Wiktionary:Grease pit

Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit


January 2016

Template:fr-conj-auto failuresEdit

Fails on fuir, luire. Hillcrest98 (talk) 16:50, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

@Kc kennylau Can you take a look at this? Benwing2 (talk) 01:47, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
@Hillcrest98, Benwing2: Sure. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 17:50, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


Could we have one last push on this, please? Everything I've tried so far with it has worked except you can't specify a second plural or a feminine (specific example: cheval and ioueur will no longer work). If we can fix this, it's ready to go AFAICT. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:23, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

I just tested this and it looks like you can specify a second plural. Can you provide a test example where you get the problem? And I'll fix the issue with the second feminine. Benwing2 (talk) 02:01, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I misread what you said; I see now you meant the feminine didn't work. Fixed, along with problems with the feminine plural and some other bugs. Benwing2 (talk) 02:24, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Lua help: "Chunk has too many syntax levels"Edit

Please see Module:ne-conj. The code at the moment is functioning. However, if I replace it with the code in Module talk:ne-conj and preview Template:ne-conj, it will return "chunk has too many syntax levels". Please help! Thanks. Wyang (talk) 04:34, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The very first result from Google saying Too many operations (e.g. Doing 500 concatenations in a single expression) is applicable.--Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 06:27, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, solved (embarrassingly). Wyang (talk) 06:38, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

(??? please provide Mongolian spelling!) in Mongolian entriesEdit

Can a good Samaritan please remove these message from Mongolian headword templates, like {{mn-noun}}, etc.? Please make it optional.

  1. It doesn't look nice.
  2. Cyrillic and traditional Mongolian don't always match. Inner Mongolian and Outer Mongolian dialects have big differences.
  3. We don't have active editors or available online resources to provide this info.

FYI, @DerekWinters. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:18, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

The idea is that any reader who comes across it and happens to know the Mongolian spelling can add it in. So in my opinion, unless there you are sure that the Mongolian spelling does not exist, the ??? should be left there. For cases in which you are indeed sure that the Mongolian spelling does not exist, we can provide an override. But again, this is only my opinion. --WikiTiki89 15:48, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I understand the idea but shouting messages have always been frowned upon and were removed from Russian headwords and others. There are much more matches (and resources) between Hindi and Urdu spellings, let alone Serbo-Croatian (Cyrillic and Roman spelling) but the entries don't demand any input from users or editors - the other spelling is and should be optional. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:12, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
They're not demanding input, they are politely asking for it. For Russian, it is less important, specifically because we have more editors and resources. For Mongolian, we have to rely on the chance that a reader who happens to know will see the request and contribute. In other words, without this request, there really is no hope. --WikiTiki89 22:24, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Anatoli here — many Mongolian learners will not have any familiarity with this script anyway, and providing it should not be among our primary goals with Mongolian entries. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
I am all for adding the traditional Mongolian spellings but we don't even have enough working examples, let alone reliable data. I think we'll be able to upload it in one go when we have it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
It is shouting and demanding and adds correct entries into Category:Mongolian terms needing attention. E.g. бүлэг ‎(büleg) is a correct minimal entry. The editor doesn't need to know the Mongolian traditional script in order to create a Mongolian Cyrillic entry. It puts unnecessary stress to editors (have I done something wrong?) and discourages them, like any mandatory parameters (which are often justified). Besides, it's not visually appealing. I think I won't convince you, so maybe this thing is a matter of a vote or a minivote. There's no proof that these visual requests will add editors input. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:25, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
After seeing that there is an exclamation point and an attention tag (with the red "!!", if you have that enabled), I will agree that it does seem to be demanding. But those can be removed, and it can be made to look much calmer. However, I am not steadfast against removing the request entirely. If you have considered all my arguments and still disagree, that is ok with me. Does this revision look better? --WikiTiki89 00:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
For some reason I can't see the change. буга ‎(buga) has the traditional Mongolian spelling ᠪᠣᠭᠣ but I am not able to add it using m=. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
It's supposed to be added like this (not exactly the best design, but it wasn't me who designed it). Do you still not see the change? You can at least see it at the {{mn-noun}} template itself (which is the only template I changed). --WikiTiki89 19:34, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Thanks, I see. My opinion stands. No other language headword demands (asks) for alternative scripts in the headwords. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. --WikiTiki89 22:33, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:51, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, was on vacation for a while and just got back. We do have the resources to provide the Mongolian script. www.bolor-toli.com has all the Cyrillic to Mongolian script conversions. I've verified as many as I can and they seem reliable. The Mongolian script uses spellings that more match Classical Mongolian phonology, while the Cyrillic script uses spellings that more match modern Mongolian phonology. DerekWinters (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Modern inner Mongolian words may have different etymologies, even if the words are related. So Хятад ‎(Hjatad) and ᠬᠢᠲᠠᠳ ‎(Kitad) have different pronunciations. Outer Mongolians will render the outer Mongolian cognate as Китад ‎(Kitad), the word not used in Mongolia (the reverse can also be true). A number of traditional Mongolian letters don't even have mappings in Cyrillic and Cyrillic letter pairs may be rendered with the same letter in traditional Mongolian, which is less phonetic. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:23, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Is it right to say that улс ‎(uls) is ᠤᠯᠤᠰ ‎(ulus), which "ulus", not "uls" as in outer Mongolian? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I honestly have no clue. DerekWinters (talk) 04:27, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


Can this template be improved, so that two fields have to be entered? For example at instalment "trans-see|instalment|installment" - otherwise it appears as "installment - see installment" which is illogical and aggravating, I think. Donnanz (talk) 13:50, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Two fields can already be entered. But the idea is that "if you mean 'installment', then see the translations at 'installment'", so it is perfectly logical that they are the same. --WikiTiki89 15:51, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
The spellings aren't the same, that's what I'm on about - it can look rather silly. I realise that one can already enter two fields, but a lot of editors have neglected to do this, all except me it seems. After I wrote the above I came across usage in translation tables where there's more than one sense, where two fields are not necessary, so I suppose my idea is dead in the water. At least I have highlighted the problem. Donnanz (talk) 18:13, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I disagree that there is a problem. I think that "installment - see installment" is the right thing to say and that "instalment - see installment" is wrong. --WikiTiki89 18:29, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, I disagree with you, and there was absolutely no need to revert the edit. Has anyone else got an opinion? Donnanz (talk) 18:35, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
The way it's supposed to work is that the part before the dash clarifies which sense the see link is talking about, and the part after points to another page. "Instalment" is not defined as "instalment", that would be redundant and nonsensical. Let me give you a better example: teetan. "Teetan" is defined as "pipit", so the translation table says essentially, "for the sense "pipit", see "pipit", even though there is only one sense. --WikiTiki89 18:47, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Wikitiki on this. However, in this specific case, we're dealing with an alternative form, which requires additional considerations. Should alternative forms even have translation sections? —CodeCat 18:56, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Now that I think about it, they probably shouldn't. --WikiTiki89 18:58, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
We obviously don't share the same philosophy. The entries are for instalment and teetan respectively, not installment and pipit, and there is only one sense for both. Don't you get it?
As regards translation sections under alternative forms, that idea is bound to be a non-starter, and severely jumped on by some. Donnanz (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Take a look at dumbledore and you will see what I'm trying to say. Yes, the entry is for "dumbledore", but that is already known by the reader. The part before the dash just disambiguates which sense is referred to. The fact that some entries only have one sense does not mean we should abandon the standard format. --WikiTiki89 19:31, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it makes sense in that case. That is what I was referring to above (where two fields are not necessary). But it doesn't always make sense to stick to your "standard format" in other cases. Donnanz (talk) 19:43, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't see how it suddenly stops making sense when there is only one sense. Yes, it may be a little redundant, but why does it not make sense? --WikiTiki89 19:52, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
If there were a specific idea about, for example, how to improve the wording or to clean up the translations at alternative forms (or even about new reasons to have duplicate translations), we could have a more productive discussion. Personally, I somewhat dislike the wording as it is now and so would be favorably disposed to a good alternative. DCDuring TALK 22:31, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Duplications are much worse than having to decide where to host translations - at color or at colour. While it's not possible to keep both entries in sync, we should maintain translations at one entry. (Synonyms are also a problem for synchronising translations.) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Where there's different Am. and Br. spellings the translatons section usually ends up under the Am. spelling. Is that just a coincidence? But with synonyms it's probably easier to have one translations section under the more common version, unless there's a good reason for not doing so. Donnanz (talk) 16:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I have found a baffling example where child prodigy has been shunted off to wunderkind. Why on earth? Donnanz (talk) 13:15, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
    I agree that was probably not a good decision, but what does that have to do with the text of the template? --WikiTiki89 15:49, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
    It's a bit off-topic and should be dicussed in the Tea Room, but I mentioned it as an example of the use of the template. Donnanz (talk) 16:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Templates and modulesEdit

