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Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/June

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discussion rooms: Tea roomEtym. scr.Info deskBeer parlourGrease pit ← May 2018 · June 2018 · July 2018 → · (current)

Language links in Regionalisms categoriesEdit

I've gone on a bit of a regionalisms bender with Bavarian, Alemannic and Cimbrian. And I noticed that the words in the "Regionalisms" categories don't link to their respective languages. Is there a way to fix this? (btw, it's not a recent module edit thing; Category:American English does the same thing). – Julia (talk• formerly Gormflaith • 16:42, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

You can add {{catfix|language code}} to the category pages. DTLHS (talk) 17:09, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll go around doing that. – Julia (talk• formerly Gormflaith • 18:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I added the template to {{dialectboiler}} as well, though a lot of regionalisms pages don't use it. – Julia (talk• formerly Gormflaith • 18:44, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Why doesn't {{der}} with Old Iranian show the lemma?Edit

{{der|en|ira-old||*Sanatrūk}}Old Iranian

What's going on? Benwing2 (talk) 23:57, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Fixed it, I think. Changed the parent from "ira" to "ira-pro". – Julia (talk• formerly Gormflaith • 02:27, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Old Iranian is not a full language and its parent is not a full language, therefore it can't have entries, therefore the module is removing the text. Is my guess. DTLHS (talk) 04:25, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia: I undid your "fix". Those etymology-only codes shouldn't be used for lemma -- Old Iranian and Middle Iranian are developmental periods of the language family, not actual languages.
@Benwing2, what you're probably looking for is Proto-Iranian ira-pro, but looking at *Sanatruk, I would say it's pretty outdated and most certainly incorrect. --Victar (talk) 04:35, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@Victar I don't understand why you undid the fix. Julia set the parent to "ira-pro", which is a real language, not an etymology-only language. The current state where the parent is a family is totally broken. Please put her fix back or fix it properly, thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 05:22, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2:, as I said, ira-old is a developmental period of the language family, and not an actual language, and as such should never be used for lemma, so using ira, the language family, is the correct parent code, not ira-pro. --Victar (talk) 05:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
We tend to use ira-old to mean "from some unknown archaic Iranian language". If we have enough phonological information to reconstruct it, it should either be assigned to a particular language or to Proto-Iranian. ira-old exists separately precisely because we don't know enough about the word's phonological shape. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 05:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@Victar Okay, I get that Old Iranian doesn’t have lemmas. Though I do think that the information is useful, given that it’s correct (what did you mean by “it” in “it’s pretty outdated...”? Old Iranian reconstructions in general?) – Julia (talk) • formerly Gormflaith • 13:56, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia: I was referring to the form given, which doesn't not conform to Proto-Iranian. In the entry in question, Սանատրուկ (Sanatruk), the {{m|und||*Sanatruk}} should be removed completely. --Victar (talk) 14:49, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
I'm with Victar on this, that is not a good Proto-Iranian reconstruction, and Old Iranian ≠ Proto-Iranian. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 01:45, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
@Victar, AryamanA Just to be clear: what's the best way to go about Old and Middle Iranian reconstructions – {{der|en|ira-old}} {{m|und|foo}}? – Julia (talk) • formerly Gormflaith • 02:32, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia: no, like JohnC5 said, if it can't be properly reconstructed in Proto-Iranian or some PIr descendent, it should just plainly say from Old Iranian and nothing more. --Victar (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2018 (UTC).
@Victar: Okay. There are quite a few etymologies using that method, just wondering. – Julia (talk) • formerly Gormflaith • 02:48, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Cheers. --Victar (talk) 03:34, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

senseid produces a bullet point in UniatEdit

Why does the senseid in the etymology of Uniat produce a bullet point? It looks ugly, because it is further left than the rest of the test (including the rest of the bullet points) on the page. - -sche (discuss) 20:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that's because it's supposed to be used behind #, otherwise it bugs.[1] --Per utramque cavernam 20:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
  1. ^ "to bug" = "to malfunction". Does it exist?

