάθω την ελληνική γλώσσα? :-/ ... --Pereru (talk) 10:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

@CC, I actually started to prefer the cascading usexes because they can look "less crazy" when I'm trying to "pool" key forms in the quotations. Although I do not have any strong opinion re this.

I think they're OK if you have only one or two examples, but they quickly occupy too much space when you have many examples -- even if they're short, the page soon becomes annoyingly long. --Pereru (talk) 10:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Also, did I mention that I'm really excited for some Mari! :D Pereru, you probably saw this already, that Austrian site claimed that the "Let's learn Mari!" book has been released in the public domain, this is a strong indication that the accompanying audio files could be in the PD as well, which could mean a realistic chance of actually having audio files. The editing could be a bit complicated though as there would probably be very short pauses between words, also this brings up the question of adding audio to non-lemma forms, although afaik there's nothing that would forbid it, in fact, it would add a lot of value to them. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 09:01, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I noticed that the site lets you download the audio files for every lesson (which helps -- I have the original .pdf for the original book in Russian, which I was using, together with the website, to get examples). I didn't see there that the files were in the public domain -- does "freely downloadable" imply public domain? Does it imply that I can change and re-upload files, or do I have to leave them unmodified? I didn't see a release form there. Do you also study Mari? I noticed you work on Morksha and Erzya... Are you a Finno-Ugricist? Wondering about Komi, Udmurt, Samoyed... :-) --Pereru (talk) 10:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Audio and IPA on non-lemmas is absolutely fine and I would encourage it. —CodeCat 11:06, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
I agree. The only problem is whether we can use and manipulate files from that Austrian Mari site... or else we have to wait for a native speaker of Eastern Mari to find Wiktionary. --Pereru (talk) 11:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
This page on what I call "the Austrian site" says: As this book has been released into the public domain (see license information on page 2) (..). PDF page 2: This book is published under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license, now this raises several questions:
  • does it apply only to the en translation
  • can a translation be released into the PD with the original remaining copyrighted
  • as the audio files could be viewed as an integral part of the book (regardless translated or untranslated), can this be taken to mean that releasing the book into the PD extends to them?
I think (hope) that the answers are no/no/yes, this could perhaps be quickly confirmed by email. Even if there are obstacles to this, I think that they would have the means to change the situation if someone convinces them, a hypothetical scenario where Mari coverage would have grown would be a good argument (and an example to present to them what would be the intended use of such audio files.) However, I really think that the current info suggests that they may already be in the PD. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 15:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
It certainly does look that way, given the "free to remix" part in the page 2 pdf. An e-mail at the appropriate time, as you suggest, may be worthwhile!...--Pereru (talk) 19:06, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Given nameEdit

Hi, why did you made this change to {{given name}}? In most – if not all – entries which use it, the pronoun is the first letter of the sentence so it should be capitalized everywhere—see Andrew, Vicky, László, etc. Einstein2 (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I had thought that wasn't the case (I was myself using it in a context where an initial lowercase was necessary), but after having a look around I realized you guys are indeed correct. I have just reverted the change. Thanks for the note. --Pereru (talk) 19:09, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Kāpēc gribi vispirms likt vārdu formu un tikai pēc tam lemmu?Edit