Is there a way to write templates into a module or even invoke modules directly in the mainspace? It seems pointless to have separate pages for templates like this one, which consists of a single line of code. Esszet (talk) 18:29, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "write templates into a module", can you explain? As for invoking modules directly from userspace, that can certainly be done, but it's discouraged. Preferred practice is to create a template, exactly as in this case, and in many cases it's required because of the way the module is written -- many modules look at the parent arguments, i.e. the arguments of the template invocation that called the module, and not the arguments of the module invocation itself. Benwing2 (talk) 01:45, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I mean take the code from the template, put it into the module, and create the template from within the module itself. Is that possible? Esszet (talk) 03:22, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
If what you mean is invoking a template from a module, yes this is possible using frame:expandTemplate() or frame:preprocess(), although it's discouraged, probably because it's slow. Generally, preferred practice is for the modules that implement a template to provide interfaces for both template calls and calls from other modules. If you're worried about having lots of templates like {{la-decl-1st}}, I think a better idea is to have a single interface named e.g. {{la-decl-noun}} (or maybe just {{la-decl}}), which takes the declension type as the first argument. (At one point I suggested an interface of this sort that auto-detected the noun class as much as this is possible, e.g. it would assume that nouns in -us are 2nd declension unless told otherwise ... although it's possible the Latin editors might prefer to have the declension always explicitly notated.) Benwing2 (talk) 05:22, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
It is discouraged also probably because it is nice to have "what links here" list all of the usages of the template. I also prefer one interface. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 06:25, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
You still don't get what I'm trying to say; I mean use the module to create the template. Is that possible? Esszet (talk) 14:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Creating a template dynamically? How would you use it?--Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't know exactly what you mean, but you'd use it by calling it just as you would any other template. Esszet (talk) 17:36, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by using a module to create a template. Can you give me an example? Do you mean to do what a user would do in creating a new template like Template:la-decl-1st? Modules can't do edits like this. Benwing2 (talk) 19:52, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
No, I mean:
  • taking the code {{#invoke:la-noun|show|1}} (or something similar)
  • putting it in the module
  • adding additional code to the module to create the template from there
Is that possible? Esszet (talk) 21:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── You can invoke template code from inside a module by calling frame:preprocess(). In the case of the invoke code you quoted above, there's no need to do so because you could just call the function directly, but if there were other sorts of template code, you could potentially do this. I still don't understand what you mean by "create the template". The only way to invoke code in a module is through {{#invoke:...}}. You either wrap this in a template or call it directly from user code; there's no other way. Benwing2 (talk) 22:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
However, I still don't quite understand *why* you want to do this ... Benwing2 (talk) 22:10, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm using very crude code here, but I mean something like:
function:create template(la-decl-1st)
That way, you would be able to call the template from the module as opposed to its own page, and we could thus get rid of separate pages for templates that could easily be written into modules. Esszet (talk) 00:42, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I think you're misunderstanding the way the system works: at an early stage in the interpretation of the wikicode by the system, the system temporarily (or permanently, if there's a "subst:") replaces {{examplexyz}} in the wikicode with the result of executing the code at [[template:examplexyz]]. Likewise, modules can only produce text, which is fed back to whatever executes the module. It's only when the system processes the wikicode for the entry after it's been modified by the templates and modules that anything shows up on the actual page. A module can't create anything by itself. It can only call existing templates and modules and then feed the resulting text to whatever called it. What you're proposing would be like a TV program creating a television to show itself on.
By the way, I think the reason why accessing templates from modules is discouraged is because the part of the system that executes modules has to create a simulation of the part of the system that executes templates and execute the template within that simulation, which adds layers of system overhead in terms of all kinds of system resources, not just execution time. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Alright then, I guess it isn't possible. Thank you. Esszet (talk) 15:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Confix template bugEdit

Someone reported a sorting bug here: Wiktionary:Feedback#Category:English_words_prefixed_with_mono-

I've called attention to this on the confix template page itself, but nothing seems to be happening, so I'm reporting it here as well.

"No references tag" warningEdit

Would it be possible to turn off the "no references tag" warning ("Warning: You're trying to save page with a <ref> tag but no <references/> tag!", etc.) if {{reflist}} is used instead of "<references/>", or if a section of a page is being edited (because the tag would be elsewhere on the page)? Smuconlaw (talk) 16:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Why do we need {{reflist}}? It should be deleted IMO. —CodeCat 17:39, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I guess that's a separate issue – perhaps it's useful to create columns in "References" sections? Anyway, I've been using it since it exists, and I'm used to using it at the English Wikipedia. In any case, as indicated in my original posting, the warning seems unnecessary when a section of a page is being edited. Smuconlaw (talk) 17:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Module:ja-headword doesn't accept entries with Latin letters in their spellingEdit

Module_talk:ja-headword#Latin-script_in_entry_spellingsuzukaze (tc) 02:34, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

The headword should use katakana, to render the pronunciation correctly and the head parameter can use fullwidth Roman letters, which fit in better in a Japanese text. Fullwidth characters are not allowed for entries but they can be used for visual effect. They are used in Japanese books when Roman letters are mixed with Japanese kana and kanji. I've also answered on the link. The Japanese module won't know how to transliterate Roman letters, that's why you have to "help" it, e.g. "シーディー" is the actual Japanese reading of CD#Japanese and "セックス" is the reading of SEX#Japanese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I suppose, although seeing CD romanized as "shīdī" feels plain wrong. —suzukaze (tc) 02:43, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
That's what was decided at the time. Unlike Chinese, Japanese will have an equivalent katakana spelling for each word in Roman letters, even if the frequency may differ.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)


I found a mistake in quis#Latin. The ablative feminine singular should be quā, not quō. That page links to Template:la-decl-irreg. But that doesn't show any obvious way to indicate the change. Where should I look to find out how to make the change? (Please don't fix it for me. I'd like to learn how to do it.) —BenKovitz (talk) 15:44, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

It's right the way it is. Although the feminine ablative singular of quī is quā, there's no difference between the masculine and feminine forms of quis. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:09, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
If you're curious what's under the hood, the code for Template:la-decl-irreg has an invoke statement, which calls the Lua module Module:la-adj. The code there links to Module:la-adj/data, which contains the actual data for quis. Benwing2 (talk) 09:48, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
@BenKovitz, Angr, Benwing2: (I was the one who made the declension table of "quis") This source lists "quo" as the abl.f.sg. form of "quis". This source contains sentences with the abl.f.sg. form "quo". --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Your ping didn't work for some reason. And yes, quis doesn't distinguish masculine and feminine. Which makes sense if you think about it: if I ask "Who did you talk to?" I don't know if it's a man or a woman. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:45, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


It seems that some changes were made to the template:quote-journal after which the parameter "date" stopped working and the current date appears instead of the date provided. See e. g. mechovka obecná, with date=2008-05-12, but "2016 January 11" apearing instead. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 19:39, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

@Smuconlaw You made the change, can you comment? Benwing2 (talk) 09:51, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
That's strange. I'm checking. Smuconlaw (talk) 11:31, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
There was a wikitext error, which I've fixed. You may have to reload the page to see the change. Sorry about that, and thanks for highlighting the issue. Smuconlaw (talk) 11:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Now it is OK. Thank you for fixing it. Jan Kameníček (talk) 23:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Requesting the automated removal of obsolete Japanese headword parametersEdit

Mainly |1={h|k|hk|kk|etc.} for {{ja-noun}} [1], {{ja-adj}} [2], {{ja-verb}} [3], {{ja-pos}} [4] (possibly more?). It seems like this parameter indicated the scripts the entry's spelling used for categorization purposes, but this is now automatic.

Replacing |hira= and |rom= with |1= would be nice too, but the output would have to be checked against the old manual romaji; for example |hira=やよい|rom=yayoi straightforwardly becomes |やよい, but |hira=そんざいしょうめい|rom=sonzai shōmei becomes |そんざい しょうめい (the romanization is generated from the kana, with half-width spaces in the kana stripped from the headword line's "|head=" but converted to spaces in the romanization) —suzukaze (tc) 03:34, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

This is something I might be able to do. You'd have to give me some more info here:
  • First, you want 1= stripped from {{ja-noun}}, {{ja-adj}}, {{ja-verb}}, {{ja-pos}} if it equals h, k, hk, kk, any more? What happens to the remaining numbered parameters? Do they get moved down by one (so that 2= becomes 1=, 3= becomes 2=, etc.)? What's the maximum number of numbered parameters, is it less than, say, 10 or 20?
  • As for converting hira= to 1=, what I could do for the moment is one of two things:
  1. Either: Generate the romaji from the hiragana in hira=, and if it's equal to the romaji in rom=, change hira= to the proper numbered param and remove rom=. There are 3 issues here: (1) To do this I'd need to know the proper template/#invoke statement to convert hiragana to romaji. (Is it {{xlit|ja|FOO}}?) (2) Should I ignore case when comparing the romaji? E.g. hira=やよい would presumably generate yayoi but for proper nouns the rom= is written Yayoi. (3) I'd also need to know what the proper numbered param is to put the hiragana into. Will it always be 1= for {{ja-noun}}, {{ja-adj}}, {{ja-verb}} and 2= for {{ja-pos}} (assuming that I've already removed the h/k/hk/kk code), or is it more complicated? E.g. will there ever be an h/k/hk/kk code still present?
  2. Or: Alternatively, I could just check if there's a space in the rom=. If so, leave things alone, otherwise, change hira= to the proper numbered param and remove rom=, as above. This depends on there not being any special cases where a single-word hiragana has an unusual romaji that needs to be left alone. To do this, I'd still need to know what the proper numbered param is to put the hiragana into, as above.

