Wiktionary:Grease pit

Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit

September 2015

Double RSS postsEdit


Hello. I, the only person who uses RSS, would like to mention that each WotD seems to get posted twice on your feed (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/api.php?action=featuredfeed&feed=wotd&feedformat=atom). While I'm here, this also seems to happen to the Commons PotD feed (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=featuredfeed&feed=potd&feedformat=atom&language=en) but not the FWotD feed. Anyway, sorry if this is the wrong place for technical complaints or if saying 'feed' too many times has made you hungry. Thanks! EDIT: FWotD doing this too btw. —This comment was unsigned.

User:Yair rand/newentrywiz.js should not link to elements in a head wordEdit

This now redundant (or usually redundant) as headword modules automatically link to individual words of multi-word terms. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. --Yair rand (talk) 21:14, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Latvian adjectives with missing headersEdit

There are about 2300 Latvian adjective entries with two headword lines, for two homographs, where the second headword-line is not preceded by a header. It should be straightforward to find and fix all such entries: find adj}}\n\n\{\{head\|lv\|adjective form}} and replace }\n\n\{\{head\|lv\|a with }\n\n===Adjective===\n{{head|lv|a (some entries have been fixed since the last database dump; the initial }\n\n\{ weeds those out). (If needed I can supply an outdated list of ~2600 such entries, of which a few hundred have been fixed.) Can someone with a bot do this? - -sche (discuss) 04:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You overcomplicated the matter. Regex is not needed - a simple replace from
adj}}\n\n\{{head|lv|adjective form}} to
adj}}\n\n\===Adjective===\n{{head|lv|adjective form}}
does the job...--Dixtosa (talk) 17:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Module:la-noun, a certain section not showing up, and irrelevant editsEdit

I recently added a ‘verbal nouns’ row to Module:la-verb so that verbal nouns derived from Latin verbs would be shown in the verbs' conjugation tables. I noticed, however, that for certain verbs, such as abeo and indico (in both senses), it simply wasn't showing up when it should have been. I thought it might have been the result of sloppy coding, but I noticed that after I made minor edits to different sections of the section for Latin on each page, it started showing up (sure enough, if I went to edit each conjugation table and hit ‘Show preview’, it would show up as well). What's going on here? Esszet (talk) 21:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

It sometimes takes a little time for each page that uses the template to get updated. Another thing you can do is purge the page (if you have the clock enabled in Preferences > Gadgets > User interface gadgets, then you can purge the page by clicking the clock). --WikiTiki89 21:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Automated program to clean up names of mineralsEdit

Equinox created a large number of entries for minerals in this format. Although obviously each entry could use human attention, all entries of this kind could use two easy fixes: change the link to -ite into {{suffix||ite|lang=en}} (so at least it categorises) and change the context label from "mineralogy" to "mineral" (which displays the same way but again, categorises the entry correctly). Would anyone be willing to run this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:42, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

"Aliases" in HotCatEdit

Is it possible/desirable to modify HotCat to handle "aliases", without slowing it down too much? For instance, as discussed in WT:RFM#Category:Occupations, it would be useful if someone could type "Professions" and HotCat would know to convert that to "Occupations", or might at least add "Occupations" to the popup "autocomplete" list of categories you might be thinking of. It might also help with people not knowing whether to add "Category:American English" (if someone had to add it manually for some reason) or "US English" and things of that sort. - -sche (discuss) 03:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Category:Eastern EnglishEdit

This category is strange, and is probably the result of a recent change in Lua. Any ideas how to fix it? --Zo3rWer (talk) 20:48, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It's a result of "east" and "eastern" being defined in Module:labels. When and why did they creep in? They seem too broad to be useful. Are they useful, or can they be removed? If they're kept, the short-term solution seems to be to add "eastern Pennsylvania" etc as an alias to "Pennsylvania" and then change "lunch kettle" etc to use "eastern Pennsylvania" rather than "eastern|_|Pennsylvania", the way "NYC" is currently an alias of the "New York" state label (because I didn't think there were enough NYC-specific words to merit separating them from NY state's words).
CodeCat recently did something that created a whole bunch of these categories, things like Category:Javanese English when people referred to the Java programming language in {{context}}, and awkward constructions like Category:North Korean Korean instead of Category:North Korean. I'm reluctant to create categories for these oddities, so Special:WantedCategories is full of them. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
Why not create the silly things and make then subcategories of something? I intend to do something similar for all of the pages that are "wanted" more than 50 times. DCDuring TALK 22:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
  • No, they should certainly not be created but instead dealt with, especially situations like Category:North Korean Korean that are splitting categorisation messily. @CodeCatΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
    The problem is very general: top down creation of categories, often of excessive fineness and often using generic categories without regard to how individual topics, languages, PoSes, etc are subcategorized in the world outside of Wiktionary. It seems that we are doing violence to reality to reduce it to something that we can have an "elegant" (read simple) technical solution for. In light of the apparently insufficiently flexible architecture, I am skeptical that the problems will actually be solved rather than minimally patched. The silly categories could be created and subcategorized into some kind of category of shame, with sensibly named categories inserted manually. I suppose we have to appreciate that the straitjacket imposed by our systems doesn't cause even more silliness and awkward wording. DCDuring TALK 11:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Category:English words suffixed with -o-Edit

This is a MewBot-created category, three of whose four entries are my fault. How should -o- be correctly indicated, so that the category can be deleted? @CodeCatΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:39, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Presumably the same as the other categories in Category:English words by infix. DTLHS (talk) 00:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS: But it's an interfix, not an infix, and we wouldn't want it to behave like one either. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:28, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: See Category:English words by interfix then. --WikiTiki89 14:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Quick Accel questionEdit

Typical situation: there is an {l} wrapped in an #if to display an mdash if there is nothing to put in the {l}, otherwise display the term in the {l}.

Is it better to wrap the WT:ACCEL spans specifically around the {l} (inside the #if) or it doesn't matter and they can be wrapped around the whole thing? (I kind of suppose there is absolutely no diff but wanted to check.) Neitrāls vārds (talk) 12:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Just use {{head}}, it does all these things automatically. —CodeCat 15:26, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
CodeCat, I forgot to mention that this was in the context of inflection tables as opposed to headword line (and my orig. question can probably be disregarded altogether as there's probably zero difference.)
Also, can you add this to that page: User talk:Conrad.Irwin/creationrules.js#Please add (Moksha, Erzya, Latvian (nouns)? Or perhaps simply unprotect it, as I don't see how that page could have any appeal to vandals. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 22:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
For JavaScript, the protection is built in to the software and can't be taken off. That's a good thing too, because running scripts on a user's computer has a HUGE appeal to vandals. —CodeCat 23:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Min Nan "o͘"Edit

In POJ there is a letter that looks like an o with a dot at the upper right. Wikipedia uses o + combining character "U+0358 combining dot above right" (o͘), but on Wiktionary it is a mixture of either the above or o + "U+00B7 middle dot" (o·). This leads to issues like 圖#Pronunciation (tô͘; combining dot above right) not properly linking to tô· (middle dot), and red links that point to o·-bá-sáng (middle dot) and not o͘-bá-sáng (combining dot above right). Is there a way to fix this with a bot? —suzukaze (tc) 04:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Well theoretically that set of characters could appear in other valid contexts, so a bot probably wouldn't work. I can get you a list of pages and page titles where it occurs though. DTLHS (talk) 04:35, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c User:DTLHS/cleanup/min nan o DTLHS (talk) 05:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Cool. I forgot to mention that there can also be tone markings on the o͘ (ô͘, ó͘, ò͘, ō͘). I suppose they'd become "ô·, ó·, ò·, ō·". —suzukaze (tc) 05:09, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Alright, I can look for all of them. DTLHS (talk) 05:19, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
As DTLHS says, a bot might not work (perhaps if it were restricted to only editing spans tagged as Min Nan?); however, you could go through the list with AWB — that would probably be faster than going through it by hand. - -sche (discuss) 05:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
i've never been able to get awb to work on this computersuzukaze (tc) 05:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
The remaining instances relevant to Min Nan are mostly in the links to other-language Wiktionaries; should the links be removed? —suzukaze (tc) 02:54, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Category tree bugEdit

It looks like {{poscatboiler}} is not correctly subcategorizing by-language meta-categories. E.g. Category:One-letter words by language is turning up under Category:Terms by lexical property by language, and not under Category:Character counts by language; or Category:Terms derived from DC Comics by language is turning up under Category:Terms by etymology by language, and not Category:Terms derived from fiction by language. --Tropylium (talk) 15:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't see Category:One-letter words by language in Category:Terms by lexical property by language. —CodeCat 15:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
It wouldn't, because the change in the output of {{poscatboiler}} wouldn't propagate through to the categories without an edit. I just did a null edit on Category:One-letter words by language, and you should be able to see it in Category:Terms by lexical property by language now. This seems to be a case of all the intermediary links in the chain being skipped for umbrella categories, but not the language-specific ones. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:56, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I still don't see it, no matter how many null edits I do. —CodeCat 16:36, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I figured out where the disconnect is: the category in question is actually Category:Terms by lexical property subcategories by language. The confusion lies in the fact that the breadcrumbs are completely different for the umbrella categories as opposed to the language-specific ones, so it's easy to overlook that the one similar-looking part is different, too. If this restructuring was intentional, it wasn't handled very well. Everyone is used to the umbrella categories and the language-specific categories having exactly the same tree structure, so the obvious conclusion is that this is a bug. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:42, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
The "by language" categories never had umbrella categories, they always went into their own lumped-together category. Formerly, this category was decided by the specific category template being used, but then we merged them so it's just part of the data modules. The only exception has been the topical category tree, where the umbrella categories follow a structure parallel to the language-specific ones. —CodeCat 21:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Thorndyke and othersEdit

A male surname? I think a template or module needs editing. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Nope, just Wonderfolly. --Zo3rWer (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
By the way, in Czech, there are male and female surnames. --Zo3rWer (talk) 15:47, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
Not really, if it's anything like Russian: the surnames themselves are genderless, but there are male and female forms that match the gender of the person named (a man would be called by the masculine form, and a female would be called by the feminine form). It's very much like adjective gender in any number of languages: you say sabio for a man, sabia for a woman, and loco for WF... Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
It seems the Wikipedia article Grammatical gender in Spanish forgot to mention the WF gender. Maybe it's too advanced a topic for an online encyclopedia. But back to the topic (or rather, the previous digression): Some people, even for Russian, consider male and female surnames to be separate lemmas, but I cannot agree with this view (after all, a brother and a sister really have the same last name). --WikiTiki89 02:00, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I'd consider the feminine forms to be inflected forms of the masculine, just as with adjectives. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I seem to remember, when researching my Viking roots, that I have seen Norwegian surnames ending in -dottor as well as in -son. Would that be similar to the Russian usage? SemperBlotto (talk) 13:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
In some ways. In Russian the distinction is grammatical (for example, a surname ending in a consonant for the masculine nominative will usually have an -а added for the feminine nominative), but the Norwegian distinction of -son and -dottir is semantic, since these suffixes literally mean "son" and "daughter". The best way for you to understand the Russian system is with plurals, since English also sometimes pluralizes surnames (the Joneses) and in Russian, plural is just another gender/number class that also applies to surnames; thus, the same way you would use the plural form of a surname to refer to a family, you would use the feminine form of a surname to refer to a female member of the family. --WikiTiki89 14:13, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

template R:L&SEdit

Could someone please explain how this template works and show me where its parameters are explained? It seems one can but doesn't need to add the lemma e.g. R:L&S|pŏpŭlus. And why does it not work with that word? It should link to http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Dpopulus1 --Espoo (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

  • You just need to look at the template's documentation. The first parameter is displayed, the second is the page name on Lewis & Short. I have fixed the usages on populus. SemperBlotto (talk) 20:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing that. My naive expression was in fact asking where the documentation is, but i found it now. It'd be nice if your fix could be used to better explain what the template's documentation unsuccessfully tries, and instead now uses the unhelpful and confusing expression "search term". In fact i wouldn't have understood your explanation either without the example since i would never have guessed that the lemma's page name on L&S is populus1.
This is probably the wrong place to ask for help with editing, but could you fix my edit "rare" as a label for the rare variant "adagio" on adagium? --Espoo (talk) 20:53, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Module:pl-IPA (or maybe modules in general?)Edit

I'm trying to edit Module:pl-IPA, and I've noticed that when I try to do so, characters are occasionally entered one space behind that occupied by the cursor. I've never encountered this problem with other modules, but I highly doubt it would be specific to this one; is anyone else having this problem in this module or in any others? I'm using Safari on OS X 10.10.5. Esszet (talk) 17:20, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I've noticed this when dealing with some Unicode punctuation. You can always do your editing offline and then copy and paste it in though. DTLHS (talk) 17:53, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
I did in spite of that what I wanted to do…can it be fixed? Esszet (talk) 22:33, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS Can it? Esszet (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2015 (UTC)


Shouldn't this template also put articles in a category, like Category:Requests for definition? Purplebackpack89 20:25, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

It does- maybe you have hidden categories turned off? Category:Italian entries needing definition DTLHS (talk) 22:44, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Accelerated entry creation broken again?Edit

Some time around midday today Seattle time, green links stopped appearing. I was in the middle of creating several Japanese entries when this happened, and I was using the green links to accelerate the creation of hiragana and romaji entries.