RfC: Plans to graduate the New Filters on Watchlist out of betaEdit

Collaboration team is announcing plans to graduate the New Filters for Edit Review out of beta on Watchlist by late June or early July. After launch, this suite of improved edit-search tools will be standard on all wikis. Individuals who prefer the existing Watchlist interface will be able to opt out by means of a new preference.

The New Filters introduce an easier yet more powerful user interface to Watchlist as well as a whole list of filters and other tools that make reviewing edits more efficient, including live page updating, user-defined highlighting,the ability to create special-purpose filter sets and save them for re-use and (on wikis with ORES enabled) predictive filters powered by machine learning. If you’re not familiar with the New Filters, please give them a try on Watchlist by activating the New Filters beta feature. In particular, it would be very helpful if you can test the new functionality with your local gadgets and configurations. The documentation pages provide guidance on how to use the many new tools you’ll discover.

Over 70,000 people have activated the New Filters beta, which has been in testing on Watchlist for more than eight months. We feel confident that the features are stable and effective, but if you have thoughts about these tools or the beta graduation, please let us know on the project talk page. In particular, tell us if you know of a special incompatibility or other issue that makes the New Filters problematic on your wiki. We’ll examine the blocker and may delay release on your wiki until the issue can be addressed. - -Kaartic (talk) 17:03, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Edit requestsEdit

I posted edit requests at

They have been ignored so far. Is this the right place to draw attention to these requests? —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:35, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I really doubt if anyone is watching such old pages. Perhaps you should have posted the edit requests at the current talk pages of those pages, "Wiktionary talk:Tea room" and "Wiktionary talk:Word of the day". — SGconlaw (talk) 02:48, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Also, why not just correct the errors yourself? — SGconlaw (talk) 02:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
The pages are (/were) protected, although I'm not entirely sure why. Probably you and I and a few other users could put them on our watchlists (to be able to spot any vandalism of them) and then unprotect them. (I've unprotected them now.) And @ Anomalocaris, yes, people don't necessarily watch the talk pages of such old pages, but this is a fine place to draw attention to such requests. - -sche (discuss) 02:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
When I checked, "Wiktionary:Word of the day/Nominations/Archive 2011" wasn't protected. Maybe you got to it before I looked. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── -sche: Would you please unprotect Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2006/September and Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2006/April so I can remove the lint (while carefully preserving appearance, of course) from those as well? —Anomalocaris (talk) 15:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

  Done. — SGconlaw (talk) 15:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
SGconlaw: Thanks! Edits on these two items are complete. There are two remaining items with Multiple unclosed formatting tags. One is a protected user talk page and I've already asked its owner to fix it or unprotect it so I can fix it. The other is Module:User:Suzukaze-c/zh-pron/documentation, and I know how to edit Wikitext, but not this. So I leave that final one to greater minds. —Anomalocaris (talk) 15:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c, can you assist? — SGconlaw (talk) 15:59, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
@Anomalocaris Connel is not around anymore, I unprotected his talk page. Let me know when you are done and I'll re-protect it. - TheDaveRoss 16:13, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
TheDaveRoss:   Done. Feel free to re-protect User talk:Connel MacKenzie/archive-2006-08 and the two Beer parlours as well. —Anomalocaris (talk) 16:22, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation of scourEdit

I'm having trouble getting {{IPA}} to correctly indicate the number of syllables in the word scour. As far as I'm aware, the pronunciations are as follows:

However, I am getting a three-syllable count somewhere. It may be that I am not using the correct IPA symbols to indicate diphthongs. (Pinging @Erutuon in case you can help.) — SGconlaw (talk) 17:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: Yes, it was the wrong symbols. /ou/ is not a symbol in Appendix:English pronunciation, and the GA pronunciation is similar to the RP one. — Eru·tuon 18:29, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Thanks! — SGconlaw (talk) 20:19, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Template Q misnested tagsEdit

Please see the discussion at Template talk:Q#Misnested tags and discuss it there, not here. Reply here if you think this is the wrong place to even mention that discussion. —Anomalocaris (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

  Done The problem is fixed now! —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Column templatesEdit

Does Wiktionary have a template comparable to Wikipedia:Template:div col? Please compare Wikipedia:User:Anomalocaris/sandbox/Lint Test to Appendix:Colours/Alphabetical listing#A and you see a clean solution to three problems:

