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Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Tungatjeta jote! Po më vjen mirë që paske pune goxha me i futë fjalët e shqipes në Wikilor. Nuk e kuptova pse shqiptimin e fjalës "krypë" gegnisht e ke dhanë si /qryp/ e jo /kryp/. Të fala, --Getoar TX (talk) 03:35, 8 November 2014 (UTC)Reply
Unê jêtoj në Bêlgi, e ktũ e për‑dorin zanorin [k] so i daloj kto dy [k] & [q]. Zãni i K Shqyptar për‑gãn ma shum si [q]. Gabimi vjên prêj alpha‑beti Grêk, sê ê kan hek germën Koppa Ϙϙ[q], edhê na Shqyptärt e kina hup çat germ në alpha‑betën ton, e kimi ni Q amã lixohët [c, ɕ] & te na K lixohët [k & q] invalid IPA characters (&) sê fjält Turqê prêj Arabvê qê I kimi në Shkup jan shkrujtëm origjinalisht mê Κκ / Kk / כך / ك & Ϙϙ / Qq / ק / ق.
Latest comment: 8 years ago23 comments4 people in discussion
Hello, from the Ancient‑Greek studies at dis‑tance, that I have per‑formed in Belgium in 2012, the "Smooth‑breathing" and "Rough‑breathing" serves to in‑dicate & marking the ab‑olition of the archaic letter Di‑gamma Ϝ [v] (Smooth) or Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ [ʃ/s] invalid IPA characters (/) (Rough) in the word, the Ϝ or Σ/Ϻ can be at beginning or middle, it de‑pend of the position of the breathing.
{Di‑gamma Ϝ {also called ϜΑΥ : vau/vaw} is V be‑cause W was Υ/ΟΥ [u/w] invalid IPA characters (/) from Phoenician 𐤅 [u], Ϝ don't share shape and sound with Υ / 𐤅, after some‑time Υ be‑came later [y] and [i] in Modern‑Greek ; Pamphylian Digamma/Wau/Waw Ͷ is [w] and is re‑formated one‑line Υ [u] to write it faster in one‑movement, also Ϝ [v] be‑came Latin F [f], V & F are labio‑dental sound and can be con‑fused, when W & F have nothing in com‑mon, so Latin letter F sound [f] come from Ancient‑Greek letter Ϝ sound [v]...}.
In the French pre‑cise book of Ancient‑Greek "Le Grand Bailly" or "Abrégé Bailly" breathing (spirit in French) are re‑pre‑sented in the words and in the de‑finition, in [RAC : racine/root] Section is ad‑ded the original word with Di‑gamma Ϝ or Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ. In older editions of "Le Grand Bailly" or "Abrégé Bailly", the "Table of roots" (which is no longer pre‑sent in the new editions) speci‑fies the list of roots using Di‑gamma Ϝ [v] & Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ [ʃ/s] invalid IPA characters (/), yet in Wikipedia English or French, no one mention that the "Smooth breathing" and "Rough breathing" were used for Di‑gamma Ϝ & Sigma/San Σ/Ϻ re‑moving, why ??? They talk only about a‑spired H (no one can make a‑spired H be‑fore a RHO, it's im‑possible), so it's wrong... Also In Wiktionary page for Ancient‑Greek words using breathing, the W/V or S/SH is never mentioned in "Archaic pro‑nunciation", like for ex‑ample :
ὙΠΕΡ / HYPER that was originally writed ΣΥΠΕΡ / SHYPER [ʃuper] (Latin : SVPERIOR), or
{I don't use ac‑cent acute / grave in Ancient‑Greek words be‑cause at that time they didn't ex‑ist, also writing Ancient‑Greek word in minuscule is an error, be‑cause at that epoch only capital script with‑out ac‑cent ex‑isted, minuscule should be used only for Modern‑Greek in your Wiktionary or Wikipedia...}.
Gmazdên (talk) 12:09, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
First of all, this is the wrong place for such a discussion, since the people who know about such things aren't necessarily the ones who patrol recent edits, and it's only slightly relevant to this entry- better to ask about this at the About Ancient Greek page. Also, your use of hyphenation in the middle of words is distracting. As to substance: you're jumbling together a long history of sound and orthographical changes as if they all happened at once. Whatever the origin of the rough breathing, it was described by Greek grammarians in enough detail (not to mention being reflected in loans to other languages) so we can say pretty confidently that it really was something like aspiration when it was in use (I don't know enough about the matter of the pronunciation of the aspirated rho to comment, but it looks to me more like a spelling convention than an actual guide to pronunciation). As for the smooth breathing, are you seriously saying that all initial vowels in Ancient Greek started with a digamma? The diacritic may have had its origins in something else, but in the standard orthography as used here it merely indicates the lack of aspiration. As for the grave accent, we only use the acute in entry names, since the grave is only a positional variant. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:33, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I ad‑ded this con‑versation here be‑cause like that every‑body reading the article can have this in‑formation, about the hyph‑en I use it to se‑parate pre‑fix and the root, be‑cause if you check their etymo‑logy they are com‑pound words. It's may‑be dis‑tracting for you but for me is more pre‑cise, ex‑act & ac‑curate.... I'm not saying that "all in‑itial vowels in Ancient‑Greek started with a di‑gamma" but only those using "smooth‑breathing", it's the in‑formation that I get in my dis‑tant learning course, and in dictionary like "Le Grand Bailly" or "Abrégé" they use it to... Mangêzd (talk) 14:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say, but... words in Greek that start with vowels came from words in Proto‑Indo‑European that started with *s, *w, *h₁, *h₂, *h₃, or no consonant. All of these were lost at some point in Attic Greek (but *w became the digamma in West Greek dialects), except when *s (usually) or *w (occasionally) became /h/ (which also developed spontaneously in words such as ἵππος), which was marked in several ways—see w:Heta for more. Various spellings of the name "Hera" in ancient Greek. Left: original spelling, right: modern transcription. Red: consonantal "Heta", blue: vocalic "Eta". 1.) archaic non-Ionic 2.) classical Ionic 3.) intermediate (e.g. Delphi) 4.) intermediate (e.g. Tarentum) 5.) late antiquity. As I recall, no word that had the rough breathing was ever spelled with sigma or san. (Also, please stop using hyphens to separate prefixes. What is etymological is not necessarily correct.) ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 18:39, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ignoring the fact that there is no longer any such thing as a native Ancient Greek speaker, I have studied the language extensively (by the way, the dialects are usually spelled Doric, Ionic, Boeotian, Aeolic; and Thracian and Ancient Macedonian are in fact different languages) I still don't understand what you're trying to say—is it that words with a rough breathing originally started with Σ (they didn't—in Proto-Indo-European they did but by the time Ancient Greek was written it the words were neither written nor pronounced that way) and that words with a smooth breathing originally started with ϝ (only in West Greek, and only when they came from a word beginning with *w in PIE, and only sometimes even then)? If not, it may be more useful to point out specific pages in these books that you are referencing. ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 21:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
When I write please don't ad‑d :::: be‑cause with these, at end, we don't have space to re‑spond (keep one ":" for you, zero ":" for me, if a third speak he can add "::" and so on...). Ok you say "‑IC" but in French we say "‑IEN", so I say in English "IAN", my first language is not English so I make mistake... No‑body know the real Proto‑Indo‑European and this imaginated, re‑con‑structed & sup‑posed language as no re‑maining writing be‑cause at that time, scripture even not ex‑ist, all of that are just theory, and I really don't be‑lieve that all Euro‑middle‑east‑asian languages are coming from one unique‑source root‑language, some word can be com‑mon be‑cause of nomadism. (Some‑time in word in Wiktionary etymo‑logy I see those kind of pseudo‑proto‑indo‑european root, and they share nothing in com‑mon with the structure or pro‑nunciation of that word, but they are writed like is sure & certain that it's the origin & good etymo‑logy, for me these are just sup‑position), like you say for Ancient‑Greek "there is no longer any such thing as a native Ancient‑Greek speaker", I'm sure that there is no Proto‑Indo‑European speaker, at least Ancient‑Greek have re‑maining books & arti‑fact, the proto not. I'm sure that, at the origin, all humans tribes up‑on the Earth had dif‑ferent languages and from a very long‑time... So searching in that one‑root di‑rection is a wrong way... (The Bible say that at Babel god di‑vided languages but at that time and only at that place, they shared a com‑mon Sumerian/Semitic language, not Chinese, Indian, Germanic or Slavic one). Well about page, I don't have these books here, I only have the pages of my course in a folder mentioning these books, I also have the well known "Le Grand Bailly" Ancient‑Greek/French dictionary and the Di‑Gamma & Sigma/San is mentioned in section [RAC : Racine/Root] in al‑most every‑page where a smooth or rough‑breath is used, some not and maybe those use the Hêta [h] that you pro‑posed (the old edition have a table of roots at end with word using re‑moved Di‑Gamma & Sigma/San)... I don't com‑pre‑hend that great English searchers & students don't know about this... But what can I do... No‑body knows every‑thing. I searched in vain in Inter‑Net for a page listing all words and variants using Qoppa, Di‑Gamma [v], Pamphylian Di‑Gamma [w], San, Tzampi but with no suc‑cess, nobody have done that work be‑fore, all archives have been burned by mono‑theist in the library of Alex‑andria and others places, so we will never know the totality of these words, the books that we have to‑day are not the original and are re‑writing (I don't know which Ancient‑Greek books is the older one)... You say "I still don't under‑stand what you're trying to say is it that words with a rough‑breathing originally started with Σ [ʃ] or Ϻ [s] and that words with a smooth‑breathing originally started with ϝ [v] or Ͷ Υ [u/w] invalid IPA characters (/) (Pamphylian digamma)", yes, it's what are saying the Belgian courses and "Le Grand Bailly"... Mangêzd (talk) 22:51, 28 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm using colons because that is how Wiktionary talk pages are formatted. Similarly, Wiktionary policy is to display what is supported by evidence. Academic consensus is that Ancient Greek words did not all begin with consonants. If you'd like specific examples as to why, I can provide them. ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 02:47, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hello there! I'd first like to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments above (if only because they are quite funny). You are correct in your statement that “No-body knows every-thing” [sic]. I for instance was not super familiar with Le Grand Bailly, so I looked it up and downloaded all 450 MB of the original edition. Let me tell you what I found out:
Georg Curtius's Grundzüge der griechischen Etymologie (1873). This book claims to use Proto-Indo-European reconstructions on the first page of its introduction.
