Wiktionary:Grease pit

Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit

July 2016


The template {{topic cat}} is generating an error at "Category:en:Parties", and I'm not sure why. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:12, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no "parties" topic in the Module:category tree/topic cat/data tree. It should probably be added to the Culture subpage. --WikiTiki89 16:43, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. It looks pretty technical. I'd better leave this to one of the grease monkeys here. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Done: diff. Feel free to change the parent categories if you see fit. --WikiTiki89 18:03, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, that looks fine! — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:25, 1 July 2016 (UTC)


I created {{coglist}}, a template for lists of cognates. See this diff where the template is being added in an entry. See also the data module for the list of cognates itself. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 11:58, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it's too cumbersome to be useful. People aren't going to want to create a new list in a module (modules scary!) just to list a few cognates in an entry. Same as with {{etyltree}}, that never really got used much either, which is why I created {{desctree}} as a simpler replacement. —CodeCat 13:50, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, if it were to become widely used, the parameter would have to be more language-specific. At the moment there are only two lists, both in reconstructed Vulgar Latin, but what if someday we wanted one cognate list for the descendants of Latin dolus and another for the descendants of Old Irish dolus? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
The group names can be: dolus1, dolus2; dolus/la, dolus/sga. The group names can be anything. @CodeCat, you meant {{etymtree}}? Also, as long as people are ok with the existence of {{coglist}}, they can choose using it or not. That template exists mostly because I got tired of replacing the same instances of {{etyl|xx|-}} {{m|xx|qwerty}} by {{cog|xx|qwerty}} in multiple entries, and I'd like to use it. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:38, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I just don't list cognates much at all. If people want to find cognates, they can look in the entry for the ancestor. No sense in duplicating all that. —CodeCat 14:46, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
As Code said, I've often found lists of cognates to be duplicative and often misleading. —JohnC5 17:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
When you choose to use a particular template, you're choosing not just for yourself, but for the next person who's going to making changes to what you've entered. If you get a Lithuanian cognate wrong, some poor Lithuanian IP is going to have to figure out how to change it in the module. I also agree that cognate lists are rife with excess. Listing all the cognates in every etymology would be like including the entire inflection table in the headword line of every inflected form. It's bad enough that you can't give a Danish cognate without having Swedish, Norwegian, Faroese and Icelandic added immediately. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:35, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I think including cognates in an etymology is a good idea but I also don't really like this approach too much. One issue here is that it feels wrong to have the cognate lists all stuck together into a big file instead of more distributed. Benwing2 (talk) 20:36, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
There are two issues:
  1. Whether to have many (or all) cognates in the etymology of a given entry; or just 1, 2, 3 cognates; or no cognates in etymologies.
  2. Whether to use {{coglist}} with Module:coglist/data, or: "Compare {{cog}}, {{cog}}, {{cog}}, {{cog}}, {{cog}}, {{cog}}, {{cog}}, {{cog}}."
About both issues, I'm using {{coglist}} in pages where there already were already lots of cognates, cross-linked in most of the separate pages, as in the diff in my 1st message. If having a certain number of cognates in etymologies is not a desirable thing, should we delete the cognates altogether from these entries? Or maybe just trim all the long lists of cognates and keep only 1, 2 or 3 cognates in all pages? I don't think {{coglist}} would be very helpful in pages with few (maybe 1-3) cognates. (unless we make {{coglist}} show 3 cognates with a JavaScript [more] button to display more cognates) If all the many cognates were to be kept, and cross-linked in all entries, it seemed logical to me creating a separate list for them.
I tried just converting from:
"Compare Language ''[[link]]'', Language ''[[link]]'', Language ''[[link]]'', Language ''[[link]]'', Language ''[[link]]'', Language ''[[link]]'', Language ''[[link]]''."
"Compare {{cog|lc|link}}, {{cog|lc|link}}, {{cog|lc|link}}, {{cog|lc|link}}, {{cog|lc|link}}, {{cog|lc|link}}, {{cog|lc|link}}."
but got tired of editing the same cognates over and over in all the linked pages. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 23:44, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe the solution is to use a bot to convert to {{cog|...}}? It requires some cleverness but probably can be done for most cases. Benwing2 (talk) 02:53, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Latvian accent marksEdit

I think we should automatically remove/convert Latvian accent marks, as we do with other languages. For example, klât should automatically link to klāt. I don't know Latvian well but I think the three long-vowel tone marks are â â ââ, which should all map to ā. Benwing2 (talk) 20:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

CodeCat (I think) and I had wondered about this before but also lacked the requisite knowledge. I'd love to know the answer. —JohnC5 20:47, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
I'd say just go ahead, and see if someone complains. —CodeCat 21:07, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Done. Benwing2 (talk) 21:39, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Except there's no such thing as ō in the standard orthography- only o (nor any variation on y whatsoever, for that matter). See w:Latvian orthography and WT:ALV. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:42, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
ō and ȳ removed. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:48, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
According to that Wikipedia page, ō is still used by some Latvian speakers, but not by the standard orthography. So entries with ō might theoretically exist as alternative spellings, and we need to be able to link to them. —CodeCat 23:03, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but what we're talking about here is converting every accented o or O to ō or Ō. Links that have ō or Ō in the wikitext are still going to link to ō or Ō- we just don't want to link ÔÕÒôõò to ō or Ō. Why funnel everything to rare alt-forms? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:00, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
I understand that. But it would also mean that we're no longer able to link to these alt forms with additional accents. If you use ô instead of ō, it links to the wrong page. That's something to be aware about. —CodeCat 12:19, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, but there's no way to tell from the wikitext whether an accented o should link to an o with or without the macron. Assuming the rarer form means guessing wrong most of the time. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:01, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Pinging Latvian native speakers @Čumbavamba, Neitrāls vārds. - -sche (discuss) 22:16, 2 July 2016 (UTC)
There was ŗ and ō in Latvian some time ago, but now aren't. Another letters, such â, â, â, doens't exist in Latvian. Letter y is in Latgalian, which is Latvian dialect. --Čumbavamba (talk) 20:49, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Links in template derEdit

Hi. I noticed that when I use the der (derived) template, it doesn't always link to the correct language heading. For example, I added the following to the etymology of German Seide: Latin saeta ‎(horsehair; bristle; silk), which when clicked on, takes me not to Latin saeta, but to Spanish saeta. This may be due to Spanish being at the bottom of the page. Can this be made to link to Latin ? Leasnam (talk) 01:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Is this a problem specific to that template? For me, the {{der}} link works exactly like saeta#Latin or saeta, and the link it generates is correctly to saeta#Latin. The issue AFAICT is a (longstanding) bug that when there's collapsible content further up a page, and one clicks any link that points to an anchor lower down on the page, the page may load and pull the browser to the anchor while the content is uncollapsed, after which the collapsible content collapses, leaving a different part of the page visible. (Sometimes the browser subsequently corrects for the shift and re-focuses on the anchor.) - -sche (discuss) 02:47, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
For me, too, these links all work exactly the same; they correctly use the anchor "Latin", but in all cases, because of the bug -sche mentioned, the link does take me to the bottom of the page, which is the Spanish section:
  • {{der|de|la|saeta||horsehair; bristle; silk}}
  • ''[[saeta#Latin]]''
  • {{m|la|saeta}}
When the page is already loaded (with Spanish showing up on my screen), if I click on the address bar (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/saeta#Latin) and press Enter, the page goes to the correct section (Latin) without loading again. (on Firefox)
If I click "Show quotations" and "Show inflection" on the left side of the screen, and then click on the link to ''[[saeta#Latin]]'', it goes directly to the Latin section, as it should, because there's nothing to collapse. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 04:34, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
Ok. Thank you for looking into this, and for the expalanation :) Leasnam (talk) 15:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Pointing to #Verb from Template:en-past_ofEdit

Back in 2011, someone suggested making {{en-past_of}} link to the #Verb anchor, rather than the #English anchor. 3 years later, this was rejected on the basis that #Verb might not always be correct (but #English would). This does not seem accurate to me (as I explained on the linked talk page). Further discussion (and a change by an admin, once consensus is determined) would be welcome. JesseW (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

There could be a Translingual verb section. There could also be a different English verb; for example, if flied pointed to fly#Verb rather than fly#English, it would be confusing because it would be pointing to a verb that doesn't have a form "flied". If it points to fly#English, on the other hand, the reader knows that the form is there somewhere, even if it takes a little looking for. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
The id= parameter, along with {{senseid}}, was introduced to allow templates to link to specific senses. It can be used here too. —CodeCat 12:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
That's close, but {{senseid}} only lets you point to a specific sense, while what is needed is a way to point to multiple senses (e.g. on desert, there are two senses, which deserted can refer to either.) Suggestions? (Angr -- very good point about fly.) JesseW (talk) 00:55, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Just point to the first one? —CodeCat 01:03, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
I would do that if it was a pure anchor, but it also highlights the definition, which to me implies that the link doesn't apply to the other definitions, which is misleading. JesseW (talk) 03:34, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Just how many Translingual verbs are there now? How would such things come about? DCDuring TALK
There are 3 currently in Category:Translingual_verbs (but only seems to actually have a Verb section). JesseW (talk) 03:40, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

w:Template:Multiple imageEdit

Is anyone able to create a version of w:Template:Multiple image here? Lua is beyond me. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I could really use such a thing for family- and higher-level taxonomic names. DCDuring TALK 21:50, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
Example images
{{multiple images}} should be set to go. KarikaSlayer (talk) 03:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Is there any reason why we don't use the same name as the English Wikipedia template, though? — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
The "s" is because I typoed. Should we have it as {{multiple image}} or {{Multiple image}}, though? KarikaSlayer (talk) 21:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Since there are multiple images, why not keep the plural? It makes more sense to me. —CodeCat 21:31, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


Is there a specific reason why the tables are ordered right-to-left? Our Arabic templates don't do this, and neither does {{fa-basic}}. It's also pretty unintuitive on an English-language wiki. KarikaSlayer (talk) 00:26, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