  1. fostered content lint errors
  2. Bombastic code that is difficult to maintain if items are added, because the editor rather than the computer has to determine column breaks
  3. Inflexible display that may not display well on small screens or for users who require unexpectedly high magnifications

This will not work here because we don't have Template:div col, but do we have something else that works the same way? If not, consider this a request for it. —Anomalocaris (talk) 06:40, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Anybody home? —Anomalocaris (talk) 05:56, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Module:columns, used for example in Template:der3. DTLHS (talk) 06:00, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
DTLHS: Module:columns says, "This module ... should not be used directly in entries, but in templates such as {{der2}} or {{der3}}..." So, I'm not supposed to use it directly. As for {{der4}}, it automatically hides the body, which is not desired here. —Anomalocaris (talk) 08:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
What about {{top3}} et al? Chuck Entz (talk) 08:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

English verbs with redlinks on their headword linesEdit

Could the template/module be made to automatically put these into a category similar to Category:German terms with red links in their inflection tables, without that using too much memory, so they can be found and created, potentially en masse by bot? Examples: Floridize (because Floridized, Floridizing etc have not been created as of this writing), Gallicize, Hispanize, Japanize. - -sche (discuss) 06:01, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

@DTLHS I thought that NadandoBot generated inflected forms from header templates. - TheDaveRoss 01:07, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Definitely not, I really only generate Spanish and Catalan forms. DTLHS (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Script to fix up cognates to use {{cog|...}}Edit

I wrote a little script to fix up cases like this:

From {{etyl|de|sh}} {{m|de|Spage}}, from {{etyl|it|sh}} {{m|it|spago}}. Compare Albanian {{m|sq|spango}}.

to instead read:

From {{etyl|de|sh}} {{m|de|Spage}}, from {{etyl|it|sh}} {{m|it|spago}}. Compare {{cog|sq|spango}}.

I want to make sure people are OK with this change. Basically, it looks for a punctuation mark followed by "[Cc]ognate with" or "[Cc]ompare (to)" followed by either "LANGNAME {{m|CODE|...}}" (where LANGNAME is the canonical name of the language whose code is CODE) or "{{etyl|CODE|-}} {{m|CODE|...}}" (where the two codes match). It correctly handles sequences of cognates, e.g.:

From {{inh|ru|orv|рудъ}}, from {{inh|ru|sla-pro|*rudъ}}, ultimately from {{etyl|ine-pro|ru}} {{m|ine-pro|*h₁rewdʰ-}}. Compare to Ukrainian {{m|uk|руди́й}}, Czech {{m|cs|rudý}}, Polish {{m|pl|rudy}}.

It only does these changes in Etymology sections. Eventually I'd like to run it for all pages that contain {{m}}, although that will take awhile. Comments? Benwing2 (talk) 23:58, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good; I'd like to not have to do this manually. Could you add "[Cc]ognates include" and "[Cc]ognate of" as well? – Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 01:10, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Also: "[Cc]ompare with", and "the" before LANGNAME (e.g. Cognate with the Latin verbum). – Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 01:40, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia Implemented, thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Replacing {{etyl}} with {{der}}?Edit

On a related note, perhaps markup like "{{etyl|de|sh}} {{m|de|Spage}}" could be replaced with "{{der|sh|de|Spage}}"? However, there should not be any replacement if there is text between {{etyl}} and {{m}}. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:04, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