Man liekas, ka ierakstu par kādu vārdu ir tikai loģiski sākt ar lemmu un tikai pēc tam rakstīt par vārda formām. Es runāju par šīm atceltajām darbībām: droši un laukā. Vai varbūt atcēli manas izmaiņas kādu citu iemeslu dēļ? Ja domā, ka vispirms jāraksta par lietvārdiem, tad īpašības vārdiem, tad par nākošo vārdšķiru, tad Vikivārdnīcā ir pietiekami daudz piemēri, kur tas netiek darīts. --Čumbavamba (talk) 13:02, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Es patiešam domāju, ka tā kārtība ir labāka un skaistāka (un varbūt arī loģiskāka: "lietvārds"-"īpašības vārds"-"darbības vārds"-"apstākļu vārds" utt.). Tiesība Taisnība, Vikivārdnīcā izmantoja arī citas kārtības, bet man liekas ka Vikivārdnīcā ir visiem brīvība izvēlēties atškīrīgas sistēmas (piem. locījumu tabulās), un es jau sen sāku izmantot L-IV-DV-AV... un tagad visu daru tā, lai saglabātu konsistenci konsekvenci. Vai gribi apspriest to tālāk, varam turpināt sarunu... --Pereru (talk) 13:42, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Es arī, lai ievērotu konsekvenci, veicu šīs izmaiņas :), bet laikam Jūs konsekventi to darījāt saistībā ar latviešu valodas ierakstiem, es atkal gribēju konsekventi ar visu Vikipēdiju... PS: Cepuri nost, ļoti labi runā (raksti) latviešu valodā... Atļāvos izlabot divas kļūdas, kas iekrita acīs... --Čumbavamba (talk) 14:40, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Paldies :-)... Man ļoti patīk latviešu valoda, taču šeit (Brazilijā) man parasti nav iespēja runāt latviski (protams iespējams meklēt un atrast latviešu materiālus internetā, bet tā ir cita lieta)... Tagad man šķiet grūti visu mainīt (un neesmu pārliecināts, vai viss sekot vienu un to pašu formatu arī citās valodās); vai tas Jums nešķiet pārāk daudz darba? (Starp citu, vēlreiz paldies par palidzību ar kļudām; man bieži ir šaubas piem. par pareiziem tulkojumiem angļu valodā... Jo redzat vairākas kļudas, lūdzu izlabojiet tas! :)... ---Pereru (talk)
Vai Tev ir "Tildes Datorvārdnīca"? Ja nav, tad iesaku to nokačāt (download) un uzinstalēt, tā varētu Tev noderēt. --Čumbavamba (talk) 08:56, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Darbības vārdi, kas beidzas ar -ties ir nenoteiksmēEdit

Latviešu valodā darbības vārdi, kas beidzas ar -ties ir nenoteiksmē, bet pašlaik tie visi ir atzīmēt kā Latvian verb forms, nevis kā Latvian verbs. Skatīt Category:Latvian reflexive verb forms. Manuprāt kategorijai ir nepareizs nosaukums, to vajadzētu saukt piemēram par Category:Latvian reflexive verbs. Vēl dažiem atgriezeniskajiem darbības vārdiem (reflexive verbs) norādīts, ka tie sastopami tikai trešajā personā, kas neatbilst gluži patiesībai. Piemēram, ierakstā cepties ir rakstīts only 3rd person, bet teikumā "es visu dienu cepos saulē" šis vārds sastopams pirmajā personā, bet teikumā "tu cepsies elles ugunīs" arī otrajā personā. Tāpat ir arī ar vārdiem apcepties ("es apcepos saulē"), izcepties un nocepties. --Čumbavamba (talk) 13:26, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Interessanti... es jautāju sev, ja tas bija iespējams... [LLVV] raksta, ka tie darbības vārdi sastopami tikai trešajā personā; tas ir tad nepareizs? --Pereru (talk) 13:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Tur ir rakstīts "parasti" (usually), nevis "tikai" (only). Manis nosauktajos piemēros šie vārdi ir rakstīti pārnestā nozīmē. --Čumbavamba (talk) 14:31, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
OK. Es mainīšu tos vārdus šodien vēlāk. Jūs varbūt varat vēlāk arī pievienot Jūsu piemērus ("es visu dienu cepos saulē")? --Pereru (talk) 21:14, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Kategoriju jau esmu mainījis, un arī darbības vārdu cepties. Esmu arī kopējis Jūsu piemēru ("es visu dienu cepos saulē"), bet nezinu, vai to pareizi esmu sapratis -- vai Jūs varat paskatīties? Paldies! (Un -- vai "sauļoties" var būt sinonīms? Domāju, ka nē, bet varbūt es kļudos?) --Pereru (talk) 01:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Šajā gadījumā "sauļoties" būs sinonīms... Tāpēc jau teicu, ka tie ir pārnestā nozīmē. --Čumbavamba (talk) 08:45, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Lūdzu apskati šo ierakstu censties. Man liekas, ka vajag kaut kā savādāk to noformulēt (par to, ka latviešu valodā nav vārda "censt"). --Čumbavamba (talk) 08:49, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Latvian entries in User:DTLHS/cleanup/headword templatesEdit

Should these all be Eastern Mari? DTLHS (talk) 01:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Also: Ohajas. DTLHS (talk) 02:12, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

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