User talk:ZxxZxxZ

kälämbär, kälämburEdit

Hi, Z. I am looking for an Azerbaijani word found in the Azerbaijani Salmas dialect, given by Ačaṙean as kälämbär, kälämbur and meaning “aspen” or “poplar”. It is a cognate of կաղամախ (kałamax). For Iranian Azerbaijani I have found this dictionary: İsmail Cəfərli Azərbaycan sözlüyü, 2013, which is either an Azeri–Persian dictionary (or an Azeri–Azeri, not sure). I have extracted two pages from it, starting with k and q, which include similar-sounding words. Here: I can't read Persian. Can you look if any of the words there are tree names? qələmbək looks like a tree name. --Vahag (talk) 16:15, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi. It is Azer-Azeri, but also with one-word definitions in Persian for some entries. I found کلنبوُر (kələmbur) (it mentions کلمپور (kələmpur) [transliteration mine] as a by-form) and has translated it into Tilia and نمدار (namdâr), also meaning "Tilia", and the widely used قلمه (qələmə) (also borrowed in Persian), which translates to "poplar". I couldn't find anything similar by googling, except this news page which is talking about smuggling of tress "known as "کلن بر" (kalan/m bar) which are from the family of poplar" in Urmia. --Z 17:47, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to intrude, but what about this? Recep Albayrak Hacaloğlu, Azeri Türkçesi dil kilavuzu [1]? Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 22:18, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
I can't view the relevant sections. How is kelembur defined there? --Vahag (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
It says: => GÖYGALEME. Sorry, I have tried to work it out or to see more but I don't know a single word of Azeri. It could well be something totally unrelated. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 10:18, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Hmmm, that's probably göy (blue) and the qələmə that Z mentioned above. So your discovery was very much relevant, thank you. --Vahag (talk) 11:38, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I only found it because User:ZxxZxxZ gave the word 'kələmbur' above. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 10:20, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. --Vahag (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


Do you know anything about this etymology of this word? DTLHS (talk) 17:41, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I presume it comes from ابری (abri, cloudy). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:08, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it's ابری, I've expanded the corresponding entries. --Z 16:32, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

نویسه‌های بین‌المللیEdit

سلام. شما راهکار بهتری سراغ دارید؟ 4nn1l2 (talk) 16:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
سلام، در نسخه های قدیمی تر گنوم یک اپلت بسیار خوب با نام Character Palette بود که نمی دانم به طور پیشفرض در Unity هست یا نه. یک راه دیگر که خودم استفاده می کنم یک افزونه ای در فایرفاکس است که الان اسمش را حفظ نیستم (و پشت سیستمم هم نیستم). اگر عبارت character map یا از این قبیل را سرچ کنید این یا افزونه هایی از این دست را باید بتوانید پیدا کنید. --Z 16:43, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
افزونهٔ Charavter Pallete را روی فایرفاکس نصب کردم. دو سؤال نویسه‌گردانی: ۱) کی از i و کی از ê استفاده کنیم؟ ۲) لطفاً عرض و ارض را نویسه‌گردانی کنید. چند مثال را بررسی کردم گیج‌تر شدم (مثلاً علم). لطفاً اگر وقت کردید WT:FA TR را کمی گسترش دهید که از باقیات صالحات است. 4nn1l2 (talk) 17:40, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
متأسفانه هیچ قانون سفت‌وسختی برای نویسه‌گردانی فارسی نداریم. فارسی یک وضعیت منحصربفردی دارد و هر سیستمی که انتخاب کنیم ایرادهای مهمی دارد. استفاده از چند سیستم همزمان مدنظرم بود که همیشه کار جالبی نیست، من خودم در برخی مدخل‌ها از مجبوری این کار را می‌کنم، گاه هم بسته به نوع کلمه هرجا یکجور نویسه‌گردانی می‌کنم. وضعیت فعلی در ویکشنری اینست که اساس نویسه‌گردانی ما تلفظ فارسی ایران است. اما برخی مدخل‌های فارسی بیشتر از لحاظ ریشه‌شناسی اهمیت دارند. مثلاً در مدخل kofta اگر واژهٔ فارسی را kufte برگردانیم فقط خوانندگان را (که ۹۹درصدشان چیزی از فارسی و تحولات آوایی آن نمی‌دانند) گیج کرده‌ایم. یا مثلاً واژهٔ پولاد که صورت قدیمی دارای اُی کشیدهٔ آن در زبان‌های مختلفی حفظ شده است، در این موارد نویسه‌گردانی بر پایهٔ تلفظ قدیمی اهمیت می‌یابد. توصیه شخصی من اینست که هرجا نمی‌دانید چه کنید طبق فارسی ایران برگردانید: مثلاً ی را همیشه به i برگردانید. برای عین هم همیشه از ' استفاده کنید: 'arz برای عرض و arz برای ارض. --Z 20:30, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


