Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

  • Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
  • Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
  • Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
  • If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
  • If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! JamesjiaoTC 22:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

When inserting wikipedia linksEdit

Just make sure you place the link inside the same language section that it belongs to, not outside of it. (e.g. for an English entry, place the template below the ==English== heading, not above it). JamesjiaoTC 22:58, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikisaurus, noodle and pastaEdit

Hello, and thank you for your contributions to Wikisaurus. I wonder why you have created WS:noodle in addition to WS:pasta, as these are approximately synonymous, right?

On the page WS:pasta, you have added this: "This page has Italian noodles and noodle dishes (including non-Italian dishes like macaroni and cheese made from Italian-style pasta. For all other noodles and noodle dishes, see Wikisaurus:noodle." Why would other noodles and noodle dishes be excluded from "WS:pasta"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:38, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. The pasta page was there first, and I started adding non-Italian noodles to it, but I found that calling "udon" and "japchae" pasta just didn't make sense. (Maybe it's all right to call German noodles pasta, but the word "pasta" has a definite feel of Italy.) I was going to put all the pasta items into the noodle page and delete the pasta page, but found that there are so many pasta items, that they overwhelm the noodle page. Unfortunately, in Wikisaurus, there doesn't seem to be a way to have an index at the top, so when all the pasta and noodles items are together, the page is not really readable.
So my solution was to make two pages. The information is easily accessible and readable. I would welcome a way to combine them that doesn't overwhelm the reader. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 18:17, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, also, for "holonym." BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 18:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
And, of course, not all Italian pasta is in the form of noodles. There are the short tubes (e.g. (deprecated template usage) rigatoni), the sheets (e.g. (deprecated template usage) lasagne) and the dumplings (e.g. (deprecated template usage) gnocchi). SemperBlotto (talk) 18:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Sure, "noodle" is rather a hyponym of "pasta" or not even that. I have no idea what made me say this: "I wonder why you have created WS:noodle in addition to WS:pasta, as these are approximately synonymous, right?" --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:33, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
No worries. I went back and forth several times. There's something about it these classifications that seem to overlap.
There are about 20 or 30 more items from the Wikipedia noodle category page that I have to enter, which will provide a good start for the Wikisaurus noodle page. One of the categories is brand names: wikipedia:Category:Instant_noodle_brands. Is there a reason to enter those? BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 23:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Wikisaurus is a part of Wiktionary, and brands tend to get excluded in Wiktionary per WT:BRAND. In WT:BRAND, seven criteria is given that each attesting quotation has to meet in order for the brand name to be included; I don't recall which brands have ever met WT:BRAND. --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the reference! BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 23:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Good job with all this pasta stuff. I have learned a new thing (that gnocchi can be pasta as well as potatoes), which I think Blotto mentioned. I like a bit of tortelloni. Equinox 00:02, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the kind words, Equinox. In the name of honesty, I must admit that I wasn't aware of how gnocchi illustrates the difference between pasta and noodles until SemperBlotto mentioned it. FWIW, I've just added a definition in paste which used to be used to mean pasta, an interesting case where one cognate (pasta) took the place of another (paste). It took Dan Polansky's reasoning for me to understand the proper ordering of it. Always lots to learn here! BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 00:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Certainly the pronunciation would be different, no? DAVilla 16:36, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
I would think "paste" meaning pasta would be pronounced just like regular "paste," but I don't actually know. --BB12 (talk) 17:51, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Linking to WS from main namespaceEdit

I have placed the link to Wikisaurus in dumpling to hyponyms section (diff), as I have done in "bird" and "mammal". Thanks for WS:dumpling!. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Repeated edits in one pageEdit

It is better to try to make as many additions in one edit in possible, with the use of the preview function of the wiki, and with a bit of patience. The page Wikisaurus:noodle shows a sequence of your 26 consecutive edits, which is kind of needless, also considering that each new edit creates a new copy of the page in the database. You can copy the text of the page to Notepad or other editor of your preference, edit the page there until you are satisfied with it, and then add it to the wiki. This is a rather typical newbie mistake that I was doing for a long time here, as no one has pointed it out to me. Thanks again for your contribution here. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I wondered about that. Thanks for the tip. Also, do you know why the start of the list on the noodle page is not in proper three-column format? It happened when I added the "noodles by form" section (which has to be renamed soon). BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 11:05, 27 February 2012 (UTC)


Wiktionary terms need to be attested per WT:ATTEST in order to be included. You have just added "lap chong bao" to a Wikisaurus entry, but the term does not seem to be attested: google:"lap chong bao" (9 hits), google books:"lap chong bao" (0 hits), google groups:"lap chong bao" (1 hit). Where do have the term from? Please do not add unattested terms to Wikisaurus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:51, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a very common food that I've had many times, so I'm surprised you didn't find it. As you mention, Google has only a couple hits, though. A quick Google search shows that the spelling lap cheong bao is preferred. The Wikipedia entry on lap chong has both spellings, though not with the bao part. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 18:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
The spelling "lap cheong bao" also is not attested: google books:"lap cheong bao", google groups:"lap cheong bao", google:"lap cheong bao". --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
It's a common enough food. One photo can be seen at [[1]]. I'll have to take a photo, though that might not be adequate proof. More photos can be found by searching on 臘腸包...BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 18:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
It does not really matter whether the food is common. What matters is whether the term is attested. Wiktionary is interested above all in terms--words and phrases. You need to find evidence that the phrase "lap cheong bao" is actually used in durably archived sources, as per WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
I did some more searching. It seems that it's typically called Chinese sausage roll in English. I've been calling them lap cheong bao for more than 20 years. It never occurred to me that other English speakers use something else. Anyway, it occurred to me that even though lap cheong bao and humbao share in the bao (包), part, a lap cheong bao is not a dumpling, so I'm deleting it. It will have to go as Chinese sausage roll in a page with pig-in-a-blanket. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 19:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, thank you for fixing the list!

BTW, since you brought up the topic of attestation, I have two questions. Once I get through listing the noodles and noodle dishes on Wikipedia, I'm planning to go through each noodle and pasta to find out if they are actually in use in English, and if so, to write up a Wiktionary entry. For those _not_ in use in English, my thought is to put them in a separate section, titled something like "pasta found in other languages" because the information is still useful. Does that sound like a good way to handle that?

Also, I keep running into the problem of alternate spellings: some words just have too many alternative spellings. My general rule was that if a person could reasonably guess that word X was a spelling alternative of word Y, I would include only one version. For example, the Wikisaurus:noodle page right now has both pancit and pansit (I failed to follow my general rule). So I think one of those should be deleted even if a Wiktionary entry is created for it. Does that sound like a reasonable solution? —This unsigned comment was added by BenjaminBarrett12 (talkcontribs).