I just checked the history at User:Conrad.Irwin/creationrules.js, which I think is the right code, and nothing has changed today. Can anyone help explain what's going on with our infrastructure, and (better yet) fix it? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

CodeCat made an edit based on code written by Neitrāls vārds, which broke all accelerated creation links; I then reverted the edit. (There's a discussion about this at the Tea room currently.) Green links appear to be working again, but not for Japanese, AFAICT, which is odd. Perhaps they can sort this out. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
  • What's even weirder, they were working, then CodeCat's edit happened and they didn't work, then you reverted and they did work, then *something* happened on some other page entirely and they stopped working again. “WTF” is the general impression I'm left with. Our infrastructure seems entirely too fragile. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Ooookay... Accelerated entry creation for Japanese appears to be mostly working, except in a few oddball corner cases.
Could someone have a look at 什麼#Japanese, elucidate why accelerated entry creation isn't working for the hiragana and romaji spellings listed in the POS headline, and fix the issue? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I still can't figure this out. Once again, pinging @CodeCat, Neitrāls vārdsΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

English plurals and "These entry templates may help when adding words"Edit

The "Plural" button on Special:Search creates pages in the obsolete Category:English plurals category. —suzukaze (tc) 20:51, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed in diff. Enosh (talk) 12:24, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

edittools borkage: newlines now non-functionalEdit

As a New! IMPROVED! bug that just started appearing today, newlines included in my User:Eirikr/edittools page no longer render correctly in the edittools dialog, nor do they insert correctly when using the edittools dialog, appearing as the black-diamond � character instead.

What is going on here? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:07, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Category for pjt-conj-laEdit

Somebody ought to add a category to the template {{pjt-conj-la}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

And {{pjt-conj-ra}} and {{pjt-conj-wa}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:10, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Added to Category:Pitjantjatjara verb inflection-table templates based of usage. Enosh (talk) 07:25, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Broken Latin templatesEdit

Entries such as omnis, vulgaris, officinalis, and benghalensis are currently showing a whole lot of wikicode where the declension table is meant to be. It's hard to tell who or what broke it. Is anyone working on fixing this? @CodeCat? @JohnC5? —Pengo (talk) 02:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed now. Thanks. —Pengo (talk) 10:01, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, is there a reason we have so much redundant wikicode in Module:la-adj/table? We ought to be keeping templates in the Template: namespace and calling frame:expandTemplate to use them (as I've done in Module:la-utilities). If la-adj/table was actually simplifying or generalizing something it might make sense, but it's just a text dump of a template into code, which offers little advantage and makes it much more difficult and error prone to edit. —Pengo (talk) 02:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

How would you handle the conditional inclusions? —CodeCat 19:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: [ping @Esszet] I kind of didn't want to reply because I didn't want to prescribe how to code when I'm not doing the coding, but I've been thinking about it, so these are just suggestions. Do what you like. But here's four possible ways I'd do it which I think are preferable to having a large block of wiki code in lua:
  1. Use the conditionals that already exist in wiki template syntax, or better yet, just use the existing high-level table templates (the ones which are used by other templates. These meta-templates is what I'll be referring to as just "templates" here). They might be a little ugly, but at least you don't have wrap all your wiki code inside Lua with \n's and quotes and stuff. And the templates are arguably clearer and easier to edit by mere mortals, or at least understandable by a large existing user base who already grok the wikicode template syntax. This is what I've done in Module:la-utilities. It uses frame:expandTemplate (search for it) to show the template using the exact same generic templates as the old way. e.g. {{Template:la-decl-noun-table}}
  2. A different approach: Do it all in lua, but follow the Don't repeat yourself mantra: e.g. supply with table-building function with a list of column and row headings, store formatting code in strings or functions which get re-used, and generate the table by looping through the rows and columns without repeating the the same wikicode over and over. This would be the most flexible approach. It would allow the same code to generate many kinds of declension tables, and you'd only have to work out how to do tricky things like footnotes once. This would probably be my preferred eventual approach but would take more effort to set up, and could make the templates more difficult to edit if the resulting framework wasn't flexible and easy to use.
  3. Or: Remove the conditionals entirely. In this case, the meta-template would be clearer if the locative row was always visible, but its value was a dash (—) to show that it doesn't have that declension. You could then make clean version of a template like {{la-decl-noun-table}} with no conditionals at all (as it would only be fed clean data from lua) (Personally, showing an empty locative row would be my preferred visual style regardless of which technical approach is taken, and I've thought that pre-lua, not just as excuse to code in a different way).
  4. If you really want to have the locative still be optional though, split the meta-templates in two: create a new template which contains the locative declension and one which doesn't. e.g. create a {{la-decl-noun-table-loc}} which always shows the locative row while using a different template when it's not to be shown. Advantage of being editable by anyone with zero lua coding and simpler wiki-syntax (it shouldn't even need messy {{#if:{...}}} if it's fed clean data from lua), disadvantage of creating more redundancy / similar templates. However, compared to the zillions of templates we need currently, it doesn't seem that bad. I originally only included this option for completeness, but it doesn't seem that bad now that I think about it.
Take whatever approach you like, but I hope these are helpful suggestions. If it works already, refactoring to something more elegant probably isn't a huge priority. Happy coding. —Pengo (talk) 07:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Turn italic into normal in CategoryTreeEdit

The documentation of Template:table:chess pieces/en uses #CategoryTree to display a list of similar categories at the end of the page. (chess pieces, colors, suits, etc.) That list is in italic, can it be normal (as in, font-style: normal;)? I tried editing MediaWiki:Common.css but was unable to do it. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Daniel Carrero
body[class*="page-Template_table"] .CategoryTreeLabel {
should work —suzukaze (tc) 07:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
and possibly
body[class*="page-Template_table"] .CategoryTreeLabel:before {
for fake css bullets because the plain list is plain —suzukaze (tc) 07:09, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
It works when I use that CSS code on Special:MyPage/common.css, but it does not work when I use the same code on MediaWiki:Common.css (diff). Why is that? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:48, 28 September 2015 (UTC) Nevermind, working great! Thanks! --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

extending sh-noun and other templates for multiple head parametersEdit

Could someone extend the sh-noun and other sh-* templates to work with multiple head parameters like it was done to sh-proper noun? It doesn't seem particularly complicated but I don't want to mess anything up as I'm not familiar with MediaWiki's templating syntax. Thanks. Fojr (talk) 15:15, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Declension tables and multimedia objectsEdit

It seems that declension tables cannot be placed horizontally in line with multimedia objects (see here). I'm using Safari on a Mac; could this be the same bug as that which causes there to be a gap between the language header and the first sub-header underneath it when there's a FWOTD template along with a multimedia object between them in the source code (see here)? Esszet (talk) 14:56, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed: diff. As you can see, it is not declension tables in general, but specific templates that for some reason added clear: both to their CSS. You will likely have to fix this in other Slovak declension templates. --WikiTiki89 15:47, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


This template needs repair (or something).

See Category:List templates for use of {{poscatboiler|en|list templates}}. DCDuring TALK 04:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

What seems to be the problem? {{poscatboiler}} works well with Category:English list templates, which are templates with specific lists of words in English. Category:List templates uses the same name but is for a few random templates that do something else, including some code for formatting different types of lists. I suggest renaming it to something else or just dumping the contents into Category:Templates in case the category is not very useful by itself. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 05:20, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant Category:English list templates. The supplementary lists, often very useful, for oldest edited member of the category and newest additions to the category are empty in fact whereas there certainly should be members. DCDuring TALK 06:41, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
True, I see the problem now. There is an extension called DynamicPageListEngine that would help with that, which has been mentioned in a previous discussion about this problem. I created Wiktionary:Votes/2015-09/Installing DynamicPageListEngine to propose installing it; the vote explains how it would fix the problem, too. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:22, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

'Summary' namespaceEdit

I notice that we have a "Summary:" namespace with 12 pages in it: Summary:User talk:Geofferybard/Re: Cite policy, Summary:User talk:Internoob//ɵ/, Summary:User talk:Internoob/Checked again, Summary:User talk:Internoob/Dzogchen: When I switched it from Tibetan to English, I get the Union Jack flying over ancient Tibetan words...doesn't seem right, Summary:User talk:Internoob/Lobachevskyian, Summary:User talk:Internoob/assistance..., Summary:User talk:Internoob/message, vintage, Summary:User talk:Internoob/norveçli, Summary:User talk:Vpovilaitis/Nauja tema, Summary:User talk:Vpovilaitis/test, Summary:Wiktionary:LiquidThreads testing/more dots, Summary:Wiktionary:Sandbox/yes. The associated talk namespace has a single page in it: Summary talk:Wiktionary:LiquidThreads testing/more dots. Does this namespace serve a purpose that talk pages don't? WT:NS says it's for "Summaries of discussions in pages using LiquidThreads"; is it an integral part of LT? - -sche (discuss) 00:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes. There's a "Summarize" link above every thread. Clicking on it opens an edit window for creating a Summary-namespace page. The text from that page then gets displayed after the words "Thread summary:" in the first message of the thread. It does look like nobody has used this feature in quite a while, though. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:35, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

No category in Russian for Orthodox Christianity?Edit

I was surprised to find out there's no such thing as Category:ru:Orthodox Christianity or similar. Could someone who understands the category system create it? Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 05:48, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

How about Category:ru:Eastern Orthodoxy? You don't have to completely understand the category system to work with it: I went to Category:en:Roman Catholicism and went to its parent category to see what was there. I saw that there was Category:en:Eastern Orthodoxy, but there was no Category:ru:Eastern Orthodoxy, so I created Category:ru:Eastern Orthodoxy by putting {{topic cat}} in it.
If I had needed to add a category to the module, I would have clicked on the edit link in the text of Category:en:Roman Catholicism, which would take me to its data module, copypasted the section for Roman Catholicism at the right place in the alphabetical order, and replaced all the details to make the new section. The only way you can go wrong if you don't change the syntax is to specify a parent category that doesn't exist, which will give you a module error. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:39, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. That works. I'll use your advice next time I need to create a category. Benwing2 (talk) 04:29, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

October 2015

Category:English timelines beginning in the 21th centuryEdit

Obvious problem is obvious; can anyone fix this? This, that and the other (talk) 02:41, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

So, the problem is "21th" where it should be "21st"? I'm going to fix that now. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. FYI, you can move categories these days, rather than deleting and recreating. This, that and the other (talk) 04:15, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I did not know that. Thanks for the info. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 04:27, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Idea for a vandalism filterEdit

This would take a bit of messing about with regular expressions, but I've noticed quite a common habit of drive-by vandalism by simply changing the language header (e.g. "German" to "Russian"). Equinox 15:17, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I suppose we could make this behavior generate a tag? L2-header-change or something. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:19, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
I would just prevent, because there's no way an anon would do that legitimately. If nothing else, there should be a filter for Ladin > Latin. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:40, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Changing language headers is quite the sport these days (as it has been for a long time). Mostly it's changing "English" to anything that sounds foreign, with "Spanish" and "Chinese" being quite common. Then there are the people from different places in the Third World changing "English" to whatever is spoken in their country. The "Latin" > "Ladin" changes happen consistently every month or so, by IPs from all over the place- which makes it look more like ignorance than vandalism. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:53, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I see IPs correcting old vandalism all the time- including L2 headers. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:49, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: Here we go again. It doesn't matter whether it's ignorance or vandalism — a filter to deal with it would save us a chance of the error slipping through. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
If it's possible to prevent anons from changing L2 headers while still allowing them to edit the rest of a page, go for it. Otherwise, I support a filter tagging anons' edits to L2 headers. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:33, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Regional labels that apply to more than one languageEdit