This is not correct; any of {{der}}, {{inh}} or {{bor}} might be correct depending on the situation. However, it may be possible to do bot replacement of strings of "From X, from Y, from Z, ...", like this:
From {{etyl|enm|en}} {{m|enm|adweschen}}, from {{etyl|ang|en}} {{m|ang|ādwǣscan||to extinguish, quench, put out, put an end to, put down, suppress, staunch, blot out, appease, destroy}}, from {{etyl|gem-pro|en}} {{m|gem-pro|*uz-||out}} + {{etyl|gem-pro|en}} {{m|gem-pro|*dwaiskijaną||to suffocate}}, from {{etyl|ine-pro|en}} {{m|ine-pro|*dʰew-||to dwindle, die}}. Compare {{l|en|adush}}, {{l|en|dush}}.
I would use the following logic:
  1. The first in the series gets replaced with {{inh}} (if the source language code is a parent), and {{bor}} if not.
  2. Further entries get replaced with {{inh}} (if and only if the source language code is a parent and all preceding entries are {{inh}}), else {{der}}.
  3. As an exception, if the source word ends in a hyphen and the lemma doesn't, always use {{der}}. This should catch cases like the above where a PIE root is used as a source.
  4. As another exception, if an entry in the series is directly followed by a +, stop and don't proceed any further (or use {{der}} for the entries on both sides of the +). This should catch cases like the above where a compound is given in the etymology.
Benwing2 (talk) 03:15, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
Just pointing out: this would be problematic for languages that borrow from parents, particularly those descended from Latin or Sanskrit. I think for this sequence only 100% certainties would be replacing everything after the first in the series with {{der}} iff the first is not a parent. – Julia • formerly Gormflaith • 03:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia That is a good point. I was thinking in terms of Russian and English where this situation rarely (if ever?) occurs. Benwing2 (talk) 03:43, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
It's rare, but it does happen in English (in Russian, I only spot one word). - -sche (discuss) 08:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@Julia, Benwing2: User:Erutuon/scripts/cleanup.js (lines 752 et sqq.) already does both of these (adding {{cog}}, and convert {{etyl}} to {{der}}). It doesn't go as far as deciding between {{inh}} and {{bor}} though. Per utramque cavernam 07:57, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam This script has various issues, e.g. it doesn't properly check that the language name and code match (and it won't handle many common intro words like "Cognate with" or lowercase "cognate with" after a paren, etc.). And the other script just blindly converts {{etyl}} to {{der}}, which is wrong, and again doesn't check that the language codes match in the two parts of the {{etyl}}/{{m}} sequence. These problems may be acceptable in an interactive script but definitely not in a batch script. Benwing2 (talk) 10:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Reasons for redactions and rejectionsEdit

I have been suggesting via attempted "corrections", a host of past and present participles that are legitimately useful and used as adjectives and nouns, but have received no reaction thereto. I have also suggested specific words, such as the noun "verga" which is a word commonly used in USA weather reports, meaning rain that evaporates before reaching the earth, and the noun "peek", meaning a quick often surreptitious look at someone or something. Except for "verga", which was apparently redacted or rejected, without explanation, my other suggestions seem to be ignored completely. Can anyone suggest a way I can qualify as a contributor and have any of my suggestions considered favorably? I was advised to add a message to the bottom of the list of redacted and rejected words, but could find no place to do so! I would appreciate any help and helper I can find.

Scott MacStravic (*Scottmacstra")

@Scottmacstra: The word is virga, not **verga. Per utramque cavernam 18:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@Scottmacstra thanks for your interest in contributing to Wiktionary. I would suggest that you review the links that were left on your talk page by Koavf, there are some helpful tips on how we format entries here and other practices and policies. If you take a look at a this change which you made, you accidentally replaced the content instead of adding to it, which is why that one got undone. If you would like some help in getting used to how editing here works please let me know, you can reach out to me on my talk page and I would be happy to help with further links or by checking out edits you make and suggesting what you might want to do differently going forward. Again, thanks for your interest in helping out around here. - TheDaveRoss 18:45, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Update on page issues on mobile webEdit

CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 20:58, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Are the accelerator creation rules still being updated?Edit

I currently have an addition for it, and until it is added, accelerator is downright broken on all Finnish entries. I am asking because the page has not been updated in a while and there seems to be multiple requests on the talk page. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 00:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Added your request. DTLHS (talk) 00:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

My common.jsEdit

My common.js script literally doesn't do anything anymore, since at least about a week ago. Does anyone happen to know why this might be happening? PseudoSkull (talk) 14:52, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Are there any error messages in your browser console? DTLHS (talk) 16:01, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Quotation marks and the Arabic transliterationEdit

This works:

الْعَبَادِي يَبْحَثُ الْحَرْبَ عَلَى الْإِرْهَابِ مَعَ مَلِكِ الْأُرْدُنِّ.‎
al-ʿabādī yabḥaṯu l-ḥarba ʿalā l-ʾirhābi maʿa maliki l-ʾurdunni.
Al-Abadi discusses the "war on terror" with the King of Jordan.