Adding attested and idiomatic (WT:CFI#Idiomaticity) redlinked entries from WS:noodle to the main namespace would be great.
The English entry WS:noodle should only contain English attested terms. Terms that are not used in English should not be in WS:noodle at all.
Having both "pancit" and "pansit" is okay, but only if they are attested. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
One more thing: for terms whose attestation is in question, it is best to add attesting quotations to the citations namespace, as in Citations:adoxy. There, "adoxy" is attested by only two citations, so it is not included in Wiktionary; at least three are needed. (Again, consult WT:ATTEST.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:31, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you again for the kind response. [Wiktionary:Wikisaurus] says that it is still debated whether foreign terms should be in Wikisaurus. Is there a reason why you say they shouldn't be there?
The reason I'm concerned about alternative spellings is there can be a lot, on the order of seven to 10, overwhelming the other entries. Pancit/pansit is only two (which is why I didn't worry), but I'm concerned about listing something like: mee sum, mee som, meesum, meesam, meysum all in a row.
My thought is that it would be fun to try to find solid citations for each word as I go through the list, while adding derivative terms. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:36, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
What is open to debate is whether the likes of WS:příbuzný, a Czech entry of Wikisaurus, should be included. An English entry in Wikisaurus should only contains English term, just like an English entry in the main namespace of the English Wiktionary only lists English terms as synonyms.
"mee sum" does not even seem attested. To get acquainted with attestation, you should select a word and try to get it attested by collecting quotations from permanenty recorded media (not any web page; Google books is a good source) and adding them to the main namespace or the citations namespace of Wiktionary (not to Wikisaurus). Then you can ponder whether there are too many attested spellings. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
One more note on several spellings: you certainly won't do anything wrong if you only include the most common spelling at first. To compare frequencies of spellings, you can use Google Ngram Viewer. Here is Google Ngram Viewer for mee sum,mee som,meesum,meesam,meysum; it finds nothing. Here is Google Ngram Viewer for stingy, miserly, niggardly, parsimonious, penurious, peddling, scrubby, penny wise, penny pinching, tight fisted; it finds a lot of hits and shows a graph. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:05, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the response. The mee sum was only a random example I made up. I'll start adding all the variations I find attested even though I don't think it's a good idea. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 09:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


For what definition have you created Wikisaurus:therapy? (You have omitted a definition from the page; see WT:Wikisaurus/Format and almost any Wikisaurus entry for an example of how definitions are included.)

What makes you think that "massage" is synonymous with "therapy"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:15, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

"Massage therapy" is a common expression as massage is considered a type of therapy. I suppose it can be classified as being under therapy instead of synonymous, but it seems making them synonymous is useful. Once more items are up, it might become apparent that massage techniques can be separated out somehow, but the list is still too small to see what sorts of variations exist. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:19, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
"...it seems making them synonymous is useful."? Useful? What about accurate?
Is each therapy a massage therapy? Is "aromatherapy" a species of "massage", as you imply in WS:therapy? Do you know what "synonym" means? --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Again, what definition? --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for the feedback. You seem intent on attacking me at every possible turn and it's not enjoyable. I am not a perfect being and I'm sorry that I cannot live up to your expectations. I have seen other contributors make mistakes as well. If you have an idea on improving the page such as separating out massage or simply dropping "massage" from the synonym section, I would love to hear it. Wiktionary is a collaborative workspace and I look forward to collaborating with you and other Wikipedians in the spirt of cooperation. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
If you make serious mistakes, you have to expect to be called out on them. This is not a playground. Ranking "massage" as "synonymous" with "therapy" shows very basic lack of understanding of what "synonym" is, or disregard for accuracy. Cleaning up after careless people and monitoring their edits is not enjoyable. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
"Called out on them" is exactly the attitude I'm taking about. I am willing to listen to feedback, but there are ways to provide feedback that are negative and discouraging and ways that foster positive, collaborative work. Once again, if you have an idea of how to improve the page and are capable of discussing it in a positive, collaborative manner, I am willing to listen to it. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I asked you for a definition and you have not provided any. You are editing in a careless manner, and when I point out mistakes, you excuse yourself as an imperfect being. I ask that you figure out what "synonym", "hyponym", "meronym" etc. mean before you continute editing Wikisaurus. I ask that you put a definition into every Wikisaurus entry you create. I ask that you put enough thought and effort into what you are doing in Wikisaurus so that you do a good work (not perfect but good) instead of sloppy work. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
I am not excusing myself. I am saying your behavior is not in a cooperative, collaborative spirit. I'm sorry I failed to see that I was missing a definition. I reacted to your negative snipes rather than reading your comment thoroughly. I'm happy to make a definition, but that's going to have to wait until tomorrow. I look forward to working with you and other Wikipedians in a cooperative spirit. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:53, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Here's a useful page: Help:Interacting_with_humans :) BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 09:05, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

It looks like you've taken care of the Wikisaurus entry, so I will leave it at that, thank you :) BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 22:46, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Attestation of "gailan"Edit

I have sent "gailan" to WT:RFV. The term will be deleted unless attestation (WT:ATTEST) is provided. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:39, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. In about 10 seconds, I found three citations. It's a very common word. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Good, then add these citations either to gailan or Citations:gailan. I have not found any citations. Or to get started, post hyperlinks to these citations here. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:48, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
You will find them on the RFV page. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Then please put these citations to gailan or Citations:gailan, properly formatted. I figure you have found them by searching for google books:"gailan" Chinese. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:52, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea. I'm glad you suggested it. I will take a look at doing so tomorrow. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 08:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


Oh, and I have forgotten, do you think you could put {{Babel}} to your user page? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:11, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I've seen that on occasion and on your page but there's so much to look at, I never investigated it. I'll add that! BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Kailan citationEdit

I answered on my talk page. Hope you don't mind. — Xavier, 22:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)


See nl:diitiidʔaaʔtx̣ Jcwf (talk) 13:58, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

How about letting your source person fill out the 207 entries of a Swadesh list? That would provide a set of words that are easily translatable as well as useful for comparative linguistics.

Very cool! Thank you, Jcwf :)
The Swadesh list idea is a good idea. I do not know the speaker, but I will make this suggestion. BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 17:37, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Have you seen this fr:Catégorie:Noms_communs_en_ditidaht? Jcwf (talk) 23:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Wow, that is wonderful! Thank you for the reference!! BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 23:51, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Korean noodlesEdit

Are you familiar with the classification of w:Korean noodles? Judging by your userpage, I thought that (when this endangered language thing is over, maybe) you might want to add the terms currently listed as redlinks at 국수. I honestly can't tell the difference between some of them, so if you're interested, it's all yours! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:03, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Very cool, thanks. I actually know very little about Korean food, so I wouldn't be very good at doing them :( --BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 07:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

old RFVsEdit

Thank you for giving some attention and cites to those old RFVs! Once terms have been on that page for a few months, they tend to be ignored, and then I tend to delete the implausible ones, but the plausible ones tend to sit forever. - -sche (discuss) 08:17, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad to know of the problem of the old RFVs. I'll try to focus more on them to get them cleared :) --BenjaminBarrett12 (talk) 09:41, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Standard formsEdit

A quick change: knowing about the confusing identity of Isanese (midway between Thai and Lao, and variously assigned to each), I think we need a minor change. All the exclusions for the languages of Southeast Asia should be only for standard forms. This will allow Isanese, which has internet penetration comparable to Lao, to be protected even if somebody considers it to be "Northeastern Thai" (like {{tts}} does). That should be the last new thing before the vote. Thanks --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

I see this as okay because regardless of the name, "Northeastern" Thai is not Thai. In any case, I added the ISO code to Thai. Does that do it? BTW, I read an account of the Isan a few years ago. It was fascinating. --BB12 (talk) 23:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
That should be a good solution. Isanese doesn't really deserve an ISO code, but if it has it, we might as well use it. (When I visited Isan, I used standard Thai and was fully understood. Then again, I also used standard Thai in Laos and was understood almost all the time, so maybe that doesn't count for much.) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

