Wiktionary:Information desk/2017/October

discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← September 2017 · October 2017 · November 2017 → · (current)

you mad broEdit

I would like to enquire whether the Wiktionary community would deem the existence of such an entry appropriate. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:CCCC:AFF0:AF12:8F7B 08:51, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't, unless it means something beyond "(Are) [[you]] [[mad]], [[bro]]?" —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:23, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

sic translations errorEdit

This Japanese: ママ (ja) (mama) does not belong here. The link takes you to the Japanese word for momma, as does the associated Wikipedia article. If anyone knows the correct word, please add it. Thank you. 04:39, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

The Japanese translation is correct. The problem is that the sic meaning has not yet been added to ママ. Here is an example of the Japanese word for sic showing how it is used:
...his April 1992 interview with the Dolly Llama 〔ママ〕... (implying that "Dally Llama" was so written) —Stephen (Talk) 22:06, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Where to report missing words?Edit

I just noticed that the word "catchplate" (and "catch plate" too) are missing in the wiktionary. Is there a place to report such words in order to request starting a new entry for them? Fructibus (talk) 16:18, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

@Fructibus: Welcome. The best place would be Wiktionary:Wanted entries. --Barytonesis (talk) 16:24, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

New Dictionary for Stoney Nakoda LanguageEdit


I'm working with some communities in the Canadian prairies to create an open-source dictionary for the Stoney Nakoda language. This First Nations language is spoken in a handful of communities and we would like to create a user-friendly dictionary where community members can add words and insert recordings from their phones of native speakers saying these words. We'd also like to tag the recordings by location, as there are differences in pronunciation between the different Stoney-speaking communities.

The dictionary would be more for translation purposes, with words in Stoney/English. Ultimately, we would like to develop something that can be used on mobile devices easily.

Would a wiktionary be the right way to go? If so, how do we create a new dictionary in this language?

Thanks for your help and consideration.

jason —This unsigned comment was added by Mtset (talkcontribs).

What development resources do you have? We definitely don't have easy mobile recording of words right now, but something like that could be developed. DTLHS (talk) 18:40, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
To be more specific: are you looking for an existing platform that has all these features, or if not, would you be able to contribute to developing these features? We have the backend to store the information but the mobile interface and editor need a lot of work. DTLHS (talk) 18:56, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
The English Wiktionary (this very website) is for "language x"→English definitions and is licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0, so that part is good. The plain-text-based editing interface might be intimidating though.
Recordings are uploaded to commons.wikimedia.org first (which is mildly tedious), then can be used on any website in the Wikimedia network (including the English Wiktionary). Note that there is a group of French Wiktionarians working on streamlining that part by creating an intermediate website where entire wordlists are recorded in succession. Marking both recordings and definitions is easily done here (see garage for an example).
There are certainly Wiktionary-based apps out there but I don't know much about those. —suzukaze (tc) 19:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
  • "CC BY-SA 3.0" - That's probably only semi-good, especially if they would want to 'port' that Nakoda dictionary, like for example print it. List of authors of Das Wikipedia Lexikon is very long, somewhat messy and some author names are vulgar (e.g. "**sperma**", "Arsch123, Arsch2004, ArschMitOhren, Arschgeige3, Arschimedes, Arschmich"). Yet even this long list of authors probably wouldn't be enough for CC BY-SA 3.0.
  • "where community members can add words" - That sounds like it could violate WT:CFI#Number of citations.
- 20:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Our CFI are not a problem if this was to be a new wiktionary, i.e. the Stoney Nakoda version.__Gamren (talk) 19:54, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
CFI is obviously going to be tough for lesser-known languages without a lot of published text. We seem to have plenty of space for appendices of protologisms and fiction, so I would have thought that something more academic like this could go unchallenged in userspace or possibly appendix space, even if it's not ready for mainspace. Equinox 21:26, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Any person who supports Template:senseid removals?Edit

WTF is going on with admins at this wiki. Constantly...