At Talk:nae, someone brought up the fact that {{label|sco|Doric}} puts the word into Category:Doric Ancient Greek and provides a link to w:Doric Greek. It should, of course, put the word into Category:Doric Scots and provide a link to w:Doric dialect (Scotland). Another label that covers multiple languages is "Ulster": there is Ulster English, Ulster Irish, and Ulster Scots. In this case, the categories work correctly, but the Wikipedia links all point to w:Ulster, when it would more helpful for them to point to w:Ulster English, w:Ulster Irish, and w:Ulster Scots dialects. Unfortunately, I don't know how to edit Module:labels/data/regional to fix these labels, and any others that may be similar. (The "Munster" and "Connacht" labels also point to the Wikipedia articles on the provinces of Ireland rather than the articles on the dialects.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:13, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

This is why I recently made a strict separation between regional labels and dialects in the data modules. Of course, that doesn't actually help in this situation, but I was aware of that then. The current system doesn't allow you to give language-specific data for labels, which is a big shortcoming. But it should be pretty easy to add this in. —CodeCat 17:49, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
I just realise that making language-specific labels bring some new difficulties. Currently, aliases of labels are defined language-agnostically. If we introduce language-specific information, we may run into the situation where an alias only applies for a given language, but not for others. For example, if we have a label "Northern German" defined only for German, and a label "Northern Germany" as an alias of it, then something's going to break when someone uses it with "nds" as the language. It would also give a nonsensical result if it were the other way around: if "Northern Germany" were the main label, then "Northern German" could be used for languages other than German. —CodeCat 17:59, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
What about making the labels themselves language-specific, e.g. instead of {{label|grc|Doric}} and {{label|sco|Doric}} we have {{label|grc|grc-Doric}} and {{label|sco|sco-Doric}}, and likewise {{label|en|en-Ulster}}, {{label|ga|ga-Ulster}}, and {{label|sco|sco-Ulster}}? We'd only need to do that for ambiguous labels; those that are unambiguous could keep their current names. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
That seems pretty pointless. We already provide the language in the template, why provide it a second time in the label? —CodeCat 18:52, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Because "[t]he current system doesn't allow you to give language-specific data for labels, which is a big shortcoming." —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:59, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but it's easy to allow language-specific data. The only difficulty is in the aliases. —CodeCat 23:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Can we at least do something promptly about the fact that of the 19 terms currently in Category:Doric Ancient Greek, 11 are Scots? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
To fix the immediate issue, create "Doric Scots" as a label. - -sche (discuss) 04:47, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
OK, I did that. Now Category:Doric Ancient Greek contains no Scots words and Category:Doric Scots is not empty. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
We do already have some labels with language-specific names, e.g. we have "Pomeranian Low German" (shortcut "Pomeranian LG") because I anticipated that bare "Pomerania"/"Pomeranian" could also apply to German, Polish, or the so-called Pomeranian languages. - -sche (discuss) 03:15, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Another thing to think about: regional varieties of earlier languages that develop into languages in their own right, and other types of change in regional terminology.
Really, though, our entire label system is a hopeless mess. Currently there's no way to distinguish geographically- or historically-based contexts from regional language varieties: it should be possible to have English entries with a context of "Germany" when they refer to German political parties without adding the entry to Category:German English, or to use "Classical" to tag English terms about Greek and Roman people and institutions from a couple of millennia ago without categorizing into Category:Classical English.
We might even be better off going to a three-way system, with the current Frankenstein-monster system for backward compatibility and to accommodate users who are used to it, a new dedicated context/topical system, and a new dedicated language-variety system (his would have the added benefit of easily allowing things like labels for terms about a regional lect that aren't in the regional lect). Normally, this kind of inconsistent, complicated setup would be something to avoid at all costs, but the current setup is so bad and at the same time so entrenched that it would seem to be the only way to achieve anything close to sanity. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:05, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Categorization of homonymous suffixesEdit

In cases where a language has two homonymous derivational suffixes - is there anything we could do for distinguishing these in categorization? For example, Category:Finnish words suffixed with -lainen currently mixes two homonymous but etymologically, semantically and morphophonologically distinct suffixes. --Tropylium (talk) 01:15, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

You can use the id= parameter to distinguish them. —CodeCat 06:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
On what? {{suffix}} does not seem to do anything with an id= parameter. --Tropylium (talk) 16:44, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
The parameters for {{suffix}} are all numbered according to which part they refer to. So you need id2= and such. —CodeCat 16:53, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

The pos=noun, pos=adjective, etc. parameter will distinguishing them in categorization. --Panda10 (talk) 12:32, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

That only works if they have different parts of speech, and even then it feels inferior to the id= method. —CodeCat 13:27, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

{{reflist}} tag not detected when savingEdit

The {{reflist}} tag is not detected when saving, resulting in this notice. —Skyllfully (talk) 23:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Do we even need that template? It seems rather complicated. —CodeCat 23:59, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

rip Special:WantedPages?Edit

Does anyone know why Special:WantedPages is no longer to be updated? It that a mediawiki decision?

I've found it a very handy indication of both actual wanted pages and of cruft generated by various templates using questionable techniques. DCDuring TALK 06:41, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Special:WantedCategories recently went for a week without updating, so it may just be a matter of reduced frequency rather than completely stopping. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:36, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


What's wrong with the Derived Terms in the French section of bras? Can someone fix it? SemperBlotto (talk) 14:25, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. {{der3}} doesn't like line breaks. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:30, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:senseid with preceding spacesEdit

A lot of entries use {{senseid}} without any spaces between it and the preceding #. This doesn't agree with our formatting, so I wonder if this is actually necessary. If it is, what can be done to change this? —CodeCat 18:54, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I removed a zero width whitespace which caused MW to put a space after it.-- 08:09, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Ok, but that doesn't answer my question... —CodeCat 12:22, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

"group=" parameter in tablesEdit

If no one objects, I'm going to rename the group parameter to the actual word that is being translated in tables, because I believe it's a little clearer this way, since basically every other parameter is the direct translation:

For instance, in Template:table:chess pieces/pt:

  • Current state:
{{table:chess pieces|lang=pt
|group={{l-self|pt|peça|peças}} de {{l-self|pt|xadrez}}
|queen={{l-self|pt|rainha}}, {{l-self|pt|dama}}
}}<noinclude>{{table doc}}</noinclude>
  • Proposed state (the line 2 changes):
{{table:chess pieces|lang=pt
|chess pieces={{l-self|pt|peça|peças}} de {{l-self|pt|xadrez}}
|queen={{l-self|pt|rainha}}, {{l-self|pt|dama}}
}}<noinclude>{{table doc}}</noinclude>

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:33, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

A good idea, if you can make it work. —CodeCat 19:51, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

{{vi-pron}} in Vietnamese napanEdit

{{vi-pron}} didn't work very well for napan... that guy 19:43, 10 October 2015‎ (UTC)}}

I got rid of the module error, but someone who knows Vietnamese should probably double-check that the pronunciation info is correct. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, thanks, that's the way it's pronounced. that guy 18:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Style for quotes and examples of word usesEdit

Recently I had an edition reverted (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=mesmerize&oldid=34546229&diff=prev). Who reverted it explained why it should be reverted, there is no question about that.

My discussion here is because I think this way to quote the use of words, followed by an example (but not quote) for this same word, without a visual sign or mark that something separate from the quote started it bad. If we use a list mark for the quote, we must use it for the separate things that come. The indent used makes the example start to the right of the "." for the quote is, which will make us naturally think the two are part of something.

Further, when the quote contains two or more poetry lines, we will not be able to (easily) tell, by looking at it, when the poetry ended and when the example started.

So, I think that examples should be numbered or marked with something visual (like "." or numbers) besides formatting it differently.

Just put the examples above the book citations (or, better, replace them with proper citations). Equinox 19:09, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Categories with invalid labelEdit

I made Category:en:Cities in Australia not too long ago. Is there a way to fix this "Categories with invalid label" error? --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:39, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

"SoFixIt", as they say in some wikis. How are your Lua/Scribunto skills? The problem is somewhere in Module:category tree. Don't be discouraged that the module is in Category:Templates and modules with outdated documentation. DCDuring TALK 16:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
What are you talking about? The documentation is right there at {{poscatboiler}}. —CodeCat 17:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
The problem is that User:Daniel Carrero split the place names sub-module, which made most of the links in the place name categories go to the wrong module (someone will have to do null edits on them to correct that), so the usual method doesn't work. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:35, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
That is not correct. The problem is that "cities of Australia" was not in the list of labels supported by {{topic cat}}. The same error will happen if you try using any other unlisted label. It is true that I split the place names sub-module, because the list was getting too long in my opinion, still this didn't break any categories that were working before the split. I see that you fixed the problem with Category:en:Cities in Australia by adding the label properly. (diff) Adding the label works regardless of the actual subpage you used, it could be Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names or Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names old or any other. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:03, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but if you try to find the appropriate submodule by clicking on the edit link in, say, Category:en:Cities in Switzerland, you end up at Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names, which is the wrong module. At first glance, it looks like all the non-Brazilian information has been deleted. Searching through the data submodules can be very confusing and time-consuming if you're not familiar with how they're arranged, so the edit link is a very useful feature. Having it go to the wrong place can make a simple task very difficult. It's easy enough to force the link to update by doing a null edit on the categories that use Module:category tree/topic cat/data/Place names old, but that's rather tedious without a bot, or at least AWB- and first you have to realize there's a problem. I pinged you on this because I wanted to make you aware of the problem, not to criticize you. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Effectively we have an unelected technocracy that controls labels and many other aspects of Wiktionary. The current, technocratically protected system is is a major reversion from the flexible, learn-from-users system that existed before the "reform" of the {{context}} system. The former system showed no errors when the context label was not on the approved list, standardized labels when warranted, and added labels based on user choice. By comparison, the current system seems Stalinist, designed to exclude user input. I realize that the former flexible system may have been to much for the skills available when Lua arrived, but I would have thought that enough learning had taken place so that the weaknesses (presumably not intentional) of the existing system could be corrected. DCDuring TALK 20:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
The current system is at least as flexible as what we had, since it had to be backwards compatible. Just because you can't be arsed to learn how it works, doesn't mean we should all revert back to the old, convoluted template system. —CodeCat 20:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
It is only flexible in the sense that the illuminati can, when they choose, allow new labels. The previous system allowed all new labels offered by users. The more potentially controversial standardization was offered for review. DCDuring TALK 23:44, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
What are you talking about? You can create labels whenever you want to, just like in the old system. —CodeCat 23:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
For now, Category:en:Cities in Australia uses {{topic cat}}, which invokes Module:category tree, which is in Category:Templates and modules with outdated documentation. DCDuring TALK 17:39, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Why should a topical category have been governed by something related to parts of speech ("pos") anyway? DCDuring TALK 17:41, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Fine, {{topic cat}} then. It's still the same. —CodeCat 17:46, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
The documentation is rather intimidating for those who don't know anything about modules, and finding anything in the submodules isn't easy. It's normally possible to talk people through adding things by having them go to a related category, click on the edit link, copypaste the code for the related category into the correct place for the new code and change the details- except for the problem I mentioned above. At any rate, I added the category to the module, once I realized what was going on. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:51, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Well, you're welcome to improve the documentation if you can. —CodeCat 17:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Why don't those who perpetrated the templates and modules document their own work. If they aren't willing to do so, why don't they play elsewhere. DCDuring TALK 20:30, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Why don't you come up with a more constructive comment, instead of whining about it all the time? You complain, but you never change anything nor propose any concrete changes. If you're not prepared to put in the work, don't complain about those who do. —CodeCat 20:49, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
I repeat my constructive suggestion: "Why don't those who perpetrated the templates and modules document their own work." Presumably they know it best and are aware of the expressed user need and of the possible need for subsequent modification. I think it is the height of irresponsible amateurism to radically "reform" our technical infrastructure often according to individual whim and fail to document those reforms, let alone seek some kind of permission to impose regression of capability. DCDuring TALK 23:44, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
There has been no regressive capability, and the new system is documented better than the old system ever was. You are talking through your hat. Also, "perpetrated" is not constructive. —CodeCat 23:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Thank you fixing the category. And while at it, can somebody fix Category:en:Cities in Spain, Category:en:Cities in Canada, and Category:en:Cities in United States of America? Thank you in advance. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 07:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done, but I moved the US category from Category:en:Cities in United States of America to Category:en:Cities in the United States of America: for the US, we use "the" when the country name is in running text, but not otherwise (the parent category is Category:en:United States of America). Chuck Entz (talk) 13:36, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