OK, a little update: I made a template, User:Metaknowledge/ldl for the mentions. You can see how it works in real life by taking a peek at User:Metaknowledge/scratch. Note how it added the page to the (currently redlinked) Category:Zarma mentions. Normally I don't like people editing my subpages, but this is all yours, so feel free to do what you want with the template. Currently, it requires inputting the language's ISO code; I can remove the need for that by merging this template with {{head}}, but head is sufficiently scary to me that I figured I shouldn't bother with that yet. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:05, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Very exciting! I'm going to dig right in. I'm also going to add language to the proposal suggesting the ldl template. --BB12 (talk) 17:28, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, still not completely happy, but I've changed the wording. Because it's easier to get people to change "ldl-0|xxx" than "ldl|xxx", I'm pretty convinced at this point that the template should be renamed with -0. What do you think? --BB12 (talk) 21:55, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
There's no way we can "trust" a native user "approving" words. I would argue that that's not even the way Wiktionary works. It either has citations, or it doesn't; we're just relaxing the strictness on citations. Asking speakers to add citations and maybe also pointing them to an explanatory page (WT:Quotations, perhaps?) is great. Warning users about reliability is great. I just think that setting up an approval system is a major mistake. Also, setting the Tea Room up for a lot of spam is a bad idea. I'm not going to rewrite it, though, unless you want me to. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:24, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
You're right. I'll think about this a little more before making changes. --BB12 (talk) 22:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
An unrelated problem with the vote: you need to put Scots in with Basque. It is not a nationally official language, but it has literature and is citeable. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh yeah, and didn't Anatoli say that Amharic has very limited internet penetration? Man, listing languages is hard. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:59, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Yesterday, I considered throwing a wrench in the whole thing by listing only the languages that need three citations. I went to Google Books, but that info wasn't available, so I decided to leave it until a different day. --BB12 (talk) 23:04, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
I think it's too late for that now. It probably would be similarly hard, anyway, and somewhat less likely to garner support. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I couldn't come up with a reasonable way to do it, but it should be much easier. --BB12 (talk) 23:16, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

Off topic: familiar with 児玉 透? (I try not to be creepy, but it's hard sometimes XD) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, no idea. Wikipedia doesn't have an entry on him. --BB12 (talk) 00:01, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Ah well. Thanks anyway. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:06, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Cleaning up after the old voteEdit

My life has quieted down, but in a little more than 2 weeks, I leave for Asia, where I'll be travelling for a month. I'd like to clean up by adding in all the languages we forgot in the old vote, because there are hundreds of them by my reckoning.

I think I ignored too many Bantu languages, and I'm sure I made some mistakes, but this seems to cover enough of the remaining ground. What do you think? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:43, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I haven't been active on Wiktionary for the past month. I think the drawn-out vote process took my enthusiasm away. Hopefully it will come back :) That's correct about Maltese. Sign languages are covered by the sign language provision. My inclination is to leave unclassified languages and isolates alone as they can be added as necessary. For the rest, I will organize them and put them in the Beer Parlour to seek consensus once the vote is over. BTW, the vote got one opposition vote today yesterday from Dan Polansky. I hope it's not because there are issues he brought up that I didn't address. The vote still has overwhelming support with a couple of days to go.
I appreciate this list. Also, before you go, I want to finish hammering out the wording of the ldl template with you and perhaps discuss an expansion to extinct languages as was discussed in the vote discussion. --BB12 (talk) 23:54, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
I hope you reactivate around here. If you feel ready to present to the BP, that can be done now under the (rather obvious) assumption that it will pass. Don't worry, I was waiting for DP to notice it and vote against; that's just how he is. Sometimes I'm in the minority with him, and sometimes not.
I'd like to get this batch through rather quickly, as it shouldn't be a very complicated vote (yes, I'm assuming it won't be as easy as consensus). As for extinct languages, I forgot what the issue was that we didn't solve. Would you mind pointing me to the discussion? Oh, and User:Metaknowledge/ldl is still open to your edits, even after I keep changing it. I'm fine with it as is, but I'm sure it can be improved (and yellow might be too bright). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:01, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
LOL. That's what I figured the vote thing was. It's important to have dissent for all issues. The extinct issue is adding them, including Ancient Greek, to the LDLs. See, for example, Wiktionary_talk:Votes/2012-04/Languages_with_limited_documentation#Extinct_languages_and_mention. I'll take a look at the ldl template, thanks. --BB12 (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh yes, extinct mentions. For some reason, I thought the old vote included those (it's a pity it didn't). That will be an unfortunate mess, and I can't say I have high hopes for it. I will of course support that, but if you don't mind, keep it separate from the language batch so it doesn't affect that vote's success. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, the languages you mentioned will be first, then the extinct languages. Perhaps the dread of that is what's been keeping me away :) Anyway, I need to come up with language for both. --BB12 (talk) 06:40, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Back to the scratching board, I suppose! I don't know exactly how much help you want, but of course I'm willing. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:08, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the offer of help. I just need to roll up my sleeves and get into the process. I would like to put all of your languages into one BP proposal. In addition to that list, I also need to rewrite the current list so that people can see what it would look like if the languages are accepted. The vote ends in about 47 hours, so I should get cracking on that.
The extinct language issue is less straight-forward; I suppose, though, that it's simply a matter of creating a proposal that alters the language of the current vote to include extinct language mentions. Perhaps if I take a look at the ldl template and we can agree on the wording, then that can be used as a tool to alleviate some people's concerns. --BB12 (talk) 01:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Ah, this time your wording far exceeds mine. I changed the background color to another pleasing shade - I am ignorant about the effects of color blindness, so it may also pose a problem. If you want to change the color, it's just based on logically chosen hexadecimal values. If you don't like math, you can use this handy chart. By the way, you might want to investigate my choice of languages - I'm not a professional linguist, and you don't have to take my word for it on each suggestion. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
I shortened the ldl template by a few words. It's now about two and-a-half lines with a fairly narrow browser, which feels like the maximum to me. Beyond that, notices become boring noise. If that's acceptable, we can release it into the wild. The color is much better for me. I don't know anything about color blindness, either, just that the green works :) For the languages, Yiddish is automatically included because it's in the UNESCO Atlas. Do you feel it should be excluded strongly enough to excluded it by name? I'll check the other individual languages for endangered status, but I think there is little danger in being over-inclusive. The spirit of the LDL proposal is to exclude only about 2% of the world's languages, which means everything else is fair to include. --BB12 (talk) 02:47, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I say release it! As for Yiddish, we might as well let it in, although my honest belief is that it's a citeable language. For its speakership, it has a massive amount of literature, including many books, religious material, a lot of poetry, and some stuff from the Yiddish resurgence. By the way, I think that all the Mande languages should go in, so that simplifies matters a bit. I spoke to a Guinean recently who told me that Mandinka is essentially endangered in terms of everyday use in Conakry and is being abandoned by the youth, and Mandinka is one of the strongest of the Mande tongues. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Releasing it sounds fine, then :) I may start a discussion to exclude Yiddish, then. That seems reasonable. Even if a language in Africa is strong, it is not likely citable from the Internet, one of the criteria we developed in the discussion of the vote, so that sounds fine. --BB12 (talk) 03:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
As an example, see how a good quantity of results come up when one does a bgc search on (deprecated template usage) שפראך: google books:"שפראך". Everything you see there is in Yiddish. That beats most world languages in terms of internet penetration by a long shot. If I made a comparable search in Samoan (as I did for (deprecated template usage) gagana), for example, I'd see unrelated material and stuff in other languages on the very first page. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Edit: on Wiktionary our entry is actually under (deprecated template usage) שפּראַך because we're stupid enough to put vowels and diacritics in titles even when the language in question doesn't use them in printed works. But that's a jeremiad for another day. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:37, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Going through the languages.... I went ahead and added the w:Bantu languages with the sole exclusions of Swahili, Xhosa and Zulu. Bantu includes Kitara, Northern Ndebele and Venda, so I struck those from the list. I broadened the languages of India out, striking Mizo because it's now included. Kokborok is now covered by the languages of Bangladesh. Lepcha is also covered in that section. I think I want to remove Maltese because it's an official language of the EU.
The revisions are in boldface at User:BenjaminBarrett12/scratch2. I still need to continue looking at Africa and Central and South Asia. Also, I need to make a structural change, adding an explicit exclusion section because someone can claim English since it's a language of India/Pakistan. That will clean the list up quite a bit and will make it possible to basically add the multitudes of languages of Africa in. I knew the exclusion list had to be added, but everything was taking so much time that I let it go.
PS. I see the example of Dutch includes European languages, but that still makes it messy. --BB12 (talk) 06:59, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
PPS: Yiddish cannot be excluded by means of the language list. It has to be excluded on the CFI page because it's an endangered language, and endangered languages are necessarily included. I think I'll propose consensus for the structural change, followed by the changes we're talking about here (after much more revision) and then propose that Yiddish be stricken. --BB12 (talk) 08:03, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Bold, but I think it's good. So: Firstly, I thought of the English-as-an-official-language-in-India problem as I was reading it (I read it before I saw this), and I thought the Dutch-in-Suriname footnote covered that. How does it not do so?
As for Bantu languages, I guess this is the best way forward, but I think we're giving a bit much leeway to certain lects. In fact, Shona, Luganda, and Kikuyu are all well over 5m in speakership, and I suspect they don't need this (I seem to remember that Shona even has a native-run WP, but I'm not too sure on the details).
I keep forgetting how much easier it is to say "everybody in!" and then weed out the ones I actually know something about! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:20, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, the Dutch-in-Suriname note covers it, but the thing is that the list is inclusive, so that if a language qualifies on any line, it qualifies period. So the Dutch-in-Suriname note is counter to a logical flow. But even more importantly, what I should have said (LOL) is that it's non-European languages like Hindi and Punjabi that are surely spoken in Pakistan and India, respectively, that will turn this thing into a nightmare. You can even make the case that since Hindi is spoken in the US and the UK as a native tongue by people born there (children of immigrants), they qualify despite being excluded. And this is a problem that will come up again and again if not addressed with an exclusion list.
Are Shona, Luganda, and Kikuyu well represented on the Internet? That should be the core issue, as discussed during the LDL vote. If they are, no problem in adding them to the excluded languages.
BTW, please post the ldl template if you want. You created it, so take credit for it! --BB12 (talk) 18:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Eh, I'm not too worried. People won't actively misinterpret it, I think. Oh yeah, and did you notice the second oppose vote cast? I think I'll have to strike both of Istafe's votes to be fair. Let's see: Shona's doing well on the nets and Luganda and Kikuyu aren't, but Shona doesn't have a whole lot of durably archived stuff that can be accessed online. So maybe not. As for the template, I'll post it and let people edit it at will, I suppose. (I'm giving you half-credit, though.) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
That's why I keep going back and forth, because people won't willingly misinterpret it. But there will be borderline cases, so it just seems best to clean it up now. --BB12 (talk) 18:42, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh bloody, you appear to have done some crazy dysfunctional thing on the vote page. You put {{ldl}}, which has an illegal namespace and makes no sense to me. Not to mention that there is a template called {{ldl}}, and it displays the string Template:ldl. I'm guessing we'll end up calling the template {{LDL}} instead, but after it passes and the template is community approved, we need to raise a new discussion about modifying CFI to that effect. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:21, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Very sorry about that. I thought I had checked that out, but I guess not. The CFI change will be easy to implement. I'll propose that once the vote is complete. --BB12 (talk) 20:16, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
In any case, the BP discussion is going well. Happy transit of Venus day! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:31, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