Benwing2 (talk) 18:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Examining the old code of these templates, it seems like possible input for |1= was r, h, ka, k, s, ky, and kk. They don't have any effect on the template anymore, and in addition it seems like the templates ignore any pure Latin text that is given as an unnamed parameter if it isn't a recognized part of speech.
|2= would become |1= upon removal of the old useless |1=. It doesn't look like ja-pos has any limits except for script execution time.
Romaji can be generated like this:
  • kitachōsen no suibaku jikken
I think that in most cases capitalization can be ignored, but particles (which may appear in a proper noun, I suppose) are not usually capitalized and needs manual overriding.
It looks like {{ja-pos}} prefers |2=pos ({{ja-pos|にほん|proper}}), but |1=pos ({{ja-pos|proper|にほん}}) is also fully acceptable (see the template code).
For {{ja-noun}} and friends, all unnamed parameters (numbered parameters?) are for kana readings. It's similar for {{ja-pos}}, except part of speech must be included as either |1= or |2=. —suzukaze (tc) 06:47, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Don't remove "ky"! It's still needed to show kyūjitai forms.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:26, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
The documentation for {{ja-pos}} talks about it, but 國際#Japanese (and shinjitai 浜#Japanese) seems to be displaying fine without it...? :s —suzukaze (tc) 07:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
@Atitarev Looking through Module:ja-headword, I can't find anywhere that pays attention to a first parameter with a value of ky. Benwing2 (talk) 07:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  1. I think I will have to expose the function kana_to_romaji in Module:ja-headword to properly know whether it's safe to remove romaji.
  2. I think what I will do when converting hira= to a numbered parameter is to put the hira= value after any existing numbered parameters rather than replacing any of them, in case there are existing kana values. It looks like that should work fine.
  3. If I end up leaving the romaji, is it OK to still convert hira= to a numbered parameter? I think this should be fine from looking at the code, but I can't tell for sure. Benwing2 (talk) 07:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  1. i don't know what that means, i don't know much about lua/normal coding. whatever works...
  2. As in {{ja-noun|k|hira=にほんご|rom=nihongo}}{{ja-noun||にほんご}}? ←It works, but in my opinion it looks odd.
  3. 天叢雲剣 has {{ja-pos|proper|あま の むらくも の つるぎ|rom=Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi}} and it works fine.
suzukaze (tc) 08:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry for not updating the documenation... The templates ignore s and ky. Module:ja (used by all ja- templates) displays the term as shinjitai if the kyu named parameter is set and kyūjitai if the shin parameter is set. Unless something has been altered recently, all of the templates ignore anything that is not kanji or kana, including h,ka,k,kk,r,s, or ky. The current situation is exactly the same as if they were all removed tomorrow. The templates also ignore which choice of hira or kata is used: the user can make a mistake like
and it will be displayed correctly (this happens sometimes.) Therefore hira and kata could also be removed with no visible change.
The manual Latin transliterations or romaji could be replaced with automatic transliterations (the code for romanizing Japanese kana is in Module:ja) with the exceptions of these: Category:Japanese terms with romaji needing attention, but those could also be replaced if the kana were tweaked. You could set the template to ignore rom= stuff and nothing would change except for the terms in that category. --Haplogy () 08:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c As for #2, no, it would be {{ja-noun|にほんご}}. After removing the k parameter, there would be no numbered parameters left, so the hira= value would end up in parameter 1. Benwing2 (talk) 08:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
The original sentence confused me >_< —suzukaze (tc) 08:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
@Haplology Thanks! This definitely helps. So you're saying that I can safely remove rom= unless the page is in Category:Japanese terms with romaji needing attention? That would probably avoid the need to expose and call kana_to_romaji in Module:ja-headword. Benwing2 (talk) 08:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Apologies, I meant "kyu", not "ky". Try removing "|kyu=" from 中国 and 中國 is not displayed any more. Equally, "shin=" is needed on kyūjitai entries. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

|kyu=FORM is staying; what will be removed is |ky (as in this diff). —suzukaze (tc) 08:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c The code is written and I did a small testing run. Can you look at Special:Contributions/WingerBot around 00:51 and 00:52 UTC time on January 16 and check out the changes to see if they look OK? Benwing2 (talk) 00:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
@Benwing2 It looks great! It also reminded me that |hidx= is also useless and can be safely removed. (I see this parameter so infrequently that I've forgotten about its existence...) It used to be for category sort keys, which is also now fully automatic. —suzukaze (tc) 20:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c The run should be done in a couple of hours or so. Hopefully nothing got messed up. Benwing2 (talk) 12:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Translation Adder Language-Code ErrorsEdit

Could someone figure out a way to add language-code checking to the translation adder so it doesn't spew module-error text into the translation sections if someone uses a bad language code? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Year in Usenet citations showing up as 2016Edit

I found a number of Wiktionary entries that cite Usenet posts apparently from this year. These pages (e.g. fandumb), when calling {{quote-newsgroup}}, specify both "year" and "date", with "date" set to something like "11 May", which does not include the year. A change by @Smuconlaw affected the way this is handled by converting the template to a wrapper around {{quote-web}}. Now the "year" argument ("2003") is ignored, and the "date" argument is passed through the #time parser function. PHP assumes the date is in the current year, so "2016 May 11" shows up instead of "2003 11 May".

The same change removed the "group" alias for the "newsgroup" parameter, so the Usenet citations on grouse are also broken in another way.

Could these issues be fixed? PleaseStand (talk) 16:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

OK, let me look into it. Smuconlaw (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
I think the problem has been fixed. You may need to reload the pages to see the changes take effect. Thanks for pointing the issues out. Smuconlaw (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
@Smuconlaw Thanks. I took a look at your fix and may have found a small problem. Right now, the current year (2016) is a leap year. Because only the "date" argument is passed through #time when converting it to Y-m-d format, PHP would assume the date is in the current year, so next year (2017), "February 29" would become "March 1". One simple way I can think of to handle this is to add a space, then the year, to the date before parsing it, so both "29 February [2000]" and "February 29 [2000]" would work. However, I have not tested this, particularly with pages that actually specify a full date in some format along with the year (e.g. bright shiny object). There would also still be pages with broken, unparsable dates (e.g. Citations:batpoop). PleaseStand (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I'll have another look at the template. However, I don't think it can be expected to deal with situations where editors provide the parameters with unexpected values such as in the examples you provide (bright shiny object – both year and full date provided; Citations:batpoop – en dash inserted into date). These will just have to be manually corrected. Smuconlaw (talk) 21:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Tried your suggested fix; it seems to work. Thanks. Smuconlaw (talk) 21:29, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Multiline usage examples (typically quotations)Edit

Is there any way to format multiline usage examples without doing so manually? I can't see how to do this using {{usex}} or {{ux}}. (If it matters, this is for Russian, where translit needs to be supported.) Benwing2 (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

  1. -ჳე გოტ ჳეედ
    -ტჰატ'ს ტიგჰტ
    -wie goṭ wieed
    -ṭhaṭ's ṭighṭ
    (c) john mean doe

--Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 06:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! That seems to work fine. Benwing2 (talk) 07:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
@Benwing2 You can also use <br> :
  1. -ჳე გოტ ჳეედ
    -ტჰატ'ს ტიგჰტ
    -wie goṭ wieed
    -ṭhaṭ's ṭighṭ
    (c) john mean doe
- -sche (discuss) 02:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 02:12, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Template:standard spelling ofEdit

On sceptical, specifying both British and UK both display 'Britain', leading to the rather stupid looking Britain standard spelling of. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

@Renard Migrant For spellings (cases like this), the labels "British spelling" and "American spelling" and "Canadian spelling" should be used: {{standard spelling of|foo|from=British spelling|lang=en}} = British standard spelling of foo.. The difference in appearance also happens if you use these labels in {{label}} (or {{context}} before it): {{label|en|Britain|British|UK|British spelling}} = (Britain, Britain, Britain, British). (Note that "Britain" and "British spelling" also link to two different Wikipedia articles.) It would be nice if the template could interpret "Britain" or "British" or "UK" in the from= field the same as "British spelling", but I don't know if that's technically feasible. - -sche (discuss) 02:03, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Renaming of "cite meta" to "quote-meta"Edit

I have been working on bringing some coherence to the {{cite-}} and {{quote-}} templates. Essentially, the former are now for citing references in "Reference" sections and on talk pages, whereas the latter are for quotations in dictionary entries. I would like to propose that {{cite meta}}, which is used by many of the {{quote-}} templates, be renamed {{quote-meta}} for consistency. Smuconlaw (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

@Smuconlaw Good idea. Thanks for sorting out our messy and messily named cite-/quote- templates. If no-one raises substantive objections or boldly moves this template, ping me in a few days and I'll move it. - -sche (discuss) 02:07, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Great! Will do. Smuconlaw (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
I've moved it, leaving a redirect so that existing uses (in 24 templates) still work. - -sche (discuss) 03:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I'll be changing those existing uses as well. Smuconlaw (talk) 06:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Parameter indent= on Template:usexEdit

There are many entries that provide this parameter now showing up as module errors. However, the original module code (before I made any changes) did not implement this parameter. So it's a no-op. Should it just be removed from these entries? —CodeCat 15:00, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, is the parameter useful? If so maybe it should be implemented. Benwing2 (talk) 20:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
No, it's not useful. DTLHS (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

lit= param to {{ux}}, new template {{uxi}}?Edit

A couple of ideas, what do people think?