But this doesn't:

الْعَبَادِي يَبْحَثُ "الْحَرْبَ عَلَى الْإِرْهَابِ" مَعَ مَلِكِ الْأُرْدُنِّ.‎
al-ʿabādī yabḥaṯu "al-ḥarba ʿalā l-ʾirhābi" maʿa maliki l-ʾurdunni.
Al-Abadi discusses the "war on terror" with the King of Jordan.

The only difference is quotation marks in the Arabic text. @Benwing2, Wikitiki89: Can something be done to make it work with double-quotes? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:39, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

@Atitarev OK, I understand how to fix this but don't have time right now, I'll do it later. Benwing2 (talk) 15:32, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev Should be fixed now. Benwing2 (talk) 02:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Thank you! The example is used here: بَحَثَ (baḥaṯa). It's the title of this old article here. Someone kindly provided the audio on YouTube (v=pJblBiAojtc).--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:09, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

The word "hover" as a noun vs. verbEdit

I noted two requests for examples of the poetic use of the word "hover" as a noun, though I recall another example in the poem by Archibald McLeish called "The End of the World", in which he mentions: "...and there in the starless dark, the poise the hover, of vast wings across the cancelled skies...."

Template:categoryTOC-Armenian-TAO misnested tagsEdit

There is a discussion at Template talk:categoryTOC-Armenian-TAO#misnested tags about Template:categoryTOC-Armenian-TAO generating 76 misnested tags of <span>. Please contribute to that discussion there, not here. —Anomalocaris (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Unicode right-to-left mark between diacritics in Arabic translation at YugoslavianEdit

One of the Arabic translations at Yugoslavian is يُوجُوسْلَافِيّ‏َة, which includes (near the end) a sequence consisting of the letter for /y/ (yeh), a gemination mark (shadda), a Unicode right-to-left mark (U+200F), and the diacritic for /a/ (fatha); so, something like /yy←a/, instead of /yya/. Does anyone know why the right-to-left mark is there? Should it be removed? —RuakhTALK 03:58, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

@Ruakh: I think so, because a right-to-left mark can only be useful at the beginning or end of a run of right-to-left text, as one end of a right-to-left sandwich that contains characters that would otherwise render as left-to-right. — Eru·tuon 04:21, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@Erutuon: User:Ruakh refers to the POSITION of the symbol (U+200F) (left-to-right). It's in the middle of the word between fatḥa and šadda, not at the end of the word. (BTW, Arabic ي is called yāʾ and ye is the Persian name for letter ی.) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:51, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: Perhaps I should have been clearer – I meant it should be removed. — Eru·tuon 06:05, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
@Ruakh, Erutuon: Removed and saved as يُوجُوسْلَافِيَّة‎ f (yūgoslāviyya). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:50, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
OK, thanks! —RuakhTALK 07:04, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Hittite cognatesEdit

Can anyone tell me how I can pull out all Wiktionary entries which include Hittite cognates in their etymologies, please? —This unsigned comment was added by Rdurkan (talkcontribs).

@Rdurkan: This search should help. It might not find cognates that are not "standardly" formatted though. —Suzukaze-c 19:39, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c, I'm curious, why doesn't this work? --Victar (talk) 20:06, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
That is a curious bug (unless there are no {{l}}-links to ira-pro terms?), considering that the same search with "m" instead of "l" works. - -sche (discuss) 00:49, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
There are none. Try it with other codes. I confirmed that it's working with a test edit. DTLHS (talk) 00:52, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

hide/show don't work local projectEdit

Hello. I install MediaWiki 1.31.0 on local. After that I create MediaWiki:Common.css and MediaWiki:Common.js, and Azerbaijani declension-table templates. My problem with hide/show function. When I edit Declension section I can see show/hide button, but after save or show preview when edit all page I can't see buttons like this. What can I do?

Note: When I delete MediaWiki:Common.css and MediaWiki:Common.js, table is working but not collapsible. --Drabdullayev17 (talk) 14:02, 20 June 2018 (UTC)