...for etymological help in Hindi! —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 20:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

No problem! --Z 23:09, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
If you have time, could you figure out the etymology at दिल्ली अभी दूर है (dillī abhī dūr hai)? I've written the Persian transliteration already. Thanks! —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
  DoneΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:34, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 02:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


Hi Z,

Is the etymology section at giaour correct? Do you mind expanding گور to add that sense? i want to make a Russian entry for гяу́р (gjaúr), probably from the Persian. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:47, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Hi, I expanded the Persian entry. For the Ottoman Turkish word, I only found كاور (also can be spelled as گاور) in this dictionary as translation of "infidel", but I'm not sure how it is transliterated and pronounced (Dijan can probably help). By the way, the Persian by-form گور (gavr) is pronounced with a palatalized g, maybe those "gj"/"gi"s are reflections of this phone. --Z 10:32, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:55, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
There is also the Old Anatolian Turkish form قاور (ḳavur, enemy) (see Yaşar Çağbayır, Ötüken Türkçe Sözlük, vol III, J–Müt, 2007, page 2486), which looks like a hybrid between Persian گور (gavr) and Arabic كَافِر (kāfir). --Vahag (talk) 11:30, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Strange transliteration of Old Anatolian Turkish, IMHO. We should probably use "q" for "ق", although the WP link uses "k" for both "ق" and "ك" (as in the resulting modern Turkish spellings). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:40, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
It's the ALA-LC system. We don't have to agree on a system now. No one is doing Ottoman Turkish seriously on Wiktionary. We even don't know if Old Anatolian Turkish should be treated under Ottoman Turkish or as a separate language. --Vahag (talk) 12:05, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't if this is relevant since I don't know about Old Anatolian Turkish and if ق () was pronounced identically as ك (k), but that word reminds me of a practice in earlier forms of New Persian, that is, writing particular letters in their Arabized form, even though they are not Arabic and/or not pronounced in their Arabic form, a notable case being Persian Petros, written as پطرس (Peṭros) (in Arabic, بطرس), written with Arabic ط (), or Persian bâtri (French), written as باطری (bâṭri). I have seen this practice in Ottoman Turkish for European borrowings. However this is not the case (for Persian) for ق (q), since it is not pronounced like ک (k) in Persian. --Z 12:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)


Can you find the passage in Rudaki where لسپردرک (laspardarak) is attested and add the Perso-Arabic script to the quotation? --Vahag (talk) 21:11, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

It is recorded as بسبیدرک in sources (it is spelled as "به سبیدرک", "به سپیدرگ" etc. if you search it on the web, which is based on the modern Persian spelling). --Z 19:03, 9 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. --Vahag (talk) 19:13, 9 March 2016 (UTC)


Do you have any good literature/online sources on Proto-Iranian/Proto-Indo-Iranian? I've been using Introduction to Avestan (published by Brill) to add some new words, and wonder if there's more extensive lists (it only lists ~100 or so Indo-Iranian words). —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 23:21, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

No, unfortunately I don't know any source which list PI or PII in particular. --Z 19:03, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
@Aryamanarora Not sure if you're still looking, but aside from Cheung and Asatrian from the Leiden series which I'm guessing you know about, there's ru:w:Этимологический_словарь_иранских_языков (in Russian). So far only five tomes have been published (from 'a' to 'n'), and the first four are easy to find online. Crom daba (talk) 18:49, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
@Crom daba Thanks! I've kind of abandoned Wiktionary as of late; maybe I'll come back... —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 21:31, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Can you read this Persian script?Edit

Hello. Maybe you could help us with Wiktionary:Translation_requests#Puzzle_Museum_-_unidentified_scripts...? Equinox 00:32, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I left a note there. --Z 19:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

A translation requestEdit

Hiya Z,

Could you add a Farsi translation for groin, please? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

'See also' sectionsEdit

Hello, what has been going on with the Persian 'see also' sections? They seem to have some really bizarre additions. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 14:54, 9 February 2017 (UTC) For example, پنجم 'see also' تنجم? Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 14:59, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Hi, it is being discussed in User_talk:Isomorphyc#Addition_of_also_template_by_OrphicBot --Z 21:39, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Persian dictionary with vocalisationsEdit