German declension and conjugation templatesEdit

Hello, I need some help with fixing some of the declension and conjugation templates used for German verbs and nouns.
I've just created Spesen and as you can see in the declension table the dative form is incorrect. Could somebody please fix this by adding a parameter to omit an -n in dative for pluralia tantum? Thanks in advance.
As to verbs: yesterday I've created werweissen and in the second person singular indicative there needs to be an -s- omitted, so that the form be identical to the third person singular and second person plural indicative. And there needs to be additional parameters in all of the conjugation templates for defective verb forms used impersonally such as ereignen (→ see wikt:de:ereignen), geschehen (→ see wikt:de:geschehen), etc. These verbs normally only occur in the 3rd person singular, in the past participle and in the infinitive form. Some other of these defective verbs can be used in the 1st, 2nd, etc. person BUT only in the figurative sense (regnen, schneien, etc.). However, in these entries the conjugation should also be corrected since I think an usage note would do as well to discribe the figurative usage. — Best wishes, Caligari ƆɐƀïиϠ 18:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed the dative plural of Spesen and the second person singular of werweissen. The other problem is beyond me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:49, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much. — Best wishes, Caligari ƆɐƀïиϠ 14:38, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

redlink on Special:BookEdit

Special:Book contains a redlink to Help:Book which has been deleted. A Certain Lack of Grandeur (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Strange behaviour on szóEdit

On this page, there is this line:

; Expressions:

On first glance, this seems rather obvious: a definition term tag ";" followed by some text, ending with a colon. But as you can see in the actual page, the software sees it rather differently, as the colon is omitted. The mwparserfromhell parser that MewBot uses also parsed it differently; it treated the colon as a definition data/indentation tag, as if the colon was at the start of a line. I'm going to guess that mwparserfromhell is treating it correctly, and that this specific bit of Wikitext is actually equivalent to:

; Expressions

Which is clearly not what was intended. There are probably quite a few instances of this on pages, which would presumably need to be found and fixed.

Another question we could ask is whether the ; should even ever be in entries. In most cases where I saw it, it was used (abused?) to create bold text, but there are better ways of doing that. —CodeCat 13:12, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

If someone can provide me a list of such Hungarian entries, I'd be glad to correct it. --Panda10 (talk) 13:29, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
It's not just Hungarian entries, though. So far, I've come across:
And that's just the tip of the iceberg. —CodeCat 13:39, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
This is the standard interpretation of ; [...] : in MediaWiki; see [1] and observe how ; item : definition renders there. The semicolon is supposed to introduce a definition list; the first colon in a line that starts with a semicolon is interpreted as a new line starting with a colon. If that's not the behavior we want, we need to write the page differently. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:43, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
I corrected the Hungarian entries. I used a list from an old database dump. --Panda10 (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

template:lt-noun (Lithuanian nouns)Edit

Hi — Lithuanian noun declensions are identified in a way very similar to Latin, as reflected in the template, thus I suggest modifying this to include the Genitive (instead of the plural), the declension type/class (I–V), or maybe both. — Ivadon (talk) 14:49, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Abuse filter triggered on quismEdit

@Kephir The abuse filter is triggering on this page, saying that there is an interwiki link to a page whose name is different from the current page. The page itself contains [[doi:, which is not an interwiki link, but the abuse filter thinks it is. Can this be fixed? —CodeCat 18:03, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems we need a list of explicit exceptions and add the code doi to it. --WikiTiki89 20:40, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Although doi is a valid language code and theoretically could have a Wiktionary in the future. I wonder what WikiMedia will do with the doi prefix if that happens. --WikiTiki89 20:42, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps capitalise it "DOI"? Equinox 20:42, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
Actually, they do have a Wikipedia in the incubator that uses the code dgo. --WikiTiki89 20:44, 16 October 2015 (UTC)
So, can anyone fix this? The filter may have to be disabled otherwise. —CodeCat 22:00, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Why isn't "equestrianism" a recognized topic label?Edit

There is a topic category "equestrianism" and I want to use this in a Russian word, but writing {{lb|ru|sports|equestrianism}} doesn't add the word to Category:ru:Equestrianism. There's no current Russian category for equestrianism but that didn't seem to be a problem with e.g. the topic category "carpentry", which automatically put a term into Category:ru:Carpentry even though that category didn't exist at the time. I can't see anything in the source code that triggers these topic labels. Benwing2 (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

There was no data for that label in Module:labels/data. DTLHS (talk) 19:33, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm a bit surprised that the code doesn't automatically recognize topic categories as labels. Benwing2 (talk) 20:33, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. DCDuring TALK 21:12, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Generic equivalent of inh and bor?Edit

I like {{inh}} and {{bor}} but they don't cover all cases involving {{etyl|FOO|BAR}} {{m|BAR|BAZ}}. Can someone (e.g. CodeCat) create such a thing (if it doesn't already exist)? Benwing2 (talk) 19:27, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The generic equivalent is just to use {{etyl}} and {{m}}. —CodeCat 19:55, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing2 I have been thinking of creating an alternative template to {{etyl}}, one which does what you say. I'm not sure what to call it though. Since the template is for generic "derived from" categories, maybe something like {{der}} or {{deriv}} would work. The latter name is already in use though, and the former might be confused with {{der3}}. If all else fails, {{etyl2}} is also an option, but not a good one. —CodeCat 13:28, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, You could call it {{dfr}} (= "derived from") or some variant, or {{etm}} or {{em}} (= "etymological mention", a combination of {{etyl}} and {{m}}). {{em}} doesn't seem bad to me as it reads like a variant of {{m}}, which it is. Benwing2 (talk) 13:37, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I renamed {{deriv}} to {{derivsee}}, to make it match {{suffixsee}} better. So now {{deriv}} is also an option. I am still partial to using {{der}} for the shortcut though, and {{derived}} as the full name. This matches {{inherited}} and {{borrowed}}. And {{der}} is also one letter shorter than {{etyl}}, which will probably please people who are picky about every letter they have to type. —CodeCat 13:47, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with {{der}}. Benwing2 (talk) 01:05, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Another possibility is {{ety}}. Benwing2 (talk) 01:06, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
BTW thank you for putting the languages in the more logical order in {{inh}} and {{bor}}. I always get confused by the order of {{etyl}}. Benwing2 (talk) 01:07, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I've now created {{der}} and {{derived}}. I haven't written documentation yet, but it works the same as {{inh}}. —CodeCat 13:34, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. One thing I noticed is that it doesn't accept - as the first language, which would be equivalent to {{etyl|FOO|-}} {{m|FOO|BAR}}. Benwing2 (talk) 22:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
That was intentional, as such usage doesn't actually indicate any derivation but just shows a Wikipedia link. I didn't think it was fitting. —CodeCat 23:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps we should then have {{cog}} (cognate) or {{cf}}. --WikiTiki89 23:59, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Or just a generic template for including the language name with a link, without saying if it's a cognate. —CodeCat 00:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
That's what I meant, but the template could still be named {{cog}} or {{cf}}. After all, {{l}}/{{link}} is not only used for "linking". --WikiTiki89 00:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:catfix not working for some categoriesEdit

(Notifying Yair rand, Dixtosa): The template {{topic cat}} calls {{catfix}}, so you'd expect entries in a category to be language-tagged and linked to the proper section. But in Category:nl:Cities in the Netherlands, this isn't being done. I also noticed that it's not working in any of the other "cities in" categories. But there is no problem with Category:nl:Capital cities. Does anyone with JavaScript knowledge have any ideas? —CodeCat 21:59, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

{{catfix}} works only when the first argument it expects (i.e. language code) is passed. In the {{topic cat}} it is not passed if it is invoked without the language parameter. --Dixtosa (talk) 09:38, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
That is kind of obvious now that you said it. It means that we'll have to integrate {{catfix}} into the modules, so that it can be called once the module has extracted the language from the category name. —CodeCat 13:25, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Why is my edit being flagged as spam please helpEdit

why am I not able to save edits, this was what I wrote

===Muslim by Choice===
{{head|en|muslim by choice}}
# A person born in a non-muslim family who accepts Islam as his/her religion out of personal choice
# The term was coined by a blogger named Ali, for new members of the muslim society who are generally referred to as reverts or converts. In order to honour their Choice and sentiments.
#*'''2015''', Ali, ''Tafsir-i-Ali Journey of a Muslim by Choice'', http://tafsiriali.com, page: Neither a Convert nor a Revert, I am simply a muslim by choice
#*:I appeal to all that please do not call us converts or reverts we are simply "Muslims by choice".
* {{sense|}} {{l|en|Revert}}, {{l|en|convert}}

—This unsigned comment was added by Tafsiriali (talkcontribs).

You probably were tagged because you were a new editor posting a link to an outside web page, which is the way most spammers and spambots operate- and really, you shouldn't need to post a link.
Please read our Criteria for inclusion: if it's not attested in use independently at least three time times in durably-archived sources over a span of more than a year, you shouldn't create an entry for it. We can temporarily set aside the "more than a year" part if it looks like it will be met eventually, but web sites aren't durably archived.
We're a descriptive dictionary: we document how language is actually used, not how people would like it to be. Whether a newly-coined term is good, bad or really, really bad (the last is by far the most common), we won't be interested in it until it's caught on and in use by people not connected to the original coiner. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:55, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Anyway, "Muslim by choice" is SOP so we shouldn't have it as an entry.​—msh210 (talk) 14:48, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

complicated new template finally released after hours of workEdit

Hi there. I've been working hard over the last few days creating a new template for invariable Spanish adjectives. It's at Template:es-adj-inv, and if anyone can improve it, I'd appreciate it. It's still got bugs in it, despite weeks of fiddling and improving. Perhaps it should be somehow merged into Template:es-adj, although such a feat of merging would be epically difficult. I hope my months of creating this template will pay off, and it'll widely used by all Spanish editors. --Zo3rWer (talk) 14:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

It would be a shame to put years of coding to waste. --Zo3rWer (talk) 14:24, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
You expect Spaniards to use something this complicated?! WurdSnatcher (talk) 14:30, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree; it needs a documentation subpage (Template:es-adj-inv/documentation) to illustrate how to use it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:term - omitting the 1st parameter and the lang= parameter too?Edit

Just a note: It seems people have been omitting the 1st parameter in {{term}} to generate italicized text without a link.


  • {{term||example|lang=en}} returns: example

This usage is not documented. Is it acceptable? If the answer is yes, then I am going to document that use.

Even so, I've seen that there's people omitting the lang= parameter in this case, presumably because there's no link in the first place, but this could be problematic because of "the proper script and formatting conventions for the language in question", as the documentation puts it. The omission of language code causes the entry to be categorized into Category:term cleanup, regardless of existence (thus linking) or omission (thus unlinking) of the 1st parameter.

I've found this because I'm currently in the process of cleaning up Category:term cleanup manually per this discussion, so I guess the best course of action is adding the correct language codes even to unlinked entries as I mentioned, for the reasons above. See this diff. Feel free to discuss. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 19:32, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

That's exactly what I do too, so I'm hoping it's right. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:32, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, there are multiple reasons why language codes are useful even when there is no link. --WikiTiki89 20:59, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

In the entry Bart, what should be the language code used here?

from West Germanic *{{term||bardha}}

--Daniel Carrero (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Is there any reason to use the term template in this case? DTLHS (talk) 22:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
We don't have a code for Proto-West Germanic; in such cases you can probably use und. However, in this case, I'd rather just leave that step out since there's no consensus among linguists as to whether there ever was a "Proto-West Germanic", and there's no harm in saying the OHG word comes straight from PGmc. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Proto-West-Germanic is (or should be) considered a dialect of Proto-Germanic. So use the code "gem-pro". --WikiTiki89 22:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I've found another odd case: the entry Canuck, in the collapsible Etymology text:

or another Canadian Aboriginal ending like {{term||-uc}}, {{term||-uq}}, or {{term||-oc}}
has also been thought to come from Iroquoian {{term|Canuchasa||hut}}

Since there it no proto-language, I am going to use "und" for those. Feel free to discuss or propose something different. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

  • I'm confused -- why would anyone use {{term}} when there is no such term to link to, nor indeed any language-specific formatting (since there is no language identified)? In the Canuck etymology example, the Canadian Aboriginal endings are only italicized. Shouldn't these just use ''...''? Inserting the template produces longer wikicode, and increases the server load (albeit marginally) by requiring the template call. These are both negatives, as I currently understand it.
Could someone explain the use case here? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:03, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Should I just convert these cases into ''...''? That'd be fine by me. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:07, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
If they're mentions of words, then it's still useful to tag them as such. I'm not a fan of reverting to raw, meaningless wikicode. —CodeCat 00:17, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Come to think of it, CodeCat is right, italic is just the standard formatting for terms in Latin script, which people can change on their accounts by editing Special:MyPage/common.css. If we reverted terms into raw, meaningless text, we would lose that functionality. Also, there's the possibility of changing the standard formatting into something else in the future.
For that reason, if there's no better idea, I'm going to continue using lang=und when there's no proto-language code I could use; that is, I'm not going to convert them into raw text. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 02:24, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
  • @CodeCat: I agree with the idea of semantically tagging term mentions. My comment above was prompted in part by concerns I've read about here in the past, where too many calls to templates can cause problems on the server side.
Is that not an issue for {{term}}? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:02, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Pages typically transclude linking templates dozens or even hundreds of times, when you consider how many uses of {{t}} are in a typical translation table. {{m}}/{{term}} is about equal in terms of resource usage. —CodeCat 22:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

io-adj for Category of Ido LemmasEdit

{{io-adj}} ought to be updated to include Category:Ido lemmas. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 17:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Preventing Name-Category Stupidity From a Certain IP UserEdit

We've been getting a lot of edits from time to time that consist of:

  1. Adding "English xyz names from <language>" categories to entries that have nothing that says that they're names derived from that language
  2. Creating entries that consist of very little beyond the unformatted headword and a name category.
  3. Creating name categories without any usable content, or not following our naming schemes.

