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poo etymologyEdit

What are you seeing in the OED? I looked up "poo" and it only has P.O.O. (Post Office Order), combining form "-poo" (for cutesy nicknames), and a more recent form of "pooh". I don't see any link to poop. Please cite your OED entry. Equinox 02:04, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Oops, wrong dictionary. Not Oxford or whatever. I meant one of the sources cited by the Online Etymology Dictionary, I was using an unnecessary acronym. [1] May as well check the sources the website cites. [2] Hillcrest98 (talk) 02:08, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


Could add {{Babel}} to your user page? I'd appreciate it. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:17, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Done. Hillcrest98 (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Closing RFV discussionsEdit

Please read the introduction to WT:RFV. There are rules about closing and archiving RFV discussions, and you should be aware of them before closing or removing any discussions there in the future. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:31, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


An entry may only take you 30 seconds to create, but it takes other editors much more time to try to cite it if and eventually delete it if it does not meet our Criteria for Inclusion. Bottom line: as a matter of courtesy, please make sure your new entries meet the policy linked to in the title. Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Having seen hackusation: this is obviously a real word folks are using on the Internet, but it might not meet our criteria yet. You might want to consider using the Citations page to add citations before you create a full page. Anyway, thanks for your work here. Equinox 06:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
I said that to mean that I didn't care if it was deleted, after realizing an RFV-fail ahead. Well, it isn't widespread (only saw it on Counter-Strike, TF2 and 90% of the time Minecraft.) I would honestly RFV-fail it myself after second thoughts. Hillcrest98 (talk) 22:26, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


Your additions were fine, but every root should have a {{PIE root see}} template at the start of the Derived terms section. There is some difficulty though, because this is now a root with two meanings, so the two derivation categories need to be distinguished. This is done by using {{PIE root see|id=die}} for example. The existing category Category:Terms derived from the PIE root *dʰew- and all its subcategories will need to be renamed to include the id (Category:Terms derived from the PIE root *dʰew- (die) versus Category:Terms derived from the PIE root *dʰew- (run)), which is a bit of work. Can you do this? —CodeCat 14:49, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Done. See Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/dʰew- for the work done. Hillcrest98 (talk) 16:34, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! —CodeCat 18:17, 2 January 2016 (UTC)


This was already discussed.

What you alleged is not actually standard practice. Using unmerged pronunciations first is actually what is practiced within Wiktionary. The first pronunciation listed for "caught" is the "caught' pronunciation of "caught", not the "cot" pronunciation of "caught", even though the population of California would make the latter pronunciation "the most common pronunciation".

By the way, this is also done with other languages too, not just English. For instance, with German words where a sound might be silent by the majority of the populace, the word is still transcribed with it first because that is the traditional pronunciation.

Re: "also non-Mary=merry=marry pronunciations don't even seem to be GenAm"

General American is a spectrum of socialectic accents. Whether someone has the merry, Mary, marry merger or not is not impacted by that. Hence, both kinds of pronunciations can be seen in "General American speakers". Tharthan (talk) 17:20, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I see what you're doing, and that could work, however. Hold on one second. There's another way to do that. Tharthan (talk) 17:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I decided to follow the example of the various words that gain flap T's in AmE. Hillcrest98 (talk) 17:34, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I see that, and it would work fine except for the fact that having a / / pronunciation followed by a [ ] pronunciation could be misconstrued as implying that the previous pronunciation is actually realised as the latter, which was not the intent. If you want two separate pronunciations, and include a bracketed pronunciation, they would have to be on separate lines. The only other real alternative is to list as many alternative forms as possible, which I have just done. It doesn't look very tidy, but I can't think of any better way. Perhaps there is some way to make it clear the intention without listing all alternative pronunciations? Give me some time to think it over. I might be able to come up with something.Tharthan (talk) 17:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
It might be even neater to have separate lines pertaining to the merger (as it's a major merger in North American English, but not every speaker participates). Hillcrest98 (talk) 17:40, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
That is actually what is done already with words impacted by the merger, but because "carrot" doesn't end in -y, it is questioned whether the word is only merely impacted by the merry, Mary, marry merger, or if it is just influenced by its presence in a speaker's idiolect. This is actually a fair question, as I have actually met people who pronounce "carrot" and similar words with /æ/ yet pronounce words with -y in a merged fashion. It's a very troublesome issue! Ha ha. Tharthan (talk) 17:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I thought the merger had nothing to do with -y, and instead is about /ɛəɹ/ vs /æɹ/ vs /ɛɹ/. Hillcrest98 (talk) 18:07, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
You're right, it does. But some here have argued that it doesn't apply if the word doesn't end in -y, and I don't want to go rustling their feathers if I can avoid it. Tharthan (talk) 18:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)


Understandable, however

  • The place to dispute housen is on housen
  • Should not be unilaterally removed but tagged with {{rfv}}.