  1. Adding a lit= param to {{ux}} to specify the literal meaning. I'm surprised this isn't there already.
  2. Creating a {{uxi}} template that is the same as {{ux}} but has inline=y auto-specified; that parameter is too long. (Or alternatively I suppose we could supply i= as an alias.)

Benwing2 (talk) 20:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Both seem nice. Enosh (talk) 20:45, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
I still think it would be better to reduce the need for inline=, by making the module choose it automatically based on the length of the text. —CodeCat 21:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
I agree, but how do we do this? Benwing2 (talk) 21:14, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
We just need to decide on a threshold length. If the usex is longer, inline is turned off, otherwise it's on. —CodeCat 21:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
I think we ran into this issue before ... ideally, it should never do inline if on a cell phone, and otherwise it should depend on the size of the browser window. There's the @media CSS directive that's supposed to be used for this ... unfortunately I'm not a CSS wizard so I don't quite know whether this can be inserted into an inline CSS directive and more generally how exactly to structure this for Wiktionary but I imagine it should be possible. Benwing2 (talk) 22:50, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
BTW could you implement the lit= param when you have a chance? There are a bunch of Russian usage examples where it would come in very handy. Benwing2 (talk) 22:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
This should only be done if it is possible to do it with CSS. This should not be done by counting characters or anything silly like that, since character counts cannot predict the display size. --WikiTiki89 16:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Here's another idea for {{ux}}: A |sub= parameter that allows for (non-displayed) phonetic substitutions prior to transliteration. The idea is to phonetically respell words that have irregular pronunciations, so that their transliteration shows up correctly without the need to manually transliterate the entire expression--especially useful for long quotations and such. I implemented this for Russian {{ru-ux}}, where it takes the form FROM/TO,FROM/TO,... where FROM and TO are as in Lua patterns (but will usually be fixed strings); but I imagine it would be useful for Yiddish (e.g. to respell Hebrew words), Arabic (e.g. to specify places where -ة is pronounced /t/) and other languages where automatic transliteration is possible but there are exceptions. Benwing2 (talk) 22:37, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I've been thinking about that myself for Yiddish and it never occurred to me that it should be generalized, but I guess there's nothing wrong with that. One problem is that it won't solve everything. For example מקדש spells both "mekadesh" and "mikdesh", and could be used within the same usex. I'm sure the same can happen with Russian, and especially with Arabic. But such cases are probably fairly rare overall. --WikiTiki89 00:15, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
The |lit= parameter was causing module errors in two places at a, so I temporarily added it to the list in Module:usex/templates of parameters for Module:parameters to ignore. I'm not sure if that will interfere with anything- if it does, you know where to find it. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Vietnamese nouns without classifiersEdit

Category:Vietnamese nouns without classifiers is a useful category for nouns having classifiers, however, not all nouns do have classifiers (aka measure words, counters). E.g.:

hai con ếch‎ ― two frogs
hai bệnh viện‎ ― two hospitals

The first noun ếch needs a classifier but not the second one bệnh viện (most if not all Sino-Vietnamese nouns don't require classifiers). Such nouns could use a different parameter, e.g. "cls=-", which could add them to a different (unhidden) category to separate nouns, which don't have classifiers because nobody added them from those, which don't need them. @Fumiko Take, do you think it would be useful. What should be the name of the category? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:09, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Code from thin air.Edit

drepen#Middle Low German asks for a documentation subpage in the entry. It's template Template:gml-conj-st2a is a 1:1 copy of Template:gml-conj-st1 whose test entry riden#Middle Low German does not ask for a documentation subpage. Help. Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 00:09, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Fixed both. —CodeCat 00:54, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
But the error at drepen seems to remain. Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 01:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
I did a null edit, and it went away. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:23, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Module errors on the vote boxEdit

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2016/January#Module errors on the vote box.
Planned and running votes [edit this list]
Ends Title Status/Votes
Feb 4 User:RileyBot decision?
Feb 8 Uncle G for de-sysop decision?
Feb 14 NORM: 10 proposals 81 (17 people)
Feb 23 EL introduction Symbol support vote.svg3 Symbol oppose vote.svg0 Symbol abstain vote.svg0
Feb 27 Definitions Symbol support vote.svg1 Symbol oppose vote.svg1 Symbol abstain vote.svg0
Feb 28 References Symbol support vote.svg3 Symbol oppose vote.svg0 Symbol abstain vote.svg0
Mar 5 Short blocking policy Symbol support vote.svg4 Symbol oppose vote.svg2 Symbol abstain vote.svg0
Mar 6 Literal translations in translation tables Symbol support vote.svg3 Symbol oppose vote.svg3 Symbol abstain vote.svg0
Mar 7 Translations of taxonomic names Symbol support vote.svg1 Symbol oppose vote.svg0 Symbol abstain vote.svg2
Mar 8 Entry name: sign languages 2 (1 person)
Mar 9 Pronunciation Symbol support vote.svg1 Symbol oppose vote.svg0 Symbol abstain vote.svg0
Mar 10 Notes about pronunciations starts: Feb 10
Mar 11 Placement of "Usage notes" starts: Feb 11
Mar 12 Language 2 starts: Feb 12
Mar 13 Automated transliterations starts: Feb 13
Mar 14 Entry name 3 starts: Feb 14
Mar 15 Multiple pronunciation sections starts: Feb 15
Mar 16 Placement of "Alternative forms" starts: Feb 16
Mar 17 Removing "Flexibility" starts: Feb 17
Apr 22 Remove "The essentials" starts: Mar 22
Apr 23 Etymology starts: Mar 23

The vote box currently has 2 module errors. I won't be able to fix them right now because I'm at my new job and I'll be busy for a few hours. :)


In both cases I'm not blaming User:DCDuring, the vote box should behave gracefully even in those events. I'll fix the vote box to accept these things later when I have the time. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I fixed the issue with unsigned votes, although the code in question should also be defensive about properly formatted links (e.g. a link with a colon but no vertical bar may cause issues). Benwing2 (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
In one case I forgot to sign. My bad.
In the other case I signed after a multi-paragraph explanation of my vote, which put a couple of newlines between the template and the signature. Is that a bug or a feature? Even if it is a bug, is it worth fixing? DCDuring TALK 20:01, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
This is a bug, as far as I'm concerned. At the moment, people don't have the ability to sign only after a multi-paragraph vote and have their vote counted in the vote box. People have to sign in the same line they start with a single #, as you have noticed.
But I don't think it could get fixed so easily. Consider this mock vote:
Proposal: Rewrite Wiktionary completely in Morse code.
  1. Symbol support vote.svg Support I want to use Wiktionary on my telegraph, Foo made her case and convinced me.
    You guys should listen to her, too. --Bar (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
The problem is that the module looks for the last user link in the vote line. The actual voter linked to another user, so the module would interpret this as a vote by the linked user. I'm not really sure how to fix this, maybe looking for the "(UTC)" in the end. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:16, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
You can paper over the problem with a few extra words on the vote instructions. Not ideal, but good enough. DCDuring TALK 02:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
I think what you said is the only available option, really. Here's another flaw in the logic that would probably happen if we tried to fix the code. Suppose the first voter forgot to sign the vote and somebody else responded to him.
Proposal: Add translation tables in all foreign-language entries.
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose And remove translation tables from English entries, too.
  • You shouldn't say that, that's going too far. --Voice of reason (talk) 00:00, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
If the module recognized the unsigned vote line and looked for a signature in the next lines, then the module would interpret this as a vote by the user who replied to the actual voter. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 03:24, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
@Daniel Carrero: This is WT:GP material. --WikiTiki89 16:29, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89 Moved it from WT:BP. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Section header strangenessEdit

For some reason, when I load pavus, the edit links next to the section headers are not surrounded by angle brackets and are the same size as the section text. Does this happen to anyone else, and if so, why does it happen and does it happen on any other page? —JohnC5 20:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5: I have been noticing this as well. It seems to have been some kind of wikitext processing glitch that confused the mobile interface with the desktop interface, which has since been fixed but left residue in the cache. To fix these pages, just purge or null edit them. Disclaimer: my explanation is pure speculation. --WikiTiki89 20:50, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: Yep, that worked. Weird. Sometimes I imagine what it would be like if we hard purged all of Wiktionary at once. That would be very exciting. —JohnC5 20:55, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
It was happening intermittently to me before; I've noticed that the link structure of the edit links are reminiscent of the VisualEditor (!?), but nothing happens when you click on the links, probably because the VisualEditor isn't enabled... —suzukaze (tc) 20:56, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
It's been happening to me today too. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:40, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Ah, so this wasn't just me. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 00:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
It's happening again today. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 02:21, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Merging 'Place names old' and 'Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names'Edit