These edits aren't random: they're all the work of IPs that geolocate to Charter Communications in w:Livingston, Tennessee (except for, which geolocates to Twin Lakes Telephone Co-op in neighboring w:Cookeville, Tennessee). As to whoever is doing this:

I think we need to come up with one or more edit filters to stop these edits. To start with, we could disallow categories containing "English" and "names" which are added to mainspace entries not containing "==English" and "===Proper noun", or something along those lines. Also, maybe disallow mainspace entry creations that have the same characteristics that fail the "no L2-L3" filter, but also have a name category in them. Another possibility would be disallowing certain types of edits made by IPs within the ranges of the IPs above (they all seem to be varying only within the last 8 bits). I don't know if we can catch all their bad edits, but I think we can disrupt their editing so badly that they'll be forced to either quit or to learn about our requirements. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)


The entry has a rather presriptive point of view (Wiktionary:Tea_room/2015/September#neger, néger) and unjustifiedly got 'closed' from editing:

"You do not have permission to edit this page, for the following reason: [note: no reason is given]
This page has been protected to prevent editing or other actions."

So, please 'unclose' it. (If needed, e.g. in case of too much vandalism, it could be changed into an entry which IP users can't edit, but I guess that's not needed.) -Rdm571 (talk) 12:52, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

The page was protected by an admin, which is a policy matter, not a technical issue- so this doesn't belong here. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:35, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
It can't be added - IMHO that's a technical issue. Anyway, where does it belong? -Rdm571 (talk) 14:28, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
The Tea Room is the place to discuss changes to specific words or entries. (The Beer Parlour would be the place to make a general discussion about protection policy.) What changes do you think should be made to the entry? I protected it because of the number of drive-by edits, without discussion, by IPs and new users who claimed it was an unoffensive modern word, which materially misleads readers since references agree that the word is, in fact, dated and offensive and discriminatory. - -sche (discuss) 16:33, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
0. One IP user who made an misleading edit referred to Duden. Duden changed their site recently (e.g. they added an English-German dictionary). So, it's not easy to judge whether the IP was right or not. At least Duden could have irritated and mislead the user. E.g. in case of Idiot Duden states in the lead "Gebrauch: umgangssprachlich abwertend", and in case of Depp Duden states next to the meaning: "([...] abwertend)". In case of Neger this is not present. Only further below there is a longer note ("Besonderer Hinweis").
1. I doubt that a block is justified. It's common practice to edit without discussing every change, e.g. you didn't discuss your edit with the comment "someone incorrectly removed this context label back in February" too. (From February to September there were no objections, so one could call the edit from February "consensus", can't one?) If there was an edited war then it could be blocked temporarily, or if there was IP user vandalism then it could be blocked for IP users. But blocking it in general and because of that reason?
2. The protection note should give a reason or some useful link where to discuss the entry. In the current form it rather looks like "This entry shall have my POV and I don't want this entry to be changed, thus as I'm an admin I block it".
3. As you wrote, you don't like to add references. So the lack of references for the old usage notes prior to 24 October 2015 shouldn't be dealed with blocking the entry and changing the notes, but rather by a discussion or an unblocked entry which asks users to add references (like with a comment in the usage note section: <!-- Please add references for any statements made -->).
4. A reference you added isn't always neutral: Duden is known for changing "problematic" words. E.g. at Duden it is "googeln: mit Google im Internet suchen, recherchieren" (searching with Google). That might be the literal and original meaning. But the actual meaning often is "searching with a search engine". Even newspapers mentioned this change, e.g. Focus: Markenschutz: Google ließ Duden-Eintrag ändern. Anyway, Duden says something different than the current usage notes. Usage notes: "In modern speech, Neger [...]". Duden: "im öffentlichen Sprachgebrauch". That is, Duden does not say that Neger is always a "bad" word nowadays, and "im öffentlichen Sprachgebrauch" might very well be "were politcal correctness is in force".
5. The old usage notes were unsourced, but anyway they should be correct. In case of the first part, "used to be OK", it should be possible to add sources. Though, it's not as easy as adding the 'political correct' sources: If a word is "bad", then dictionaries usually tell so. If a word is not "bad", then dictionaries usually don't tell anything like "this word is neutral and not 'bad'". So, older dictionaries could be considered sources for the neutral meaning, as they don't have a note like "this word is bad" and as a meaning like "black person" isn't "bad" per se. As one could reject that, one could add many examples with a neutral (or maybe even positive) meaning. Possible examples could be scientifical, philosophical or political texts (e.g. if they are from Marxists demanding equality) or children's books (like Pippi Langstrumpf). Also products like "Negerkuß" should convey a neutral meaning: If Neger would be "bad", it would be very likely that they would have less sales, thus the company should have used a neutral or positive word. B-Tight's "Neger Neger" should even be a positive - even though it's racists - example from the 21st century. Also, even "GRA" ("Stiftung gegen Rassismus und Antisemitismus" - actuall not a neutral source) states: "Vordergründig war Neger ein neutraler Begriff."
6. "(now dated and derogatory, ethnic slur) negro, black: nigger". That's kind of misleading as it rather sounds like "Neger" always meant and means "nigger" and always was an ethnic slur. Even GRA states: "im englischen Sprachraum [wurden] die Begriffe «Negro» als «neutrale» Bezeichnung und «Nigger» als rassistisches Schimpfwort gebraucht." - that is, English negro was neutral and nigger "bad". So, it's most likely more appropriate to have two meanings in the entry "Neger": 1. (now dated) negro; 2. (derogatory) nigger". That could also make more sense considering synonyms: "Nigger" is a synonym of sense two, not of sense one, and "Mohr" is a synonym of sense one, not of sense two. Though it could be that not all synonms can be splitted like that.
7. "Synonyms: [...] Farbiger, Afrodeutscher". That aren't synonyms, at least in the strict sense of the word.
  • Farbiger is a hypernym refering to all non-whites, e.g. it can also refer to yellows or Asians.
  • Besides Afrodeutscher there are many more Afro- terms like Afroamerikaner. So Afrodeutscher can at best be a hyponym with a meaning like "Neger living/born in Germany".
8. If one is pedantic, than the meaning "black" and the synonym "Schwarzer" aren't synonyms too, at least not always. In older lexica (early 20th century) one can find explanations like this: "Neger, weiße, am Albinismus (s. d.) leidende Neger." That is: not all Neger are black, some are whites (albinos). Of course, this could also be an own meaning, like "1. (refering to phenotype) black person; 2. (refering to genotype) negro". Then Obama could be a Neger in sense one, as he is 'black', but wouldn't be a Neger in sense two, as he is only 'half-black'.
9. It's doubtful, that "Negerant" is derived from "Neger". The German Wiktionary gives another explanation, and so does the German Wikipedia ("neger (Adjektiv)").
10. There are more derived terms and hyponyms: Albino-Neger, Negerbrauch, Neger-Englisch/Negerenglisch, Negerfrau, Neger-Holländisch/Negerholländisch, Negerjunge, Negerkind, Negerkultur, Negermädchen, Negersprache, ...; maybe also (rarely) Negerpsyche.
Now also posted a link to this discussion on the entry's talk page, the information desk and the tea room - did I miss anything?
-Rdm571 (talk) 22:39, 27 October 2015 (UTC) and 18:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Asterisk (*) - inside or outside {{m}}Edit

See this diff.

I changed this:

*{{term||disfidare|renounce one's faith}}

Into this:

{{m|la||*disfidare|renounce one's faith}}

I.e., when I edit the {{m}} in entries to add the language code, I am also moving the asterisk inside the template as part of the word.

Rationale: Arguably, I suppose it is "part" of the word as I said. Moreover, with reconstructed languages, if you try to type "*{{m|gem-pro|stīganą}}" it generates an error because there's no asterisk within the template, making you rewrite this as "{{m|gem-pro|*stīganą}}", so using the asterisk always is a way of making the whole system more consistent.

Also, hypothetically, if we decide to use our CSS pages to format the terms differently (example: making the terms appear bigger, or bold, or with a different color, for some reason), I suppose it makes sense formatting the asterisk together with the rest of the word. I am using CSS myself to spot uses of {{term}} without language codes and I find it a bit weird having the asterisk singled out, without any of the special formatting that appers to me. (as per User:Daniel Carrero/vector.css)

Feel free to discuss if I should do it differently. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Putting the asterisk inside makes it link to the appendix. Since unattested words should be in the appendix, the asterisk should be on the inside. However, another question might be whether the asterisk should be inside or outside the generated link, but I have no opinion about that. --WikiTiki89 18:59, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

A page does not appear in some categories.Edit

The page vodorovnost should appear in Category:Czech compound words, Category:Czech words interfixed with -o- (because of the coumpound template) and Category:Czech words suffixed with -ost (added manually). These categories appear at the bottom of the page, but the page does not appear in the categories. What could be the problem? Jan Kameníček (talk) 21:57, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes it takes a while for the software to update the categories. This should resolve itself soon. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:01, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
I know, but this seems different, because a) it is already 3 days after the categories were added, b) categories which I added to some other pages later than these were updated immediately. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes it helps if you go to the entry, mouse over "More", and select "Null edit"; then go to the category page, mouse over "More", and select "Purge". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
When I mouse over "more", I get just one choice: move. There is no choice of Null edit or Purge. Perhaps only admins have this feature enabled. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:23, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
You can also click edit and save the page without changing anything. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:26, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
I see, thanks for a good advice.
Now I also see that the categories are updated, perhaps because you have purged it - thanks! I do not understand, why this page had to be purged while others not, but I am happy it is OK now. Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
My guess is that when you saved the page the WM servers were overloaded and the update to the categories’ cache didn’t follow through, even though the changes to the page did. Very rarely this happens to pages’ caches as well. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:44, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
(e/c) Purging often does not work, but null edits work. If there is no option to do a null edit, just do one manually (i.e. edit and save the page with no changes). Being there after three days is not concerning, categories sometimes take months to update and in some cases never get updated until the pages are edited. The developers don't seem to want to do anything about this. --WikiTiki89 22:28, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Linking to Wikipedia on one's profileEdit

I tried to link to my Wikipedia profile so as not to repeat myself. It is disallowed by this overzealous grease pit daemon:

Check out my Wikipedia profile.


Warning: This action has been automatically identified as harmful.
Unconstructive edits will be quickly reverted,... 