Other new etymological works in French and German, but primarily the Memoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris. The SLP was one of the earliest French publishers to adopt Proto-Indo-European theory.
The point I am making above is that Bailly is using early Proto-Indo-European reconstructions for his etymologies in his text. You cannot hold up le Grand Bailly as contradicting the findings of Proto-Indo-European theory as it uses them as its sources.
As to the specific examples you have used, I have looked at all the entries of le Grand Bailly and will write out the etymological information it provides for the first few:
ὑπέρ “(cf. skr. úpari, et lat. super avec s init.)” → (compare Sanskrit उपरि(upári) and Latin super with initial s)
ἕξ “(cf. lat sex, dor. ϝέξ de *sweks, cf. gall. chwech)” → (compare Latin sex, Doric ϝέξ(wéx) from (Proto-Indo-European) *swéḱs, compare Welsh chwech)
ἐκ “(ἐς pour ἐξ en crét., béot.; avec le datif en arc.-cypr.; cf. lat. ex etc.)” → (ἐς(es) for ἐξ(ex) in Cretan, Boeotian; with the dative in Arcadocypriot; compare Latin ex etc.)
ἔργον “(dor. ϝέργον, cf. ἕρδω; v.h.a. werc, etc.)” → (Doric ϝέργον(wérgon), compare ἕρδω(hérdō), Old High German werc, etc.)
While some of these entries do contain digammas, none of these forms are used as pronunciations or as ]earlier forms but as separate Doric forms. You'll also find that the word ὑπέρ never had an initial sigma and that the initial s in Latin super comes from a later reanalysis of eks-uper in Latin. So, I'm afraid that le Grand Bailly, which seems like a good, if outdated, dictionary, does not support any of your claims. It is true that deletion of PIE *w and *s did result in the majority of words beginning in rough breathing and that in some dialects the ϝ is retained. However, this does not mean that the word ἕξ was ever pronounced [seks] (much less [ʃeks]) during the span of Ancient Greek. If we were discussing Proto-Greek, this would be a different matter, but we are not and I am sure you do not believe Proto-Greek exists in any case.
All of this is beside the point however, which is that you have been being quite rude to the other contributors. This might be overlooked if the majority of your claims were not also false or based out of a misinterpretation of an accurate source. Therefore:
Do not bring up le Grand Bailly to support your argument―it does not.
Do not edit any Wiktionary pages with your theories―they are inaccurate.
Do not use the Tower of Babel as evidence in a scholarly argument―it discredits you.
Do not continue writing with hyphens in your English―it is broken enough already.
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
Well, it's good that you down‑loaded the book, but it doesn't change nothing to what the pro‑fessors writed in my course, they states that :
Smooth‑breathing are in‑dication of Di‑Gamma re‑moving Ϝ [v] or Υ→Ͷ [u/w] invalid IPA characters (/) sound {Ͷ is faster one‑line way to write Υ ancient value [u] in one movement},
Rough‑breathing for Sigma/San re‑moving [s] or [ʃ],
If you don't want to be‑lieve it's really bad & sad for you. May‑be Shigma & San from Phoenician 𐤔 [ʃ] & 𐤎 [s] was used by the proto‑shella‑nique (dorian form of Hellenic), then the Attic Hellenique re‑moved [ʃ] & [q] (be‑cause the Attic Ancient‑Greek don't used those sounds, and they keeped only the value SAN [s] for Sigma. These letters [ʃ q] don't ex‑ist any‑more in Modern‑Greek and re‑maining re‑writed book of Ancient‑Greek (not original burned one) that we uses today... {About your question, I be‑lieve that the proto‑shella‑nic had ex‑isted in archaic‑time using sound of Phoenician like [ʃ & q] invalid IPA characters (&), for me [w] was more a [u] like sound and was probably pro‑nounced [ua/ue/uo/ui] invalid IPA characters (///) than [wa/we/wo/wi] invalid IPA characters (///)}.
In Albanian some Greek word are used with [ʃ] like :
shurr (piss) from Ancient‑Greek ΟΥΡΩ] → ΣΟΥΡΩ [ʃur], we (Albanian) keeped the old pro‑nunciation, there are other ex‑amples like Kul‑shedra but I don't know all of them,
do you think that URINA / ΟὙΡΟΝ (piss) & VRANUS / ΟΥΡΑΝ ὌΡΑΝ ὨΡΑΝ / אורנוֹס (sky) {from sup‑posed *ϜΟΡΣΑΝΟΣ (but I don't be‑lieve in that origin)} share the same root ? No, one start with [s/ʃ] invalid IPA characters (/) other VRANUS / ΟϜΡΑΝΟΣ [ovran‧os] invalid IPA characters (‧) with [v], and can be linked to shemitic אור ΑϜΡ [avr] (Latin : AVRUM) the light /fire (sky = sun, light & fire) {when the smooth‑breathing is up‑on ᾿Υ then you re‑place it by a Di‑Gamma Ϝ},
ΟΥΡΟΣ (canal, to dig) {from ὈΡΥΓΜΑ ὈΡΥΚΣΩ / ὈΡΥΚΤΩ & ὈΡΥΚΤΟΣ, Latin E‑RECTVS / E‑REGO} &
ΟΥΡΟΣ from ὈΡΟΣ → ϜΟΡΟΣ (montain, hill ; point of ob‑servation) &
ΟΥΡΟΣ from ὉΡΟΣ → ΣὉΡΟΣ (boundary, limit, marking stone)...
Five same words, meaning five thing ??? Bad writing be‑cause of e‑rased Ϝ & Σ/Ϻ
The ex‑ample I used above (S'HYPER, S'HALIOS, S'HEX), doesn't show Sigma/Shigma in [R. (Racine/Root) section] of "Le Grand Bailly" de‑finition but were used in my course, but in others word with rough‑breathing the [R. is there]... But if you want to be wrong it's your pro‑blem....
You say that there are used in se‑parate Doric‑forms, ok, for me Dorian & Eolian are the most original Ancient‑Greek...
I will con‑tinue to write with hyph‑en be‑cause I like that and it's more pre‑cise & ac‑curate, never on any forums (like Nvidia, Intel, Ubisoft, Steam, Hwinfo, Guru3D, Microsoft...) some‑one told me to write how he want, some have asked why I do this but after ex‑planation they under‑standed, I don't think you have the right to told me how to write... Pre‑fix can be se‑parated, since even in Wiktionary.org these words show in etymo‑logy that they are com‑pound words, also I don't use that technique in de‑finition page but only in talk dis‑cussion... But that's not the most im‑portant.
Still you con‑tinue to say that Di‑Gamma Ϝ is [w] when the links & ex‑plication I pro‑vided above told the con‑trary... So you want to in‑duce others in error be‑cause Old Germanic languages (like English de‑rivation) use [w] so for you Ancient‑Greek word to (in Latin W didn't ex‑isted, for writing Old Germanic word they used Double V : VV [w] be‑cause V was [u/v] invalid IPA characters (/) much later, in medieval time, W [w] ap‑peared as a com‑plete letter, all Latin variant like Espagnol, Portuguese, French, Italian use V or U for Latin words, only in English, we find W for Latin words like Wine (in French Vin for VINVM))...
Still in Modern‑Greek or others languages of that location of South‑East Evrope, like :
Macedonian (where I'm from),
Albanian (my origin),
Serbian, Bulgarian,
Turkish,
Italian,
W [w] don't ex‑ist and is not used for original words (we are more near than England of Greece, I think if that sound [w] was used at a old‑time, these neighbor tribes will have it in the alpha‑bet), so why keep saying that Di‑Gamma Ϝ is a [w] & not [v] when clearly Latin F [f] came from Greek Ϝ [v] since [f] & [v] are labio‑dental sound and can be con‑fused, when [w] & [f] have nothing in com‑mon...