Is there any plan to merge Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names and Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names old? --KoreanQuoter (talk) 12:31, 19 January 2016 (UTC)


The template {{pi-noun}} needs a parameter for a second gender, such as for the noun mitta. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 23:41, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo: Done. --kc_kennylau (talk) 12:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Now it seems to place all Pali noun entries into the category for Pali nouns in Latin script, as I noticed from editing तरु ‎(taru). (Also, what just happened to {{pi-alt}}?) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

no-L2-L3 and simplified Chinese formsEdit

The abuse filter no-L2-L3 prevents changing entries to the simplified format (since it has no L3 headers) and messy things must be done. It's problematic. Can an exception be made if {{zh-see}} is present? —suzukaze (tc) 05:15, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, please. Anonymous users can't create or edit Chinese simplified form entries.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A related vote on the structure of Chinese simplified entries: Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-12/Making simplified Chinese soft-redirect to traditional Chinese --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:23, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Well yes, here's the text of the vote: "Making simplified Chinese soft-redirect to traditional Chinese. Thus, hosting definitions and other content in traditional Chinese entries, and no longer in simplified Chinese entries." Assuming that the vote passed (which by my lights it did not), the vote does not stipulate that soft-links are the miniature markups that we now see in Chinese simplified entries. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:37, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
The Beer Parlour discussion linked to in the vote seems to once have featured example entries that use {{zh-see}}, such as User:Wyang/历史. It looks like voters knew fully well what they were voting for. —suzukaze (tc) 22:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it's time simplified Chinese entries start honoring our proven practices, along the lines of the vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2013-03/Romanization and definition line. Format like the following does not fit the results of the vote:


Yes, the vote was about Japanese romanization entries, but one would guess the voters would also support that Chinese entries follow the standard format. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:41, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

One would guess, but Chinese isn't as similar to Japanese as one would expect. Simplified forms aren't romanizations; compare and . Besides, I believe the Chinese entry layout has been voted on already (correct me if I'm wrong). —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Special:UncategorizedPages finds almost entirely categorized pagesEdit

That's about it, really. 209 results as of 10:51, 22 January 2016, but almost all of them categorized. It used to be a really useful tool to find broken formatting, now it's almost unusable. There are probably about 20 uncategorized pages in there, but which ones? And why is this happening? Renard Migrant (talk) 11:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I am not certain, but I think it has to do with the fact that they were created through the API and never "touched" which allowed them to fall through the categorization cracks. - TheDaveRoss 14:12, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't think this is a real-time list.
The first three that I looked at were created on January 23. I suspect that the master list of category-entry associations was created before then, but the list is created as a subtraction of entries with such associations from all entries as of January 26. The hypothesis could be tested by inspecting a list of pre-January-26, post-January 23 new entries to see whether they are on the page in question. DCDuring TALK 15:19, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
The ones I looked at were mostly created before the listed cache date. - TheDaveRoss 15:23, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
What is the API? Renard Migrant (talk) 15:43, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
The API is the interface which bots (and any other methods which are not using the Mediawiki interface) use to interact with the database. Here is a lot of information about it. - TheDaveRoss 15:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Any item on any cached special page must have been around before the time of the caching. I was wondering whether the process of list creation had latency delays. On further inspection I could show my hypothesis to be mostly wrong. I didn't find many latency delays based on my limited inspection. I did find that many of the entries on the list show 0 wikilinks, which probably has something to do with the means the bots used to create the entries (API?). Those entries also did not appear on Special:NewPages. The bot-created entries were mostly Russian and French. The other entries seem to be on the list by reason of not having an inflection line template. But some entries defy my explanations, such as Bakuninist. DCDuring TALK 15:47, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Broken links to Species and CommonsEdit

The links to Wikspecies and WikiCommons aren't working. Attempts to reach either by urlname don't seem to be working. Any information on why? DCDuring TALK 19:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for reporting this. There are multiple issues which are currently being investigated by the Operations team of the WMF. The corresponding bug report is phab:T124804. --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 19:29, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for monitoring this page. I don't have enough reason to try to get the hang of IRC. DCDuring TALK 20:24, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Searching in Greek scriptEdit

Can someone make it so that when you search in the Greek script, accented and unaccented characters show up in each other's results? (Like we have in Latin script.) For example, if I see a Greek word written in Latin as "pethainw" and I search "πεθαινω", there are zero results or hints that would point me to the correct word, "πεθαίνω", which is only an accent mark away. Ultimateria (talk) 19:46, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I think that this should be reported on Phabricator as a feature request for CirrusSearch. —suzukaze (tc) 19:48, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
(e/c) Unfortunately, this is something only the devs can do. We've already requested it in the past at least for Cyrillic, but no luck. Maybe if enough people complain to them... --WikiTiki89 19:50, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Here is an old related bug if you would like to roll it into your new one: Devanagari and Arabic combining character handling - TheDaveRoss 21:24, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Similar issues exist for Cyrillic with accented vowels too, although the accents are generally separate combining characters in that case. If you search for unaccented Cyrillic, it will not find any accented Cyrillic on the same page. This is actually a much bigger problem since the major Cyrillic languages are generally not written with accents, unlike Greek. —CodeCat 21:27, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
I think we should complain a lot more vigorously about this one. Otherwise it makes the whole foreign-language component of enwikt much harder to use. Benwing2 (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, fully agree. This has been bugging me, for Russian searches should include words spelled with е and ё. It also applies to Arabic words with and without diacritics, Hindi words with and without nuqta and "chandra". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:56, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
Oops, I just realised that this is about my old complaint. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:58, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Categorize or track alternative forms of redlinksEdit

We already track at least some instances of "form of"-type templates linking to a redlink, e.g. Category:Plurals with a red link for singular. If it wouldn't be too "expensive", I think it would be useful to also track cases where something is defined as an alternative form of a redlink: e.g. praedaturus currently defines itself as an "Alternative form of praeurus", which is currently a redlink. It seems like every case would need attention, either to create the linked-to entry or to clean up the linking entry. It could also be useful to track inflected forms ("third person singular", etc) of redlinks. - -sche (discuss) 03:56, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Good idea, and I don't think this is too expensive to do. Benwing2 (talk) 05:46, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
It should probably be done with all form-of templates, shouldn't it? —CodeCat 22:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Yup, I agree. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Yes. It would be especially good (but not absolutely necessary) if we could figure out how to stop entries like Appendix:Proto-Algonquian/mehɬali from going in the category, or at least if we could put non-NS:0 pages into a separate subcategory. - -sche (discuss) 22:48, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Can't this be done from the dump rather than in near-real time? Then it imposes no cost on the servers, except for the download. DCDuring TALK 00:47, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Minor cosmetic bug in watchlistEdit

In the watchlist, pages with new changes are highlighted in bold. Recently I've noticed that the bold formatting is removed when I click an item (i.e. it suddenly goes "unbold"). Since I often middle-click, to open pages in separate tabs, this can be a bit disconcerting. Bug? Equinox 17:03, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I think this was intended to be a feature, not a bug (since after clicking, it's no longer a new change). But I too find it very annoying and would like this feature removed. --WikiTiki89 18:52, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, it's bad for usability because it unexpectedly changes the size of a click target. Equinox 18:58, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Alternative title for entry with forbidden character?Edit

I want to create an entry for C|N>K (computing slang for "coffee through nose to keyboard", i.e. laughing hard at a posted message); cf. snark, splork. The pipe character | cannot be used in page titles. What should I call the entry? Equinox 23:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Probably this: Unsupported titles/C vertical line N greater than K. (short link: C|N>K)
Compare: Unsupported titles/Vertical line and Unsupported titles/Greater than sign. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:27, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't really like that: "greater than" is not what the sign means here. Perhaps "C through N to K" is better. But I still don't get how to do it. How do I give the page its proper display title, since I can't put | inside the template? And how do I make {{en-intj}} display it properly? Equinox 23:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
  1. Create the page with the descriptive title starting with Unsupported titles/, like in the examples we discussed. I don't mind if you use Unsupported titles/C through N to K.
  2. You can use {{en-intj|head=C{{!}}N>K}}, I tested it. {{!}} generates the | usable in templates.
  3. Edit Template:unsupported imitating the entries already there. They are redirects from the normal form (C|N>K) to the descriptive entry name (C through N to K). I suggest setting up "CNK" as a usable shortcut. If you do this, then later people can use {{unsupported|CNK}} which would be the same as [[Unsupported titles/C through N to K|C|N>K]].
  4. Edit MediaWiki:Common.js, look for the list that starts with "Left_curly_bracket" and add the new entry there. This changes the displayed entry title. Clean your cache (Ctrl+F5 or whatever) to see the results.
  5. Also list the new entry in Appendix:Unsupported titles.
--Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:54, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Done steps 1 and 2. Did not understand step 3 so stopped there. Equinox 23:59, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
I'll explain. See this line from Template:unsupported:
|.|period|full stop = [[Unsupported titles/Full stop|{{#if: {{{2|}}} | {{{2}}} | .}}]]
It means that people are able to use ".", "period" and "full stop", yielding the same result: a link for the right page, with the right title.
So you can add a line like this:
|CNK|C{{!}}N>K|C through N to K| = [[Unsupported titles/C through N to K|{{#if: {{{2|}}} | {{{2}}} | C{{!}}N>K}}]]
This would make these three template calls work:
--Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:08, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Coo. I never thought I'd see an uglier programming language than mIRC script! Equinox 00:18, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
LOL. That should probably be Luaziced at some point. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:30, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
It would be faster too. Large switches are rather slow, I remember that from the pre-Lua days. —CodeCat 00:39, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I've been trying, but I cannot get {{unsupportedpage}} to actually display C|N>K as the title of the page. Any ideas? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:36, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
@Angr: Yes check.svg Done. I used MediaWiki:Common.js as explained above. {{unsupportedpage}} is just a {{DEFAULTSORT}}, it does not appear to be able to change page titles anywhere. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
In that case, it's unfortunate that its documentation says, "The effect is to change the displayed header on the page". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
You're right. That template should probably be orphaned+deleted, but I don't have much time to look into it carefully right now. For the moment, I edited the documentation to remove false information. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:10, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