Zezen (talk) 22:46, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I added the text above to your page. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:48, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, it works now. Wiktionary users can bug me there, too, about my edits. Zezen (talk) 01:21, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Two ways of avoiding the abuse filter that flagged your edit: make some edits (the filter blocks very new users from adding external links, because they're usually spam), or use a wikilink (like that) rather than an external link. - -sche (discuss) 04:19, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Problem with {{l}}Edit

pos= does not work when the parameter contains a hyphen. See in Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/keh₂-, with pos=ye-present. This used to work before. --Vahag (talk) 09:45, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly, even changing the hyphen to &#45; doesn't fix it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:19, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
It’s because the page Template:pos ye-present has been created, but doesn’t do anything. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:23, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
@DCDuring, why did you create that template? --Vahag (talk) 13:14, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
It looks like an attempt to reduce the overload in Special:WantedTemplates, but that strategy leads to problems like this when templates can take the names of other templates as parameters and use ifexist-type logic to weed out non-existent ones. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
Chuck is correct. I have long thought that the practice depending on "wanted" templates was evil. But "wanted pages" is no longer being updated anyway, so there's no point.
If we want similar results we need to process the dump. The first thing would be to process the dump to aggregate missing terms of a given language used in {{m}}, {{l}}, and {{term}} and any descendants or variants. The more extensive processing of all linked terms to get the true equivalent of wanted pages is more tedious. DCDuring TALK 16:49, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
I added some content to the page; it’s working now.
Anyway, the current POS-markup system reminds me of the maintenance nightmare that the standalone context templates were. Maybe we should rework it into a data module. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:22, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
I agree, but I wonder if we even need the extra logic in this case. —CodeCat 14:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Hindi IPAEdit

I made some mess with with Hindi IPA module and test cases, can someone please take a look if I haven't caused any issues? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:25, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I got the test to work, but it’s failing. — Ungoliant (falai) 02:47, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for that! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:10, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

AutoWikiBrowser: Username "MglovesfunBot" already existsEdit

I have a new computer and I'm trying to log into to AWB but I'm getting the 'error' message 'Username "MglovesfunBot" already exists'. Err yes, I used to be able to access my account from more than one computer, but apparently not now? Why (out of curiosity) and what do I do about it? Surely there has to be something more practical than creating a second bot account. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:48, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

You might get more feedback on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser --Malyacko (talk) 11:48, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Reducing wanted categoriesEdit

Should we have a catboiler for categories of the form "FOO-ish BAR-ish", e.g. "German English" or "Mecklenburgisch Low German"?

Also what about Category:pt:Municipalities in Portugal with 304 members? Benwing2 (talk) 20:53, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Why do we need a boiler? Just create the category and manually place it under Category:Regional English or Category:Regional Low German. --WikiTiki89 21:02, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
There are enough of these categories that I think it's useful to have a catboiler to standardize the way that they're expressed. Benwing2 (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
I've always thought of doing that catboiler but never got around to it.
Did a mockup: {{dialectboiler}}. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 04:59, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Cool, thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 05:29, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
I fixed the use of the first parameter.
BTW what the hell is "German Low German"? That looks awful. And we have the even more awful Category:Mecklenburgisch German Low German as the supposed "correct" category in place of Category:Mecklenburgisch Low German. Benwing2 (talk) 06:51, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

To Chrome usersEdit

What's the best way to enter various symbols of YOUR OWN choice - diacritics, IPA symbols, letters that are missing on a keyboard? In Firefox it's easy - I use the character panel plug-in where I use multiple panels for accents, foreign letters. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:33, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Mac or PC? On a Mac it's easy using either the "Show Character Viewer" in the keyboard/input-method dropdown in the upper right, or CTRL-CMD-SPACE, which brings up a "recent characters" menu from which you can select arbitrary new characters to put in the menu. Benwing2 (talk) 05:28, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
PC, I don't normally use Mac. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:37, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, only way I know of entering symbols of your own choice on PC's is either to create your own keyboard layout or do it the "hard way" using ALT+number pad. But it looks like there are Chrome plug-ins called "Special characters" and "Google input tools" that might help. Benwing2 (talk) 06:58, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Search your PC for the "Character Map". That should work for you. —Stephen (Talk) 07:24, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions. Specifically, I'm looking for stress marks - acute and grave accents, Arabic diacritics. I don't find the above tools easy to use for that. At work, I have to use Chrome and IE most of the time. Firefox is better with linguistic plug-ins but I would then use Firefox only for Wiktionary edits. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:32, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Back in the day when I used PC's, I created some PC keyboard layouts to make Arabic diacritics easy to input -- a/i/u were used for short vowels, w/y and maybe e for long vowels, o for sukūn, maybe semicolon for shadda. I can share those with you if you want. For Russian acute/grave accents your best bet is to create a keyboard layout -- it's not too hard using the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator. Benwing2 (talk) 07:59, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Arabic diacritics are all on the default Arabic keyboard. But beyond that, the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator is very useful. If you create a keyboard, you can use it in any application at all. I created my own Arabic keyboard to be able to enter Persian and other languages' characters. I also created a Russian keyboard that includes all of the diacritics, letters from other Slavic Cyrillic languages, and all the pre-reform and OCS characters. I have done this for several other languages as well. If you want, I can email you my keyboard source files and/or installation packages. --WikiTiki89 15:25, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89 Thanks, I've emailed you my request (I don't know if your other email is still valid). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:23, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
It's not much, but for acute accents on the vowels you can use AltGr + vowel (if your keyboard has that key, and possibly depending on your system locale; it works in en-GB). Equinox 11:15, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks all, I'll look into these options. With a Firefox "Character Palette" plug-in, though, I add symbols to clipboard by simply clicking on a panel in the same browser tab. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:31, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

suffixcat/prefixcat -- would be nice if they could infer the suffix automaticallyEdit

@CodeCat Actually it would be even nicer if they could infer both the language and the suffix. This shouldn't be so hard, I imagine ... There are a zillion wanted categories of the form "FOO words suffixed with -BAR" and "FOO words prefixed with -BAR" and it would definitely speed up creating them if I didn't have to search for the correct language code for each language mentioned and cut and paste the suffix/prefix. Benwing2 (talk) 06:54, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

BTW I'm aware that some categories might need extra parameters (accent marks, translit, etc.) but most won't. Benwing2 (talk) 06:55, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
This has been done now, both the language and the affix are autodetected. The part of speech (which may replace "word") is not autodetected, though, because it's not possible (theoretically) to tell where the language name ends and the part of speech begins. {{poscatboiler}} doesn't autodetect the language for the same reason, it can't tell where to separate the two, unless one of them is given. I could change it so that the language needs to be specified, but then the part of speech could be autodetected. —CodeCat 01:35, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you!!! This is awesome. Benwing2 (talk) 10:06, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Hindi templates (modules)Edit

User:Aryamanarora has been adding some new Hindi lemmas and it seems Hindi templates need some enhancements. E.g. nouns need pluralia tantum - g=p is not supported or should {{head|hi|noun|g=p}} be used? Proper nouns need genders as well. There could be some other new things required or good to have, like feminine parameter forms for both nouns and adjectives, plural forms, etc. माता-पिता ‎(mātā-pitā) uses a non-standard template. @Aryamanarora, sometimes it's worth asking around for a better way, don't struggle on your own. :) Perhaps an existing headword module could be taken as a base for Hindi? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:27, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

A term like मेहमान ‎(mehmān) should go to Category:Hindi nouns with multiple genders. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

November 2015

Help someone fix a small bug in your code project: It's Google Code-In time!Edit

  • Are you a developer and have small, self-contained, "easy" software bugs in your Wikimedia/Wiktionary code that you would love to get fixed?
  • Does your Wiktionary gadget use some deprecated API calls?
  • Would you enjoy helping someone port your Wiktionary template to Lua?
  • Does the documentation of your code need some improvements?
  • Do you enjoy mentoring to a new contributor fixing small tasks?

Google Code-In (GCI) will take place again in December and January: a contest for 13-17 year old students to provide small contributions to free software projects. Wikimedia will apply again to take part and would like to offer a wide range of tasks. Just one example: Multimedia saw some impressive achievements in last year's contest!

Tasks should take an experienced contributed about two-three hours ("beginner tasks" also welcome which are smaller) and can be of the categories Code, Documentation/Training, Outreach/Research, Quality Assurance, and User Interface/Design. Can you imagine to be a mentor? Check the wiki page and if something is unclear, please ask on the talk page!

Thank you! --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 16:06, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Fixing wanted categories: "Japanese terms spelled with X" and "Japanese terms spelled with X read as Y"Edit

@Atitarev Hello Anatoli et al ... I'm not exactly sure who works on Japanese, maybe you'd know. There are a bunch of missing categories in Special:WantedCategories of the form "Japanese terms spelled with X" and "Japanese terms spelled with X read as Y". I'm wondering if someone could create them who knows how to do it. By looking at existing categories of this form I can get an approximate sense of how to create them but it looks like you need some specialized knowledge, e.g. for "Japanese terms spelled with X" there's a number of some sort (a stroke count?) and for "Japanese terms spelled with X read as Y" there's a value that often shows up as "kun", and sometimes the parameter value corresponding to Y isn't the same as Y itself (perhaps this is a mistake). Whoever does it, can you look at least through the first 250 entries for categories of this sort? Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 06:45, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I know (more or less) how to create them manually, a rather tedious task, but there are too many wanted ctagories. Someone knows some shortcuts - User:Chuck Entz? - some smart templates, which simplify the creation. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:58, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
For the "Japanese terms spelled with X" entries, you use {{charactercat}}: the first parameter is the language code, the second is the character itself, and there's a named sort parameter, consisting of the radical followed by a 2-digit stroke count. If you go to the entry for the character and look at the Han Character subsection of the Translingual section, there's a {{Han char}} template, which has the radical in the rad= parameter and the stroke count in the as= parameter.
Picking a category at random as an illustration- Category:Japanese terms spelled with 輸:
  • {{charactercat|ja|輸|sort=車09}}
  • {{Han char|rn=159|rad=車|as=09|sn=16|four=58021|canj=JJOMN|ids=⿰車俞}}
In case you're interested, is radical 159, with 7 strokes. The rest of the character is 9 strokes, for a total of 16 strokes. The remaining parameters have to do with the values needed for different input methods.
For the "Japanese terms spelled with X read as Y" categories, you would use {{ja-readingcat}}, except I came up with a shortcut called {{jrcez}}. You subst it to produce {{ja-readingcat}} with the kanji and hiragana parameters supplied from the pagename. It's really kludgy, but it does the job. There are two optional parameters, which are the reading types. Kanji can be read quite a number of different ways, and the readings are classified using an etymologically-based system: kun readings are native Japanese, on readings are borrowings from Chinese, with different subtypes depending on when and from which dialect they were borrowed, such as goon, kan'on, etc. there are a few more types based on other criteria, such as nanori and kan'yōon. In some cases there's more than one reading type for a given reading, which is why the template takes two optional parameters.
There's no easy way to supply the reading type: you have to look through the Japanese section and hope you find a reading that matches. Given that contributors don't always correctly match up the syllables with the kanji, the readings on the character pages are incomplete, and there are some kanji that simply refuse to follow the rules, there's no guarantee you'll find anything. When in doubt, omit the reading type, and someone will find it in a cleanup category later and fix it.
I'll just give a very basic example: for Category:Japanese terms spelled with 輸 read as ゆ, {{subst|jrcez|kan'yōon}} will produce {{ja-readingcat|輸|ゆ|kan'yōon}}
Finally, for "Japanese terms read as Y" categories, I just use {{subst:jraez}} with no parameters.
If you ever feel so inclined, you could probably easily add pagename-parsing code to the module(s) to make all the kanji and hiragana parameters unnecessary. Chuck Entz (talk) 10:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks very much for the detailed info. I'll try to take a look. In the meantime, if you feel like creating some of these empty categories, please be my guest! There aren't too many in the first 250 entries, and that would be a good start. Benwing2 (talk) 11:25, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz Could you take a look at Special:WantedCategories and take care of some of the Japanese categories? I've dealt with most of the remainder. Benwing2 (talk) 09:04, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Module invocation time limitEdit

Is there a cumulative time limit that cuts off module calls on a page? After 181 conjugation tables at User:Wikitiki89/he-verb-test, the 182nd and anything subsequent will result in a strange [[#invoke:he-verb]] link. --WikiTiki89 21:17, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

A the end of the page in the editing mode - "Parser profiling data: Post-expand include size 2094766/2097152 bytes"
It seems a page cannot have ~2MB wikitext (templates expanded). --Dixtosa (talk) 21:22, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Interesting. It seems you're right. I just tried removing some of the text that the module returns and previewing and it fixes the issue. --WikiTiki89 21:30, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Although another strange thing is now I have divided the page into subpages which are all transcluded in turn at User:Wikitiki89/he-verb-test, and now much less content fits on the page, with three entire subpages failing to be included. Previously only a small part of what is now the last subpage was failing. --WikiTiki89 21:45, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
There is a time limit of 10 seconds for script-execution time ( would run over it any time background tasks slowed the system down, but this diff seems to have fixed it). As noted above, though, that's not your problem. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:55, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Sauraseni PrakritEdit

Can w:Sauraseni Prakrit (psu) be listed as having Proto-Indo-Aryan (inc-pro) as an ancestor in Module:languages/data3/p? —This comment was unsigned.