Hi Z, is there and online dictionary that shows those optional accents for Persian? Thanks! — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 09:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Dehkhoda Dictionary does, e.g. [2] فرهنگ (farhang), the vocalization appears right after the word, in brackets: [ ف َ ه َ ], which means there are two fatheh (a) after f and h and every other letter is eighter saken or does not need further vocalization for disambiguation, such as when it is followed by ی yeh, و vav or ا alef. --Z 13:57, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Improvements to Module:fa-translitEdit

ZxxZxxZ, @Atitarev, I am making HUGE improvements to this module. I'm so proud I can finally spend my life in Wiktionary doing something productive! Further improvements will be made on the way — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 04:22, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos I would fix the failed test cases first, they are all legit. There is no agreement on whether Persian entries should have vocalisations. In my opinion, they can and they should. Wiktionary can have this policy for Persian, Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, etc. On the other hand, it can't be as strict as Arabic, it's not the common practice to add sukun and add short vowels in front of the long vowels, if the long vowels have default pronunciations - as long vowels. Fully vocalised terms should work as well. Ambiguous cases should return NIL but with relaxed vocalisations, there will be more ambiguity. Policies for Persian transliterations should be decided in a broader discussion. So far, the community has been chilly on consistent Persian vocalisations and automatic transliterations. Manual transliterations will cover odd cases. To complete this work, you would need some dedication. I'm not sure you got it, considering your pattern of edits, no offence meant. However, no one works on this module, you can play for a while. @Benwing2, Wikitiki89. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev, yes, it is just for testing only. Just doing it for your convenience, after vocalisations have been put into place. My next project is to create an IPA! — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 07:04, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh, wait. There are points to consider. Firstly, Persian language is never ever written fully vocalized, even in dictionaries. Even ezafe, which is technically a word, may be written only in rare cases. And I think it is a bad idea to show it with vocalizations in a dictionary as it would alter the shape of the word, it is important that the reader see and memorize the shape of the word here the way it actually appears elsewhere. Secondly, the rules of vocalization in Arabic do not apply to Persian. For example, a native speaker of modern Persian would read مِی as mey, while according to the rules of vocalization of Arabic, it should be read as . --Z 09:02, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm aware that it's used far less commonly. Nevertheless, the exact pronunciation can be rendered in Persian as well, as it's used, eg in Wikipedia. The exact shape is in the entry's title. As a dictionary editor, we can create this new or seldomly used option. The rules for Farsi don't have to match Arabic. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:16, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Ok, I would vote neutral in case of "moderate" vocalization of Persian in the headwords, but lets ask what other contributors of Persian think about this. --Z 09:29, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, let's start the discussion. BTW, it's not normal to use stress marks on Russian words or use ruby (furigana) with Japanese words but it's a choice dictionary editors could make. Vocalisation is also occasionally adopted by other languages using Arabic script, such as Urdu. It's very optional but useful for foreigners. Useful Persian online dictionaries are not common, unfortunately. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:35, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
With the letter ه, it seems to be silent at the end of a word. But are there any exceptions? Please tell me, because I'm going to improve the module! — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 00:28, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
It's silent after consonants in the final positions but has a vowel "e" in front of it. If fully vocalised, the previous consonant should have a kasre (zir) on it. It is to be decided, if such positions should have a manadatory kasre or to be assumed "e" with a silent "ه". Also, how to transliterate such words without an explicit kasre. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:26, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for that. There is one letter which is transliterated as 'eye'. However, it seems to be a static final form. Later, the actual dynamic letter ۀ is seen again, but transliterated as '-ye'. What's the purpose of ? — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 05:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
I think we only need to worry about ۀ, as in اِیالاتِ مُتَّحِدِۀ آمریکا (eyâlât-e mottahede-ye âmrikâ) or کُرِۀ شُمالی (kore-ye šomâli). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Could you translate this snippet for me?Edit

It's from Gharib's dictionary of Sogdian:

Crom daba (talk) 17:17, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

The text is کلبه. دکانک. (واحد زمان معادل 20 ثانیه). The first two words are archaic equivalents of "store, shop". The text in paranteses says "unit of time equivalent to 20 seconds". There may be a mistake. It also mentions Middle Persian kurbag, which is the word from which کلبه (kolbe, hut; (archaic) store, shop) is probably derived. --Z 18:59, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Thank you so much. I was hoping the Farsi text would clear up the unit of time thing but whatever the mistake was it was obviously propagated into both languages. Crom daba (talk) 23:08, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
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