polish noun head templateEdit

i don't know if i'm missing something, but it seems like the template:pl-noun doesn't have a parameter to display a plural form, like the english entries do. if the layout policies say that foreign language entries shouldn't have such an option, please correct me, but i think it would be beneficial (at least a little bit). that said, i'm not really skilled in writing templates, only some simple wikipedia ones, so should we decide that it will be implemented, someone will have to do it properly.

profesjonalizmreply 06:35, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

@Profesjonalizm: I think it is not there because it can be found in the declension tables. --kc_kennylau (talk) 07:23, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau: ok, you're right, thanks for the info profesjonalizmreply 09:47, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
For Russian, we include gen sg and nom pl in the headword line (as well as gender and animacy); that's done because these two forms help relatively experienced speakers figure out the rest of the declension. Perhaps for Polish the gender and animacy is enough; one of the main things the gen sg and nom pl help with is pinpointing the accent pattern, which doesn't really have an equivalent in Polish. The nom pl also helps with the many nouns that have irregular nominative plurals; perhaps such nouns aren't so common in Polish? (I don't know Polish so I can't say.) Note that Russian entries also come with a full declension table. Perhaps some additional forms should be added to the Polish noun headwords? Benwing2 (talk) 06:59, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
I have been experimenting in a few languages with a different format, in which the inflection table doesn't fully collapse but shows only the principal parts. It's currently used for Dutch, Finnish, Northern Sami and a few more Finnic languages. —CodeCat 22:26, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I've even been planning to use CodeCat's new format for Yiddish adjective declension tables. --WikiTiki89 01:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

February 2016

When do pings get sent?Edit

Some people have reported not receiving pings sent using {{ping}}. Anyone know why this happens? Someone once mentioned something about the ping needing to be in the same paragraph as the signature. Is this really true? (It seems quite suspect to me.) Benwing2 (talk) 07:01, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

User:Benwing2, And someone said it works when a new signature is added (or updated). This seems very logical to me.—This comment was unsigned.
I believe the ping is done as part of, or is triggered by, the expansion of the tildes. I've had good results with simply replacing my signature with the tildes when re-pinging, but I seem to remember someone saying it wouldn't work if you decreased the size of the post. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:34, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
I believe you may find this enlightening. —JohnC5 16:22, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz, JohnC5 Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 01:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Late Latin not an ancestor of Aromanian?Edit

@CodeCat I tried to put {{inh|rup|LL.|sclavus}} at the beginning of the etym section for shcljau and got an error "Lua error in Module:etymology at line 73: Late Latin is not an ancestor of Aromanian." Seems to me Late Latin IS an ancestor of Aromanian and other Romanian dialects. Is this fixable easily or is it a more basic bug in how {{inh}} deals with etymology-only languages? Benwing2 (talk) 07:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@Benwing2 I have updated mod:languages/data3/r so that it should work now. —JohnC5 07:28, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
@JohnC5 Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 07:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Category:ParserFunction errorsEdit

A lot of entries in this category are due to someone using {{quote-newsgroup}} with both date= and year= set. A solution is to move the year into the date= parameter like [5]. Would it be possible to fix these pages in that manner with a bot? - -sche (discuss) 22:26, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

@-sche: Yes. --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:52, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Autopopulation of Category:Terms by their individual characters by language via Template:headEdit

At User talk:JohnC5#Greek Nasal Accent, there was recently a discussion about using {{head}} to populate categories like Category:English terms spelled with Æ automatically. I don't understand the technical bits, so here are the relevant parts of that discussion:

I'm searching pro a website listing all terms using Qoppa, San, Digamma (both version) and others ancient removed letter, I can't find any in web, do you know something ? 09:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
{{R:LSJ}} and {{R:DGE}} will have digammata when known. For the others, I do not know. —JohnC5 15:25, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
This is a fair point, actually; English has categories like this. On the other hand, this appears to be manual. Is it possible to put something like this into {{head}}? —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 15:51, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@ObsequiousNewt: If we create module:grc-headword, easily. Without that, it would become more difficult and would require you to juryrig something with invocations of the match function in Module:string in the headword templates. —JohnC5 16:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Why would we need to create a separate module? We can easily modify the show_headword_line function in Module:headword. Perhaps add a category in Module:languages/data for a list of 'notable' characters (e.g. "[0-9À-ÿ]", although it would certainly have more characters), then something like for i in mw.ustring.gmatch(<headword>,<list>) do <add category> end. (Alternatively, you could do the reverse, and make a list of characters that are typical, then your function would be the same except the list would be "[^ 'A-Za-z]". This may be easier.) CodeCat, comments?—ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 17:22, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@ObsequiousNewt: That's fair. Though specifying them in each headword template for a language is a pain. The optimal method, I think, would be to specify notable = "[0-9À-ÿ]", in Module:languages per language and then reference that list in Module:headword. I think it would be nice to have a "notable" category that get categories by character and then a catchall which will get anything outside of the "standard characters" + "notable characters". This would also be useful for debugging. —JohnC5 18:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I hope you realize that you and and ObsequiousNewt suggested the exact same thing. It's a good idea though. --WikiTiki89 22:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: Lol, I do now! I skimmed over this earlier and clearly misread everything. Newt shows him/herself to be as prudent and wise as ever; whereas I am always making careless misakes. —JohnC5 23:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
@CodeCat, what do you think of this suggestion? —JohnC5 00:55, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
FWIW, I think it's a great idea. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 02:46, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
@I'm so meta even this acronym: so, should we bring this up in the GP? You know how much I hate starting discussions in the main rooms... —JohnC5 03:57, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
I think we will want to have some kind of global list of characters that are not interesting in any language. This would include spaces, punctuation and the like. For individual languages, a list of uninteresting characters would be far more effective than a list of unusual characters, too. —CodeCat 01:00, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

So, can this be done without too much hassle? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 23:45, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It can be done, but I would propose a trial with just one language first, so that we can iron out any problems before it's done more widely. —CodeCat 00:02, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Support. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:05, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Support. An alternative is to have a bot go through the database dumps periodically and add categories, but ... this sounds like less work in the long run. - -sche (discuss) 02:40, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Support, but I disagree with CodeCat and think that we should specify characters that we want categories for, rather than characters that we don't want categories for. Not all random characters that might happen to appear in a word are actually interesting. --WikiTiki89 19:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Toki Pona user mergeEdit

Category:User art-top and Category:User tokipona should probably be merged if possible. -Xbony2 (talk) 21:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

prefix templateEdit

Hi ! I just created heahflod, using the prefix template in the Etymology section, and I'm seeing what looks like an attempt by it to establish a template (it's asking for documentation tab). Please help Leasnam (talk) 00:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I see other entries are doing it as well. Please see *grunnatjaną, which shows it when trying to employ the suffix template Leasnam (talk) 00:14, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
See the next section. --WikiTiki89 02:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Project link template messEdit

Wiktionary entry 'laire' broken for some reason. 4th of Feb 2016. (this image added by Renard Migrant (talk) 00:22, 4 February 2016 (UTC))

At an entry like cat or Zika virus (See Zika virus#External links.) I am getting some material relating to documentation that is not supposed to be included. Why? I could not find a change that caused it, though my module foo is worse than my template foo. DCDuring TALK 00:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