In the "Abrégé bailly" of 1965 (N°10‑1340‑26) the "Proto‑Indo‑Evropean" sources that you are mentioned are not pre‑sent, they are in "Le Grand Bailly" (there is "Liste des auteurs & des ouvrages" but all of them are shella‑nic one, in my 2005 edition N°16/7939/8 (re‑viewed by L. Séchan & P. Chantraine", pro‑fesseurs à la faculté des Lettres de Paris", I see the source you mentioned at bottom of the page VIII under the text (with 1. Grundzüge der griechischen Etymologie, von G. Curtius. 4° éd. Leipzig, 1873) but the link you pro‑vided is use‑less be‑cause I don't know the German)...
I can use "Le Grand Bailly" to sup‑port my argument be‑cause (for me it's true), and I don't plan to add ancient‑greek word or etymo‑logy or archaic‑proto‑shella‑nic pro‑nonciation in Wiktionary, but I can do on my private‑web‑page, be‑cause here, non‑academic theory or new hypo‑thesis are al‑ways re‑jected (I just wanted to know about breathing and why no one mention Sigma or Di‑Gamma re‑moving re‑placed by smooth or rough‑breathing in Wikipedia or Wiktionary pages).
The pro‑blem about what you said about Sigma re‑moving in "Crêgu" (truth‑full) {con‑trary of "Greek" (the Roman called the Shella‑nic GRAECVS "un‑truth‑full‑one" or "false‑one")}, it's that you keep just ex‑ample that ac‑credit your re‑sponse, leaving others ex‑ample (using Sigma/San in "Le Grand Bailly [R. section] of the de‑finition") on the side... It's you choice...
Here are others ex‑ample writed in "Bailly" Table of Roots for Sigma re‑moving with Rough‑Breathing :
ἉΜΑ → ΣΑΜΑ (latin SIMVL)
ἉΔΟΣ → ΣΑΔΟΣ (R. ΣΑΔ)
ἉΛΣ → ΣΑΛΣ (R. ΣΑΛ, Latin : Sal)
ἉΛΛΟΜΑΙ → ΣΑΛΛΟΜΑΙ (R. ΣΑΛ, Latin : Salio)
ἉΡΜΑ → ΣΑΡΜΑ {SHARMONIA} (R. ΣΑΡ : union, link)
ἙΔΟΣ → ἙΔΟΣ (R. ΣΕΔ : sit)
Ἑ‑ΣΠΕΤΕ → ΣΕ‑ΣΠΕΤΕ (R. ΣΕΠ : to follow, Latin SEQVOR) from ἙΠΩ → ΣΕΠΩ (tie, to follow) ≠ ΕΠΩ → ϜΕΠΩ (say, Latin VOCARE) {in Greek P be‑came Latin Q}
And lot others but I'm gonna not search for all of them in the thousand pages book, I'm an amateur and I really don't have much time for this, the best way for you is to look in Table of Roots of ancient editions be‑fore 1950 six‑teen re‑vision version (that e‑rased that "list" and re‑moved some [R. ] in‑formations in de‑finitions...
My hypo‑thesis about im‑possible only one‑root for all world languages is good but it seem that you don't want to com‑pre‑hend.
In the past, I have make donation (not big) to Wiktionary.org, so for me, I have the right to con‑tribute and to ex‑press my self be‑cause it's a United‑Nation Uni‑versal Human rights (article 19) and I can also use the right of "Freedom of Speech & Ex‑pression" that the con‑stitution of the U.S.A guaranty, these laws, allow me to do this, if I was a male‑ficent one, I will do it hided with‑out log‑in, but no, I use my name, to be honest and ask the opinion of others in talk‑page, thanks any‑way for your feed‑back... As I said I don't plan to add Ancient or Proto‑Shella‑nic stuff... Mangêzd (talk) 09:53, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Well, I am going to gracefully resign from this conversation about Ancient Greek and your hypotheses thereon. I will say your right to free speech of course is protected. That doesn't have actual bearing in this circumstance, but I feel that I would be getting into too much trouble trying to explain why. I warn, though, that if you do edit content using this theory, it may lead to you getting banned, which would be unfortunate. —JohnC510:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Why should I be banned for giving an opinion or sharing my know‑ledge, ad‑mini‑strators are not as bad as this, so no need to threaten me, I've done nothing wrong... Your statement is not very demo‑cratic and open‑minded one... Good day. Mangêzd (talk) 12:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I would add this, what I truly like in "Le Grand Bailly", it's that every word, have in‑formations like :
hyph‑en (pre‑fix se‑parated from the root),
first time writed and by who (author), in Wiktionary etymo‑logy, that's not the case, for ex‑ample you said that HYPER co‑gnate with upariउपरि(upári), but, when this word ap‑peared first, in Hindi or in Greek ? There is no in‑dication in upari or hyper page, is upari older or hyper ? I think that for better com‑pre‑hension for future‑generation, every word ad‑ded in Wiktionary should have at‑tested "date of first use" and in which "book or in‑scription" & "pre‑cise location" of first writing or en‑gravation and if possible, ad‑ding the scan (if book) or photo (if it's upon a stone or else) on the Wiki page as a picture, that would be great for all...
I put for your under‑standing more ex‑amples of re‑moved Sigma in Ypsilon Rough‑breathing really writed in the dictionnary.
ὙΣ ὙΟΣ → ΣΥΣ ΣΥΟΣ [su‧s su‧os] invalid IPA characters (‧‧) also writed in this manner : ΣΥΣ ΣΥΟΣ [su‧s su‧os] invalid IPA characters (‧‧) in "Le Grand Gaffiot" (pig, swine, hog ; Latin : SVS, SVIS ; German Schwein, Danish svin, and more distantly to Polish świnia, Russian свинья)
ΥἹΟΣ → ΣΥΙΟΣ [ʃuj‧os] invalid IPA characters (‧) ([R. ΣΥ] : son ; compare with Latin : SVVS, German : Ich).
Here's the thing—I'm going to give it to you straight: you are making connections based on an incomplete understanding of linguistics. It's a mistake that a lot of people make; I know I have made it myself, and I hope that you also will come to realize your (or your professors') errors. Until then, however, take note that linguistics—like English—is not a field of opinions, it is a field of theories, a word which means "hypotheses that are supported by evidence". One bit of evidence is that there are some words that originally started with a digamma—ἔργον is a great example—and we know this because there are Doric inscriptions (incidentally, Doric is not "more pure", unless you mean "more pure than Koinê", which could arguably be true) that have a digamma (ϝέργον) and also because there are cognates (English work, (Old) Armenian գործ(gorc), Avestan 𐬬𐬀𐬭𐬆𐬰𐬆𐬨(varəzəm), etc.) that have an initial /w/ (or whatever *w became in that language.) Whereas ἐκ has neither of these things—there is no form **ϝεκ anywhere, and no cognates of it have any initial consonants. There's a reason that "here, non‑academic theory or new hypothes[e]s are always rejected"—it's that academic theories are supported by evidence, whereas new hypotheses are not. Incidentally, here is some evidence:
Words that start with a spiritus asper come from:
initial *s: ἕδος, ἕπομαι. In no dialect was this ever spelled with sigma or san; instead we know this because of cognates with initial /s/.
initial *sw: ἕξ (Welsh chwech, other cognates have either /s/ or /w/), inscriptions have hϝ/ϝh/ϝ (where "h" represents heta.)
initial *y: ὅς (Sanskrit यद्(yad), Avestan 𐬫𐬋(yō), Phrygian ιος(ios)), ἧπαρ (Sanskrit यकृत्(yakṛt), Latin iecur, Old Armenian լեարդ(leard)). Only in Cyprian was this ever spelled with a different symbol, and even then only before α.
analogy: ἡμεῖς (with ὑμεῖς, which had in PIE initial *y); most words starting with ὑ and some with ῥ (examples: ὕδρα, ὕδωρ, ὑπέρ, ὑπό, ὑφαίνω, ῥάφυς). In no case do any of these examples have cognates with (equivalents of) initial s- or y- (except Latin super/sub which are from eks-uper and eks-ub) ; and initial w- is due to PIE ablaut.
something obscure: ἵππος (again, no cognates with *s or *y.)
Words that start with a spritius lenis come from:
initial *s: ἔχω, maybe others I can't remember. This is uncommon, but it happened.
(EDIT: okay, not sure what happened there at all. I've put the page back like I meant to have it.)