Can @Rua explain their removal? d1g (talk) 05:53, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

If I had been the one to remove it, it would have been because "Q5" is not an appropriate senseid. The ID should be something easy to remember, like {{senseid|ru|guy}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
"guy" has 6 meanings. d1g (talk) 12:32, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
But тип corresponds to only one of them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:41, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Which guy? 6 options.
"guy-1" ... "guy-6" isn't better than Q5. d1g (talk) 16:55, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Are all the terms that you added the senseid to synonyms of each other? —Rua (mew) 17:28, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
They refer to person, so Q5 is appropriate. d1g (talk) 18:13, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
teacher also refers to a person, that doesn't make it a candidate for Q5. —Rua (mew) 18:33, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I support the removal of all senseids and the deletion of the template. DTLHS (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I would appreciate more broad discussion or voting event then. d1g (talk) 18:19, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
It is not clear to me whether any Wikidata entities are allowed to be included in that template, the local policy requires approval for any use of Wikidata content beyond testing and tracking and I don't see the approval for this usage. This is also a WT:BP discussion not an WT:ID discussion. - TheDaveRoss 19:01, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Created a proper voting draft
Please continue there. d1g (talk) 15:51, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


"Sportscape is a term commonly used in sports marketing to refer to the physical surroundings of a sporting stadium that affect spectators' desire to both attend and to return to that stadium to watch sport (Shank 2002)". [1], [2], [3]. See also landscape, servicescape. --2A02:2788:A4:F44:8546:17EC:C869:4D16 21:51, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Where are interwiki links stored?Edit


I can't find the code given here in the example entry.

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Interwiki links for entries are automatic, nothing needs to be done (or indeed, can be done) to add/remove them. —Rua (mew) 16:03, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Perhaps the help page linked to above should be updated accordingly? Apokrif (talk) 16:19, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It shows 25 interwikis. I think it's working okay. —Stephen (Talk) 20:17, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
I believe @Apokrif is talking about the Help:Interwiki_linking#Entries page, which is now obsolete. Also, doesn't Wikidata have something to do with it? --Barytonesis (talk) 20:21, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, Wikidata deals with it. I updated the Help page. --P5Nd2 (talk) 20:38, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


Is "ΦΙΛΗΜΑΤΟΛΟΓΙΑΣ" (or transcribed and lower-cased philematologias) as found in a title really a Latin word and a Latin inflected form?

  • The usual Latin first declension genitive, even of loans from Greek, is -ae (cp. theologia, Aeneas, cometes). -as could be a younger (like Medieval or New Latin) and rarer genitive form, but is it?
  • Doesn't the Greek script show that it's rather Greek than Latin, like code-switching, citation, mentioning?
  • Assuming it's Latin. As it's written in Greek letters, wouldn't it be Latin ΦΙΛΗΜΑΤΟΛΟΓΙΑΣ or lower-cased φιληματολογίας or φιληματολογιας? And shouldn't there be a cat like Category:Latin terms written in Greek script similar to Category:Chinese terms written in foreign scripts?

- 22:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

What do you call the "door" in a pub's bar?Edit

The bar in many pubs has a section that can be temporarily "flipped" open to allow the staff to move between the bar and the main pub. Is there a name for that? Equinox 22:45, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

"Flip-up counter" / "flip top counter" gets some results. I haven't found anything that looks like a set phrase. DTLHS (talk) 21:56, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

CJK Strokes blockEdit

On Chrome, the characters after U+31CF ㇏ are not displayed. Any solution? Thanx --Backinstadiums (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

It's a font issue. I use Chrome too, and they display for me. I would recommend downloading the font Noto Serif CJK SC (or TC). Not sure if you would need a CSS rule to make sure the font is used. — Eru·tuon 21:50, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: They still aren't displayed; could you please offer step-by-step guidelines to include a CSS rule? --Backinstadiums (talk) 07:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: Open your common.css page, edit it, add the code .Hani { font-family: Noto Serif CJK SC; }, and save. (Change the font name if you downloaded a different font.) I think that should make the characters show up in Appendix:Unicode/CJK_Strokes and other places where they have the CSS class Hani. Let me know if that works. — Eru·tuon 07:49, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Erutuon: It hasn't worked. Can you checked my common.css? --Backinstadiums (talk) 08:01, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: Your CSS code looks correct, if that is the font you have installed. You might try closing Chrome and reopening it to make sure the font has been loaded by Chrome (though closing and reopening the tab usually works for me). If not that doesn't work, I have no idea what the problem might be. I may have been completely wrong. But you could try right-clicking on the character that isn't displaying, pressing "inspect element" in the menu, and then using the Developer Tools to find out what font is being used. See here for a picture. — Eru·tuon 09:59, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: The ones that do show up are PMingLiU—Local, while the rest are Arial—Local, so perhaps it's just the squares which are Arial. --Backinstadiums (talk) 13:57, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: Well, now I really don't know what is going on. Maybe there is another place where you can ask for help. — Eru·tuon 21:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Greek dialects and accentsEdit

Old editions of Anacreon (1789, Berlin & Libau; 1807, Wien) don't have accents and for example have Ηρακλεους (cp. Ἡρακλῆς) and δε (cp. δέ). What is it?