Thank you. Renard Migrant (talk) 00:50, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

falcinellus from falxEdit

Just a doubt, I you don't mind. Is this correct?: from falx derives an adjective falcinus, -a, -um, and then the diminutive falcinellus. Shouldn't the adjective be formed after the diminutive, based on it? Thanks. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:08, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

-ellus might have been used as a sort of funny dump suffix, since the latter half of the 1700s: [3] Hillcrest98 (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

diff for etym at 忍者#JapaneseEdit

"Makes no sense" -- how so? Is the English phrasing difficult to understand? The JA sources I've read generally state that ninja is a more recent term, and that it was popularized by manga and other fiction in the post-WWII period. C.f. ja:w:忍者#呼称. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:48, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Sloppy knee-jerk on my end. Reverting. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 21:55, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
No worries. :) Is the wording clear? I know that what sounds straightforward to one person might sound obtuse to another. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:11, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
It was actually was kind of clear - it was more about the lack of citations for claiming that manga popularized the on'yomi. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 22:18, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
Cheers, thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:19, 12 January 2018 (UTC)


It's interesting that you would choose lie as example. I would choose right as counterexample. The senses righthand and correct are related by a root that means strong (the strong hand, the strength of truth). So I would suspect, without looking it up, that you are wrong, I suppose lie and lie are cognate in the same sense, because I lie down when I feel weak, while lying is a weakness and also, German links and link (left, deceptive) exhibit the same connotation joined in a homophone root. Looking it up though, the case presents itself as more complicated. It might rather be later folk etymology that lead to convergence of the terms. I am in no place to doubt the reconstructed ancient roots. I just think they are phonetically close enough, to reinforce the idea of a semantic link. You are right though, insofar a lie told is not horizontal, and a lie to sleep on is not deceptive. I hope you don't think I'm telling a bedtime story.

Drake on the other hand is a rather obscure, if not archaic word, IMHO. I didn't know it, the link to *h₃reǵ- is interesting, again. Nevertheless, the etymon to Ancient Greek δράκων (drákōn, serpent, giant seafish) is uncertain. Even though, both etymologies at Drake say it's cognate to Drache (Ger. "dragon").

-most and most are a) grammatical particles or whatchamcallit, and b) all the same as far as the suffix *istaz is concerned, and who is to say that the m in the highly contrived looking reconstruction under *-umô is not related to the m in mega? So the conflation is probably not mere coincidence, if that's what you are suggesting. I mean, mega was probably a mega cool word back then, already.

Disclaimer: I'm trying to understand etymologies with my limited information, some common wisdom and a lot of Imagination. I know this is frowned upon here and unscientific, so I should be thankful for backlash when I step out of line.Rhyminreason (talk) 17:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

First, I didn't say that homonymous disparate meanings of a word were never cognate, making your desperate provision of counterexamples moot. Second, even Beekes follows the claim that δράκων (drákōn) comes from *derḱ-. Third, notice that Drache is missing the duck sense entirely, also making your mention of it meaning "dragon" moot. All in all, like @Metaknowledge said, more and more of us are getting sick and tired of your nonsense, like this one you just posted while I was typing this. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 19:43, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
I missed the dialectical meaning of Drache (Drake) entirely. It appears as a metaphor from dragon, indeed.
I thought you picked your examples on purpose. If examples are moot, you shouldn't have mentioned examples to begin with? Rhyminreason (talk) 17:20, 16 February 2018 (UTC)


I notice you have a fondness for collapsing boxes. --Anus Dei (talk) 01:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually I don't use them very often. I've only used them twice, ever. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 04:23, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

富士山#Japanese, etymology in article with suffixEdit

Shouldn't the etymology be in 富士 only? You edited the one that has the suffix (-san). ~ POKéTalker (ŦC) 18:02, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, 富士山 (Fuji-san) is 富士 (Fuji) suffixed with (-san). The etymology of 富士 should go on the 富士 page. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:43, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Also, FWIW, Vovin's theory of (hi, fire) + (nushi, master, lord) doesn't wash at all phonologically. I've run into a separate derivation of 富士 a couple times, pointing to an origin in Ainu フヂ (fuji), referring both to “female ancestors” and “fire; goddess of fire”. C.f. the Huji entry on page 157 of Batchelor's Ainu dictionary, right-most column, about 1/3rd of the way down. This is a near-perfect match phonologically, and makes a lot more sense semantically.
It's been a long time since I read about the Ainu derivation; let me see if I can track down a source (might have been Shibatani's The Languages of Japan). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:51, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: You can add the Ainu theory to the etymology if you want, as long as it's sourced. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 21:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I have now moved it and added the Ainu etymology, with a cite to Batchelor (a short work on place names, not the dictionary). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:47, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Speaking of Fuji, how about the name readings Toshi, Tomio, Tomishi, and Tomiji? ~ POKéTalker (ŦC) 03:27, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


Can you please cite this insead, "Kroonen does not believe that this is related however"? --Victar (talk) 15:00, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@Victar: "Consonant and vowel gradation in the Proto-Germanic n-stems", page 93. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 15:25, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
Great, could I ask that you please cite it on the page than? --Victar (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Suppletive verbsEdit