Yes check.svg Done - -sche (discuss) 22:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Now I can use {{inherited}} for Hindi! Aryamanarora (talk) 17:17, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

How do you go from a template boolean value to Lua?Edit

If you pass a value in a template of 1, true, yes, etc, it will be evaluated as true- how can I parse these values as a native boolean in Lua? DTLHS (talk) 21:10, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Set the variable value as a string comparison: local booleanvar = (args["parameter name"] == "true" or args["parameter name"] == "1" or args["parameter name"] == "yes"). — Ungoliant (falai) 21:21, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, it seems like there should be a built-in way to do this. Do you know of a list of all values in templates that are considered boolean true? DTLHS (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
In the templates I’ve seen using this any value is considered true. This means that you can use simply local booleanvar = (args["parameter name"] ~= nil and args["parameter name"] ~= ""), or even just booleanvar = (args["parameter name"] ~= nil), but this will make {{template|parameter name=}} evaluate as true. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:27, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
Module:parameters does a lot of the work in parsing template arguments for you, including this. —CodeCat 21:33, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Genitive indefinite article for neuter uncountable nounsEdit

I think the article for the genitive indefinite article is supposed to be eines instead of just ein, as seen in Heute, for instance. See {{de-decl-noun-n}} to find the error and fix it. Happy typo fixing. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:44, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Here is the template {{de-decl-noun-table-full}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 02:28, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
@JohnC5, do you have anything to say about this? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:23, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo: Yeah, there was a little copypasta from the accusative cases that never got fixed. Here's the change. —JohnC5 16:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Þank ye. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Crash on alertEdit

I'm running Opera 12.16. When I click the alarm bell, the list of notifications pops out, but then the browser crashes. That's new. Korn [kʰʊ̃ːæ̯̃n] (talk) 10:51, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

roa-jer still works?!Edit

As you can see from my edit to *tropo, roa-jer still works. Is this intentional, if so, why? Shouldn't it add a cleanup category at the very least? Renard Migrant (talk) 23:58, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

It's still in Module:languages/datax. Perhaps we should add a {{{2}}} parameter to the language data modules to make it easier to find and correct uses of deprecated languages before deleting them? --WikiTiki89 00:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Inconsistent formatting, pos= parameter in Template:mEdit

In the entry misprize, I've edited the etymology like this:

From {{etyl|frm|en}} {{m|frm|mespriser|pos=verb}}, {{m|frm|mespris|pos=noun}}.

I noticed that in the end result, the word "verb" is italicized, but the word "noun" is not. Why is that? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:12, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

It’s because {{pos verb}} exists and {{pos noun}} doesn’t. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, I created {{pos noun}}, thanks. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
I think we should delete all those templates and remove the logic that transcludes them. I don't really see any point in them. —CodeCat 15:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
We can move the logic into the modules. If you meant that you don't see a point in the pos= parameter, then I will have to disagree; it is occasionally useful in disambiguations. --WikiTiki89 16:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, the pos= parameter is fine. Just not the bit that changes the text when it's a certain string. —CodeCat 16:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Then should {{m|en|foo|pos=n}} display n or noun? I think {{m|en|foo|pos=n}} and {{m|en|foo|pos=noun}} should mean the same thing and display the same thing, whether that same this is n or noun. --WikiTiki89 16:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Definitely "noun". If Wiktionary:Todo/unhelpful abbreviations is any indication, we should avoid abbreviations in entries. (gender and number abbreviations would be exceptions: m, f, p...) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:56, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion: "term -> m" by botEdit

I wonder if a bot could turn all instances of {{term|xxx|lang=yy}} into {{m|yy|xxx}}. Probably that's not urgent work, since the end result in the entries is the same, but it would make the code look more consistent.

Sometimes, people do it manually.[2] When I find {{term}} without a language code, I turn it into {{m|xx}} with the apropriate language code, but when I find {{term}} with the code already, usually I do nothing because I assume a bot could fix it easily. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I would be for this. I imagine CodeCat would too. Benwing2 (talk) 14:36, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
User:CodeCat has tried to do this before, but User:Dan Polansky complains that this is a misuse of the botting policy because there is not enough consensus for the use of {{m}}. --WikiTiki89 14:46, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
I think this proposal would have a fair chance of passing a vote, I plan to create it later: "Allow bots changing {{term|xxx|lang=yy}} into {{m|yy|xxx}} in all entries."
{{m}} does all the job of {{term}} and is shorter to type. The only difference is that you are required to use a langcode with {{m}} or else it's going to generate a module error. With {{term}}, you could omit the langcode if you wanted and the template would still work, albeit without any functionality associated with langcodes. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 00:04, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
For reference: Wiktionary:Votes/2014-08/Migrating from Template:term to Template:m. On a favorable reading of that vote, there is 60.9% support for the migration. I think such a vote could have run for a year to get best chance and become even more representative, but some editors wanted the extensions to end so I stopped extending the vote. Even so, it run for 6 months and is probably fairly representative. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:57, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for linking to that vote. 9 months passed since it ended. I wonder if more people started to get used to {{m}} since. It has been pointed out in the vote that {{m}} has the problem of being a former gender template, but I guess nobody thinks of it as a gender template anymore, or tries to use it as a gender template (it would generate a module error anyway). I note that @Angr and @Lo Ximiendo are 2 users that I have seen replacing {{term}} by {{m}} which did not participate in that vote.
It has been pointed out in the vote that the parameters of {{term}} and {{m}} are not compatible. This is because of the reason I said, {{term}} can be used without language codes. Now that I am currently adding the langcode in all entries lacking it, the transition should be seamless, if people want it. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
You first need evidence that people want the migration. I certainly don't object to your creating another vote. I would actually cast a support vote since, for this kind of rather arbitrary disagreement about wikicode markup, I consider 60%-majority large enough to be decisive.
Your adding language code everywhere is unlikely to be supported by consensus, but I don't have the energy to raise this as an issue and I don't care enough, so you'll probably succeed with adding lang code everywhere. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:45, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Using {{term}} without a language code places the affected article in a cleanup category, so I don't see why you think adding a language code to it would be unlikely to be supported by consensus. I cannot think of a single coherent reason to object to the practice, and I'm actually paying Daniel to do it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:49, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Placing it in the cleanup category is part of the action that I do not think has consensus, but I am not sure. The fact that you are paying is irrelevant; when that paying remark comes from a person who claims that votes are evil, it is actually pretty amazing. --Dan Polansky (talk)
I'm paying him for it because it's work that urgently needs to be done, unlike starting pointless votes on every tiny aspect of editing. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:13, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
"work that urgently needs to be done": oh really? Wow. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:23, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
In Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2013/April#Template term and lang parameter, most people supported making lang= mandatory in {{term}}, but many opposed showing "???" in the entry when there was no language code, which I personally agree would be a bad idea. I noticed that in that discussion, you (Dan Polansky) opposed making the lang= mandatory for English.
Adding the langcode to {{term}} is just adding more information to the entry. How controversial can be turning an unformatted, unanchored link to a Spanish word into a formatted, anchored link to a Spanish word, provided I make the effort to add the language codes accurately?
The discussion about doing it as a paid job happened at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/October#Boring cleanup work for money. There, aside from Angr, @Metaknowledge too (I suppose I can count @Jberkel as well; not sure about @Panda10) demonstrated support for the idea and nobody opposed it. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 11:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't oppose paid edits per se; I actually quite like the idea. But I oppose paid non-consensual edits. I would argue that when the edits are paid, the degree of scrutiny and skepticism about there being consensus needs to be higher, and any doubt needs to be taken even more seriously than with unpaid non-consensual edits.
Can you please post a list of the editors from that BP discussion who you think support making lang= mandatory? --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:51, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to say I wasn't part of that discussion but I support
  1. making lang= mandatory for {{term}}, and fixing all existing instances;
  2. converting all instances of {{term}} to {{m}}, or all those that have a language code if (1) isn't possible;
  3. deprecating {{term}}, and removing it once all instances have been converted;
  4. I also think similar things should be done for certain other templates, e.g. {{cx}} -> {{lb}}, but that's another issue. Benwing2 (talk) 12:07, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── We already had a 6-month long vote on your item 2 so I don't see why you are saying that in this discussion. This discussion is not a vote and cannot replace the 6-month vote. We also had a vote on your item 4 with no consensus in either direction.
@Daniel Carrero: Can you please post a list of the editors from that BP discussion who you think support making lang= mandatory? --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, "urgently needs to be done". All text not in English must be labeled with its language code in order for the HTML to be correct, so that fonts render correctly and screen readers work properly. If any non-English text is not labeled with its language code, it is an error. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
I forgo comment on this; the matter is hopefully as obvious to the reader as it is to me. I still hope to get a response from Daniel. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:24, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Maybe Daniel's count will be different from mine, but when I peruse Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2013/April#Template term and lang parameter, I see 7 editors supporting the obligatoriness of the lang parameter (CodeCat, Mzajac, Ruakh, Atitarev, Msh210, ZxxZxxZ, PalkiaX50), 6 editors taking no position on the obligatoriness of the lang parameter (Widsith, Liliana-60, Chuck Entz, Metaknowledge, Mglovesfun, and KYPark), and only 1 editor opposing the obligatoriness of tha lang parameter (Dan Polansky). Add to that the participants in this thread who support obligatory lang (Daniel Carrero, me, Benwing2), plus the supporters of Wiktionary:Votes/2014-08/Migrating from Template:term to Template:m (who can be assumed to support obligatory lang for {{term}} since the language code is obligatory for {{m}}, though opposition to that vote cannot be taken as opposition to obligatory lang), and I'm left with the distinct impression that you're the only Wiktionarian who doesn't want the lang parameter of {{term}} to be obligatory. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Dan Polansky, I see no problem in @Benwing2 saying their opinion. Even though I agree that this alone does not have the power to overthrow a vote by itself, it demonstrates more support in the direction of using {{m}}. Benwing is another person supporting {{m}} over {{term}} who did not participate in that vote, which leads me to believe that if the issue of "Template:term X Template:m" were voted again, it could pass.
Sure, I don't mind making the list you asked. You said "that discussion", but we have 2 discussions:
The first is about the lang= parameter, the second is about my work.
My list (From Discussion One): @CodeCat, Mzajac, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, Ruakh, Atitarev, msh210, ZxxZxxZ, PalkiaX50.
The first 6 people explicitly said along the lines of "I support making langcodes mandatory."
The other two (ZxxZxxZ and PalkiaX50) said "I support the change", which I believe amounts to "I support displaying an error message in the lack of a language code".
I did not count @Chuck Entz, because I am not sure about him. He spent that discussion expressing his opposition to the "???" appearing in entries as a warning and suggesting other ways of displaying the error. It could perhaps constitute a support towards making lang= mandatory, but I don't really know.
When you said "that discussion", did you want me to count how many people said they support lang= being mandatory in the Discussion Two? This would have been pointless. Consensus for a mandatory lang= has already been established in the previous discussion, so I didn't ask people to repeat their positions in the second discussion. It's interesting to note that you yourself said you would cast a support vote for the migration of {{term}} -> {{m}}, so I wonder what is your motivation for questioning the consensus or the legitimacy of the projects mentioned here. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 13:06, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the ping. On that page, I supported migration to a template that requires a lang parameter for non-English only, which is not how my opinion was represented here. Even if consensus is to require lang for all languages, conversion from {{term}} to {{mention}} can only take place for words whose language is known (since {{mention}} technically requires a lang parameter). If we require lang for all languages and we manage to convert all uses of {{term}}, then that means we know the language of every word that now uses {{term}} (great!); and then the documentation for {{mention}} should note that, for the future, terms in unknown languages should simply not use a template. (We used to use {{Hebr}} et al. for those, but, alas, those are no longer; now there's no way afaik to represent them in the right script.)​—msh210 (talk) 23:13, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
No way to represent what in the right script? —CodeCat 23:16, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
@msh210: {{m|und|term-in-unkown-language|sc=Script}} ("und" is the code for "Undetermined language"). --WikiTiki89 00:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

q with tildeEdit

Is there any way to render this? It's a variant of Old French and Middle French que, it's more like a short hand as compared to tẽps where the tilde replaces the letter m, in this case it just replaced the rest of the word. Unlike for est ‎((it) is) I haven't found a way to enter it. I tried copying and pasting a combining tilde and it didn't work. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