  Done I closed the vote and modified CFI, as well as made the subpage! So now for the rest... --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:32, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It looks amazing! That was a lot of work. I had trouble figuring out where the pieces went, even! I appreciate the collaborative work and thinking on all of this :) --BB12 (talk) 05:50, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Can you post the next vote yet? If so, give it a premature tag and, if you want, even start another (yet another) section in the BP, so we can get feedback. I'd like to put the next installment to a vote in less than a week. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Do you mean for the revision of the languages page with the exclusion section? I'll try to do that in the next two days. I'm sick as a dog today and I think it will take two days to get the wording reasonable. --BB12 (talk) 06:01, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Get better, and I'll be watching your scratch pages! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the kind words. Feeling somewhat better today... Anyway, I think this has to be done in two steps: first reconstructing the languages page into an A list (inclusions) and a B list (exclusions), and then adding other languages. I know you're going on vacation in a few days, but I think this will be the best way forward. --BB12 (talk) 18:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The thing is, I want to help, but when I'm traveling, I can't do much more than vote in support. Maybe internet cafes have expanded a lot since the last time I went to the third world, but I doubt it. Moreover, I'll be pretty busy every day. In any case, if you haven't yet seen them, take a look at Template talk:LDL and {{LDL-sense}}. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:44, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I might be over-thinking it, but one step at a time seems easiest. But I'm putting together both revisions simultaneously and will have them up in a few more minutes at User:BenjaminBarrett12/scratch2.
I guess we can move conversation over to scratch2's talkpage. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:51, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

I used my admin powers to delete more thoroughly than you could. Sorry for being so unthinking. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:22, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

No worries. I think you can find that, too, if you know where to look. --BB12 (talk) 15:39, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

eight hundredEdit

Some think that eight hundred is more than it's more than just a translation target. I would love to find the relevant deletion debates. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:25, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Talk:three hundred. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:27, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad you were able to find that! I searched but couldn't come up with it. --BB12 (talk) 19:51, 17 June 2012 (UTC)


Hi! I've just left a longish answer to your question on the talk page of tīkls. Again thanks for your interest! (Feel free to have a look at my translations/definitions of other Latvian words if it strikes your fancy. It's a beautiful language.) --Pereru (talk) 00:53, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