You have created Category:Greek suppletive verbs, was "Ancient Greek suppletive verbs" intended? Does Modern Greek have such verbs - dictionaries don't seem to recognise the term. Thank you — Saltmarsh. 04:37, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh: Nope, I meant Modern Greek. Suppletion is when, say, a conjugation uses multiple roots unrelated to each other to conjugate the verb. For example, English go vs. past tense went. In the case of Modern Greek, you have λέω (léo), with simple past είπα (eípa), the latter of which clearly derives from a root unrelated to the root of λέω (léo). mellohi! (僕の乖離) 15:51, 26 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your clear short explanation, I should perhaps have concentrated more on the first sentence on Wikipedia's article. — Saltmarsh. 04:44, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
Thank you @Mellohi!, Saltmarsh: I was just wondering, and asked my mentor, Saltmarsh, if he has ever seen the term used in a Modern Greek grammar, (not of its real sense, which is of course correct as Mellohi explains). Greek grammars call them ιδιόκλιτα= self/idiosyncratically inflected. I searched and found the equivalent of suppletion in some greek PhDs: ρηματική υποκατάσταση = verb(al) substitution. I should have searched first, before asking the question. Thanks. sarri.greek (talk) 04:58, 28 July 2018 (UTC)


You moved this to *mōhô citing Kroonen. He's not God for one thing, and could this be merely a typo? Because all the languages have a reflex of *ē, not *ō. And De Vries [4] gives *ē as well. Am I missing something? If not, please put move it back.


I guess that "*kaku" is not correct Proto-Japonic reconstruction. Okinawan 書ちゅん (kachun) is composed from the cognate parts of Mainland Japanese 書き (kaki, conunctive form of 書く kaku) and 居る (woru). Word stem form "*kak-" is more suitable for. Also there is a homonym 欠く (kaku) which has different accent from another root, needs another page; Accent notations might be needed in the page names to distinguish them. My recommanding page names are "kàk-" for 書く・描く・掻く / "kák-" for 欠く (according to the ancient Kyoto accent which assumed to be the origin of the accents of modern dialects).--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 05:43, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I've read elsewhere that the Kyoto pitch accent pattern (notable for often manifesting the opposite high↔low distinction compared to the so-called Tokyo type of "standard" Japanese) is actually not a carryover from ancient times, but actually an innovation. See for instance Shibatani's The Languages of Japan, p. 211, where he references an earlier 1972 publication by Tokugawa explicitly bringing up the possibility that the central Kyoto dialect was actually innovative, not conservative. The geographic distribution illustrated on the Japanese pitch accent Wikipedia page also points towards Kyoto being more innovative.
I am loath for us to impose an accented system on headwords when the scholarly research itself may be unsettled. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:02, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
I said ancient, not modern. The oldest Japanese accent record were made in the late Heian period, named Ruiju Myōgishō (類聚名義抄); Accent patterns published in that were not same as modern Kyoto's and it can make all accent types of the modern dialects (For example, 2-mora nouns distinguised 4 patterns in Modern Kyoto, but 5 patterns in the ancient time). Also Starostin reconstructed the words utterly same as my recommanded, *kàk- and *kák-. Since there were something had genarated this distinction of accent types in the common ancestor (some varieties of Ryukyuan languages share almost same accent distinction types as the mainland's), at least some way which marking the differences is not futile.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 19:48, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
When I first read your earlier comment, I'd misunderstood you to mean that the modern Kyoto accent itself is "ancient" (various earlier works seem to describe the modern Kyoto accent this way). Thank you for clarifying.
Regarding Starostin, I've found his Japonic research to be demonstrably spotty when it comes to etymologies. However, reading through his StarLing pages, my impression is that his Proto-Japanese reconstructions are from Martin's 1987 title The Japanese Language Through Time, and are not Starostin's own work. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:15, 18 January 2019 (UTC)


I'm flattered that you pinged me, but I currently have read literally none of the literature. There are other folks editing Japanese who certainly know more than I do. (;´∀`) —Suzukaze-c 18:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: That was my mistake. Won't do that again, as requested. mellohi! (僕の乖離) 19:16, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Proto-Japonic verbsEdit

Should we change them to their infinitive forms instead of the Japanese dictionary form? (ie. *siru > *siri) like we did for *ari? Kwékwlos (talk) 15:28, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

@Kwékwlos: The thing is with *ari is that its (Old) Japanese dictionary form and its infinitive form are identical. They are both *ari. (It's a characteristic of the "r-irregular verbs".) mellohi! (僕の乖離) 22:46, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
@Mellohi!: What about cases like *seu and *wu? Can they be *si and *wəri instead? Kwékwlos (talk) 22:47, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
(chiming in...) I'm not familiar with *seu as a reconstruction. I've had others suggest that the 未然形 form might be a contraction, with suggestions that the negative -nu may have evolved from an earlier -(a)nu. If so, this might explain why the negative forms senu and sezu in the Man'yōshū, where spelled phonetically, were consistently spelled with 世. (See, for examples, poems 198, 4124, 4245.) This has a Middle Chinese reading of (MC ɕiᴇiH), which might represent a Japanese phonetic spelling of a possible contraction of earlier si + a. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:40, 18 May 2019 (UTC)
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