I recently added the combining diacritics to the character insertion box under Miscellaneous. Clicking the tilde after typing a q gives . Is that not what you want? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:44, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
@Angr: Could you also add the combining Ancient Greek accent marks under Greek? I find editing the edit tools very frustrating, especially with combining marks. —JohnC5 00:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Do you want any of them besides the macron and breve? I think all of the others have precomposed characters that are already listed under Greek. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:20, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes combining characters are an easier way to input precomposed characters, since they are normalized by the wiki software and you don't have to look through long lists of the same letters. --WikiTiki89 15:43, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
@Angr: Currently all length-specified characters must be of the order vowel with length mark (ᾰ, ᾱ, ...) + combining accent mark and not the other way around. So I don't need the macrons or breves but I do need all the others. —JohnC5 15:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
OK. I use the macrons and breves for the w= parameter of {{grc-IPA}}, where the order of the diacritics doesn't matter (ά + combining macron works just as well as ᾰ + acute accent). I'll add them later today. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:16, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Has {{grc-IPA}} been fixed so that it accepts combining breves? Formerly you had to add the non-combining macron or breve character after the relevant vowel. —JohnC5 16:37, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
I guess it must have been; at any rate, I always use the combining breves and macrons in it and it works. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Re. "Currently all length-specified characters must be of the order vowel with length mark (ᾰ, ᾱ, ...) + combining accent mark and not the other way around.": I think the wiki software normalizes this as well. Try inputting it the wrong way and press preview and see if it changes to the right order. --WikiTiki89 16:54, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: So, the problem does appear to be fixed for {{grc-IPA}} in the form “vowel with length + accent mark” as seen here (no accent appears):
As for linking, the order “vowel with accent + length” does not link or display correctly (σκύ̆λος ‎(skú̆los)) whereas “vowel with length + accent mark” does (σκῠ́λος ‎(skúlos)). If we could get {{grc-IPA}} to accept the “vowel with length + accent mark”, that would be great, though there are already a heap of things that need to be fixed in {{grc-IPA}}. —JohnC5 17:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
Oh, strange that the wiki software does not normalize it. It does with other combinations. --WikiTiki89 18:14, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, there are now combining diacritics listed in the Greek section. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
W00t! —JohnC5 19:40, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
It is annoying that the headword display and the pronunciation template take different orders, because it would be so easy to just copy the headword display and paste it into {{grc-IPA|w=}}, but I just learned at νίκη that it doesn't work (so what I said above about the order not mattering is wrong!): the headword display has "ῑ + acute accent", while the pronunciation template has to have "ί + macron" or it won't display correctly. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
It seems to me that the best solution is to get {{grc-IPA}} to support the headword order. —JohnC5
Thank you. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Category for pi-decl-nounEdit

{{pi-decl-noun}} needs to be documented. Over. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:26, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@CodeCat, if you're busy or not, feel free to do what you have to do. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Why don't you do it? —CodeCat 16:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Plurals and diacritics for ha-nounEdit

As stated on my userpage, I wish {{ha-noun}} is similar to {{ar-noun}} when it comes to diacritics and plural forms. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:28, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE: I remodeled {{ha-noun}} to make it similar to {{ang-noun}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 01:52, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat The display for the plural looks messed up, as seen in lacca. Could someone add a parameter for a third plural, just in case? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 02:20, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: Never mind, I fixed it. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 02:59, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

suffixsee and a weird newlineEdit

In the entry -iero, somehow the template {{suffixsee}} is generating an additional newline below it, causing the section "Usage notes" to be further down in the text. Perhaps it's something in Module:compound. Could someone fix that, please? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 11:00, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

MW:Extension:CategoryTree parser function is the culprit. We could add this .CategoryTreeTag + p br:first-child{display:none;} to global CSS before developers fix it. --Dixtosa (talk) 11:42, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
@Dixtosa Did it, thanks. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Remove link to nonexistent Old Irish WiktionaryEdit

Category:Old Irish language links to sga.wiktionary.org but that Wiktionary does not exist. Please fix the link, thanks. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

That's the case for every language that doesn't have a Wiktionary. --WikiTiki89 00:40, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
This happens because lang:getWikimediaLanguages(), called in Module:category tree/langcatboiler line 9, is returning a value. That in turn happens because "sga" is a valid WikiMedia language code. I don't know if there is a way within Lua to test if there is specifically a Wiktionary for that language. —CodeCat 00:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Apparently it is possible to test for valid interwikis, but they only give us a list of Wiktionaries. So we can't use it to test if a language has a Wikipedia or any other project. —CodeCat 00:57, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
But we don't really need to check for Wikipedias, do we? Only for Wiktionaries. --WikiTiki89 01:19, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Wikitiki89. If there's a test for valid Wiktionaries, that sounds perfect.
On that note, there are 174 Wiktionaries according to meta:Wiktionary. I would suggest manually listing all the 174 in a module if everything else fails. We have Module:wikimedia languages specifically for the weird stuff, such as the existence of "zh-min-nan.wiktionary.org" and the separated sh/bs/hr/sb Wiktionaries. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Change in Watchlist options box on Watchlist pageEdit

On my watchlist page there now appears a pulldown box for the time period to be covered by the watchlist. This apparently replaces the blue numbers for the number of hours or days to be covered by the watchlist. This change would be of little consequence were it not for the fact that the pulldown box doesn't have any effect. Of course I can change the day-fraction in the url to achieve finer selection that either of the ways presented in the watchlist options box, but one would expect the user interface to work. I don't understand why someone (I wonder who) felt compelled, entitled, and sufficiently skilled to make the change properly. DCDuring TALK 01:38, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Did you try pressing "Go"? But I still think that it's a rather pointless change. --WikiTiki89 01:46, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
"Go" works, but my habit was using the page refresh. Like many pointless changes, it has negative value because it disrupts user habits. Had there been a vote, this would not have succeeded. I note that my WP watchliust does not have the change, so it must have been local. Will anyone 'fess up? (I don't think so.) DCDuring TALK 02:26, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
Checking RecentChanges, restricted to the Mediawiki namespace, the only pages which have been edited in the past five days are MediaWiki:Common.css‎ and MediaWiki:Edittools‎, neither in a way that would affect the watchlist. It seems it was a software update. RecentChanges still has the links like the watchlist used to have (which I too prefer). We could probably re-add links, however, in the same way that we added the Votes box. - -sche (discuss) 02:56, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
The devs tend to use us a Guinea pigs and roll things out here before Wikipedia. --WikiTiki89 16:03, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
We are alpha testers you should be proud xD --Dixtosa (talk) 18:07, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
If they were to be testing for user response - and actually listened - I'd be happy. In the case of this watchlist box, the position of the "go" button, below the line, can be interpreted as meaning that it has nothing to do with what is above the line. (That is what I assumed initially and is what I based my habits.) I keep on making the apparently unwarranted assumption that the MW user interface designers are so good that one never has to second-guess the UI: whatever method is subconsciously led to do by the UI is the best method for accomplishing the task, with obvious exceptions. DCDuring TALK 18:21, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I think I see what they are trying to do: bias the refresh process to favor one hour, presumably to lower the load on the server. No matter what interval one has selected, the dropdown box seems to default to 1 hour for the next "Go". DCDuring TALK 20:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I have it set to default to 3 days in prefs, so the dropdown box does default to 3 days. Maybe if you have the pref set to the default (which is 7 days), then it ignores it and defaults to the first item in the dropdown list. Silly bug, but I would not put it past the devs. They do seem to be completely disinterested in the users' opinions. --WikiTiki89 20:58, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I tried it in Edge (first use thereof) and the behavior seems to be that it remembers whatever choice was last made, provided it is one of the dropdown choices, except for 2 hours, which, together with any other choice, whether made on preferences or in the url, leads the dropdown default going to 1 hour. Sloppy. DCDuring TALK 22:22, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Cleanup categoryEdit

Is it possible to have {{R:DIL}} put an entry in a cleanup category whenever its first positional parameter is absent or consists of anything other than numbers? For example {{R:DIL}} with no parameter, {{R:DIL|foo}}, and {{R:DIL|2 bar}} would all put the entry into (say) Category:RDIL needing cleanup, but {{R:DIL|123}} would not put the entry to the category. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:34, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

There would need to be some Lua support. In Lua, your question would be simple, just mw.ustring.match(text, "^[0-9]+$"). I have been thinking that it would be relatively trivial to create a module that exposes the standard Lua string functions to templates. However, these would also open up the possibility of unknowing editors using these functions in a rather inefficient way (templates are slower and less efficient than modules), which would then end up weighing heavier on the system. So while I think it's a helpful idea, I don't know if it would be a good idea. —CodeCat 20:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
If you could make a module for this template, I'd be very grateful. The online Dictionary of the Irish Language recently changed the way the URLs of entries work, so I've had to change the template so the links work. But there are over 800 transclusions of the template and I'll lose track of what's already been fixed if I simply go through WhatLinksHere. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Apparently, we already have Module:string. It's not really very well documented though. —CodeCat 20:59, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
OK, but I don't know how to use it to do what I'm asking for. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
Maybe you'd be better off asking someone to generate a cleanup list that you can edit to mark the ones that are done. Depending on the recentness of the dump it's based on, the number of false positives might not be too bad. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:20, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done How does that look as a first approximation? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:09, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

It works great, thanks! And thanks @Catsidhe and @Embryomystic for helping the cleanup efforts! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:01, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit request: interwiki linkEdit

Could someone please add a wikilink to [[sv:Wiktionary:Stilguide/Vilka ord skall tas med]] on Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion? Skalman (talk) 22:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done --WikiTiki89 22:16, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Proto-Norse translitterationEdit

All {{mention}}s of Proto-Norse seem to trigger superfluous translitteration: e.g. *fō ‎(*fō). Presumably this is for the sake of the handful of attested words written in runes; but is there any way to disable this for reconstructed words? --Tropylium (talk) 23:48, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

The only way I see to do this is to add Latn as a script for the language. But then it would also end up in the list of the language's scripts. —CodeCat 00:04, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Well, theoretically at least adding a distinct "Proto-North Germanic" should be possible… --Tropylium (talk) 02:10, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Adding "Latn" as one of the scripts (and then suppressing transliteration of it) seems like the better option. - -sche (discuss) 23:04, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Latn is never transliterated, the modules already have exceptions for that. —CodeCat 23:11, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
You can always suppress transliteration with tr=-, so {{m|gmq-pro|*fō|tr=-}} renders as *fō. That's a few keystrokes fewer than {{m|gmq-pro|*fō|sc=Latn}}, which also renders as *fō. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:24, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I think the intent was adding Latn as one of the default scripts, so that {{m|gmq-pro|*fō}} by itself will automatically not be transliterated. --WikiTiki89 14:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if it would be desirable to change script detection so that, if all else fails, it tries Latn regardless of whether it was included in one of the language's scripts? —CodeCat 15:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like a decent idea to me. I know there are occasional m and l links labeled "Russian" but with Latin characters, and I imagine it must be the same for at least some other languages. Benwing2 (talk) 08:31, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that occurs from time to time for Ancient Greek too. —JohnC5 14:49, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
For Russian, there are occasional legitimate cases of this, but for Ancient Greek, I don't think there are. I really don't think this is a good idea. It's not a bad idea, but it's not a good idea either. --WikiTiki89 14:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

aller conjugation tableEdit

Somebody bugged the conjugation template, making the word conjugated to display as "allaller". Hillcrest98 (talk) 02:19, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

@kc kennylau will you take a look at Module:fr-verb? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:31, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Best guess: data = m_core.make_ind_p_e(data, "all"), though when you go to edit and search for that, it's not even there. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:11, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
My apologies for my carelessness. --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:01, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Any generous soul fancy Lua-cizing frm-noun and frm-adj?Edit

This is from ridé

==Middle French==


# [[wrinkled]]

Surely this would be easily Lua-cized (just I don't know who and no I don't want to learn particular. I don't have to be able to do everything). Also parent which has the plural parens; -ts can always be reduced to -s at the end of a word, and -és can always be converted to -ez (see above). Renard Migrant (talk) 10:55, 25 November 2015 (UTC)


I notice on si#Middle Dutch that the Descendants header, which is present if you look at the source code, has been 'eaten' by the {{dum-decl-ppron}} template. I've had a look at its code and I can't see an obvious error, the number of <div>s matches the number of </div>s for instance. Can anyone work this one out? Renard Migrant (talk) 14:27, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

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