tīkls bisEdit

I've made some changes, mostly following your advice, to tīkls; if you have more comments, let me know. (If you like commenting on definitions and examples, I have worked on a few more pages that could perhaps use some comments -- say, saite, or vads, or galva. There are others I've been working on, though usually they're not as long or definition-rich.) --Pereru (talk) 22:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've made some comments and changes to those words :) --BB12 (talk) 06:12, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the help! If you'll let me again pick on your native knowledge of the queen's language, I was wondering how possible it still is in English to refer to a female dog as a 'bitch'. Latvian kuce simply means 'female dog', without any insulting meaning. But can one use English translations like 'we have a smart bitch' or 'a bitch with her puppies' or 'pregnant bitch' to refer to actual canines without causing confusion or hilarity? --Pereru (talk) 15:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC) (I note that, in the Wikimedia Commons, 'bitch' redirects to 'prostitution'; I had to search for 'female dog' to find pictures.) --Pereru (talk) 15:44, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
That's a really difficult one. A couple of years ago, I was talking to a professional dog breeder, and she used the word "bitch." I was a little surprised, but realized that for a dog breeder, that's a normal term. All English speakers understand it has both meanings, but we usually say, "My dog's a she" or "My dog's a he." I cannot imagine a regular person using the word "bitch." It would just be offensive. In a dictionary, readers will be more likely to accept "bitch" because it is a concise definition. Still, I changed "bitch" to "dog" in the third example, which I think helps this particular situation.
BTW, I looked at perra, which is the feminine form of perro, Spanish for dog. They have a template: {{es-noun|f|m=perro}} that automatically gives the other forms of the noun. You should have those for Latvian. Also, I looked for an "about" page for Latvian, but did not find one. Each language should have an about page. See, for example, WT:About Spanish, WT:About English. Those pages provide template and other information.
@Pereru: I've made a very short page at Wiktionary:About Latvian; you can expand it like the other pages BB links to (WT:AES, etc). :) You could write about what Latvian templates are used (on Wiktionary), or verb cases, or whatever. - -sche (discuss) 18:40, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip about "About" pages, BB and -sche. You can tell how new I am here by the fact that I didn't know these pages existed... I don't have everything figured out yet (I haven't been entering verbs, for instance, because I haven't figured out the details of how to present these well yet; the same for adjectives, though with adjectives I'm much closer to solving all the problems), but at least for noun entries I think I can expand the page -sche created. As for 'bitch', I'll leave the word as such (except for the example BB changed -- I think you're right, this is better). Thanks for the help. --Pereru (talk) 08:54, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
There's a lot to find! I knew about the "about" pages but just figured out how to find them (it's WT:About Language). Because Latvian has multiple declensions for nouns, it will need either one complex template or else multiple templates. -sche or someone at the Grease Pit can help you if you know all of the forms :) --BB12 (talk) 09:51, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, I tried to do a thorough job; you can see the results at Wiktionary:About Latvian now. I'm still working on nouns; as soon as get to verbs, I'll see what needs to be changed in the available templates. But for now, that should serve as a guide to what I'm trying to do (and hopefully for others to go on doing who want to cooperate!...)
With respect to (deprecated template usage) perro and (deprecated template usage) perra: I'm already trying to do this for regularly formed feminines and masculines forms (see e.g. latvietis), but in the case of animal names I am stumped by the fact that one often has words that are clearly totally unrelated to each other (e.g., Latvian gailis (rooster) and vista (chicken, hen), or kaza (goat, fem. goat) and āzis (male goat)), or there is more than one masculine/feminine counterpart (govs (cow) vs. bullis (bull), vērsis (ox)). Even when the feminine forms are formed with suffixes, these are not the usual feminine suffixes (-ene instead of -e; e.g., vilcene (she-wolf) from vilks (wolf), or lauvene (lioness) from lauva (lion)). Besides, these seem to belong in a group together with the male animal and the baby animal names, rather than simply being in binary opposition to the masculine term. Because of that, I preferred to put female/baby animal names together in a 'Derived words' section rather than in the inflection line, next to the headword. --Pereru (talk) 13:46, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh, my goodness! That's amazing. And you already have the templates, too. Very impressive work :) --BB12 (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Schrödinger's catEdit

Does this help? (Your comment made no sense to me. The only way I could see it as a response to mine is if you misunderstood what mine was responding to. If you did understand what mine was responding to, then I think I need you to clarify yours some more.) —RuakhTALK 21:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Peace Corps manualsEdit

I’m interested! I have a few questions:

  • What kind of information is contained in those manuals?
  • The Cape Verde Portuguese manual... is it really Portuguese or is it Kabuverdianu?
  • Did they specify how they want us to provide attribution?

Ungoliant (Falai) 07:52, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, great!
  • I have looked only at one of the manuals. It was a collection of vocabulary and sentences. I'm working with someone who knows the language because the vocabulary is often non-lemma forms.
  • I expect that the manual really is as indicated: These are for people going into the field who need to communicate with ordinary people.
  • No. My thought is to use a template like {{kea-pcm}} that provides all the information, and use the {{LDL}} template as well.
My contact is on vacation for a few more days, but let me know if you want to look at the manual and I'll contact her. --BB12 (talk) 08:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
I’m interested in the two Portuguese manuals. If you can talk to her after she returns from vacation that would be nice. Thanks. — Ungoliant (Falai) 18:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

guinea pigEdit

User:TheAckademie has started to add Wolof terms and seems to be quite knowledgeable, either a native speaker or a person with a great reference book. Do you want to try out the LDL project ideas with them, explain citations, etc.? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:04, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Nice catch! Is there any objection to me making my own welcome message and offering to mentor along with that? --BB12 (talk) 02:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
I'd love to see it! Make it a template, so we can reuse it, and maybe Ungoliant will want to see as well. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:47, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Also note: User:Deilbh, working in Scottish Gaelic. He doesn't need mentoring by now, and Angr (our best person for Gaelic languages) has noticed, but I thought I might as well tell you. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:00, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! --BB12 (talk) 03:08, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Britannic124 is adding Ainu, but they seem to be a bit of a problematic user, given the residue of an old block, etc on their talkpage. Also not a recent addition to Wiktionary, but still notable. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:49, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I found that user. Can you tell me how you find these entries and new users? Maybe that way I can save you some trouble later on :) --BB12 (talk) 23:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, no special method :) I use special JS which all admins are granted access to, for the purpose of patrolling the Recent changes. Most admins rarely patrol, and a lot of the work falls to SemperBlotto, so I try to patrol new users and IPs when I get a chance, just to help out. If you want to do that, I think I can nominate you to be a patroller (it's a lightweight vote, not a WT:V deal). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. If you are patrolling anyway and can alert me to things like that, I would rather do it that way. --BB12 (talk) 02:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
That was rather unclear, so I'll take it as a no. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about that. I was trying to say, "If you don't mind taking the trouble to alert me, I would rather do that than become a patroller." --BB12 (talk) 02:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
That's OK. I parsed it correctly, then. I'll just put the list here, I guess, as I find 'em. You might also be interested in User:Embryomystic, who isn't very noticeable but certainly does a lot. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. My thought is to alert Embryomystic to the new LDL vote if it passes and see if we can get them to use the LDL template and maybe help with the LDL project pages. --BB12 (talk) 02:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Embryomystic, unfortunately, has a habit of adding uncited terms that would be correct - if only scientific papers were regularly written in Irish or Maltese. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Frankjh needs mentoring - I think he just started, and he's adding tons of Pipil translations, but Wiktionary barely has any Pipil entries. This might be the best catch so far. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I added a welcome to Frankjh's page. There's only one Pipil entry. I'm still thinking about Embryomystic. --BB12 (talk) 17:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Keep watching. He looks good and responsive. If you want, I can take him over. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
They really took the initiative in creating ppl Babbel language. Next is templates. I think I might have an all-nighter tonight for the second time this week, so I'm trying to stay away today except as a relief valve. --BB12 (talk) 00:58, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Got it. Just ask if you need support around here. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Pipil and Ainu in one day, very exciting! (I have to find out what's going on with my Zambia contact....) --BB12 (talk) 01:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and let me know what you think about the portals. I want to work up a list of features the portals would include to demonstrate why they are needed. --BB12 (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

See my talkpage. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

New: User:Macushi. I think the language they're working in should be self-explanatory. (Once I'm on the look-out, these LDL editors seem to be flying in at quite a pace!) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Ben Herzog (talkcontribs) - Breton. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

BTW, I personally find the template welcome messages annoying. When I got that template I was glad to see more friendliness here than in the past, but the text itself was mostly just a bunch of blah-blah-blah information to me. I don't know if others feel that way or not, but when I looked at the message you put on Macushi's page, I got that feeling, too, so I've decided to write individualized welcome messages without all that. What do you think? --BB12 (talk) 11:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

That's really awesome. I told you that you're better at welcoming them! Should I skip the {{welcome}}, then? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
If that seems acceptable, yes. The welcome message kind of takes the welcome out because once you get passed the first sentence, you know you've just been handed a Mickey D's burger. I tried to say hi last night, but I was metallurgied out. --BB12 (talk) 17:39, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
So it really became an all-nighter. Ouch.
Just do me a favor and bring up BabelBoxes somehow when you personally welcome them. You've got a whole list waiting for you now :) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
I've been up past dawn before, but last night, I was in bed before pre-dawn, so it wasn't that bad. The Babel box is a good idea. I'll think about making that the focus. It's a little difficult for true newbies, and helps pave the way to understanding more complicated Wiki markup. --BB12 (talk) 17:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC) (talk) - some dialect of Berber. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:45, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