I see that the problem is much more general, affecting my view of even this page. DCDuring TALK 00:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
See image. Someone seems to have broken MediaWiki somehow so that <noinclude> is now just unformatted text. See image above. I encountered the same problem on commons: while trying to upload the image. Renard Migrant (talk) 00:23, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Aagh, me too! The whole site is wobbly, first noticed at pitar. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:24, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Gosh, this is annoying. Almost no page on Wiktionary is displaying normally right now. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 00:26, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I wonder how long it will take for this to flush out of the system once fixed. I wonder whether the system will have to go down for to accelerate the flushing. DCDuring TALK 00:31, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Even WT:Main Page is broken. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/255258/; some information regarding unclosed <noinclude> tags. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi folks, sorry about that. I tried to change the behavior of unclosed XML-like tags to no longer eat everything afterwards on a page, which tends to break things horribly for most tags. It's being reverted now. Although I don't understand why you chose to rely on this behavior for apparently every single template with documentation on the whole wiki… Matma Rex (talk) 00:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Saves keystrokes, I suppose...we are a little lazy. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
The ironic thing is, our laziness is what compels us to make thing easier. --Romanophile (contributions) 00:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
two sides of the same coin, I suppose. Also, the bug is back for me on विषाणु ‎(viṣāṇu) —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 00:55, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
What's the alternative to noinclude for template documentation? Renard Migrant (talk) 00:48, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
noinclude with a closing tag! — Ungoliant (falai) 00:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't think anyone "relied" on this on purpose. It was probably an oversight in one template and then just got copy&pasted into other ones, as things go in MediaWiki land. Jberkel (talk) 00:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I did it on purpose a lot. One thing I have learned is that people will use whatever works, and to stop them, you have to make it stop working. —CodeCat 01:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh well then. Regardless of the reasons, it's definitely not safe for the parsing code to assume well-formed input. Probably a task for a bot to check & add the missing closing tags? Jberkel (talk) 01:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
To all the people I tried to get to stop doing this: I toldya so. --WikiTiki89 02:21, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Can we make an edit filter for this (after existing unclosed tags have been closed)? DTLHS (talk) 02:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
For the less technically literate among us, what exactly is causing this problem? Is it a problem with templates themselves, or does it need fixing on individual pages? A lot of pages are still displaying like this for me, though oddly, some that were before now look normal. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 03:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Imagine <noinclude></noinclude> as a box, where things go inside the box, such as <noinclude>HOW TO USE THE TEMPLATE:</noinclude>. Specifically, <noinclude></noinclude> means that the text inside should be shown when looking at a page (template, in this case) directly, but not when you include the page on another page (after all, no one needs to see "HOW TO USE THE TEMPLATE:" when trying to navigate an entry; that would be downright odd). For some reason a lot of the templates have boxes that aren't closed (<noinclude>). The box used to be automatically closed by the code that converts wikicode to HTML, but not anymore, so now all of the contents (template documentation) spill out onto the pages (because the software no longer sees the unclosed 'box' as "do not include this text when including the page on another page"). —suzukaze (tc) 03:06, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
(e/c) The cause of the problem is that many templates used improper syntax (omitting the closing </noinclude> tag). This improper syntax used to work anyway, but the MediaWiki developers released an update that caused this syntax to stop working. The two potential solutions are: (a) to fix all our templates or (b) to roll back the software update. Option (a) is the only one we have control over, and is something we should do regardless of whether it is necessary. Option (b) is out of our control and probably not the best solution in the long run anyway. Essentially only templates need to be fixed, and some have already been fixed. --WikiTiki89 03:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)--WikiTiki89 03:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
It looks like the update has been rolled back, but there are still lots of entries that won't be normal until the edit queue gets around to them or until someone does a null edit on each of them. I do recall an incident not that long ago when someone added categories or interwikis (I don't remember which) to the end of a template after the </noinclude>, and they ended up in every entry that used the template. That would be less likely to happen without a closing </noinclude>. Still, I don't like leaving loose ends like this hanging. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:50, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Makes sense, suzukaze and Wikitiki, thanks. And while I figured out that null edits fixed the problem since the rollback, I wasn't sure if I was actually accomplishing anything, so I'm glad to learn that it is. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 03:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
The lingering effect seems to on search more than on the entries themselves. That is, the loaded entry pages generated by the search Chuck linked to above don't contain the nonsense. DCDuring TALK 04:01, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I will go through the ones which are easy to fix, the ones which just need a closing noinclude at the end. I will also make a list of templates which have unbalanced noinclude and includeonly tags which will have to be cleaned up manually. - TheDaveRoss 02:59, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I think that I got all of them, there are four vote templates which are messed up and someone should take a look at. Find them here. - TheDaveRoss 17:29, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
They seem fine to me. They are a bit confusing though, because they are meant to be substed and some of the tags are actually meant to be including themselves in the subst. --WikiTiki89 02:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps we should add an edit filter to warn people that leaving an unclosed tag is a bad idea? - TheDaveRoss 14:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
If it could be done, .... Maybe we need special edit windows for template and module space that managed syntax and formatting. Too bad missing documentation couldn't be handled the same way. DCDuring TALK 14:56, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I have never made an edit filter, but I think something along the lines of this would work for the two main offenders:
article_namespace == 10 &
count("<noinclude>",new_wikitext) == count("</noinclude>",new_wikitext)
& count("<includeonly>",new_wikitext) == count("</includeonly>",new_wikitext)
Someone who actually knows what they are doing with these would have to look it over. - TheDaveRoss 13:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
On second thought, I just gave it a try and created Special:AbuseFilter/47. If those who know about such things would like to take a look that would be great. It seems to work, and gives a warning when there are unbalanced noinclude or includeonly tags. If regex is allowed in abuse filters I suppose it could work for any unbalanced tags, but that would get more complicated and more expensive. - TheDaveRoss 00:20, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Of course regexes are supported there, but I don't think we should generalize this too much. --WikiTiki89 02:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Looks good. Regexes are more complicated and processing intensive, I think this should be good enough for the majority of cases. Also checked, there's no whitespace allowed (e.g. </ noinclude>) and the tags are case sensitive (</Noinclude>), so we shouldn't need anything more complicated anyway. Jberkel (talk) 03:49, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I wrote a tool to check for unclosed noinclude tags in an XML dump. Looks like most occurrences have already been fixed by @TheDaveRoss (thanks!). I fixed the remaining handful I came across except for {{documentation subpage}} which is locked. I'll rinse and repeat once a more recent dump gets published. Jberkel (talk) 02:53, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Did I add the right </noinclude> to {{documentation subpage}}? DCDuring TALK 03:18, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Yes. --WikiTiki89 03:36, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Missing space in category nameEdit

Category:Englishproper nouns with unknown or uncertain plurals‏‎ had two members per special wanted pages, now has three. It should have none. The category name is not hard-coded on the page. DCDuring TALK 03:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. DTLHS (talk) 03:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. DCDuring TALK 03:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Not taking screen to right section header from watchlistEdit

For some time (weeks?), clicking on the section header as for sheer on a page like WT:RFV (WT:RFV#sheer) would not take me to the section. Why? I assume this occurs because there is an obsolete section number. In contrast, the above named section link takes me to the right section. Does it happen to others? Is it something that can be corrected? What could I change in my behavior to reduce the annoyance? DCDuring TALK 13:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

request for audioEdit

Is there a template available for that? I can't find it. Donnanz (talk) 14:36, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

{{rfap}} Chuck Entz (talk) 14:52, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Ah, cheers! Donnanz (talk) 14:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Odd behaviour in category sidebarEdit

I created multireflector recently. If you visit Category:English words prefixed with multi-, it's listed in both "Recent additions to the category" and in "Oldest pages ordered by last edit". Why should it appear in the latter? Does creating a page not count as an edit? If so, that stops this feature from being very helpful in finding long-untouched pages. Equinox 15:42, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

According to the specification the second list comprises of "pages sorted by date pages were last edit". I have removed "Oldest" part.
Interestingly the specs also adds
It should be noted, that lastedit really sorts by the last time the page was touched. In some cases this is not equivalent to the last edit (for example, this includes permission changes, creation or deletion of linked pages, and alteration of contained templates).
which does not sound very useful to me too. --Dixtosa (talk) 18:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
The sorting is reversed though, so the pages that have not been edited the longest show up first. —CodeCat 18:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
I purged the page and the problem seems to have resolved itself. So the issue was that it was not updated. --WikiTiki89 18:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Is Module:ja-headword broken?Edit

Romaji is no longer displayed on kana entries like フォークリフト and どうしょう. In addition, {{ja-noun|しょう の ふえ}} (簫の笛) should produce romaji "shō no fue", not "shōnofue".—suzukaze (tc) 09:45, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The last four edits by @kc kennylau, CodeCat seem to have caused this... —suzukaze (tc) 10:01, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Writing templates in JavaScript?Edit

Now, I have a dim memory that somewhere on Wiktionary it was said that you can create templates using JS as well as Wikitext and Lua, but I can't find it anymore and it contradicts what the Wiki HQ says about Scribuntu. So I'm no longer that much convinced that it was about templates - or even more than a dream. Can JavaScript ever be used to edit mainspace pages? Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 22:47, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

You can write whatever you want in js and then put it in either MediaWiki:Common.js or your common.js page. Is that what you meant? DTLHS (talk) 22:52, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
I meant whether I can {{#invoke:}} modules written in Javascript so I don't have to write e.g. conjugation tables in Wikitext. Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 08:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Nope. That's never been possible. --Yair rand (talk) 09:10, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


The template {{rfdef}} is malfunctioning. The documentation does not explain what is missing when I use the template on the entry for marvellously to request a definiton. Instead the template thinks a translation is needed and spouts something about Lua. In the event that the template is functioning correctly, then the documentation needs to be altered to match current template function. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:41, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