Hi, thank for feed‑back. I under‑stand what your are saying... Think what you want, as I said I don't plan to make ad‑ds of ancient‑greek or proto‑shella‑nic pro‑nunciation. I just asked some‑thing and you re‑spond that you think that you are right, and I'm wrong and for me you are wrong and I'm right, so no need to talk much more... Mangêzd (talk) 16:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I just re‑sponded to that one be‑cause I'm Shqyptar Albanian (Gheg), and I never used and eared that word (Agon), be‑cause at Skopje (Macedonia) and in Kosovo, we use Sabah, Agon is pro‑bably used by the Tosk Albanian (Shqipëtar Ortho‑dox, living in the south of albania at north of Greece)... But I just wanted to say that if αὐγή it's a "bright light, like fire" then this co‑gnate with Agni, Ignis & Ogon/Agun... F.Y.I. Still, I don't see the link between dawn & agony, there is no one. Mangêzd (talk) 18:36, 30 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The words you listed come from a different root, reconstructed as Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/h₁n̥gʷnis. In either case the words don't have initial consonants. Additionally: once again, linguistics is not a field of opinions, there is no "for me I am right and you are wrong". What is right is that (1) academic consensus is, among other things, that Proto-Indo-European is a real language which sometimes has initial vowels, (2) this academic consensus is supported by evidence, (3) Wiktionary publishes academic consensus for this reason. This is why your "etymologies" are not shown. ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 02:08, 31 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ok thank for your ex‑planation, but as I said I don't be‑lieve in imagined & re‑con‑structed Proto-Indo-Evropean... So the root h₁n̥gʷnis is false be‑cause h₁n is not used in real ex‑isting word like Og‑on, Ag‑ni, Ig‑nis & Ag‑un (ex‑cept in Hebrew נוגה (NGE) & Arab نجم read it NGM in Egyptian manner), OG AG IG co‑gnate with AYG. This is just my point of view. I don't ob‑ligate no one to be‑lieve it. But even a Academic con‑sensus begin with theory & hypo‑thesis. Mangêzd (talk) 08:07, 31 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
I have one more thing to say after thinking a lot about this, you ex‑plain that the Rough‑breathing is a mark showing the a‑spiration [h] and not the Sigma re‑moving [s] or [ʃ], and the Ancient‑Greek words using it are written with H in Latin (ὑπέρ → hyper), but for the Smooth‑breathing there is no a‑spiration [h] & the words using it are not written with a H in Latin, so if the smooth sign is not an in‑dication of Di‑Gamma Ϝ ϝ [v] or Ͷ ͷ [u/w] invalid IPA characters (/) re‑moving why using this sign, it is use‑less, in‑stead they could write normally the Ἀ Ἐ Ἠ Ἰ ὐ Ὠ ῤ → Α Ε Η Ι Ο Υ Ω Ρ, no need to a speci‑fic sign for that... This prove that this theories of [h] is false in a part. Mangêzd (talk) 07:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Since you seem to have know‑ledge about Ancient‑Qrêgu, do you know a page where all words (Doric, Ionian, Eolian, Attic) using Qoppa Ϙ ϙ / Ϟ ϟ are listed, I really need it for my works... Mangêzd (talk) 19:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, stephen
When talking in "About Ancient Greek" with people about breathing someone responded to my message but removed lot of content of the page, like history link (of 2010) and my previous message, I think is doing vandalism, can you check :
It was obviously an accident. The editor is an admin, not a vandal. In the second instance, he reverted himself and added the material back in. —Stephen(Talk)19:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments3 people in discussion
Hi, Stephen, sorry for your dif‑ficulty to under‑stand my English now... That really make me sad and con‑fuse... It's be‑cause or Hyph‑en or the structure, grammar or vocabulary ? Can you ex‑plain to me ? It's strange be‑cause in others forums or in on‑lines games, no one have dif‑ficulty to com‑pre‑hend what I'm saying...
I don't under‑stand what you are saying about in formation what formation ??? Can you ex‑plain please... [1]
I ad‑ded the same comment on multi‑ple talk‑page like "Sigma, Digamma, San" for others users to give their opinions to this and to share the in‑formation (read it "information"), you want that this con‑versation to con‑tinue in Ancient‑Greek talk page, but no one go their and after some‑time, it would be in history "2015 link", it would be more use‑full to have the comment in each talk pages : digamma, Sigma, San...
I'm happy to talk to you again, after so much time... Be‑cause I re‑member you are an nice & good man.
Take care, good day. email was sent by User:Nemzag 13:55 30 May 2015 (UTC)
I don’t know why it was difficult to understand. The hyphens are confusing, but when I remove them in my mind, your sentences often make no sense to me now. You said something about formation. I could not understand it. I doubt that there is no one else who has difficulty understanding you. Probably the few who replied to you were the ones who were able to understand you. Those who did not reply probably had difficulty understanding.
Most editors here do not read the talk pages for the entries here. People read their own talk pages, and those people who are interested in a certain language will read the talk page of the appendix for that language. —Stephen(Talk)09:02, 2 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
By the way Nemzag, I'd like to apologize for my harsh comments earlier. I was not in a good mood when I made them and regretted them afterwards. Please forgive my rudeness. —JohnC509:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ok, man, no pro‑blem, I ac‑cept your apo‑logize, may‑be my English is not very good now (I don't speaked it for 3,5 years) & may‑be I use a French‑structure‑like in English, so may‑be you under‑stand or com‑pre‑hend it bad, and it look like I'm rude to... I apo‑logize to you and ObsequiousNewt, any‑way, thanks for your re‑sponses to my question. Mangêzd (talk) 09:39, 2 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, about what I asked yester‑day, I don't think it's user job to pro‑tect and con‑trol data ad‑ded or re‑moved by other users, it's the role of moderators & ad‑mini‑strators... I really think that this guy is doing vandalism in Albanian, and even, he is not one & he don't speak it, using for re‑ference the work of Vladimir Orel, so why he is making ad‑d... I don't think that using this book is good for Albanian as I said be‑fore :
Even a other user (Etimo) ex‑plained to him to not re‑move Albanian etymo‑logy krah based up‑on the theory of Russian Israeli Vladimir Orel that use the falsi‑fied standardized Tosk words to search origins, in‑stead of com‑paring with the authentic Geg variant to)... I don't say that all etymo‑logy of Vladimir Orel are false or not true, some are cor‑rect, when he use Latin or Greek root for words (but I don't be‑lieve in imagined Proto‑Indo‑Evropean one, his book don't use Turkish, Persian, Hindu, Romi/Ashkali, Arabian source or words for etymo‑logy). I don't think that users using the book of Vladimir for Etymo‑logy, have the right to e‑rase others Albanian etymo‑logy con‑tent be‑cause of it, in‑stead they should just ad‑d in‑formations from that book & keep others users in‑formations to (like "co‑gnate" or "new theory"), they don't have the right to re‑move every‑thing be‑cause it's not in that book, for Albania his book is not the best re‑ference... So we would be very grate‑ful if the ad‑mini‑strator & moderators re‑strict his usage.
Thank, good day. email was sent by User:Nemzag 00:16 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Admins can only control data if the data is known to them, or if an edit is clearly incorrect in some obvious way. If the admins do not know a language, and if the edit appears reasonable, we can’t do anything about that. Only the editors who know something about the matter can do anything about it. —Stephen(Talk)06:11, 3 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, Stephen, I com‑pre‑hend what you are saying but in this case, even if the moderators or ad‑mini‑strators don't know the languages, they can easily note that cognating words re‑moving is not a good think, but just less in‑formation & less con‑tent, the ad‑mini‑strators should really not allow those kind of "user‑e‑rasing", ad‑ding in‑formation it's ok, but not e‑rase others con‑tributions (e‑specially with‑out talking with the con‑tributor first)...
Since four years of my ab‑sence, do you finded a Albanian ad‑mini‑strator to pro‑tect Albanian (Geg & Tosk) words from this kind of vandalism ? I re‑member that be‑fore you didn't have one...
Thank for your feed‑back. email was sent by User:Nemzag, 01:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Such edits are common and are made for various reasons. You have to discuss it with the editor who made the changes.
Latest comment: 8 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion
Hi, you added this word, but when we search fro mbrëmë (french keyboard), the word is not referenced, it's seem you use cyrillic "yo" character for the "ё", why ? Why do you not use standard Latin script "ë" ? Mangêzd (talk) 11:26, 3 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Mir‑dita, Etimo, no the character is not used in Latin‑Script, I don't under‑stand why you using it in Albanian word using Latin‑Script, if you want Ë or ë use Unicode character U+00CB & U+00EB, and not Cyrillic script one "yo" : Ё U+0401 & ё U+0451... I doesn't mater if you say that is regularly used (only by Russia, Belarusia & Tajikistan), first tell me by who, and two, I never eard that be‑fore ??? No, the Albanian use Latin‑script so no need to use Cyrillic letter for some Albanian Latin‑script word, this ad‑d (mbrёmё) was re‑moved by ad‑mini‑strator, also others words in future using some Cyrillic letter in‑stead of Latin in Albanian Latin‑script word, would be re‑moved to... The peoples seeking de‑finition in the "search button" use a standard Latin key‑board, with Cyrillic letter in your ad‑d we can't find the word in search, don't use it any‑more it's use‑less. Mangêzd (talk) 18:26, 4 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, I want to ask you why you give de‑finition night (nätë) & evening (mbrëmje / mrãmje) to darkë ? At Skopje and Kosovo, this word don't have that meaning.
In "Dictionnaire Français-Albanais / Fjalor Shqip-Frengjisht, page 444, Vedat Kokona, Tiranë, 2002, →ISBN" this word has not that under‑standing ("night" or "evening"). Vedat Kokona give also the meaning "Réveillon" (Eve of Christ‑mas or New Year, feast), that I'm gonna add.
In "Flajor i gjuhës së sotme shqipës", they write "koha pasi perëndon dielli; mbrëmje, vakt darkës" ; "time after the sun goes down; evening, time for dinner" ; they write evening (mbrëmje) not night (natë)...
Latest comment: 8 years ago26 comments4 people in discussion
Mir‑dita / Hi, I ad‑ded the phonetic for Gheg & Tosk variant, I use [k] for Tosk be‑cause this sound come from the front of the mouth, and [q] for Gheg be‑cause in this dia‑lect the sound come from the back of palate (soft), us Shqyptar Gheg we use Ϙ ق[q] & Κ ك[k], but lot of peoples can't make the dif‑ference.
I'm living in Belgium, and here they use the French sound [k] only so I can make the dif‑ference with the Gheg K [q] sound of my languages & dialects from Skopje (father) & Kosovo (mother). Be‑cause I have learn Arabic, I can make the dif‑ference be‑tween these two sound [k] & [q]. The sound K of Gheg Shqyptar look more like [q]. The pro‑blem & error come from Greek alpha‑beta, be‑cause they re‑moved the letter Koppa Ϙ and us, Shqyptart, we loosed that letter in our alpha‑beta, we have a Q but we read it [c, ɕ] and in our land K can be readed [k & q] invalid IPA characters (&) be‑cause words from Turkish or Arabic (using Ϙ / ق[k]) that we have in Shqyp and in Shkup are writed only with letter K that which there‑fore have two value [k] & [q]. We need to dis‑tinguish these two letters & sounds.
Hi, Tosk k is not automatically Gheg q for all words, most of the cases they are spelled k the same, Tosk kalb is the same in Gheg kalb..there are cases of k-q parallelism though, but they have to be analysed separately. Loanwords from Turkish (also Arabic words) beginning with k are rendered q in Albanian (koefte-qofte, kebab-qebab etc). The further palatalization of q into ç is a Gheg phenomenon and has nothing to do with Greek (or Turkish or Arabic for that matter)! Etimo (talk) 20:31, 8 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I don't say that K is auto‑matically a [q] in Gheg but in some case the Ghegs pro‑nounce the K from the back of the palate, and is a [q], this sound ex‑ist like the nasal that Tosk don't use... I agree with you that lot of Arabic / Turkish word using K [k] & Q [q] are trans‑formed to [c] but no all of them, but for me that is not normal, and those (a‑theist writers) who made these falsi‑fications just want to di‑vide the mu‑slims from under‑standing each others by con‑fusing their common words (lot of words from the Ottoman era (Arabic, Altaic & Persian) that we still use in Macedonia & Kosova are not in the standard Albanian dictionary and were re‑moved during com‑munist time, but in that sup‑posed Illyrian root based dictionary you can find lot of new ad‑ded words from "Greek / Ortho‑dox" & "Latin / Cath‑olic", why this hypo‑crisy against the i‑slamic culture ? Why to re‑ject it in our language)...
I also noticed that in Tosk the Gheg P is often changed to MB, in mod‑ern Greek ΜΠ is [b], it seem that the Shqiptar Orthodox (from the south of Albania & north of Greece) have chosen to make P [p] to ΜΜΠ/ΜΒ [mb] (pruj mbroj (rujtar) ; prapa mbrapa ; prãmë mbrëmë ; shtremoj shtrembëroj).
The Toskërisht change :
N to ND (nër ndër ; ner‧oj nder‧oj ; kn‧oj kënd‧oj ; shn‧et shënd‧et from SANITAS ; as‑doni‑here as‑ndonjë‑here)
Ë is added at the end of lot of words or in middle (kput këput ; Zot Zotë ; ms‧oj mës‧oj ; burr burrë) in French Ë[ə] (euh[œ ə ʌ] is the sound that they make when they don't know some‑thing, for me it is the sound of cow, the sound of dumb‑ness, that the Standard/Tosks heavily uses, the Ghegs don't use it much, but Ghegs uses the nazal Ã[ɑ̃] sound of the mule / ass, animal who generally is very stubborn, ob‑stinate & ob‑durate...
‑VE to ‑ËVE (aristo‑kratikve aristo‑kratikëve)
UN/ËN to UR (pasuni pasuri ; rujtën rujtun rujtur ; dashuri dashuni ; rrezitun rrezitur ; ‑UR is fire in Latin UR‧Ô (UaR → WaR → gUaRra / gUeRro ; fURno), English bURning, Arabic أور & Hebrew אור (OR/AVR is light אוֹר & UR אוּר is fire), ‑UR is a very bad ending)
D to VD (deka vdeka)
‑OJA to ‑ONJA (shqypoja, shqyponja ; zoja zonja)
US me UES (ms‧us mës‧ues, re‑ag‧us re‑ag‧ues)
UJ me UAJ (gruja gruaja ; rujtun ruajtur)
Y to I (hyp hip ; hina hyra ; Shqypni Shqipëri) {be‑cause of mod‑ern Greek pro‑nunciation of ypsilon be‑coming ipsilon}
Ê to I {be‑cause of Hêta be‑coming Hita : Tem Tim ; Jêmja Im}
I'm a Shqyptar Shkupjan Gheg and truly I don't like to learn & use the standard Shqip based on Tosk for me this language is a total falsi‑fication of our ancient words & my origin. I'm very sad that in Kosovo they beginned to use the standard in Tele‑vision & media, this is a re‑jection of the Gheg root that we have... I don't want our di‑stinctive dia‑lect to dis‑ap‑pear. I don't under‑stand that, when they made and im‑posed the standard in 1969, they don't used the two variants for each words at same time, but only the Tosk one (read this)... Une foli Gegnisht e jam i knaqt se e foli qat guh e vjetër... Still I want to thank you be‑cause I noticed that when you ad‑d Albanian words, most of the time you ad‑d the Gheg variant to, and that is demo‑cratic & re‑spect‑full... Mangêzd (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I don't think I understand correctly the point you're trying to make. Standard Albanian (or even Albanian etymologies in itself) are not based on religious considerations, this matter has nothing to do AT ALL with linguistics, contrary to what you're trying to insinuate. Foreign words, be it Ottoman, Arabic, Italian or German, are identified as such, as foreign, period. If this hurts your religious sensibilities, that's your problem, but they are not Albanian words, and this is a linguitic issue, not a religious one. If Greek or Latin words have been added, they are words from various fields (science, physics, bio‑logy, medicine etc) used in almost all European languages. No such words have been left in Albanian from Arabic or Ottoman Turkish (you shouldn't lump them together in Islamic culture, be more specific), at least not in the degree comparable to Greek and Latin to have an influence on Albanian language. It has nothing to do with hypocrisy. If you're trying to insinuate that Albanian identity (or language) is some kind bound to Islam just because of the long Ottoman dominion, then you have absolutely no clue of Albanian history, identity or language (I'm sorry to hear that mass islamization of Albanians in Kossovo and Macedonia is still a sad issue of national identity). Finally, adding Gheg Albanian variants is not a matter of respect, it has more to do with history (Gheg Albanian has the most ancient literature and would have been standard Albanian if were not for the Communist regime who made Tosk Albanian the official language), thus it goes without saying that the Gheg variant of a word must be indicated. I strongly advise you to study more the history of the Albanian people and language (and leave religion alone), because this is where you'll find all the answers you need. Etimo (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ad‑ding more words in our languages is a rich‑ness, if you look English : is made of old Germanic, Celtic, Saxon, Latin, ancient Greek, Scandinave, French... So why re‑jecting or de‑forming i‑slamic, Persian or Altaic words, we can use them to en‑rich our cultures and to ex‑press our‑selfs in a more varied way... You say Latin & Greek were ad‑ded be‑cause of sciences, biology, medicine & physics, but in Turkey, Iran (Persia) or in Arabic states they have sciences in‑stitutes (and the Arabian medecine is well known) but I'm not sure they need Latins or Greeks words for their dis‑coveries or to de‑scribe them, like those Albanian ad‑ded... I'm truly Albanian but I don't re‑ject the i‑slamic culture and for me those who are mu‑slims are truly Albanian (and i‑slam is a part of Gheg identity that started since Christianity be‑cause the pro‑phets of the Holy Coran are the same than the Torah and even the archaic albanian believed in one zot), I don't see the Ottoman era with a bad point of view like you, for me they were con‑querer like Bulgarian, Byzantine, Mongol {becoming the Ottoman after con‑version to i‑slam}, Roman, Shellênic, (Persian) empire was at their time, all of them have in‑vaded Illyria and im‑posed their languages & be‑lieve, so for me they are all on same level, why ac‑cepting the Roman & Greek cultures (architectures, icons, arts, statues, nudity) and re‑jecting the Altaic, Persian & Arabic/Hebrew/Semitic, it is just hypo‑crisy for me... I have lot of Turkish, Maghreban, Italian friends and I never had pro‑blem with them... Re‑jecting the re‑ligion is typically the com‑munist era way of thinking... Lot of Albanian after first world war fled to Turkey to save their live and they still live there in peace and under protection of the Turks, so no for me the Ottoman were not bad as are the Serbians...
I'm happy to ear that Gheg is older and that is the reason why you ad‑d it, I have read some article about that, but I can't find the older book in archive.org, and even if I find it, it would be hard to de‑cipher be‑cause of the style of the script... For Albanian words I would like to have in "Alternative Forms" the Arvanitic in Greek, the Gheg, the Tosk, the Elbasan version using Elbasan Unicode script, the Ottoman era Arabic script version & the Cyrillic variant at the time of Bulgarian Em‑pire, that would be great and very pre‑cise... You say that re‑ligion is not im‑portant in linguistic but I'm sure that those who made the falsi‑fications in Albanian, do that with an anti‑re‑ligious mind... Mangêzd (talk) 20:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
This is not the place where to debate religious or political matters, especially when it comes to the role of Islam in modern Albanian politics, which is highly controversive. As a researcher of Albanian language and history, I have my own views on the matter which are exactly opposite to yours. Unfortunately, I have met many Albanians who have a quite distorted view of Albanian history, identity and language because they filter it through their religious identity, and this is especially true with Islam. I'm really sorry to assert that the long Ottoman rule have left such scars in Albanian national identity..I will answer to your questions, but I won't continue this debate any further, since this is an etymological dictionary, not a forum where to debate religion. First of all: you CANNOT put the impact of Latin and Greek culture on Albanian on same level with the Ottoman one. Latin and Greek culture are THE BASIS of 2000 years of European culture and identity, and you cannot in any way compare those with the Ottoman tyranny on the Balkans who did absolutely NOTHING to enhance the culture and the spirit of the dominated people. The Ottoman dominion on the Albanian people was of the most vicious kind, as it attempted to delete the European identity of the Albanian people and substitute it with an islamic one for merely political and military reasons (something they achieved with success for large swaths of the population, and continue to do). Ottomans didn't try to educate Albanians, foster their urban and cultural development as, for instance, Rome did, Albanians were enemies, infedels, who led the most stubborn resistence, and were always treated as such. Once they were conquered even the Albanian language itself was forbidden, so what kind of culture could you learn or spread if you're not even allowed to teach your own language? At the end of the Ottoman rule, Albania resembled more a modern post-war Afghan village, with almost 95% of illiteracy, a data enough to make you understand how wrong it is to indulge in historical revisionism moved by religious motives. Contrary to what you declare, it clearly shows that you identify yourself first of all as a mu‑slim, then as an Albanian (proving my point). Albanians are EUROPEANS in language, culture and ethnicity, and just like any other European nation they embrace and have always embraced their European culture and traditions, and this is not a matter of opion, it's a fact, a reality! 300 years of Ottoman islam cannot change that! Finally, you cannot compare the role of Islam with that of Christianity in the history of Albania or the Balkans. Gheg Albanians are and have always been Catholics, like the Arberesh people are orthodox, and the islamic identity you talk about came very late to have any historical weight. Islam was never an apostolic religion in the Balkans (like Christianity), and it was never digested by the cultures it came in contact with. It is an accepted fact by all mainstream scholars that islam got a foothold among Albanians only between the 17th and 18th century because of social and economic reasons, not because of spontaneous conversion (how can you spontaneously convert to the religion of an occupier??). So, that said, I renew my invitation to you to put aside religion when analysing the history of a people, and judge things dispassionately, otherwise you're just taking sides, the side of those who have always used religion to advance their own agenda, and you're simply playing their game.Etimo (talk) 22:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I think in con‑trary that it is the per‑fect place to do it, since I meet you here, and since we are talking about Albanians terms re‑moved, ad‑ded, de‑formed or falsi‑fied...
The Roman Em‑pire was made of op‑pression, tax, cruci‑fixion, torture, crushing, per‑versity, slavery and circus game, the Semitic be‑lieve (Hebrew, Aramaic, Arab) have bring to them the com‑passion, forgive‑ness, love of the neighbor, altruism, Moses laws & Messianic Christianity, and the be‑lieve in one unique god re‑veled by the pro‑phets, if you re‑ject that and say that the only the Roman or Greek have made the basis of Evr‑ope you are lying, I'm sure that the German, Polish, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish & Slavic (ex‑cept Russian) use very little Latin words in their languages (and they are very ad‑vanced)... Only France, England, Italy, Spain, Romania, Albania, Portugal (and their colonies) are really using it, but if you are a real Shqyptar, then you will pre‑fer to use our unique word from the Illyrian / Thracian era, than those of Roman or Greeks (so it is why I don't under‑stand why in our time lot of new Latin & Greek word were ad‑ded in Standard Shqip & the Ottoman one re‑moved in the of‑ficial dictionary)...
I love the faith and I be‑lieve in one God, and I re‑spect the Altaic, Semitic, Persian, Bulgarian culture, I don't re‑ject it and in Shkup we still use their words, like the Greek or Latin one... And that is all...
You say "Con‑trary to what you de‑clare, it clearly shows that you identi‑fy your‑self first of all as a mu‑slim, then as an as an Albanian (proving my point)", well at home I speak Shqyp and all my family is Arbanian, and some of them, have grown in the com‑munist era so they don't like any re‑ligions at all... I don't speak semitic Arab/Hebrew (I just know some words) or Turkish (but my mother, grand‑mothers & grand‑fathers knowned it living in Ottoman Em‑pire), but yes I'm a be‑liever, and God is up‑on any nationality... But that doesn't change nothing, about my origins, I'm really an Shqyptar, and even if you are an a‑theist or a Christian ortho‑dox or cath‑olics that doesn't make you a more real Shqyptarian, Arbanian, Albanian or Illyrian than me, be‑cause at the origin they were probably poly‑theist... The pro‑blem is how you de‑fine an Illyrian (-800 BC), an Albanian (150 AD), an Arbanian / Arvanian / Arbarian (1190 AD), an Shqyptar (1700 AD), an Gheg & an Tosk... Being an Gheg Shqyptar bring to me 10.000.000 of com‑patriot, being a be‑liever bring to me 3.000.000.000 of brothers & sisters in the faiths sharing com‑mon value & one unique & same God, be‑cause i‑slam con‑sider the Jehudi יהודי / يهودي, Nasariנוצרי / نصراني & Mu‑slims as "Peoples of the Book" & brother / sisters in the same unique faith, even if there is some di‑vergence, schism & con‑frontation...
You say that "Ottoman tyranny on the Balkans who did ab‑solutely NOTHING to en‑hance the culture and the spirit of the dominated people" this is un‑true and by saying that you don't under‑stand the purity, morality & the nobility of the faith that they had (and that may‑be they didn't cor‑rectly ap‑plied), and that lot of Gheg share hence‑forth, if you had study this re‑ligion and the rêmggy رحمجي (mercy), com‑paθsion, giving value that she have, you will not talk like that, but you seem to not com‑pre‑hend it at all... If they were able to main‑tain their huge em‑pire in Evr‑ope, Middle‑East, North‑Africa 500 years, prove their dominating in‑tel‑ligence, don't forgot that the Ottoman were Turko‑Tataro‑Mongol of the tribes of Genghis Khan, who even had an older Em‑pire started in 1206...
War al‑ways ex‑isted and this no‑body can do nothing about it. The stronger wins (this is the law of jungle) and we Illyrian were weak against the Hellenic Em‑pire, Roman Em‑pire, Bulgarian Em‑pire, Ottoman Em‑pire, that's all, but I don't hate these em‑pire for that, every one have bring some‑thing to us, and I ac‑cept all of them and not re‑ject some of them... But why de‑fending the Romans ? That is some‑thing I don't under‑stand.
You say the Ottoman don't al‑lowed you to speak Shqyp, very strange be‑cause the languages still ex‑ist and even the Gheg mu‑slims still use it (whereas the Tosk have de‑formed & falsi‑fied it even if they were Ortho‑dox or Cath‑olics, so I‑slam & Ottoman as nothing to do in this), Albania was only a little pro‑vince of the Ottoman Em‑pire and I don't be‑lieve that they have forbid the Arabs under their dominion in the middle‑east or Maghreb to not speak & learn their language in private & at home or even the Shqyptar in south‑Evr‑ope (be‑cause they can't con‑trol all of us, all the time, at all locations). The Serbian have forbid the Albanian to speak Shqip at school, uni‑versity & state‑jobs in Kosovo. I'm sure that at the time of Roman & Byzance Em‑pire, the Illyrian were ob‑ligated by force, con‑straint & co‑ercion, to speak Latin/Greek, this is why we still have their word in our mod‑ern language, so don't say the Ottoman were worse than Roman. Even in Africa (& Maghreb), Indo-China, in south‑America & north‑America the native Indian American were forced to speak Portuguese, Spanish, French or English by the colonialists (and I don't talk about the slavery & dis‑criminations that the Christians Cath‑olics & Pro‑testant made there with the Africans & Native Americans until 1964 : Civil Rights Acts & 1954 laws), this is very com‑mon situation that the dominating peoples force the op‑primed to speak their languages, even now the strangers who come to live in America have to speak these languages at works & school, even if they are not their mother‑tongues...
You say at that time 95% were il‑literate, but I live in Belgium and here (and may‑be even in France) going to school is ob‑ligatory & free by state since maximum 130 years (1870 in USA, 1882 in France, the Ottoman Em‑pire dis‑ap‑peared in 1918), and now in 2015 they are more than 10% of an‑alpha‑beta in the state of capital of Evr‑ope. In the past, from medieval to mod‑ern era, lot of peoples & e‑specially women (that even didn't had the right to vote) were an‑alpha‑beta for most of them (women are 53% of population). All states of Evr‑ope had lot of il‑literate peoples at that time, the peasant class didn't had the money to go to school & uni‑versity (only the nobility had the means), it was a global pro‑blem, the Ottoman have nothing to do in that, the first words of the re‑velation of i‑slam by the Angel is אקרא / ܐܰܩܪܝ / اقْرَأْIQRA (Read & Teach), I'm sorry if you don't under‑stand the power‑full cryptic meaning of that (Al‑Qur'anקוראן / ܩܘܪܐܢ / قرآن mean reading or re‑citation, the i‑slam pro‑mote & en‑courage literacy & learning)... In our era, lot of Albanians still pre‑fer to send their kids works with sheeps, on fields or to sell things like cigarettes or chewing‑gum on the street (have seen that with my own eyes), than sending them to school, and the Ottoman are not there any‑more, if they was no state‑law to ob‑ligate the Albanians to send their kids there, they would be many more il‑literates... No they was 95% of an‑alpha‑beta be‑cause they were to poor or lazy and not in‑ter‑ested by any cultures (Semitic, Latin, Greek, Slavic or Germanic)... Also the Evr‑opean culture that you are so proud of, come from middle‑east, the source is Semitic Phoenician & Aramaic Script (e‑volution of proto‑canaanite), that the Greek then Roman taken, the Greek & Latin script come from there and lot of words that you use in Latin / Greek have root from Middle‑Eastern source (Semitic, Egyptian, Caucasian, Mesopotamian, Hindi, Persian)... But there is a con‑spiration from the Western & Eastern Evr‑opean etymo‑logist to hide this verity...
"How can you spontaneously con‑vert to the re‑ligion of an oc‑cupier??" it is very simple in fact, be‑cause it is a faith made up‑on the truth with honorable values, not telling that a man is God (شركShirk, like the Christian say for Iesuo ישוע / ܝܫܘܥ / يسوع, that the Jews & Mu‑slims negate) and telling only God should be venered & re‑vered, if it was as bad as you say, they would not be Mu‑slims from far‑east Asia to far‑western U.S.A...
Lot of French, German & Belgian con‑vert to this faith (be‑cause I read it in Belgian papers be‑cause I live here) and no one is oc‑cupying them or forcing them, this happen be‑cause this book follow the Jewish Semitic be‑lieve and com‑plete it, and be‑cause it is purest mono‑theism, with‑out idols, icons, per‑versions & statues that Greek & Latin worshiped in vain... Don't take only as ex‑ample re‑tarded land like Afghani‑stan or land in war like Iraq to dis‑credit the i‑slam, but take good ex‑ample like Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Qatar, Tunisia, Maroc or Arab‑Emirate, who are very ad‑vanced in their in‑fra‑structure, archi‑tecture, e‑ducation, morality & techno‑logy... I will not talk with you about this any‑more, I see what is your point of view. And I don't share it at all. Mangêzd (talk) 13:42, 12 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
You're justifying domination and tyranny for your religious reasons..you just seem not to have an historical cultural identity of your own, since you're clinging so desperately to the culture of who invaded and kept your country for 4 centuries..it just comments for itself, I have nothing to add to that!! Etimo (talk) 18:11, 17 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
It is what you think, your identity is on the side of the (Ancient‑Greeks), Romans & Byzantine and they were even worse in their actions, per‑versions & be‑lieves than Ottomans. (The re‑ligion of Ottoman that lot of Shqyptar share, is the semitic one, based on Judaism then Messianism but with‑out Saints, Idols, Icons & Statues of Jesus, Maria, pro‑phets & angels...).
I know very well the Greco‑Latin antique cultures & mytho‑logies (be‑cause I use their terms in Shqyp and I live in Belgium since I'm a baby and here we speak French (Greco‑Gallo‑Franco‑Latin language), I readed some book & dictionary about Ancient‑Greek & Latin and I ana‑lyzed & com‑pared the etymo‑logy & roots of these languages as an auto‑didact and I have take course, also I studied the English and I have seen Spanish & Italian media & peoples in my life to know their customs & traditions)...
But in ad‑dition I have the Semitic, I‑slamic, Jewish, Nasari, Slavic, Persian (ZoroastrismManicheismShio'ismشيعة) Hindu/Romi/Ashkali & Ottoman Turkish Altaic (ShamanismAnimism) culture in me... I'm cosmo‑polite, like my Macedonian capital Shkupi (Scupi)...
Don't judge me by saying that I have no identity, my identity is Gheg, Evr‑opean, in‑ter‑national, global & multi‑cultural and not auto‑centered only in Tosk‑Arbarian cath‑olistic, ortho‑doxistic or a‑theistic side... You are not an GJYKAC, ΔΙΚΑΙΟΣ, an IUDICIS, an DICTATOR or an HAKIMחכם / حكيمQADIקאדי / قاضي like God is, to judge me. Don't think you are better than me be‑cause you are not a Mu‑slim or a be‑liever, you are not per‑fect & even not just, equitable & fair at all.
You don't know me at all as a person, so keep these use‑less critics about my Shkupjan Gheg identity that you don't know or don't com‑pre‑hend & under‑stand... I'm not re‑sponsible of the actions of these em‑pires (Persian, Greek, Roman, I‑slamic, Byzantine, Bulgarian, Ottoman), I don't com‑mitted their crimes, op‑pressions, wars or abuses. So I don't have to justi‑fy & blame nothing. It is the past, and I'm looking to the future... But I don't like the meth‑odo‑logy of the (ex‑com‑munist) Shqipërija about re‑moving Gheg, Persian, Turkish & Semitic words in the of‑ficial standard, to put some Latin, Greek and Tosk (falsi‑fied & de‑formed Gheg), this is not the true languages & root of Thraco‑Illyrian & old Albania.
In fact Shqipërija (in 1969 & after) choosed to sub‑mit her‑self to his real & ancient neighbors op‑pressors, and Shqipëria choosed to be hypo‑crites against the cultures of Middle‑east (Semito‑Persian) & Asia (Altaico‑Turko‑Mongol). I'm on the side of truth‑full Shqyp‑nia Arbania & Albania, not on the false & fake Shqipërija Arbaria & Albaria...
The Shqipëri & in parti‑cular the Tosks com‑munists rulers made laws to forbid the use of Gheg & even con‑demned & tortured it's own peoples for reading & sharing Ghegs books and for speaking it, by sending them to prisons or may‑be by e‑rasing them... They were even worse than Ottoman for the Ghegs cultures (Read the "Sub‑human" post of 06-22-2014, 05:52 PM)...
About il‑literacy of 95% I'm sure that this statistic is based & calculated only up‑on how many could read the Latin Cath‑olic or Greek Ortho‑dox Script : 90% of an‑alpha‑beta (85% in English Wikipedia), I'm sure that at the time of Ottoman Em‑pire lot of Gheg & Tosk Mu‑slims knew the Ottoman‑Arabic‑script and in a more great pro‑portion, like 30% to 40%. (The Cor'anקוראן / قرآن mean reading or re‑citation, the i‑slam pro‑mote & en‑courage literacy & learning)... And Albanians had the right to go to ancient & magni‑ficent city of I‑st‧an‑bul (Côn‑st‧ant‑inou‑polis) in Turkish schools & uni‑versities. Also lot of Arbanians had good positions in the states structures, like Pasha, Generals and Begs, so no for me the Ottomans did not dis‑criminate the Albanians, but only those who were violently against them and a against the peace...
I'm not "clinging so de‑sperately to the culture of who in‑vaded and kept your country for 4 centuries" be‑cause first I still speak Shqyp (but with some Ottoman (Persian, Semitic, Turkish), Slavic words in ex‑tra) and this Semitic (Obritian עברית / عبريبر & Orbitian ערבית & عربي) i‑slamic (Uni‑versal re‑ligions of the Peace : Selam שלום / ܣܰܠܶܩܫܠܶܡ / سلم) be‑lieve & cultures is in my country since 2500 years, first by the use of semitic Phoenician Aramaic script (of the Torah) that the ancient‑Greek & Etruscan (Roman) taken to write their own languages. Then by Semitic Aramaic Messianism & Christianity since 1900 years. And the Abraham re‑ligion I have is 4000 years old... I'm not clinging to the culture of the in‑vader who arrived in Albania 1415, this culture is now an in‑tegrated part of Gheg cultures for over 400~300 years and since 2500/1900 years, and when I'm born it was al‑ready my ancestors culture...
Mu‑slims Albanians from Shqyp‑nija (57%, the French Wikipedia say 86,64%, 2,5 millions up‑on a total of 3,1 millions habitants), Kosovo (95%), Macedonia (30%, 25% of total population is Albanian), Monte‑negro (15%, 5% of total population is Albanian), merged together are 80% of all Albanity (and I don't count the Turkish Albanian who are probably at 90% mu‑slims), and we are real Albanians, we speak it and if you want to tell the con‑trary I think you should meditate twice be‑fore saying such think in front of us... In fact peoples like you are the minority of the mod‑ern & actual Albanian cultures. You are not re‑pre‑sentative at all... In fact we are the real Arbanians who held the land and did not flee be‑fore the ad‑versary, like the ARBËRESH (they fled to Italia be‑cause they con‑sider them‑self more as Romans & Latins de‑scendants than real Illyrians / Thracian (even their name is fake Arber instead of original Arben)... In‑deed, we (the real TRIMAT) stayed & keeped our land using the i‑slamic law‑full meth‑od of Taqijaتقیة(“Pious”) by using & learning our language hidden & in secret...