It was just something the person who made it liked to do. I don't think anyone would mind much if you want to switch it to left to right. DTLHS (talk) 00:33, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Category:English terms derived from CaranquiEdit

There must be some error in Module:families/data that causes this incorrect categorization. DTLHS (talk) 17:43, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Nope, the error was in Mod:languages/datax. I've fixed it and all the resultant module errors. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:25, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Btw, for anyone who wasn't aware, WT:DATACHECK tracks such clashes. - -sche (discuss) 18:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Adding new rhymesEdit

When I tried to use the "add new rhyme" tool at "Rhymes:English/æɹɪti", it gave the error message "ERROR:TypeError: (intermediate value).parentNode is undefined". "* {{rhymes|æɹɪti|lang=en}}" was successfully added to the entry page "tutelarity", though. — SMUconlaw (talk) 21:35, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I get the error only when adding to the seven-syllable rhymes section; others are fine, oddly. Equinox 21:05, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

{{tooltip}} and {{l}}Edit

I'm currently trying to add mouseover transliterations for {{el-decl-noun}}, but they aren't working in the template. Hard-coded {{l|el|αγγούρι|3={{tooltip|{{xlit|el|αγγούρι}}|αγγούρι}}|tr=-}} works just fine (αγγούρι), but {{l|el|{{{1}}}|3={{tooltip|{{xlit|el|{{{1}}}}}|{{{1}}}}}|tr=-}} just displays the link (with no tooltip). KarikaSlayer (talk) 15:51, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it's more accessible if the transliteration is shown as text in the table, tooltips are too hidden and I have no idea how they're supposed to be accessed on systems without a mouse pointer. It doesn't have to be cluttery, look at how Russian, or even French, display it. —CodeCat 19:48, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Pinging @Saltmarsh. KarikaSlayer (talk) 20:52, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

It is of course more accessible - but surely anyone looking at a table is going to be familiar with the syllabary in question and can hover (if enabled) or follow the link if they are interested. Showing the transliteration detracts from the effort taken to present a clear, easily read table.   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 05:00, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Issues with pronunciation in {{fr-conj-auto}}Edit

{{fr-conj-auto}} is throwing up some odd pronunciations in the verb errer (and verbs ending with it such as serrer), saying that erre, erres, errent are pronounced /e/ instead of /ɛʁ/. This only seems to happen with verbs with this spelling, as clairer which rhymes is shown correctly. I presume this is something going on with the code that makes final -er pronounced /e/.

Relatedly, I note that all three verbs are displaying with the stem vowel /e/ rather than the correct /ɛ/ in forms such as errons/clairons, errais/clairais, erra/claira (I know there's some metaphony going on with /ɛ/ being raised to /e/ before an ending containing /e/ or /i/ but it doesn't occur before other vowels and it's allophonic anyway). 18:55, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

The missing /ʁ/ should be fixed. KarikaSlayer (talk) 20:46, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Module:fr-verb should really have test cases to detect things like this. DTLHS (talk) 20:49, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Time zone bug!Edit

Recent Changes is showing the correct time, but (for example) WT:TR is showing all the time-stamps an hour earlier. It's about 04:20 now, but the message I just posted in the Tea Room is showing a time of around 03:20. Definite bug. Equinox 03:23, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

It's 8:31 UTC now, and my timestamp is showing that, so maybe it's been fixed. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:31, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
My initial message in this subsection still shows 3:something for me, so nope. Equinox 08:31, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
The timestamp of your initial message is plain text now, so it's not going to change. But if the time registered in the history matches the real time, then the bug is fixed. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:39, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Strange invisible characters againEdit

What did I just change with diff? I can't tell what it is, but it's blocking MewBot from adding in {{cog}}. —CodeCat 17:54, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a nonbreaking space (U+00A0). DTLHS (talk) 17:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
String converters (like this) can be used to see what's going on. --Z 17:48, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
string.__repr__() in Python works too (yields {{etyl|fo|-}}\\xa0{{m|fo|-ligur}}) . --Njardarlogar (talk) 21:12, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Rewrote {{given name}} in Lua and added featuresEdit

{{given name}} now supports a new parameter |xlit= for an approximate transliterated name, in addition to |eq= for an equivalent name. For the difference, consider e.g. Михаил ‎(Mixail) with transliterated name Mikhail and equivalent name Michael. It also supports multiple transliterated and equivalent names, and multiple main forms of diminutives, along with alternate display text and manual transliterations of those main forms. Note that |xlit= isn't named |tr= because it's not used to represent transliterations in typical Wiktionary form but in "popular" (approximate) form. Benwing (talk) 17:17, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I added support for dimtype= to specify endearing and pejorative diminutives (which exist in Russian). I tried to display the value of from= in the defn line, as someone requested, but it messes up lots of existing names like Ashley. Benwing2 (talk) 23:59, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
Seems useful. Thank you. :) - -sche (discuss) 03:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Template for "see ..." in defns?Edit

How do you put a definition that refers to another word? In this case the word is йо́ркский ‎(jórkskij), which is an adjectival version of York but also occurs as part of нью-йо́ркский ‎(nʹju-jórkskij), the adjectival version of "New York". One definition should say {{lb|ru|attributive}} [[York]], while another should say "See нью-йо́ркский ‎(nʹju-jórkskij)" or something similar. I know about {{only in}} but it doesn't seem right because the term has a definition on its own, just one that's not as common as when it forms part of the larger word. Benwing2 (talk) 03:21, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

If йо́ркский only means "New Yorkian" when it's in the form нью-йо́ркский, I have seen {{only in}} used even when there are other senses present on other lines. But if йо́ркский can sometimes be a synonym of нью-йо́ркский, then using {{synonym of}} seems like the thing to do. - -sche (discuss) 03:54, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I'm pretty use that йо́ркский only refers to New York in the form нью-йо́ркский. Benwing2 (talk) 04:01, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that йо́ркский refers to anything at all in the form нью-йо́ркский ‎(nʹju-jórkskij). As our etymology section indicates, that form is Нью-Йорк ‎+‎ -ский, not нью + йоркский. The only definition of йо́ркский ‎(jórkskij) should be "pertaining to York (e.g. England or Ontario)"; it shouldn't also say {{only in|нью-йо́ркский}}. Likewise I wouldn't expect an English entry Yorker that's defined as {{only in|New Yorker}}. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:58, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, maybe a better example is яга́, which occurs primarily in баба-яга but also has some meanings of its own. Benwing2 (talk) 02:59, 12 July 2016 (UTC)


Hello. Can somebody fix it? Something went bad and now many transcriptions don't look the way they should (see Template:es-IPA). All I did was to remove excessive narrowness in phonetic transcription. Mr KEBAB (talk) 11:19, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Besides, the example: "{{es-IPA|hielo}}: /ˈjelo/, [ˈjelo]", found here, was utterly wrong, as no diphthongs starting with /j/ can appear word-initially, only the /ɟ͡ʝV/ sequence can (see Martínez Celdrán - Problems in the classification of approximants (2004)). Therefore, initial <hiV> is the same as <yV> (where V stands for "vowel"). Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Please add test cases to Module:es-pronunc/testcases, so we can have a better idea of the expected behavior and the current problems. DTLHS (talk) 19:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, but that module should display both phonemic (between slashes //) and phonetic (between brackets []) transcriptions, or only phonetic ones. As of now, there are only phonemic transcriptions, and we don't have any problems with those - it's the phonetic transcriptions that are problematic, though JohnC5 helped me a bit with that (thanks man). Mr KEBAB (talk) 19:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
OK, I think. DTLHS (talk) 19:37, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
(Sorry, Firefox crashed and deleted my post, it pissed me off and I had to take a break).
Thanks for fixing it, it works as it should. Here's the list of the problems:
- First of all, we have a really weird problem of <ɟ͡ʝ> not being displayed correctly and therefore it is not detected as a single sound, so that the approximant allophone [ʝ] doesn't appear where it should. On the other hand, the other affricate, <t͡ʃ>, is displayed without a problem!
- The post-pausal, word-initial voiced plosives /b, d, ɡ/ are incorrectly transcribed as if they were approximants *[β, ð, ɣ], but they should be transcribed [b, d, ɡ] because they're not lenited unless a word-final non-nasal (in case of /d/ also not the lateral /l/) consonant directly precedes them - see [1].
- /o/ in the word cónyuge is incorrectly transcribed as not nasalized *[o]. It is nasalized, because it precedes coda /n/ - see [2]. I think that the fact that <ɟ͡ʝ> seems not to be detected by the module is directly influencing the non-nasalized transcription, because when I briefly switched the symbol <ɟ͡ʝ> to <ɟ>, the vowel was transcribed correctly...
- Word-initial prevocalic sequence <hi> is incorrectly treated as if it were a diphthong onset, but, as I said above, only /ɟ͡ʝ/ can appear word-initially. <hiV> is merely a spelling variant of <yV>, where "V" stands for "vowel". Mr KEBAB (talk) 22:24, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
All of these bugs should be fixed. KarikaSlayer (talk) 00:54, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Some of them are but, again, some of them aren't - see Module:es-pronunc/testcases. We also have a weird bug on pez#Pronunciation_2, where the Latin American pronunciation (/ˈpes/) is not listed at all... Mr KEBAB (talk) 00:58, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
I disagree with the statement that /j/ cannot occur word-initially in Spanish. Argentinian Spanish, at least, makes a clear distinction between word-initial hi- [j] and word-initial y- [ʃ]. A minimal pair is hierba vs. yerba (as in yerba buena, yerba mate). Benwing2 (talk) 03:08, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Also hierro vs. yerro. Benwing2 (talk) 03:09, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
The source above disagrees. Mr KEBAB (talk) 05:05, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
The source above doesn't say which dialect of Spanish it's referring to. It seems to be treating Spanish monolithically, which is careless. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:16, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
That's still much better than going with someone's OR. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:49, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
This isn't Wikipedia. There's a huge amount of information such as pronunciation that can't be sourced to Wikipedia standards for many entries. Even when there's sourcing it takes quite a bit of synthesis (another dirty word at WP) to make it work in the entries. I don't know that it's a good idea to exclude regional pronunciations because speakers haven't checked the latest phonological research before having a conversation. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:01, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Even if Benwing2 is right, we still have no idea how widespread that distinction is. I really don't think that his word is enough in this case. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:45, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
FWIW, the Spanish Wiktionary itself (which one would expect might know a thing or two about Spanish) says es:hierro /j-/ and es:yerro /ʝ-/, and es:hierba /j-/ and es:yerba /ʝ-/, are not homophones. Lourdes Aguilar, Vocales en grupo (2010), page 57, has some information about this, commenting that "Desde este punto de vista, las palabras hierro y yerro serían homófonas en la norma castellana, aunque no en otras variantes." - -sche (discuss) 15:02, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
That's good to hear, because it fits perfectly with our European-Latin American distinction. Does the author say anything about the /ʝ-j/ issue before other vowels? Mr KEBAB (talk) 15:22, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
This phonemic contrast seems to be based on spelling pronunciations, since hierba and yerba are etymologically identical, both coming from Latin herba. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
How the contrast originated is irrelevant. The question is only whether it exists. --WikiTiki89 17:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Maybe not completely identical: the difference in spelling might be an indication of regional borrowing, or of a different register. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

CAT:Pages using invalid self-closed HTML tagsEdit

What is causing CAT:Pages using invalid self-closed HTML tags to show up on a bunch of pages? I'm finding it on several Irish entries (e.g. abhaill, abhainn, achar), but I can't find any HTML tags on those entries. Is it being triggered by a template? There's no template listed in the category, so if so, I don't know how to find the template causing the trouble, nor what exactly the trouble is. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:22, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

<p /> used in {{ga-decl-f3}}. There may be other templates with the same problem. DTLHS (talk) 15:28, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
<p /> should be replaced with <br />. Can we do this by bot? --WikiTiki89 15:34, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
{{rfd}} uses a self-closed <span id="..." /> tag. I think this should be allowed. This is a bit ridiculous. In the Irish declension templates, <p /> is just superfluous and can be removed entirely. --WikiTiki89 15:43, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm going through them all now and removing it. For the life of me I can't remember why I ever put it in in the first place. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:57, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
It might be ridiculous but if they're going to complain then it's easy enough to fix. DTLHS (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Writing <span id="..."></span> instead of <span id="..." /> when you don't need to have any content between the tags is ridiculous. I refuse to fix these and will actively oppose the "fixed" syntax. --WikiTiki89 16:10, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
[3] It sounds like they are planning to make this syntax break totally in the future. So you may not have a choice. DTLHS (talk) 16:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
That's pretty nonsensical. <span/> is by definition allowed in XML and is considered more or less equivalent to <span></span>. Are they trying to break XML compatibility? —CodeCat 16:23, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
HTML has never been fully XML-compatible. That's what XHTML was for. --WikiTiki89 16:28, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Breaking that compatibility on purpose is worse though. I think XHTML is the way forward. —CodeCat 16:40, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
In general, most of the ways HTML breaks compatibility are beneficial. However, this particular thing is pretty ridiculous. --WikiTiki89 16:46, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
I Googled around a bit more and found that <span id="..." /> was never valid HTML and was always interpreted as just an opening <span id="..."> tag. Supposedly this causes a lot of weird problems. Maybe fixing these to <span id="..."></span> will solve some of our weird formatting mysteries. --WikiTiki89 20:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Right. HTML predated XML, and it's always had various elements where the end-tag is either optional (e.g. <p>; the element ends when it has to either due to a containing element ending, or due to a start-tag for an element that can't be contained in a <p> element) or actively forbidden (e.g. <br>; the element is inherently empty). XML doesn't allow that concept, but it has a "empty tag" concept (such that e.g. <foo/> is equivalent to <foo></foo>); and experimentation showed that existing (pre-XHTML) browsers simply treated e.g. <foo /> (note the space) as if it were <foo>; so with XHTML (a reworking of HTML to be XML) came the recommendation to use XML's empty-tag syntax for elements that are inherently empty, but otherwise to avoid it. That way XHTML pages would still work correctly with pre-XHTML browsers, even though it wasn't actually valid HTML. (And MediaWiki has, for years, supported using HTMLTidy to clean up bad (X)HTML, including converting XHTML that doesn't conform to this recommendation into XHTML that does.) —RuakhTALK 05:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
I've fixed all of the Irish declension templates. There are still other pages in the category, but I feel like I've cleaned up my own mess. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Is <references /> an invalid self-closed HTML tag? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:28, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Answering my own question: no, but <noinclude /> is. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
I've cleared out the category all except for MediaWiki:ExtractFirst.xsl, mostly because I don't understand what it is for, what XSL even is, and why the page is wiki-rendered rather than rendered as source code like JS and CSS pages. --WikiTiki89 18:28, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
XSL is an XML-based transformation language. So it shouldn't be considered Wikicode; it's XML, and self-closing tags are perfectly valid for it. —CodeCat 18:37, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
FWIW, the purpose of the page is explained on the talk page. - -sche (discuss) 18:50, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

How to stop the option, Compact language links?Edit

I noticed today that the languages list is compacted instead of leaving all (or allowing us to always show some languages). How to stop that option? I see no option to stop it. In Wikipedia we can enable of disable this option from the Beta features. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

It's in Preferences, under the Appearance tab. Keith the Koala (talk) 19:52, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Number of language codesEdit

would it be possible, without being too "expensive", to have WT:LOL or some other page (WT:STATS?) display a real-time count of how many language codes there are? This information would be of interest to people (such as me) examining how many languages there are and how many have entries. - -sche (discuss) 18:55, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

 Done (diff, diff). Feel free to change the wording. Also, let me know if you want separate counts for natural vs. reconstructed vs. constructed languages. Or if you also want a count of etymology languages, scripts, or language families. --WikiTiki89 19:16, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you! Counts of natural vs. reconstructed vs. constructed languages would be useful. However, there is a distinction between "constructed languages", some of which have no type= set (but which all have family = "art"), and "appendix-only constructed languages" (type = "appendix-constructed"). Counts of both would be interesting. Of the two, I'd be more interested in knowing the number of family = "art" languages vs actually-natural ( "art") languages, but it's easy enough for me to generate a count of family = "art" languages when I need one, so I can do without a real-time/automatic count if one would be too difficult to add. At this time, I don't see a need to count scripts or families. Our script codes overlap enough (Latn, Latinx) that a count of codes wouldn't have much relation to the number of distinct scripts we include. - -sche (discuss) 20:02, 15 July 2016 (UTC)


Why does risk appear in Category:Ancient Greek terms needing native script? Even if this can be explained and justified in someone's mind, it seems likely to waste someone's time, as it has mine. DCDuring TALK 22:07, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Because of {{der|en|gkm|tr=riziko|t=sustenance obtained by a soldier through his own initiative, fortune}}. In this case, we treat gkm as an etymology-only variety of Ancient Greek, and the module adds these request categories whenever someone uses a linking template without the actual term to be linked. The alternatives would be to either throw a module error, which would be rather disconcerting for someone who doesn't know Ancient Greek and just has transliterations, or to ignore it and hope someone thinks to add an attention template. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:07, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Nobody forced you to make this thread. In what way did it waste your time. DTLHS (talk) 23:10, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Trying to track down the source of the problem so I could correct it. I won't make the mistake of trying to track down such problems again. DCDuring TALK 23:52, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Category:Ratahan languageEdit

For some reason, I can't get Language family, ancestors, or script into the parameters. Could someone please help me out here? I think it may have something to do with internal coding rather than templates? Philmonte101 (talk) 21:15, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

That's because it was already all included in the data modules- no action required. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:31, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Typographical error in user page template.Edit

"User pages of accounts that do not contribute to the dictionary proper may be deleted after about a week." Isn't that supposed to be properly? Philmonte101 (talk) 03:34, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

No, see sense 2.3 of proper. DTLHS (talk) 03:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
User:DTLHS This sense seems rare and doesn't make sense to me. Could we please change it to properly? I think it would be more clear to most readers if we did. Philmonte101 (talk) 02:16, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
That doesn't mean the same thing. I like it as it is, personally. Equinox 02:46, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm only saying this because, though the definition is real, I've never in my life seen or heard proper used this way. Could it perhaps be a British-only thing, or rare, or something that is very formal and usually written? Philmonte101 (talk) 03:20, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Also, it's sort of a dangling modifier. You can't tell if it's referring to the user pages not contributing to the dictionary or if it's the "accounts". I guess that's partially what confused me about this as well. Philmonte101 (talk) 03:23, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Let's make audio recording easy!Edit

Hi! This was an actual Wikimedia student/intern project that came to naught, IIRC, but we have plenty of people here who can code pretty well, and (while I haven't kept up, and am gradually becoming Old Uncle COBOL) I believe that it's now fairly easy to do audiovisual stuff in HTML5. So what about it? We must have some hacking talent who can simplify the current horrible process of creating, uploading, licensing (!!) and entry-embedding our beautiful voices. See also [4]. xx, Equinox 18:36, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Is your only complaint about User:Yair rand/AddAudio.js that it only works in Firefox? DTLHS (talk) 18:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
How does one use that? — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Add importScript( 'User:Yair rand/AddAudio.js' ); to your common.js. By the way I was able to get it work in Chrome by enabling experimental web platform features in chrome://flags/. DTLHS (talk) 19:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, will try it out! — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:48, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry that was the wrong link: try User:Smuconlaw/common.js. DTLHS (talk) 19:50, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Ha, ha, too late. But I figured it out, and have tagged Talk:Smuconlaw/common.js for speedy deletion. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Not actually aware of that! (I use Chrome. I don't really want to install another browser, but I might do, for this purpose.) For the purpose of me installing Firefox purely to record shit for Wiktionary: 1. Does it work well and reliably? (Can regular Wiktionary users vouch for it?) 2. How do you actually use it? The page says it lacks documentation. Pretend I'm your grandmother. 3. Are we okay for the legal aspect, since Wikipedians regularly delete audiovisual media that lack the tiniest permission detail? (4. Brownie points only. I thought HTML5 was a standard and we didn't have BLINK and IF-IE6 any more. Why do I need to install a whole other browser just to record my voice?) Equinox 19:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Like I said I'm pretty sure you can get it to work with Chrome now. DTLHS (talk) 19:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@Equinox: Grandmother-level instructions on how to use it:
  1. To enable the script, go to Special:MyPage/common.js, click the "Edit" link (or "Create"), paste importScript( 'User:Yair rand/AddAudio.js' ); into the text box, and press "Save page".
  2. To add audio to an entry, navigate to the entry, and press the "⚫" button next to the "Add audio pronunciation" text. (It should be in the Pronunciation section, or where a pronunciation section would go if there was one.) If this is your first time using the tool, you may need to select a microphone from a list given in a box that pops up. Say the word into the microphone, and then press "⚫" again to stop recording. You can press "►" to listen to the recording to make sure it sounds right, and if it doesn't, you can press "⚫" to try recording it again. For certain languages, you can select a region/dialect code for the audio by clicking on one of the codes to the right of the "►" button. Press "✔" and then click the "Save page" button at the top-left corner of the screen to add the audio to the page and upload the file to Commons. Make sure to wait until the cursor stops showing the "loading" icon before navigating away, so as not to cut off the upload in the middle.
(Okay, maybe not quite grandmother level, but hopefully good enough?)
Re the legal aspect, I kind of just assumed that anyone using the script already knows/consents that content added is licensed under CC-BY-SA 3.0 and GFDL. The script makes the files uploaded have that added as their license by default. --Yair rand (talk) 18:58, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
I added it to the common.js but nothing has changed and entries have no new section. Equinox 03:35, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
It is very small: http://i.imgur.com/Owr6mBk.png (and make sure you're using Firefox / did a hard refresh etc) DTLHS (talk) 03:41, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
@Yair rand: I tested it in Firefox and works really well. :) I have the following questions:
  1. Will this work if the sound file already exist and a new version with improved quality needs to be uploaded?
  2. How can we control the volume of the recording? It is slightly lower than manual recordings. Compare ablakot (assisted recording) and ablak (manual recording using Audacity).
  3. The only way to cancel a recording is to close the tab or move to a different webpage, correct?
  4. After recording was completed, I had to make some minor formatting changes. Are these by design?
    1. moved the audio line from below the Pronunciation header to under the IPA line
    2. capitalized the file name (The file name that is uploaded to Commons correctly starts with a capital letter, but the file name in the audio line is not capitalized.)
    3. added the word Audio after the file name (e.g. {audio|Hu-ablakot.ogg|Audio|lang=hu})
Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 18:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
  1. If the sound file already exists, the script gives a "Audio file already exists." error. Should it overwrite it instead? Or upload a new one with a different file name? (With _2 or -2 appended, perhaps?)
  2. There's no way to do that from the script itself, but there's usually a way to directly change the microphone volume settings from one's computer directly.
  3. I'm not completely sure what you mean. You can start a recording over by pressing the record button again. If you've already pressed "✔", you can press "Undo" at the top-left to undo it.
  4. Neither WT:EL nor Template:audio give very clear guidelines on how these are supposed to be formatted, so I just looked at a (perhaps non-representative) sampling of entries and copied what I saw there. The position of the audio template seems kind of inconsistent, so I just set it to always put it at the top of the Pronunciation section. If you could give clear rules for where more specifically it's supposed to be placed, I could edit the script to place the template there instead. (Note that some entries have IPA templates on the same lines as an audio template of the same dialect, and some sections have text right before the IPA template.) Many entries don't have the file name capitalized, so I followed that. Should I change it to always capitalize? And so that it adds the word "Audio" by default? (Currently, it only adds "Audio" when an accent/dialect is specified.) Both of these would be easy changes to make.
--Yair rand (talk) 02:14, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
@Yair rand:
  1. Manual uploading a new version of an existing file is a different process than uploading a new file. Users have to go to the specific audio file in Commons and click the "Upload a new version of this file" link. The old version is never deleted from Commons, at least I've never seen it. All versions exist on the same page, visible in a table (e.g. [5]). The name of the new file has to be the same as the old one for at least two reasons: A) Other FL wikis run bots to check for new recordings, if the file name does not match the entry name, they might not work. External applications, such as glosbe.com, are also pulling audio from Commons. We want to have the same recording everywhere. B) The audio files are categorized in Commons, the number of the files in the categories would not show the actual number of the files. (It's interesting that the browser's cache has to be refreshed to connect to the new version.) So overwriting the file or uploading a different file name are not a direction we should take. I think it's ok if you don't add this functionality to the tool. It's still a tremendous help.
  2. Volume: I will check this on my computer.
  3. Canceling recording: There is a third case: let's say I recorded and re-recorded a couple of times, but I have not pressed "✔" yet, but for some reason the session has to be canceled. I think I just simply move to a different web page and that cancels the recording session.
  4. If there are no guidelines, it probably requires voting. There was a discussion earlier here [6]. As for the position and for the Audio label, don't make any changes to the tool, I will do the formatting. But I am curious what the reason is for the different file names: correctly capitalized in Commons but lower case here.
  5. This is a new question. Can this tool be misused? Is it available to every registered user? What if someone uploads an incorrect audio? I think people at Commons do check the uploaded material, but I'm not 100% sure and even if it is discovered that it was uploaded by mistake (or on purpose by ill will) it is a lengthy process to request a deletion.
--Panda10 (talk) 13:08, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
It is available to every registered user. If someone adds incorrect audio as simple vandalism, it could probably be {{speedydelete}}ed on Commons and rolled back on the corresponding Wiktionary entry. I think it's unlikely that anyone will be using the tool for vandalism, but if it's a concern, I suppose we could add an AbuseFilter tag to audio additions to make patrolling easier. --Yair rand (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


I tried installing the tool and using it, but got this error message: "Error: NotSupportedError: Operation is not supported". I'm using Firefox 47.0.1. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Using Chrome I can record, but there seems to be a problem uploading: vulnerability @Yair rand DTLHS (talk) 20:06, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I got the whole process to work on Firefox- I'm guessing there's some cross origin request issue with Chrome that prevents it from uploading. DTLHS (talk) 20:16, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Presumably this represents either a vuln in Firefox or a bug in Chrome. Our tiny voices will be ignored for 3 years but is there anything we can report? Equinox 20:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I think it's a security feature in Chrome- there are ways to disable it, but we should wait and see what Yair rand says. DTLHS (talk) 20:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
@Smuconlaw: The Firefox issue should be fixed now, I think. @DTLHS: Chrome currently doesn't support directly recording to .ogg, afaict, so Commons is returning a filetype-mime-mismatch. --Yair rand (talk) 18:31, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, that's unfortunate. DTLHS (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it's working in Firefox now! Just tried it out. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:02, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Yair rand, I am having problems creating "File:En-uk-aspartame.ogg". The gadget keeps reporting that the upload has failed. I had accidentally recorded the pronunciation wrongly, so I asked an administrator to delete the file which has been done. However, the gadget doesn't seem to allow a new file to be uploaded. — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

@Smuconlaw: This is just a wild guess. Try to clear the cache in your browser. I know this is different but when I manually upload a new version of a sound file, the browser will keep playing the old version until I clear the cache. --Panda10 (talk) 21:55, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
Nope, I cleared the cache and deleted cookies, but the gadget refuses to upload the file, reporting an "Upload failed" error. — SMUconlaw (talk) 14:27, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Audio into WT:FUNEdit

I'd like to use the audios as part of a new WT:FUN competition. Not so sure on the ins and outs of the game, though. Something like X Factor??? --Turnedlessef (talk) 19:07, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Further browser supportEdit

How possible is it for this to gain further browser support? If this worked in Safari, I'd probably use it all the time :) -Xbony2 (talk) 15:41, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Unlike Chrome, which is supports MediaRecorder but doesn't support the audio/ogg mime type, Safari doesn't support MediaRecorder at all. So, we'd need a complete polyfill for MediaRecorder which works on Safari. I have yet to see one that works. (Preferably, it would use the same syntax as MediaRecorder itself.) --Yair rand (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Template calqueEdit

(1) the glossN in parameter {{calque}} does not seem to be working (see Μάγχη). (2) Were existing examples of its predecessor tN updated at the time of the change? (see 水素) — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 06:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

tN= and glossN= should be equivalent synonyms. Do they both not work? —CodeCat 15:37, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Neither of them work — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 04:31, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Ah, I found the problem, it's fixed now. Note, though, that the numbered parameters of {{calque}} are deprecated, and it's preferable to just use {{compound}} or another appropriate template instead. —CodeCat 12:23, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't say Μάγχη ‎(Mánchi) is a calque at all. It's a sort of a transliteration of Manche. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Oops! and thank you — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 06:26, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Template:R:Webster 1913 display problemEdit

This template creates a url as follows:

  • [http://www.websters1913.com/words/ + <pagename or 1st parameter> + <space> + <pagename or 1st parameter> + ]

This works fine for single words, but if there's a space in the term, wikisyntax interpretation turns that into a link to:

  • http://www.websters1913.com/words/ + <everything in pagename or 1st parameter before the space> with <everything in pagename or 1st parameter before the space> + <space> + <pagename or 1st parameter> as the displayed text.

In other words, {{R:Webster 1913|plume grass}} displays: grass plume grass (followed by other text).

The link doesn't seem to be a problem, because the site apparently has multi-word terms on the same page with the main word, but it sure looks peculiar. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

AFAICT the site we are now using for Webster 1913 only links to single words. The second word does not seem to make any difference, at least with a space as separator. On other sites I have had to use other characters, such as "+", "-", and "_" to obtain a link to an MWE.
I found an MWE that the site actually has: "White horse". I cannot get to it using our template, which takes me to the entry for "White". The site seems a good deal more amateurish than the University of Chicago site we had been able to use. I hope there is another Webster 1913 site that we can use. Free Dictionary is better, but doesn't yield only Webster 1913 references. DCDuring TALK 18:35, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
That's because we should be replacing spaces with "%20" in the URL. --WikiTiki89 18:43, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Did you try that? DCDuring TALK 20:25, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes. I just don't know whether there is an easy way to do that automatically from a template, or whether we have to resort to lua. --WikiTiki89 20:28, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
[7] DTLHS (talk) 20:30, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Are you saying that we have to replace "plume grass" with "plume%20grass"? That doesn't seem to work: see User:DCDuring/Template:W13. Neither the display nor the page link work. DCDuring TALK 20:45, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Hold on. The link to their entry for "White horse" works, with %20 hard-coded into {{{1}}}. The remaining technical problem is that the display shows %20.
The non-technical problem is one with the website that does not redirect from plume grass to their entry at Plume, where plume grass is a run-in. DCDuring TALK 20:52, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Would Lua save us? DCDuring TALK 20:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Relax, you only have to change the template, not the input to the template. Of course the redirect thing cannot be fixed, however. --WikiTiki89 21:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Fixed --WikiTiki89 21:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Of course now the accidental correct link from "plume grass" to the entry "Plume" has been replaced by a link to non-existent "Plume grass". It will be necessary to insert correct one-word links for MWEs and have the display as at present . DCDuring TALK 21:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I didn't figure out how to keep all current template usage unchanged and allow a single-word entry with a run-in to be the target for what we have as a multi-word entry. If optional parameter 2 for the target entry is used then parameter 1 must specify the display, even if the display is the same as PAGENAME or parameter 2. I look forward to seeing a better solution. DCDuring TALK 23:54, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I tweaked the template. Is it working as intended now?

SMUconlaw (talk) 19:21, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

I checked many of the entries with spaces or hyphens and good results seem to occur with minimal extra typing (less than in my clumsy version). Thanks.
For some entries replacing {{R:Webster 1913}} with {{R:OneLook}} gives better results, at least if some modern dictionaries have the term. DCDuring TALK 20:05, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I also note that some uses of {{R:Webster 1913}} are of the form (hypothetically at [[plume grass]]) {{R:Webster 1913|plume}}plume in Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam, 1913. I think this makes it less likely that newer users would persist in paging down to the run-in for plume grass. DCDuring TALK 20:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I suppose those occurrences will have to be manually replaced. — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
There aren't very many. I wonder whether the template display should say something like "See plume grass at plume in Webster ...." DCDuring TALK 02:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
That's a good idea. I've updated the template – see the new documentation page (is it clear enough?). — SMUconlaw (talk) 18:15, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I wish could do better than guess at what might work best for normal users. The documentation looks good for the use cases we have so far. DCDuring TALK 19:36, 31 July 2016 (UTC)


Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to know what word could be used for plural of support to be meant backing(s), is it wrong to say supports for plural of backing, if yes why?.

What word could be used for say "financial supports" at all? I mean to have many support from different sources not only one.

Best regards...Vaziri

While this isn't the best venue for this type of question (the Tea Room is where questions about terms generally go), I will try and help here. The sense of support which you are using is uncountable, so you never pluralize it. Instead, if you want to indicate that there is support coming from multiple sources you would form your sentence "...getting financial support from Jim and Jane..." or "...financially supported by Mary and Mark...". - TheDaveRoss 16:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Splitting etyl cleanup into languagesEdit

Would it be possible to split CAT:etyl cleanup according to the language section where {{etyl}} is being used? In other words, could all instances of {{etyl|...|en}} categorize into CAT:etyl cleanup/en, and so forth? I feel more confident deciding whether to replace {{etyl}}+{{m}} with {{der}} or with {{inh}} in some languages than in others. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:32, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

That would lead to a lot of categories being created, so I think it would be best to limit it to some languages at once, the ones we're actually interested in categorising. Which languages are you interested in? —CodeCat 14:37, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
All Celtic languages (including non-modern ones) as well as Burmese and Lower Sorbian. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Done. —CodeCat 15:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:01, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


I've noticed for a while that the notifications on the top bar are switched; I'm getting talk page notifications under "Alerts" and thank notifications under "Notices". Also, I don't think pings are getting through to the notifications. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:20, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

This is all dev stuff. They're messin around and using us as guinea pigs because Wiktionary is not important like Wikipedia is. --WikiTiki89 15:31, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I think that arrangement makes sense tho. Alerts (talk page, mention, revert) are more important while notices (thanks, linking) are less so. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 16:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It's just confusing that it keeps changing. --WikiTiki89 16:11, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Remove rollback link from the watchlist in preferencesEdit

I'd like to remove the rollback link from my watchlist in preferences. My iPhone's Safari seems to have some problems. I click on wrong links most of the time and it's nothing to do with "thick fingers" The correct link is seen as highlighted when I click on it.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:50, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

CSS .page-Special_Watchlist .mw-rollback-link { display: none; } should work. —suzukaze (tc) 20:23, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c Thanks but sorry, could you please clarify what I need to do? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Copy and paste it to Special:MyPage/common.css. —suzukaze (tc) 01:49, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
@suzukaze-c Thank you! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:19, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
No problem! —suzukaze (tc) 10:20, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Fixes to Module:fr-verbEdit

@Kc kennylau, Hillcrest98, Esszet Could one of you add these features? (1) An argument allowing for a respelled stem to be given to indicate the proper pronunciation of the stem. This should ideally support multiple such stems to properly handle déjeuner and déjeusner (see tea room comments), e.g. |pronstem=déjeun,déjeûn. I implemented similar kind of stuff in Module:fro-verb, Module:ru-verb, Module:ru-noun; you might get some hints here. If multiple such stems is too hard, at least support one; if this is still too hard, support disabling the pronunciation entirely. (2) Correct pronunciation of i in -ions, -iez. This should be pronounced as [i] not [j] after two or more consonants. Thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thanks for your attention. On which verb do you see the second problem? Thanks. --kc_kennylau (talk) 23:52, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@Benwing2: The first issue has been solved. --kc_kennylau (talk) 23:58, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
@Benwing2, kc kennylau: I just checked déjeusner and although the code has been added the problem still persists. 2WR1 (talk) 00:03, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau Check out montrer for example. Also, in approprier, is the pronunciation /a.pʁɔ.pʁi.je/ with consistent /ij/ correct? I would have expected prier /pʁi.e/ to be different from hypothetical priller /pʁi.je/. Benwing2 (talk) 07:14, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
@Benwing2: For montrer, I have fixed it. For approprier and prier, cf. fr:Annexe:Conjugaison en français/approprier. Also, cf. fr:Annexe:Conjugaison en français/briller which shows that prier and *priller do not have all the forms identical in terms of pronunciation. --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau Thank you! Another issue: Check out the difference in pronunciation of the future and conditional in approprier vs. the French equivalent. Benwing2 (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 12:57, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau Awesome! Benwing2 (talk) 13:06, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Fixing redirects to Reconstruction namespaceEdit

Before we had the Reconstruction namespace and reconstructions were in the Appendix namespace, there were often hard redirects from alternative forms to main forms. For example, Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/nepot- redirected to Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/népōts. But when we shifted to the new namespace, only the main entries were shifted, while redirects were left in the Appendix namespace, but had their targets changed to the Reconstruction namespace, so that Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/nepot- redirected to Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/népōts. The problem is that links like {{l|ine-pro|*nepot-}} now point to Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/nepot-, which (up until a few minutes ago, when I fixed it) was a redlink. So we had bluelink redirects in Appendix namespace with nothing linking to them, and links pointing to nonexistent pages in Reconstruction namespace. Can someone with a bot please go through all redirects of the form [[Appendix:Proto-$1/$2]] and move them, without leaving a redirect, to [[Reconstruction:Proto-$1/$2]]? Thanks! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:17, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

There are also a whole bunch of old redirects from pages with spaces instead of slashes in the title (e.g. Appendix:Proto-Semitic *kalb-) that can be outright deleted. --WikiTiki89 14:22, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, but those aren't so urgent because there aren't pages pointing to red links because of them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Why doesn't automatic Arabic etymology transliteration work in this entry?Edit

The latest FWOD amanaty needed some improvement in its Arabic etymology. I replaced the misspelled red-linked Arabic etymon with a blue link to the correct word أمانة. The transliteration amānah needs to accompany the Arabic script. In other uses of the etyl template, the automatic transliteration works, but not in this one, even though I've coded it by carefully imitating how the template is used in cases where it does work. There's no difference that I can see, yet mine doesn't work. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 00:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Arabic needs the full vocalisation to be transliterated. Now, I can't find the Russian word mentioned there - аманат or аманати. If "аманати" is supposed to be the plural of аманат, then it's incorrect. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:02, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you both so much. Johanna-Hypatia (talk) 23:31, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

August 2016

bot no longer worksEdit

SemperBlottoBot no longer works. This follows [8] that wants me to change HTTP to HTTPS. But nowhere in my code do I have HTTP. I don't know what to do. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps, the library you use needs updating. --Giorgi Eufshi (talk) 07:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


Could someone run a bot to fix the alphabetical order for translations into Norman and all other translations that are out of order because of this? One latest example is flannel#Translations. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:10, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

  • This question has arisen before. I have been resorting them manually whenever I come across them. This job should have been done when the merger was made. DonnanZ (talk) 10:34, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
In that case, perhaps you can ping the guilty party. DonnanZ (talk) 14:42, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


This didn't work when I added it to customs declaration. I have never tried using it before; am I missing something? DonnanZ (talk) 10:41, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

The normal mode that Cambridge's site uses for links has "-" as a word separator rather than a space. Other sites use separators like "_" or "+". Solutions are:
  1. Type {{R:Cambridge|customs-declaration}}, which works now yielding customs-declaration in Cambridge English Dictionary, but needs typing.
  2. Use {{R:OneLook}} which has many dictionaries available, including at least some from Cambridge, which works now without extra typing.
  3. Convince someone to prepare a Lua routine that replaces a space with a character specified in templates like {{R:Cambridge}} or several of the taxonomic reference templates.
  4. Let someone do Lua with a data module that has the separator character for each website in a database DCDuring TALK 11:16, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Solution 1 will be OK as a workaround until the template is adapted. DonnanZ (talk) 21:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Categegory for English SemordnilapsEdit

I noticed that there is no category for English semordnilaps. I looked at trying to make one, but as I have no worked with modules before, I thought I'd ask first. Could someone please create the category for me, or tell me how to? I hope this is the right place to ask. Thank you! Zumley (talk) 15:46, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't think you need a module to create a category. Just add your new category to an entry (the existing one is [[Category:English palindromes]], so you could create [[Category:English semordnilap]]) and it will appear as a red link at the bottom of the entry. Click that and save the resulting blank page. Thereafter, all pages given the category will appear on that page. I feel a little leery about the term semordnilap, since it's not really standard English (does any mainstream dictionary have it?), but I can't think of any better term for them. It will also be editors' responsibility to add and remove the tag as needed: e.g. if an entry is removed (by failing verification, etc.), that might affect its reverse-spelled entry, needing us to remove the tag from there. Equinox 01:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Symbol ^ is used to capitalise Korean transliterationsEdit

@Wyang Hi. Somebody must have changed the modules again. This - 뽈스까 (ko) ‎(Ppolseukka) should link to the 뽈스까 on the Korean Wiktionary, not ^뽈스까. Symbol ^ is present in the template but not displayed, it only capitalises the first letter of the transliteration. This is a North Korean word for Poland. See the translations section there.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:03, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Someone may have fixed this - seems to be working at Poland now. Wyang (talk) 01:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
@Wyang I mean the interwiki link (a small "ko") in {{t+|ko}}. Try clicking on the little "ko", it will try to search for ^뽈스까 in the Korean Wiktionary. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:10, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Ah sorry I see what you mean Anatoli. Fixed. Wyang (talk) 02:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


This was (along with extensive edits to Module:pl-noun to make it work) was created by User:Esszet, who apparently didn't know how to keep it from showing a module error on the template page itself. Can anyone fix it? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. Wyang (talk) 03:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
That was quick! Thank you! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:55, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


Can someone rewrite this to allow for the Latin script? Ultimateria (talk) 03:43, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@Ultimateria I don't see anything obvious in the template that would make it not work with the Latin script. If it's defaulting to Tagbanwa for some reason, |sc=Latn should work. KarikaSlayer (talk) 13:36, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I thought we could get templates to detect scripts? Ultimateria (talk) 15:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Does it not already allow the Latin script? --WikiTiki89 15:14, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Is the issue that it adds "Ilocano terms needing transliteration" if the term is already in Latin script? Other than that, it seems to work (i.e. it displays fine). - -sche (discuss) 18:58, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
I fixed that issue, at least. The problem was that the template was manually including the request category rather than letting {{head}} do it automatically. —CodeCat 19:01, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

In an interesting twist, the non-Latin script listed for Ilocano is Tagb (Tagbanwa). The wiki for w:Ilocano language says that Ilocano instead used Tglg (Baybayin) historically. Furthermore, the two Ilocano entries we have in non-Latin script (ᜉᜈᜄ᜔ᜉᜃᜋᜆᜌ᜔ and ᜀᜎ᜔ᜇᜏ᜔) are in Tglg, not Tagb. So, I think we have an error in the language module. Is that correct? —JohnC5 20:52, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Separately: I suggest we just lemmatize on Latin script, rather than having some entries in Latin script and some entries in another script. - -sche (discuss) 21:28, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


The template is now broken, but a few days ago it still worked. Hopefully it can be fixed.

  • Usage of the template: {{R:L&S|DISPLAY|SEARCH}} or {{R:L&S|1=DISPLAY|2=SEARCH}}
  • Example: {{R:L&S|juxtā|juxta}} displays "juxtā" and should link to "juxta", but now it also links to "juxtā" which gives "No document found" and "We're sorry, but we were unable to find a document matching your query."

-Poskim (talk) 15:03, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@Isomorphyc: Could you fix this for all Perseus Latin templates? —JohnC5 17:13, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
@Poskim: I believe it has been fixed now. —JohnC5 17:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
@Poskim, JohnC5: Fixed; thank you. I didn't mean to break that one. Isomorphyc (talk) 17:28, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you too. -Poskim (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Special:BookSources issueEdit

The page "Special:BookSources" contains the text "Learn how to bypass this page and go to the same book source every time", which links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lunchboxhero/monobook.js. However, this is a page at the English Wikipedia which does not exist here. Thus, creating a monobook.js page at Wiktionary actually does nothing. Could someone either import the script, or remove the misleading text? Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

@Smuconlaw: I've copied the instructions to User:Keith the Koala/common.js User:Keith the Koala/BookSources.js, and the script itself to User:Keith the Koala/externISBN.js. I'd also suggest putting the code in your common.js instead of monobook.js, that way it won't depend on what skin you're using. I don't know how to edit the Special:BookSources intro. Keith the Koala (talk) 10:36, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, it's working fine! Hope someone can edit "Special:BookSources" accordingly. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:11, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Renaming "SIC" as "sic"Edit

The template {{sic}} was originally renamed {{SIC}} as sic was an ISO 639-3 code. However, it has since ceased to be one, at least from February 2009 when it was turned into a redirect to {{SIC}}. Does anyone object to making the primary template {{sic}} again, and turning {{SIC}} into a redirect? — SMUconlaw (talk) 20:20, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm fine with it. —CodeCat 20:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
A usabiity improvement. DCDuring TALK 21:21, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I suppose so; though isn't it a bit unwise to use any three-letter lower-case code, if future ISO changes are liable to break it? Equinox 21:24, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't think we need to care about that any more. DTLHS (talk) 21:34, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
Correct, because we no longer have the language codes as templates. (Compare how see is still a valid language code, but we have {{see}}. Indeed, we already have {{sic}}, this is just a proposal to make it the main template and make {{SIC}} a redirect, reversing the current arrangement.) - -sche (discuss) 22:14, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
OK, this seems uncontentious and there were no objections so I went ahead and made the move. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

I can't see Parser profiling dataEdit

As the title says. Clicking on the triangle to show it reveals an empty expanse with a height of 1em or something. The HTML source shows me an empty table. —suzukaze (tc) 03:39, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

It seems like it was converted to a JavaScript variable [9], but I'm not quite sure how to access it easily... —suzukaze (tc) 03:11, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Weird hidden categoryEdit

Maybe I'm accidently screwing up my entries, but I don't understand why a hidden category – "head tracking/no lang category" – seems to be following me around lately. For instance schior has this hidden category. I always try to make my entries as correct as possible, so this really bugs me. Any advice? --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:51, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Think @CodeCat answered all my questions :-) --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:05, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

"elements" and "wikipedia" templatesEdit

Is there any way to get {{elements}} and {{wikipedia}} to play nicely together? See ytterbium, where {{elements}} should sit below {{wikipedia}} aligned with the right margin, but refuses to do so. — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

 Donesuzukaze (tc) 21:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. So, what's the trick? Did the templates themselves need to be altered in any way? — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:56, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I did this, which {{wikipedia}} already does. —suzukaze (tc) 01:46, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Ah, good to know. — SMUconlaw (talk) 03:45, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Support for head2= in {{suffixcat}}, {{prefixcat}}Edit

@CodeCat Is it possible to support head2= in these templates? See Category:Russian words suffixed with -клинить, where both -кли́нить and -клини́ть are possible. I'd like to say {{suffixcat|ru|-кли́нить|head2=-клини́ть}} or similar. Benwing2 (talk) 19:32, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

head2= seems inappropriate since this is just a regular link and not a headword. Do you have a better term? —CodeCat 19:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe form2=? Benwing2 (talk) 21:33, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

What are the criteria for a Japanese abbreviation and a Japanese short form?Edit

@TAKASUGI Shinji, Eirikr, Bendono I'm confused about the difference between the two templates {{abbreviation of}} and {{short for}} regarding Japanese headwords. Apparently, Western loans such as ダイヤ ‎(daiya) or テレビ ‎(terebi) fall into the abbreviation category, while Chinese derivatives such as  (こく) (れん) ‎(Kokuren) belong to the short form category: the former is similar to English abbreviations such as pixel or gym, while the latter which retains Chinese morphemes (Kanji) is more like software lifecycle being short for software development lifecycle. That being said, they are seemingly created in the same fashion: by dropping a couple of morae. So which is which? Which template should I use? ばかFumikotalk 02:20, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Most of them should be classified as short forms. Abbreviations should be pronounced as a original form, such as Mr.. However, this distinction is not clearly made. See Category:English abbreviations and Category:English short forms. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:29, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji What about cases like OL? They're not pronounced like what they stand for too either. ばかFumikotalk 01:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe initialism? Although it takes the first letter of the romanization in a European manner... —suzukaze (tc) 01:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
IMO most of them are short forms; abbreviations are , , , etc. —suzukaze (tc) 02:39, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Entering Translations for PlautdietschEdit

When it comes to entering translations for Plautdietsch into the section for translations, I wish I could only enter the masculine, feminine, neuter and plural options, just like one would do for German or Polish. What module (or something else) can facilitate that mechanism? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 07:40, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Why would you enter all those forms into a translation table? Translation tables only have lemmas. —CodeCat 21:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
I think he's just complaining that there are too many gender checkboxes. --WikiTiki89 21:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

AJAX call to retrieve word information from one specific languageEdit

I recently posted this as a question on StackOverflow, and I am hoping that someone with experience in both JavaScript and the Wiktionary API will be able to help me.

Thanks in advance

Wiktionary has no API. You will have to write your own function to split the page by language section (always level 2 headings). DTLHS (talk) 18:56, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
We could make one, though. Lua/Scribunto is capable of retrieving the page wikicode and parsing its contents. —CodeCat 19:01, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
That would be very useful. Let's do it. DTLHS (talk) 19:02, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
The problem would be dealing with malformed page content. I've made efforts to standardise the format further, but not everyone is going to stick with it. I think at best, we can try to parse just sections for now. —CodeCat 19:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. We should start with the top-level part of a page that everyone agrees on: the language sections, interwikis. If it catches on we can start going deeper and eventually make it part of WT:ELE that the page should conform to the module. DTLHS (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
We do already have WT:NORM which was made for this kind of thing, but since it was made optional for non-bots, it somewhat defeats the purpose. —CodeCat 19:20, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
I think the module should be able to output a canonical version of the page that conforms to WT:NORM. If we could do this it would make it very easy to write an autoformat bot. DTLHS (talk) 19:22, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I have written a Wiktionary wikitext parser that converts it into xml, if anyone's interested. This is the result of one xmlization of Table with wrapInterwikis, wrapCategory options set.

--Dixtosa (talk) 19:16, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

There's also mwparserfromhell, written for Python, which I use a lot for bot edits. My preference is for a server-side implementation though. —CodeCat 19:20, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
mwparserfromhell is a good thing. I use it a lot too. Benwing2 (talk) 06:01, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Unpatrolled edits are no longer redEdit

Using Chrome, in Recent changes the exclamation mark for unpatrolled edits is no longer red but black. What changed? DTLHS (talk) 19:59, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Adding support for theoretical forms to headwords?Edit

@CodeCat What do you think about adding support for theoretical inflections to Module:headword? I'm thinking of supporting this in Russian declension tables, and it would be nice if the headword matches. This would mean there would be a flag to turn this on when specifying an inflection, and it would display the inflection italicized, unlinked and preceded by a *. Benwing2 (talk) 20:36, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

How would this differ from a reconstructed form? —CodeCat 20:45, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
It's sort of the opposite of reconstructed. It means the forms don't exist, but could have existed and/or could be created ad-hoc, and this is what they would look like. Something like this:
те́мя ‎(témja) ‎(genitive те́мени, plural *темена́, genitive plural *темён)
--WikiTiki89 20:55, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
So like a defective verb? I don't think we usually use an asterisk for this- what about coloring them gray? DTLHS (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Not quite like a defective verb, but more like a verb that just happens to be used usually only in the present tense or with a particular person/gender/number, but theoretically could be used in the future or another person/gender/number. --WikiTiki89 20:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Wikitiki here. The use case is Russian nouns in particular that normally appear only in the singular, but which potentially have plurals, e.g. молоко́ ‎(molokó, milk); the plurals occasionally appear but are considered затруд. = "difficult", which we normally render as "rare and awkward" or something similar. It could also be used for the many verbs that have similarly rare/awkward past passive participles (although these probably won't appear in headwords).
I would make it display something like this:
те́мя • ‎(témja) ‎(genitive те́мени, plural *темена́, genitive plural *темён)
Or maybe
те́мя • ‎(témja) ‎(genitive те́мени, plural *темена́, genitive plural *темён)
Benwing2 (talk) 22:44, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't think this makes much sense. Either they're used or they're not. The usage frequency doesn't come into play. For English, the template allows for an extra message to say the noun is mostly uncountable. —CodeCat 23:50, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
This kind of stuff makes sense in Russian. See [10] for example. If you don't like it I'll add the support myself. Benwing2 (talk) 00:02, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
The intended use is when the plural is not attestable to our standards (or at least not in every grammatical case), but nevertheless could exist. This has nothing to do with countability. It could be a countable noun but nearly always used in the singular. The plural declension is not as straightforward as just adding an -s like in English, so it would be useful for readers to show how the plural is formed should they ever need to use it. --WikiTiki89 00:32, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
If it's not attested, then to show it would be a reconstruction. We don't need a special notation. Even the Russian page shows it as a reconstruction. —CodeCat 01:25, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
This makes no sense to me. If it's a reconstruction we do need special notation. In any case, Russian grammars like Zaliznyak distinguish between missing forms and затруд. forms. Benwing2 (talk) 02:09, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not convinced that this is a good idea, but if you do it, I suggest that instead of having the forms be unlinked, it would be helpful if you had them all across the board link to an appendix or WT:ARU where you explain why they're listed but marked with asterisks. Alternatively, if you use superscripts or asterisks, I would suggest that instead of spelling out the full note in every entry and having individual entries be given slightly different notes that might lead someone to think there was a difference between them, it would be better to have a parameter like difficultplural=1 which, when set, would generate the note. The note could also link to a section of WT:ARU where you go into more detail on how some words are difficult and have accepted theoretical plurals that are simply not used. - -sche (discuss) 03:58, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
I support the inclusion of unwikified theoretical forms in the headword. They are not reconstructions. The forms nominative plural *темена́ and genitive plural *темён are grammatically correct forms of темя, even though they are not used. If someone asked me, what the plural form of те́мя ‎(témja) is, the correct answer is "темена́", even if these are considered "awkward" (the Russian grammarians use the term "затрудни́тельный") and almost never used in the real life. "темена́" is also different from missing or proscribed forms, e.g. there is no 1st person singular future for победи́ть ‎(pobedítʹ), any theoretical form in this case would be incorrect. There are many examples of theoretical forms. One can make diminutives almost from every noun or form verbal nouns from verbs. There may be no attestations for them but these may still be considered standard Russian terms or forms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:52, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
@Equinox The current system using asterisks/superscripts and footnotes is not the ideal way to handle these forms. Your suggestion is not a bad one, although I'd still want them to not be made blue like normal links, so they stand out more. Benwing2 (talk) 05:59, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
  • My long-term position is that unattested inflected forms should not have entries or at least should have entries that mark them as hypothetical, but I have not seen consensus to support that position. My similar position is that unattested inflected forms should not be shown on such a prominent place that is the headword line. I do not see what "theoretical" means in the above discussion other than "hypothetical", meaning "such that it could exist but does not actually exist", and I oppose extensive inclusion of hypotheticals in the English Wiktionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:10, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Getting mw.log() to workEdit

Inserting mw.log() into module code to get console output has never, ever, ever worked for me. Not in Chrome, not in Safari. (Mac OS X 10.9) As a result I've been reduced to debugging 5000-line modules using error() ... hardly very convenient. Does this work for anybody? If so, how? Benwing2 (talk) 03:03, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

It (used to) output to an area under Templates used in this preview called Parser profiling data. Now the output has been moved to a JavaScript variable that can be seen by using View source on the webpage (somewhat conveniently all the way at the bottom): Module:Sandbox, [11]suzukaze (tc) 03:12, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Yuck. That's quite inconvenient. And it means the text "Use mw.log() in module code to send messages to this console." that appears near the debug console is totally wrong. Benwing2 (talk) 05:55, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Automatic creation of English alternative forms.Edit

Is there a bot or a gadget somewhere that can do this? I understand that a lot of the rare English terms that I add have a hyphened alternative form of it that is also attested. I'll tell you, it is really, really annoying to have to create the main form and the hyphen forms and their non-lemma forms as well. Is there a way to autocreate these? If not, is there someone who could possibly make something like this? Conrad.Irwin hasn't been online for 3 years. Philmonte101 (talk) 04:30, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd say bots shouldn't do this because it needs a human to confirm that the alt form really does exist. Equinox 05:29, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Invisible Template:prematureEdit

For some reason, {{premature}} is invisible to me in Android, instead of generating a yellow box saying that a vote is premature. Is there a problem with the template? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

It seems like class="metadata" is hidden on mobile. —suzukaze (tc) 21:35, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I've removed the class. This template seems like data about the vote which we'd want people on mobile to be able to see. - -sche (discuss) 22:21, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Newest/oldest requests not displaying in categoriesEdit

I haven't tracked down another category to see if this is a universal problem, but in Category:Translations to be checked (French), the box that shows the newest and oldest additions to the category isn't displaying any words. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 18:43, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I purged the page and it seems to be working now. --WikiTiki89 19:02, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Unhide bot edits on the Watchlist when they are hidden in preferencesEdit

I noticed that when I have bot edits hidden from my Watchlist in preferences, trying to temporarily unhide them by unchecking the box on the Watchlist page does not work. Unhiding them in preferences does work. Anyone experience this too? Is this something that should be reported at phabricator? --WikiTiki89 22:07, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Language-specific alphabetization?Edit

Since this did not attract answers here, I shall ask again here: Is it technically possible to have categories, derivative tables and other lists of terms from a single language sort with a different scheme than the default? I find that the incorrect sorting detracts from the quality of the dictionary.__Gamren (talk) 09:03, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

You have to add a sort key manually. For example, "[[Category:Stuff|Nonsense]]" will sort the page on which this category is placed under "Nonsense". Is this what you meant? — SMUconlaw (talk) 09:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
No, not really. Categories and the template {{der2}}, to take two examples, automatically alphabetize the terms they are given. This results in incorrect sorting for some languages. What I mean is, can we make these appliances recognize what language they are working with, and sort differently for different languages?__Gamren (talk) 09:59, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm not really understanding what you mean by "Categories and the template {{der2}} ... automatically alphabetize the terms they are given" (maybe you can give an example). However, in general, I don't think there is a way to make a template like {{der2}} automatically recognize the language of a entry to which it is applied. The template would have to be edited to allow editors to add a language code manually, e.g., {{der2|en}}. — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:33, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Sure thing. Consider the following:
and [12] and compare them to Appendix:Latin_script/alphabets#Danish_alphabet. See that the template reorders the terms. Clear now?__Gamren (talk) 11:40, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
We can add a sort key to Module:languages/data2 that will modify the sorting order in everything that uses that module. We just need to know the correct order of all the letters. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:44, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gamren: oh, yes, I see what you mean. Chuck has answered your question – I didn't know this was possible. Chuck, see "Appendix:Latin script/alphabets#Danish alphabet" that Gamren referred to above. — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:53, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gamren I created {{Template:der3-u}}, which is identical to {{der3}} except it does not automatically sort the arguments. Sorting is difficult and even if the proper sort keys are added it may not work correctly. DTLHS (talk) 14:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I had seen that page before, but thought it could only modify which characters are seen as distinct, not completely change the ordering (which no language seems to do). Is the syntax just sort_key = {"a", "b",snip"z", "æ", "ø", "å"},?
__Gamren (talk) 14:35, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
It's not possible to change the ordering of characters in a category. This is a huge shortcoming, which the developers somehow seem to ignore. Per-category custom collation orders are an absolute necessity. —CodeCat 14:41, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
For those categories added by templates, it should be possible to include a sort key in most cases. Categories added by hand, or those with both hand-added and template-added members, no such luck. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:46, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
So, uh, would someone do that? The page is protected.__Gamren (talk) 10:53, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
I use {{der3-u}} for Norwegian and the results are quite satisfactory. You have to do the alphabetical sorting yourself, of course, but the balancing is done automatically. DonnanZ (talk) 11:07, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
It was discussed here [13]. DonnanZ (talk) 11:42, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
@Gamren Which template do you want modified? Benwing2 (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary offlineEdit

Hello, I am sometimes in locations without connectivity to the internet, but I'd still like to have access to Wiktionary for reference. How can I set up a local copy for offline reference? Thanks. Codeofdusk (talk) 15:54, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't know an easy way. You can download the whole project here [14] but (i) it's very large and (ii) this just gives you the data (in raw wikitext markup), not a browsable Web site. Unlike Wikipedia, we don't publish offline CD/DVD versions. Equinox 12:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I haven't used it, but the Kiwix tool has most Wikimedia projects available for offline viewing. I think the en.wiktionary version is about 2gb. Edit - if you do end up using it, please let us know how it goes. - TheDaveRoss 15:22, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
User:Matthias Buchmeier's user page details his method of creating downloadable dictionaries for offline use. If you're interested in a single language that isn't already listed on his user page, you could ask him if he had time to create it for you. - -sche (discuss) 15:26, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Langcatboiler and no script specified languagesEdit

Category:Kalasha language- linking to Category:No script specified script. Is this the desired behavior? Are we going to create this category? DTLHS (talk) 16:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

New words to be addedEdit

I've come across the word "scotography", meaning radiography and the word "vapography" in context of photography, in late 19th century literature. Can this word be please added to Wiktionary? Thanks. Ineuw (talk) 03:37, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

It's better to place requests for entries at Wiktionary:Requested entries (English). "Scotography" appears to have quite a few meanings, including thermography, radiography, some process of producing images with a silver plate, and the production of images of ghosts. DTLHS (talk) 04:13, 19 August 2016 (UTC)


Will there be an update to Unicode 9.0 for this page? -- Pedrianaplant (talk) 11:29, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Module:es-pronunc: bugEdit

Something went wrong with that module: implementing the template {{es-IPA}}, it doesn't always display Latin American pronunciation when this is different (namely, /θ/ > /s/ and /ʎ/ > /ɟ͡ʝ/):

  • (Castilian) IPA(key): /esˈtaʎo/, [esˈt̪aʎo]
  • (Latin America) IPA(key): /esˈtaɟ͡ʝo/, [esˈt̪aʝo]

Could anyone find the bug and fix it? Thanks! [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo] (parla con me) 22:10, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Why is /ɟ͡ʝ/ being used to represent [ʝ]? That's very weird. Also, [ʎ] in Spain is recessive and characteristic only of rural speakers in Northern Spain. I think the module should display [ʝ] for this instead, even in Spain. Benwing2 (talk) 00:22, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe we could change that in Castilian phonetic transcription, but I would keep the traditional phoneme /ʎ/; and I would also display y as [ʝ]. However, before we do that, there's this matter above to solve. Is the mistake in the module or in the template? [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo] (parla con me) 08:24, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
I think it's a template bug. The template code is pretty nasty and should be moved to Lua. It looks like it's not generating the Latin American version when the Spain version has the same phonetic and phonemic display. Benwing2 (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau Can you take a look? Benwing2 (talk) 16:28, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
If Castilian and Latin American IPA transcriptions are the same, the template isn't even supposed to display both, and just gives a general transcription without {{a}}:
But when they're supposed to be both displayed and only the Castilian is given, then it appears with the accent specification, as above. [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo] (parla con me) 16:35, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Wait a second: I think I found the bug. When phonemic and phonetic IPA are identical, the template only displays the former; but, in such a case, if Castilian phonemic transcription is different from Latin American phonemic transcription, the latter doesn't display. Can anyone fix this? [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔt̪ːo] (parla con me) 16:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98, Benwing2 Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 20:21, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Show/Hide not appearingEdit

Once more the what is concealed by {{rel-top}}, {{trans-top}} and their relatives cannot be displayed. See [[moss]]. I haven't tried any other entries yet. DCDuring TALK 22:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Intermittent problem that slows multiple edits of the same page. No problem on first accessing page. DCDuring TALK 23:05, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
What browser? What does your error console say? DTLHS (talk) 23:39, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
This is usually a problem with your browser: the box is added by javascript running on your browser, then the "show" tabs are added. If something interrupts the javascript after the box is added, but before the "show" tabs are added, the result is as you're describing it. More often than not, it's just a matter of things not loading right, and clicking "refresh" or "reload" on your browser will fix it. Sometimes, though, there can be a problem with a gadget or something else that uses javascript, in which case you'll need to troubleshoot it further. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:09, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

New Vulgar Latin templateEdit

I've created User:KarikaSlayer/VL-noun (backended by Module:User:KarikaSlayer/VL-noun and VL-translit) as a replacement for {{VL-decl}}. The phonetic notation has been updated to match WT:AVL (including stress markings, something that is missing from the current template). Any ideas/criticism welcomed. KarikaSlayer (talk) 03:00, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

It's not quite correct. Latin -um gave -u in the second declension, and the nasalisation was lost already. I also believe that b merged into v by this time ("brabium non bravium"). I'm not sure why the second declension genitive would be -ei, given that short i was not lowered before another vowel but indeed short e was raised in this position ("vinea non vinia"). So -ii would just coalesce into -i, like in Italian. I'm also very unsure about the change of -dj- to -j-, is this really pan-Romance? Finally, there's a third group with respect to vowel outcomes: Sardinian. Sardinian merged all short and long vowels, even i and ī. —CodeCat 12:47, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
All of these should be fixed. About -dj-, Herman 1967 (1997 translation) says: "On the other hand, inscriptions from the second century A.D. onward show more and more confusions in spelling between the following letters and digraphs, which seem at times to have appeared to be interchangeable: i when it represented [j], as in maior; di when it represented [dj] before a vowel; g when before [e], [i], or [j]; and even the letter z, which had been borrowed from the Greek alphabet." I'm not sure about the exact environments, though: *absedium shows no trace of palatalization, while podium and *appodiō do. KarikaSlayer (talk) 18:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
-dj- in medius has a different outcome from -j- in maior in Italian, while radius shows yet another outcome. Also consider the two distinctive outcomes of maior in French: the nominative has the regular change -or > -re, and this prevented the fortition of the preceding j, while fortition did happen in the oblique form, from maiōrem. So I'm not sure this change had a single consistent outcome in all Romance languages. The French outcome in particular suggests that j was not fortified phonemically in the earliest individual history of French. I'd be interested to see what happens to Latin words ending in -dior if there are any. —CodeCat 19:09, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Words ending in -dior (that I can find at least) seem to be limited to passives and third declension comparatives (so no direct Romance descendants). KarikaSlayer (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
Any with -gior then? —CodeCat 20:20, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
No, same as before. KarikaSlayer (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps it has something to do with dissimilation from a preceding non-high back vowel, combined with the position of primary and secondary stress. It wouldn't explain everything (Latin meliōrem/Spanish mejor/French meilleur comes to mind), but it might add to other sources. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Blue M doesn't always appearEdit

When viewing a user's list of contributions, the unpatrolled ones get a blue M ("click to mark as patrolled"). I've noticed that this M never appears if I am working in a different tab when the page loads, and later switch back. Is this by design, or does it relate to how Chrome sometimes deprioritises inactive tabs? Equinox 20:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Watchlist page strangenessEdit

When I click on the "watchlist" tab, the page I get has search, navigation and tools on the left (under the logo), but none of the links there are clickable. Any ideas? SemperBlotto (talk) 06:44, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Fixed ✔ —suzukaze (tc) 11:14, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I had abandoned using the grouping of changes on the watchlist page because the icons to expand a pages changes no longer appeared. DCDuring TALK 12:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Z bug, diphthong bug with Spanish IPAEdit

A couple of problems with Module:es-pronunc:
1. Latin American Z is treated as a full S, which is wrong (that is because the change θ > s comes before the stress rules, which imply S as different from Z):

  • (Castilian) IPA(key): /beˈxeθ/
  • (Latin America) IPA(key): /beˈxes/ (vejez, should display as /beˈxes/)

2. some vowel clusters are considered diphthongs when they clearly aren't:

  • IPA(key): /ˈreal/ (real, should display as /reˈal/)

Could this be fixed? Thanks. [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] (parla con me) 14:56, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

LatAm z should be fixed. KarikaSlayer (talk) 15:37, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
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