嬉しい、嬉しい!ありがとうございます。I'll be back in about an hour or so to catch up. --BB12 (talk) 21:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Don't forget that I am Japanese-illiterate. All I can recognize is the polite termination at the end. Luckily, there's always Google Translate. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Still haven't taken off, but I should be leaving in just a minute. In the meantime, here are the links for your Japanese literacy pleasure. --BB12 (talk) 22:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Si hoc iterum agis, latine respondebo. Sic monitus es. (My, I seem to be getting rusty!) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
お願いします! --BB12 (talk) 22:20, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
You have the worse end of the stick. Google Translate gets Latin wrong more often than it gets it right, on a sentence-by-sentence basis. Meanwhile, Wiktionary is less helpful because you have the understand the grammar first. So fortuna bona tibi.--Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Notto atto oouru (not at all). I was able to get the Latin perfectly using the Wiktionary links you kindly put in! --BB12 (talk) 00:06, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, finally got the Macushi welcome done (I erased the welcome message altogether). I'll try to do one more tonight, a little later. --BB12 (talk) 03:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I think getting the IPs to register is really important. Compare the content of {{welcomeip}}, which you may not be aware of. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:52, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
I had glanced over that before. I think the most important thing is encouragement, with a hint to register, so I'll send the same sort of message out for that one, too. --BB12 (talk) 05:54, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Okay, done to just one: User:Embryomystic. --BB12 (talk) 00:14, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Are you aware of Mulder1982 (talkcontribs)? More of an old-timer, but he does some interesting languages, especially Faroese. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:35, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

The good news: Spl908455 (talkcontribs) is joining the Embryomystical cabal and is adding terms in Vilamovian, a languages spoken in just one village. The bad news: (s)he basically knows almost no English. Maybe you should get a Pole to translate? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

GlaikitGowk (talkcontribs) - Scots. Fresh off the press, this one. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Sabretooth (talkcontribs) - Marathi. Are you able to keep up? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:29, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll know in a day or two. --BB12 (talk) 05:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC) (talk) - Galician. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC) (talk) - Asturian. I think we need a better place for this list.

Thank you. How about User:BenjaminBarrett12/list?

Looks good. Are you sure you got all the rest (Mulder1982, Spl908455)? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
No, I didn't get everything. I just wanted to clip the last few. I need to take a nap and then get up again and fix it. --BB12 (talk) 16:59, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Not really list material (I greeted them myself), but there's an IP adding obscure Tok Pisin etymologies! I'm overjoyed! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:30, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Unsuitability of Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share AlikeEdit

Just that you know: Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License is not compatible with CC-BY-SA used by Wiktionary. No bilingual dictionary released under Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License can be directly copied to Wiktionary.

I am responding to User_talk:Metaknowledge#Online_dictionaries. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:47, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

As a consequence, the following dictionaries cannot be copied to Wiktionary:

--Dan Polansky (talk) 10:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I saw your message and responded to it. But thank you for the extra follow-up. --BB12 (talk) 17:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

@Dan: I'm honored that it appears you have taken the time to read the userpage of your very favorite villain :) --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:43, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Mentoring programEdit

I decided to create a draft for the program, before it becomes yet another forgotten idea. Take a look User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/Mentoring program and feel free to edit and rewrite. Thanks! — Ungoliant (Falai) 00:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Great! I'm hammered with work right now, but MK has told me about a relatively new user who is adding Wolof terms, so I'm intending to do a trial mentorage as soon as I can draft a welcome message. The opting out part is a little logically awkward in telling the mentee to tell the mentor they want out if they want a new mentor. Also, I think there should be verbiage saying that the mentors should be constructive and helpful people. I hadn't thought of the language part; I really like that! I'll sign up, too. --BB12 (talk) 00:39, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Re languages mentor is comfortable with: What about LDL's? There's nobody here who will mark that they're willing to mentor a Wolof speaker, but what if the speaker needs a mentor? Also, I would be willing to mentor for a few languages, but I always notice myself (and it's happened twice), because I have most terms in those languages on my watchlist. Should I sign up and list them anyway? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:38, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I think we finally have a problemEdit

Specifically, the sort of situation I've been dreading has cropped up. (deprecated template usage) liptimupim is almost definitely a misspelling of (deprecated template usage) liptimapim (which might not be a bluelink; I haven't added it yet). The issue is that one dictionary, Hunter's, lists this term, hence the error. Should I disallow Hunter's as a single source, even though it's otherwise a good dictionary (AFAICT)? Tok Pisin does have enough sources that being one dictionary down won't kill it. Most LDLs, though, couldn't even handle that much. What are your thoughts? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

We can exclude errors without completely rejecting the source they came from. This is especially true of misspellings, since we already don't allow uncommon misspellings even if they've got a whole bunch of cites. But — how did [[liptimupim]] become a bluelink? I hope you're not taking entries indiscriminately from a copyrighted dictionary . . . —RuakhTALK 00:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
It does make me mistrust Hunter's, though. As for copyright, I have no good answer. The truth is that I generally trust dictionaries, and although I attempt to write my own definitions as much as possible, there's not much else I can do here (put (deprecated template usage) raise, perhaps, although that has different connotations, and (deprecated template usage) lift is by far the most accurate). When I read a Tok Pisin text and come across a word I'm unfamiliar with, I check a dictionary or two and then add it. All I can say is that I'll move it and delete the old one, and this is just another piece in the puzzle of unending copyright fear at WMF, in part for good reasons and in part due to overreaction, even though I have never seen it pay off. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
It looks like the word is genuine. See [2] and [3]. Also, Webster's has it. FWIW, it's also provided as a translation under lift (first meaning).
As for copyright, I believe you are perfectly fine doing what you are doing, using context to guide you. Also, a little fear is a good thing because it prevents sloppy copying. But basically, nobody can translate something like "Italia = Italy" because there's really only one way to write it. Even if you add the article ("l'Italia") and grammatical information, you're just citing facts, which cannot be copyrighted. --BB12 (talk) 01:11, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I added the translation; I have since fixed it. Tok-Pisin.com is not a trustworthy source and almost certainly contains copyright infringement. I don't know much about the Barhorst list; User:BarkingFish (admin at tpi.wiki, tpi-2) likes it, although I find that it is incomplete, even for the Mosbi dialect which it claims to cover. I still don't feel comfortable with (deprecated template usage) liptimupim, because it breaks the usual laws of Pacific Creole phonology shifts. There are only 2 or so active editors in all of WMF that use Tok Pisin on a daily or near-daily basis, but if we need to, I can ask them. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
It looks like the Webster's site is not all that trustworthy, either: the about page has no content. I think you should ask someone. --BB12 (talk) 01:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow. It's a lot worse than I thought. BarkingFish has an unnamed contact, and that seems to be the best we have. I could list all the inactive users and inflated self-opinions I saw, but I'll leave you to imagine it. I'll try to get this contact's email, especially because I have a few other questions in the works. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:25, 24 July 2012 (UTC)


I figured that I ought to start one of these votes off myself. I used your last vote as a guideline to writing it, so it looks pretty similar. The redlinks are because it assumes that the current vote will pass (a safe assumption, with a few days to go and no opposition). Please look very critically at it - fix and rewrite things that stand out to you, and comment on more important or controversial things at User talk:Metaknowledge/extinct. Thanks --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Passes! I closed the vote. You feel like proposing the extinct vote in the BP? I was going to, but I just made a proposition in the BP about the FWOTD, so I reckon I oughtn't to do it twice in a row. Thanks --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:31, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Great, thank you! The well documented languages page isn't up yet, so I assume you're still working on that. How about waiting for a day or two and then bringing the topic up in the BP? I really think at least 24 hours should pass before advancing a new proposal. --BB12 (talk) 03:42, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I used the wrong capitalization. Thanks for telling me! It doesn't bother me how long exactly - but as I noted above, I think you should do it. Minor note: with multipart changes, it might not be a bad idea to create a mock CFI ahead of time with the changes, so it's pretty straightforward to do. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:02, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
It looks good. And now I recall another reason to delay: There were two or three languages whose status people wanted to change. I think those should be introduced into the BP and then this topic introduced. (Basically, to allow a bit of breathing room.) I'll contact those people. Very kind words with Astral, BTW. --BB12 (talk) 04:21, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I meant to suggest that myself. Haitian Creole being on the list seems ridiculous, but the others are worth a shot.
Now you're blossoming into quite a stalker! Thank you. I am not the right person to do it, but someone had to. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:24, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
<Lowering my light saber to you, Great Stalker> --BB12 (talk) 04:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
*buzzing lightsaber sound* I hereby dub thee... Sir Stalkalot! *taps your shoulders ceremonially* Dammit, I forgot this thing was still active! Sorry about chopping your arms off, old chap. *heavy breathing through Darth Vader helmet* I am the good guy, right? Right? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:32, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: I created User:Metaknowledge/Rollback edit summary, and intend to make it a vote in the near future. Comments and edits welcome. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:04, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

NIce. BTW, nobody is moving on the languages in the language list, so I'll probably go ahead in the next day or two with the extinct vote. --BB12 (talk) 01:05, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, any extinct action? I reckon your hell (or at least Hell No. 1) ought to be over by now. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:41, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
As it turns out, you were right: hell never ends. I have through the end of the month, now. But at least I don't have to make any deliveries over the weekend, so tomorrow I will breathe and then post that proposal. --BB12 (talk) 02:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
Whoopee. I was right about the only thing I wanted to be wrong about. Good luck (and skill!). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:15, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


Thank you for your encouraging words.

These last days, on English Wiktionary, I worked rather on Walloon translations of English words. Now ! I worked now on "polene" and created "crole" as asked in a "request" page.

I think of the asked page ("about Walloon"). The only lacking thing is time !

With kind regards

--Lucyin (talk) 02:36, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Those seem like odd requests, but very nice! (Now I can say "poultry droppings" in Walloon.) --BB12 (talk) 02:39, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

New templateEdit

I just created {{new entry}}, which helps LDL newbies add entries. It's meant to lighten the load on them as far as immediately getting the hang of formatting goes. I haven't tested it yet; all I know is how it's supposed to work (documented in full detail there) and that it must be substed. What do you think? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:30, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

凄い! (Def. 4 is the obvious choice in this case.) --BB12 (talk) 06:19, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Examples are needed, though. Can you provide some examples of the template in action with an easy guide? --BB12 (talk) 06:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Actually, more like Def. 2 right now. I was too tired last night, but this morning I ran the bugtests and found a couple weird quirks that I fixed, but also a bug in the definition line that I don't understand. Take a look at this and you'll see what I mean. Anyway, I've asked Ungoliant for help. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:06, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
It occurred to me that this could be put onto the LDL page once it's fixed :) --BB12 (talk) 18:12, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Ungoliant made an edit, and then reverted himself. Strangely enough, that made no text changes to the template, but now it works. MediaWiki can be really strange... Anyway, play around with it if you get the chance, and if you want, you can make the doc page more noob-friendly (I'm not so good at that). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:15, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Re: Hello againEdit

Hello there. Yes, I'm aware of the "About Gaulish" page, in fact, it was my starting point when I began editing. I'm going to observe the discussion on the proposal you've made.

About my studies, Norwegian Philology is one thing, and the Antic Studies is the other. I'm not sure whether such thing exists outside Poland. The curriculum concentrates around the historical period of Antiquity and provides cultural, linguistical and historical awareness of this period. During the studies it is possible to choose your domain of specialisation, mine being Gaul before and after Roman conquest. Thence my special interest on Gaulish :) Bli med (talk) 19:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Glad you saw that. The vote starts tomorrow, so I hope you'll consider voting :)
I have to admit, I did not know that "antic" is a word (only antics); thank you! I have never heard of such a curriculum, but it certainly makes sense.
One other thing: There's no Babel Box for Gaulish. Perhaps one can be made using English? --BB12 (talk) 09:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


I have begun an about page for Ancient Egyptian, which can be found here: Wiktionary:About Egyptian. I invite/encourage/need comments and criticism. Furius (talk) 02:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

That is incredible! I look forward to reading it and learning about Egyptian :) --BB12 (talk) 02:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


I have now proposed a vote. SpinningSpark 15:23, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

anglar regionEdit

New to attestation? Never mind, let's relax CFI to allow more non-existent content. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I have actually already requested the deletion of anglar region, but regardless, it's unfortunate that you felt the need to make this snipe. I hope you will dedicate your energies toward building Wiktionary in a positive direction. --BB12 (talk) 21:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
My need to make this animated promotional logo during a television show was too strong. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. --BB12 (talk) 21:41, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


English angulus seems equally spurious. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Please see [4] for a host of citations. With anglar region, I had been mislead by some Japanese images I was looking at, but I checked angulus before adding it :) --BB12 (talk) 21:43, 27 August 2012 (UTC)


thank you so much for your recommendation and your positive response,,, :D Dejongstebroer (talk) 17:17, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


User_talk:Metallurgist bump bump again

Joseon814 (talkcontribs)Edit

He's adding more Goguryeo entries; so, we need to make a decision. If the conclusion is that all of his contributions need to be rolled back, we should talk to him sooner rather than later, since in the meantime we're just letting him waste his effort. —RuakhTALK 18:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the follow-up. On October 22, I said by e-mail that I would wait three days. If nothing happens by tomorrow, I am in favor of pretty much any action. My inclination is to take it to the BP to open the issue for discussion; maybe someone else will have a better solution. It would be a shame to waste their efforts as you say, and to lose the date. --BB12 (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Sorry. Things have been hectic and I left my brain in the dining room. I'll open up a discussion in the BP. --BB12 (talk) 20:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


Yep, you might well be able to improve the definition. (Thus far in my life, I've almost never used any kind of mobile phone.) "Mobile computing platform" was an entire red link, though: if that is restored, it should probably be as three words. I automatically distrust big red phrases and tend to remove them if unnecessary! Equinox 21:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Now that's an impressive boast! I'll look more into this mobile phone issue. --BB12 (talk) 21:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Funny this should come up, because my work just gave me a new phone this week. (I have barely touched the old one, since I have landline, e-mail and Skype, but the phone upgrades seem to be company policy.) It's one of those new swipey ones with no buttons, and the user interface is actually something I might be able to put up with, so I do plan to read the manual and give it a try. Heh. My strong dislike is mainly because of the "bad manners" (tinny music, loud ringtones, people absorbed in the phone on public transport, in restaurants, funerals, etc. — I think it's a bit sad). Phones/tablets may well be replacing desktop computers but they seem to have a lot of issues like restricted "app stores" where you can't install what you want (without voiding the warranty) and blah blah I'll shut up about that now. Equinox 21:45, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
LOL. The sounds should be adjustable on your model; models in the past weren't very good. The rest is up to the user and developers. --BB12 (talk) 05:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


Hello, BB12, and thanks for reaching out to me via my talk page. I've moved the discussion here, to keep Wiktionary-related discussion on Wiktionary. (I'll watch this talk page for a few days, so you can reply to me here.)

Unfortunately, I'm not very knowledgeable about Ainu. I don't speak it and haven't studied it formally. I approach it through English or Japanese sources, especially John Batchelor's early twentieth century dictionary. I'm happy to help where I can, but probably won't have very much to add. Cnilep (talk) 01:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick response, Cnilep. I'm not familiar with Ainu much, either. I have taught myself a small amount using WAYK and am working on the STV Radio Course vocabulary [5]. Takashi Tomita has just sent me his Ain-Jpn glossary (http://homepage3.nifty.com/tommy1949/aynudictionary.htm) in Excel and given me permission to use it here (or anywhere). I'm hoping to format it for upload to the Japanese Wiktionary and translate it to English for the English Wiktionary. There are 15K entries, so it's a lot of work and I thought I would form a project. Would you be interested? --BB12 (talk) 01:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I'll support the project in principle, but I'm afraid I won't have much to add, nor much time to add it. Cnilep (talk) 00:32, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, thank you for the courteous response :) BB12 (talk) 00:50, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Keeping RfV balancedEdit

Greetings! Since you have recently added new discussions to Wiktionary:Requests for verification, please help to keep the page from becoming overgrown by helping to advance, close, or archive some old discussions. Cheers! bd2412 T 11:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Ainu kotEdit

Hi, could you check コㇳ? Following what was said on en.wiki, I used a small to-kana for a syllable closing -t, however, then I saw User:Eirikr (their page says they might be busy atm) using a small tsu-kana. (I've had some bad experiences with the reliability of wiki in the past, so I'm suspicious.)

By the way, would be great if at some point Wiktionary:About Ainu touched on some basics, e.g., how to convert Batchelor's spelling to modern, how are word boundaries indicated, etc. (I wanted to add some synonym compound words to kot but Batchelor had written them romanized, joined through a hyphen.) Neitrāls vārds (talk) 08:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

According to W:Ainu_language#Special_katakana_for_the_Ainu_language, the ㇳ is correct. I can try to research it further if necessary. Good idea about improving the "About" page. It will be a few months, at least, until I can think about Ainu, unfortunately, but if there is something specific, please ask and I'll try to find out. --BB12 (talk) 08:35, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Turns out it did have some references, the unicode.org pdf doesn't load for me but this has to as the only small t-kana (I find it weird though that the entire h-row and r-row has small versions, would expect that they'd only need a couple of them.) Based on this, I guess, コㇳ can be left but if there's a more recent/authoritative standard that's different, don't hesitate to move/delete it. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 09:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
  • As another data point, the Talking Dictionary of Ainu uses the kana spelling コッ for this same word. I also see that モトッ (motot, backbone) is spelled with small for the final "t". Interstitial "t" stops appear to also be spelled using small , such as in the word ホッネ (hotne, twenty, a score).
Note too that W:Ainu_language#Special_katakana_for_the_Ainu_language only lists those special katakana forms required for spelling Ainu that are not already included in the regular code ranges for Japanese katakana -- i.e., the lack of small on that list is not an indication that small should not be used to spell final "t" in Ainu.
Poking around a bit, I found a couple other resources that show final "t" in Ainu, consistently spelled with small in kana. The first of these appears to be from 1959, but the second is more recent, probably from the early 2000s. (I couldn't find a definitive date, but it references sources written as late as 1999.)
(I do indeed have very little free time of late, but I try to pop over to Wiktionary when I have a moment. :) ) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:03, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
To summarize my response as follows, I now agree with Eiríkr Útlendi that the "tsu" is probably better.
Thank you for this follow-up. I just looked at three texts, each for a different Ainu dialect, produced for Japanese by 財団法人アイヌ文化振興・研究推進機構 and they all use the small tsu for word-final "t". The small tsu is also used for geminate (doubled) consonants, except for geminate n:
  • "pp" in oyuppa 'fly, run': オユッパ
  • "n", ン is used as in onne 'old': オンネ
The tsu is also used at [6]. I looked a couple of other places but did not find the "to" recommended except on Wikipedia. So it appears the tsu is preferred in actual use.
In either case, my personal opinion is that katakana is not a very useful method to write Ainu, but should be restricted mainly to helping Japanese people with pronunciation. I think time would be better spent using the Latin alphabet instead of katakana, though including katakana forms is a good goal as Ainu coverage gets better on the English Wiktionary. --BB12 (talk) 21:16, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
@Eirikr, indeed, I'd completely forgotten/overlooked that small tsu is one of the standard kanas (gemination sign), so it makes sense that a list of special kanas would forgo listing it.
@BB12, that's something I thought about as well, it seems kana and Latin are "on an equal footing" when it comes to Ainu orthography, perhaps Latin having upper hand. From a purely personal standpoint I do have to say I like the kana spelling a lot for the uniqueness of the situation where a script of a language that has a universal requirement for open syllables is being adapted to a language that often has closed syllables. Perhaps Category:Serbo-Croatian language is a model that can be followed, where every lemma has two entries – one in Latin and one in Cyrillic. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 16:13, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
LOL. I also like that idea :). I have no problem with listing both forms.
BTW, I started investigating Ainu a year or two ago, with the hope of developing words here and on the Japanese Wiktionary, but have been occupied with other things. I have a Japanese book on Ainu grammar and hope I can come back and work on the subject later this year. On the Japanese Wiktionary, there has been some work done in laying out the parts of speech (plus suffixes, etc.), but it is not complete. The parts of speech are complex and it takes time to understand all of it. --BB12 (talk) 21:59, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yeah, I can totally understand that, I regularly disappear from wikt for months, anyways, looking forward to morphological information. :)

On what was posted before: I'm very impressed with A talking dictionary of Ainu, I created a ref template for it {{R:ain:TDA}}. I wonder if "we" (i.e., anyone with at least slight interest in ain) could agree that it could be the definitive standard? (With some modifications.) It also seems to largely agree with this archival page of Ainu Times. As an example, for a certain language called Livonian I set out a goal for all of its entries to be in accordance with a certain dictionary called LĒL (due to the latter's comprehensiveness) at the same time dropping some additional signs that are not part of the standard Liv. orth. I think this would be the case with TDA's usage of an acute accent for cases when stress doesn't fall where expected – I suspect it's not part of orth. in other places (and would complicate automated translit + it might be idiosyncratic to their informant's pronunciation.)

Another thing I'm thinking about: a pronunc. section template for external links to TDA's pronunc. files. There's somewhat of a precedent, e.g., in jellõ where I'm using Google Translate's Latvian synthesizer to come up with a Liv. pronunc. (b/c of aerial convergence the two langs' phonology is near identical), in this case it could link to audio files (only when they fit the lemma of course), I don't think copyright comes into play, as it's clearly off-site, and bandwidth shouldn't be an issue either, imo, as from my experience with recording pronunc. files, a single word file can be as small as 2KB. But this last paragraph is not so important, more "pressing" would be to agree on some source to regard as the recommended reference in terms of orth. Neitrāls vārds (talk) 01:44, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I am also a great fan of the Talking Dictionary, and I like the idea of referring to it as a standard. I don't like the idea of making sure everything is in accordance with it (just because no source is ever perfect, and the introduction notes some of the drawbacks), but see no problem in checking everything against it and making a note if something is different.
Linking to audio files is also a fantastic idea! If you keep making interesting comments like this, I might end up stop working on my other project.... :) --BB12 (talk) 04:45, 27 July 2015 (UTC)