  • An old error? Maybe due to typographic limitations?
  • An obsolete form, and a defective one? Maybe because Anacreon's (or more general Ionic) accent wasn't known back then?
  • An alternative form, though a defective one? Maybe because Anacreon's accent still isn't fully known or is not properly attested by very old manuscripts?

Other forms by the way are: Ηρακλέους (1634, Paris; 1782, Lipsia -- with accents, but capital letters without spiritus), Ἡρακλέους (1826, Gotha & Erfordia; 1840, Amstelodamum - 'standard'). - 20:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

It's probably just an editorial decision; they probably thought it was easier to read without the diacritics. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply.
That's similar to error due to typographic limitation and should too mean that it doesn't belong into an alternative forms section. - 17:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Category:Latin terms spelled with ǏEdit

All inflected forms of a not yet entered lemma. Should it be created, or should these forms be deleted? DTLHS (talk) 00:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The diacritic should be nuked. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Deleted as bot errors.
Quite an odd error: caron instead of breve. — Eru·tuon 02:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I've deleted all the forms and the category. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:58, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Rosary BanglesEdit

I recently bought a bulk load of jewelry, included was a set of Rosary bangles bought in 1971. These were used in place of rosary beads at a time in history when the Catholics were forbidden to wear or have in their possession Rosary Beads. I'm hoping someone can give me more information about these, the date and time period that they were used and any other information anyone might have in relation to these. I have searched and found nothing about these. Many Thanks

John Goddard

We're a dictionary, we can't help you with this. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe the question can be asked at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk . - 17:31, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Prevented from improving an article!Edit

I wanted to develop the etymology of planethood as “Late 17th century; earliest use found in Nathaniel Fairfax (1637–1690), physician and antiquary. planet +‎ -hood[1]”. However, I get this message: “This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: Forbid References as L2 header". Could I have an explanation of why adding further elements with a source as Oxford Dictionaries, so afaik reliable, would be “harmful”??
Thank you in advance for your answer.
SenseiAC (talk) 18:52, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

  1. ^ planethood sur Oxford Dictionaries.
Try again, but write ===References=== with three equal signs, not two. --Barytonesis (talk) 18:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you User:Barytonesis. What is the logics of it? SenseiAC (talk) 19:12, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
@SenseiAC: Headers with two equal signs are only used for language names (and Translingual). Everything else should be a subheader under the language it’s relevant to, with more equal signs. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 01:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@Vorziblix: so there should as many “reference” paragraphs as there are languages for which there are references?? SenseiAC (talk) 13:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes. - 17:28, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
@SenseiAC: As the anonymous editor said, yes: this way it’s clear what languages the references are references for. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 18:11, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you all for the precisions. SenseiAC (talk) 18:45, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

chinese inputEdit

Is a chinese input system available in the searchbox? I'd like to have one similar to that of Microsoft Word, so that the possible characters appear to be selected. --Backinstadiums (talk) 20:18, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

As far as I know, you have to use the one in your browser. —Stephen (Talk) 07:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
It would be a function that is very desirable, I have to admit. Wyang (talk) 07:31, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: Not only there's input for several "exotic" scripts, but the autocomplete function works for them as well, including chinese script itself. Making available double pinyin, which is not possible using keyboard layouts, would improve the user experience greatly. --Backinstadiums (talk) 09:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
@Backinstadiums: If you are using Google Chrome, you can install an extension that allows you to type in a multitude of languages. (If not, you can copy-and-paste from their test page.) —suzukaze (tc) 17:16, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Is this forum the right spot for such a request? --Backinstadiums (talk) 13:41, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

  • FYI you can search in pinyin. For most common words it will go directly to the relevant pinyin entry, which then lists the equivalent entries in hanzi. And for those with no pinyin entry (or multiple pinyin entries), you can scroll through the search results. (Better than nothing.) ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:21, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Emblem of IndiaEdit

I saw some lines over an illustration on this page https://sa.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/मुख्यपृष्ठम्. If you want I can send you the screenshot. Since the illustration is the official Emblem of India it is important that corrections are made.

idiomatic phrasal verbsEdit

Why do we mark certain phrasal verb definitions as idiomatic, see e.g. at run to. Aren't all phrasal verbs idiomatic by definition? 20:17, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, the "idiomatic" thing is kind of pointless. —Rua (mew) 20:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
And not just on phrasal verbs. All our multiword entries have to be idiomatic, otherwise they'd be deleted by dint of being SOP. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:32, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
I mostly remove that gloss when I see it. Often what the person meant was "figurative". Equinox 20:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC)