Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2012/September

This is an archive page that has been kept for historical purposes. The conversations on this page are no longer live.

object for cognates

Hello hello,

I would like to know if there is already a template for an object that could show cognates (pan-lingually), e.g. in the article for chary there would be a "cognates" box somewhere, perhaps near the "translations" box, and in that box there would be links to cognates of chary, such as care or karg.

thanks--Dixfranke (talk) 20:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cognates are usually listed in the etymology section of an entry. See chary#Etymology for example. —An gr 20:35, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

own#Etymology 3

We are the only modern dictionary that has own#Etymology 3. Bogorm took it from Webster 1913. But MW3 and MWOnline don't follow MW1913. Does anyone? DCDuring TALK 20:14, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gothic 𐌷𐌰𐌻𐌻𐌿𐍃 (hallus)

My Latvian Etymological Dictionary cites this word as meaning "cliff, rock"; a quick search in the Gothic dictionaries at Lexikologs confirms that. However, the romanized form hallus is apparently not attested (hallu is attested, but the entry doesn't say what it means) -- it is not here at Wiktionary, and someone told me all Gothic forms from Ulfilas' bible (the only source for Gothic, right?) are listed here. How come this one isn't then? Is it an inflected form (in which case the LEV forgot to mention this fact)? Should an entry for the romanization be created (and perhaps a main entry for the Gothic script version)? --Pereru (talk) 13:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not all we know of Gothic is from the bible, there's also the Skeireins which I think is some commentaries about the bible. All romanizations on Wiktionary come from [1], but those are literal romanizations of the words found in that text. So if a word only occurs in a certain inflected form then we will not have a romanization for its lemma form yet. I looked in Gerhard Köbler's Gothic dictionary, which lists all attestations for each word form, and it says that only the accusative hallu is attested, which is the form you found. So hallus is just the nominative form that goes with it but it's not found in any texts. —CodeCa t 13:15, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

chop-chop

Is this really derived from Mandarin? This blog post suggests it comes from Cantonese gāp (急), which sounds more plausible. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:02, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly the current derivation from Mandarin kuai-kuai or even Cantonese faai-faai seems very implausible. Merriam-Webster and AHD agree that the "chop" of "chop-chop" is the same as the "chop" of chopstick, and the Online Etymology Dictionary derives that from Cantonese kap "urgent", which I assume is the same thing as 急 gāp. —An gr 15:23, 15 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the entry to reflect this — revert me if you know better. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

saltchuck

Our entry says this is from Chinook Jargon; the only support I can find for that is the website of a company called Saltchuk. Dictionary.com derives it from entirely English roots. - -sche (discuss) 05:53, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OED: "Chinook jargon, < salt adj.1 + chuck n.6". "Chuck" meaning a body of water. DTLHS (talk) 16:56, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And I'm not saying that's correct, but that was my source. DTLHS (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, thanks for checking! I'll add the OED as a reference for the Chinook etymology~~, and add the English etymology with its references as another possibility.~~ - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it seems I was just misreading (mis-cross-referencing) Dictionary.com's cornucopia of English dictionaries, the sense of "chuck" I now see they're actually referring to is given as a derivative of this word meaning "any body of water". - -sche (discuss) 19:03, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Telugu etymology template

Can someone help me in preparing the etymology template for Telugu wiktionary, which will work in Sanskrit, and English in the beginning. Later on we can expand it to other languages. Thanking you.Rajasekhar1961 (talk) 13:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

nein

Does anyone know how the word nein came about? How closely related is it to no?

German Wiktionary claims it was originally a contraction of nicht + ein "not one". -- Liliana • 09:40, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be from OHG ni + ein? Or else how would the 'cht' disappear? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 09:53, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Duden agrees it's ni + ein. Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:40, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is closely related to, in fact, cognate with, no (=not any, none), as in I have no money, being analogous to it in construct (both from the Ur-Germanic *ne ainą). Otherwise, where no (=opposite of yes), it is only marginally related. Leasnam (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From ni/nei + ein? Similar (and perhaps cognate) to the English formation "none", no + one! Etimo (talk) 11:21, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

no go

Seems extremely ungrammatical in English... the similarity to long time no see made me think that it might be from Chinese Pidgin English, as a calque of 不去. But could it be imitation CPE, or unrelated? I'd like it if someone could shed light on this. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:47, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess it originated as the opposite of go. Ex: "It's a go." "It's a no-go". --WikiTiki89 (talk) 10:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If so, the rhyme is probably responsible for it not being "non-go" Chuck Entz (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Calque? No way. DCDuring TALK 17:27, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

naked[watch | edit]

See anon comments at Talk:naked. (Note that the anon has already modified naked#Etymology in accordance with his/her views.)

Proto-Slavic *rьtǫtь

One of the etymology dictionaries says that Proto-Slavic *rьtǫtь (and Polish [[rtęć]]) could be of Turkic or Arabic origin. Do you know any similar Turkish, Ottoman Turkish, Arabic or Persian word that could be an ancestor for this? Related to mercury or Mercury. Maro 12:25, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, please also see Russian "ртуть (rtutʹ)". I imported the etymology from a Wikipedia article, which mentioned "*rьtǫtь". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:31, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes what? :) I'm looking for a Turkic ancestor for these. Maro 12:40, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I meant I was also interested in this :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The words are a participle of Proto-Slavic *rьtǫtь 'to roll, to rotate', inherited from Proto-Indo-European. Vasmer mentions the theory of derivation from Turkish Utarit, Arabic عطارد (ˁuṭārid, “quicksilver?, planet Mercury”), but dismisses it on phonetic grounds. --Vahag (talk) 15:08, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Vahag, so Turkic or Arabic origin was just a theory? What could I use as a reference? Do you have a link or is it in a book? The etymology of "ртуть (rtutʹ)" must be correct then. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I added a link in ртуть. --Vahag (talk) 07:02, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is an archive page that has been kept for historical purposes. The conversations on this page are no longer live.