These days it needs to be {{rfdef|lang=en}} (or whatever language). Equinox 01:46, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I thought this was pretty clear: "Lua error in Module:utilities at line 97: Language code has not been specified. Please pass parameter 1 to the template." --kc_kennylau (talk) 01:53, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I've brought the documentation up to date. —CodeCat 01:57, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I think there should be more effort made by folks updating or converting templates/modules to ensure backwards compatibility. So many templates/modules are broken in historical revisions, and plenty of things are broken on live pages. In the case of the current topic it should handle a missing language parameter either by providing a default value or by gracefully failing (by categorizing the entry and providing the expected output). I support updating things to provide improved functionality, but it should be done properly. - TheDaveRoss 17:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Is that going to happen as long as the folks "improving" the infrastructure mostly work on their own agendas? DCDuring TALK 17:37, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
It could be argued that throwing an error ensures that things get fixed quickly. Benwing2 (talk) 01:31, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

deleting pages by botEdit

Is there a way to delete pages by bot? I ran a bot to create noun and verb forms for Russian lemmas and it created some erroneous forms due to errors in the declension templates on the lemma pages. I've gone through half the created forms and so far identified 14 such lemmas; this amounts to maybe 150 forms, too many to easily do by hand. Benwing2 (talk) 02:46, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

OK, I think I've figured it out. I assume however that I need to use an admin account, not a bot account ... is this correct? Or should I seek to have delete privileges added to my bot account (if there are such things)? Benwing2 (talk) 04:07, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Nah, use your admin account and give it a flood flag. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:21, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, what's a flood flag? Benwing2 (talk) 07:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
OK, figured it out I think, never mind. Benwing2 (talk) 07:18, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

FYI, if you ever need to delete a lot of pages more quickly than can be done using the normal method, but want slightly more control / opportunity for review before each deletion than you get with a bot, (a) AutoWikiBrowser can delete pages (if you log in with your admin account), and (b) quite a while ago Ruakh wrote some javascript, of which you can find a copy here, which can be modified (change "ri" to whatever you need, and the deletion reason to whatever is appropriate) so that when you land on the "delete page" page associated with entries starting with some string, it prefills the deletion summary and clicks delete; you can use that + Lupin / Navigation popups (which have a 'delete' button) to delete a lot of entries quickly but still "by hand". - -sche (discuss) 22:18, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I wish AWB worked better on a Mac. I've gotten it to work (sort of) through Wine, although it's a pain to install and it had some problems, if I remember ... I think it didn't respond properly to keyboard shortcuts. Benwing2 (talk) 01:29, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


Template:eo-spel is currently displaying two errors: at ehhoshangho chiujhaude it displays "ehhoŝanĝo ĉiuĵaude" instead of "eĥoŝanĝo ĉiuĵaŭde", and at chau it displays "ĉau" instead of "ĉaŭ". If someone more knowledgeable than me could fix this, it would be much appreciated. Pinging @Kc kennylau and @Robin van der Vliet, the two main editors of Module:eo-spel. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:14, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

@Mr. Granger: Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 03:00, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 03:07, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Action labeled incorrectly as harmful.Edit

Hi there,

I was trying to create a wiktionary entry for "MasculinitySoFragile" and was labeled as "probably spam." I'd like to report this as incorrect. Here is the code below




  1. A hashtag-turned-phrase referring to the instability of hypermasculinity and toxic masculinities that often lead men to commit misogynistic harassment and violence against women, particularly when challenged.
Alternative forms
  • {{alter|en|#MasculinitySoFragile}}

Coined by California-based writer and student Anthony Williams<ref name="will.aj">Anthony Williams, "[https://about.me/williams.anthonyj Anthony Williams' about.me]," "about.me," no date</ref> under the username @anthoknees on Twitter<ref name="ant">@anthoknees, "[http://www.twitter.com/anthoknees Anthoknees]," "Twitter.com," no date</ref> on September 23, 2015<ref name="anthoknees">Anthony Williams, "[https://anthoknees.wordpress.com/2015/09/23/masculinitysofragile/?preview_id=502 #MasculinitySoFragile]," ''anthoknees, please [Wordpress.com]," 23 September 2015</ref><ref name="independent">Anthony Williams, "[http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-i-started-tweeting-and-helped-popularise-masculinitysofragile-a6669101.html Why I started tweeting and helped popularise #MasculinitySoFragile]," "Independent Voices," 27 September 2015</ref><ref name="the-ipf">Priyanka Mogul, "[http://the-ipf.com/2015/10/04/masculinitysofragile-anthony-williams-subconscious-misogyny-sexism-men-hashtag-trending/ #MasculinitySoFragile: Anthony Williams' Twitter Campaign Addresses Subconscious Misogyny in Men]," "The IPF," 4 October 2015</ref><ref name ="mic">Julie Zeilinger "[http://mic.com/articles/125752/masculinity-so-fragile-hashtag-exposes-toxic-masculinity-standards #MasculinitySoFragile Exposes Everything Wrong With Toxic Masculinity Standards]," "Mic.com," 23 September 2015</ref><ref name="LA-Times">Dexter Thomas, "[http://www.latimes.com/fashion/alltherage/la-ar-masculinity-fragile-20150923-htmlstory.html Why is #MasculinitySoFragile?]," "LA Times," 23 Setpember 2015</ref>, the hashtag was first created by @puppydogexpress. <ref name="tweet">@puppydogexpress[https://twitter.com/puppydogexpress/status/646770786150318080] Twitter.com," 23 September 2015 </ref><ref name ="philosophy">David Michael Newstead "[https://philosophyofshaving.wordpress.com/2016/01/22/the-origins-of-masculinitysofragile/ The Origins of #MasculinitySoFragile]," "The Philosophy of Shaving," 22 January 2016 </ref>.

Williams stated that he had previously used the hashtag on Twitter to express the fragility of masculinity, but after reading a tweet from FeministaJones (@FeministaJones on Twitter) about multiple instances of intimate partner violence, he began using the hashtag again in a long series of tweets. <ref name="anthoknees" />

He writers, "[s]o I went on a long series of tweets about domestic violence, abuse, rape, and other forms of violence under the hashtag #MasculinitySoFragile. I’m not the first to use the hashtag, but I continued a conversation tonight that women–and Black women in particular–have been having for centuries." <ref name="anthoknees" /> Buzzfeed<ref name="buzzfeed"> Luke Bailey, "[http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukebailey/fragile-masculinity-lol?bftw&utm_term=.clN29PRJM#.dxORx72NB 23 Gendered Products That Prove How Truly Fragile Masculinity Is]," "Buzzfeed," 23 September 2015</ref> and other news sources continued to the the hashtag to reference and point out gendered products and toys.<ref name="guardian">Olivia Marks, "[http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/womens-blog/2015/sep/25/get-real-lammily-the-doll-with-acne-and-cellulite-now-gets-her-period-too] Get real: Lammily - the doll with acne and cellulite - now gets her period, too]," "Guardian," 25 September 2015</ref>

Williams continues to write about #MasculinitySoFragile academically<ref name="ASA"> Anthony Williams, "[https://asasexandgender.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/november.pdf #MasculinitySoFragile: An essay]," "American Sociological Asssociation Sex & Gender Newsletter," November 2015</ref>, with a workshop planned in late February at the University of California, Berkeley.<ref name="CRG"> Anthony Williams, "[http://crg.berkeley.edu/content/black-masculinity-twitter #BlackMasculinity: Race, Gender and the Politics of Twitter]," "University of California, Berkeley Center for Race & Gender" no date</ref>


<references /> —This unsigned comment was added by Anthoknees (talkcontribs) at 02:27, 9 February 2016‎ (UTC).

@Anthoknees Thanks for your post. Regarding the suggested entry, please see Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion. Has this word been used in durably archived sources (generally meaning published books or Usenet posts) by at least three different people over a period of more than one year? If so, please provide evidence. If not, it does not meet Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 03:03, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) This is a really bad entry for a number of reasons- so much so that I would delete it on sight if I saw it. First of all, please see our Criteria for inclusion- we never allow entries for something that someone just made up, unless it's clearly in widespread use independent from its creator and is likely to be around after a year. Please also be aware that this is a dictionary, not an encyclopedia, so all the biographical background info and interview material from the creator have to go (the fact that it's basically self-promotion just makes it worse). We strongly discourage links to personal web pages/blogs, not to mention commercial sites. Basically, all that's permissible would be the language header, a very short etymology header & section, the part of speech header followed by the {{head}} template (this is the only place it belongs), followed by a real definition, not a description of the term. Quotes in durably-archived sources showing the term being used are permissible, with the bare minimum of links. See Entry layout for details. By the way, "#" can't be used in an entry name, for technical reasons.
In other words, 90 percent of your text and almost all of the links (which are what triggered the edit filter) are inappropriate for an entry here- this isn't a blog, magazine, encyclopedia or link-farm. You also have a number of formatting problems, typos/misspellings and grammatical errors which would have to be fixed. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:13, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
  • (too much edit conflict) @Anthoknees: I looked at the code of that abuse_filter and found out that the cause is your twitter links. --kc_kennylau (talk) 03:25, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
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