Lot of Albanians have chosen to live in Turkey after the end of Ottoman em‑pire to flee from the per‑secution of the Greeks & Slaves Ortho‑dox after the first world war, and after the second world‑war to flee the eastern Evr‑ope com‑munism that forbid the re‑ligions, if the Ottomans Em‑pire & the demo‑cratic state of Turkey (of Atatürk) were so bad & evil for Albania, why these true Albanians (Tosk & Gheg mu‑slims) have chosen to live there with them ??? If I be‑lieve what I read, they are 3 millions of Albanian in Turkey or 1,3 millions in English wikipedia, here in a other wikipedia English page 5.000.000 and in Albanian wikipedia 8.470.954,95 in 1990 = 15% of 56.473.033.
Who say the truth I don't know. But if I be‑lieve what my father say, they are more Albanians in Turkey than in Shqipëri, Macedonia, Montenegro, Kosova, Greece & Italia to‑gether...
Even the Serbians, who are more anti‑i‑slam & anti‑Ottoman than you are, be‑cause they even tried in end of the twentieth century to make a geno‑cide against Albanian & Bosnian (and cath‑olic Croatian), to clean the Ottoman & Latin in‑fluence from the self‑called "Slavic Great Serbia", are still using lot of Persian, Arabic & Turkish (Ottoman) terms in the Serbo‑Croatian languages, and even more than the of‑ficial "Standard Shqip" made by the a‑theist Tosk com‑munist team of Enver Hoxha after 1969...
The Serbo‑Bosniaco‑Monte‑negro‑Croatians don't re‑ject these languages, they ad‑d them to their mother‑tongue (proto‑slavic) to en‑hance & ex‑pand their way to ex‑press them‑self.
This Serbo‑Croatian (made of lot of) ethnicities was the of‑ficial languages of Yugo‑slavia & of‑ficial languages of actual Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia & Monte‑negro (Macedonia use it to but they have a di‑stinct dia‑lect).
If you know only one terms you can't truly ex‑press your‑self, by ad‑ding terms & words in your vocabulary, you en‑rich your know‑ledge, in‑tel‑ligence & com‑pre‑hension and your possibility to ex‑press your thinking with more pre‑cision, variation & di‑versity. Using these terms is a rich‑ness not a ethnic identity loss.
You are clinging & stagnating to the culture of Greco‑Romano‑Byzantine that in‑vaded your Illyrian Thracian land 2000 years ago...
You al‑ready loosed your Albanian Illyrian / Thracian identity by be‑coming a part of Roman then Byzantine em‑pire and by choosing the name Shqipëri (ana‑gram of S.P.Q.R and homo‑nym of SCIP‧IO & EX‑CIP‧IÔ {SHQIP‧ÔJ}) in‑stead of original Gheg pro‑nunciation : "Shqyp & Shqyp‑ni", look at the ancient Gheg pro‑nunciation of Shqyptar Shqyponj, it is from Ancient‑Greek ὨϘΥ‑ΠΤΕΡΟΣ & mod‑ern Tosk version of Shqipëtar Shqiponja / Skifter from Latin AD‑CIP‧ITER & EX‑CIP‧ERE, there is no link with Illyro‑Thracian cultures any‑more, the AQVILA in our flag is the sym‑bol of Roman and sub‑ordination & sub‑mission to the Roman & Holy Roman/German → GeRoman Em‑pire, even the term Shqyp & Shqyp‑ni have root from SHKUPI and SCUPI (ac‑cording to Petar Skok)... The Shkupjan are the real sources of the mod‑ern Albanian culture... Mangêzd (talk) 01:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Please stop clogging my message page with walls and walls of your personal religious rants..I told you what I think and your answer just further confirms my point of view..you can be whatever you want, a Semite, a neo-Ottoman, Persian or a citizen of the world, and follow whatever religion that pleases you, it's your choice, but as I told you, we have two diammetrically opposed ideas of Albanian history and language and above all, what Albania was/is/and will be...and I'm really not interested in being lectured on history and linguistics. Again, this conversation stops here, thank you!!! Etimo (talk) 18:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
But I must ad‑d this : be‑cause of these re‑ligious rants & reasons and be‑cause they are so many messianists משיחי & مسيحي & mu-slims מוּ‑שלם & م‑سلم in Albanity, I think that the Tosk com‑munist a‑theist rulers who made & pro‑moted the standard (Tosk) in 1969 didn't had the right to re‑move the Semitic com‑mon Obritian עברית / عبري & Orbitian ערבית / عربي terms from Ottoman & Christiano‑Byzantine era in our languages and they didn't had the rights to ab‑olish & sup‑press the Gheg dia‑lect.
After making search about what you said and that I didn't knew, I ad‑mit that the Ottoman rulers were rough with our nation. They didn't ap‑plied & re‑spected the true & real pre‑cepts of i‑slam (peace & paci‑fism) of Mu‑Ħamed S.A.V.S, like :
Ah you did some research now and you're able to answer!! And how objective do you think you are when you talk about things you don't even have a clue about? Can't you see how ridiculous the things you say are? No matter what you say, again, you confirm my point of view (which is also the point of view of every historian): Islam was embraced only through social cohertion and violence and it is absolutely foreign to true Albanian culture and nature and every Albanian who has a minimum of identity and dignity understands that quite easily. Unfortunately Albanians from Kosovo and Macedonia, like yourself, have completely lost their Albanian European identity as you all are under the absoulte rule and propaganda of Saudi Arabia and Turkey, who have turned you in obedient soldiers of Islam for their political purposes. It's no surprise that Kosovo and Macedonia have the higher number of jihadist and throat-cutters fighting in Syria compared to their population. The sad thing about Albanians like yourself is that you don't event understand it, you're blind, cause this is everything you've ever known in your life!! You simply don't know true Albanism, you only know an oriental surrogate of it! Instead of trying to rebuild your destroyed Albanian-European identity, traditions and language, you want to keep mixing it, you rejoy of the Ottoman era and religion. That's hopeless and shameful beyond any limit! That's called the philosophy of slavery (Kadare), a person that is afraid of being free because it has forgotten what he was. This kind of person does not deserve freedom, cause he's born a slave and he enjoys it!! I had to answer one last time, your grotesque point of view and deformation of Albanian identity exceeds every possible understanding. Now you know that we have absoultely different point of views, so there's no point in debating any further! Etimo (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Mir‑dita, I only agree with you about the law of Abdül‑hamid First, that's all, (again only French Wikipedia talk about that law, based up‑on an un‑sure Greek source of 14 août 1999, the Wikipedia English & Albanian don't mention that), all my arguments about il‑literacy and other things are real & true.
I'm not sure of what your are talking, it is crap, be‑cause I don't loosed my Albanian Evropean culture since I still use the language of my Gheg ante‑cestor (with Illyrian, Latin, Greek words in‑side) and not the fake one of the Tosk (Standard)...
For you al‑i‑slam ال‑إ‑سلام (re‑ligion of peace שָׁלוֹם / ܣܰܠܶܩܫܠܶܡ / سلام is a re‑gression, you are totally wrong... You make me pity, with your way of thinking... Truly.
This faith and my arguments & ex‑planation are not ridi‑culous...
80% of honorable (neruar) Albanity can be wrong, as I pre‑viously said above (but I written this com‑ment after so maybe you did not read it), we Ghegs mu‑slims מוּ‑שׂלם / ܐ‑ܣܠܩܡܰ‑ܗܓܪܐ / م‑سلمم‑ثالي (mu‑slm mu‑θali) are the real Albanians TRIMAT who stayed & kept the land, not fleeing in Italia by fear of the Otoman עותמאןתם / تمم, be‑cause in fact, these fleeing cowards were more Latins & Romano‑Byzantin than real Illyrian Albanian...
We don't follow the pro‑paganda (as you say) of Orbia Soudia السعودية (but only the faith of the Orbitian Angels like GABRI'ÊL & the Meccan MU‑ĦAMED A‑Obudda אַעֹבֻּדהאלַאלֵה / أَ‑عْبَّدَ al‑ile אל‑אלה / ال‑إله, the laudable م‑حمد, the last messenger of Abraham ब्राह्म re‑ligion of the unique God essence and the bringer of the de‑scended book of re‑velation who mean reading / re‑citation. If you knew the history you will know that the Kobah כעבה / كعبة was build by the Orbitian Angels for the first Man Adam as a temple for him, the first KOB‧AH was de‑stroy during the flood at the time of Noah, then Abraham re‑build it and lived in that place... Is re‑lic are kept there. After the temple was de‑stroyed again and re‑builded in his Cubic form that we know today, but that place be‑came a poly‑theist, statues & idols ad‑oration place, then the pro‑phet Mu‑Ħamed came & de‑stroyed these use‑less faith and bringed back the true re‑ligion of Adam & Ibrahim, of the unique ever‑lasting creator of the Uni‑verse... Mecca is a saint place for all be‑liever of the Earth... This is Human origin history. And it is very fascinating not ridi‑culous. Orbia Soudia is a new state and only Mecca & Medina in‑ter‑est the mu‑slims all over the world... Not the politic of that re‑cent state.
If you knew better the i‑slam (re‑ligion of the peace) you will know that Shqypθarθ are Hanafitحنفي and not Hanbaliteحنبلي like Arabia Saudia. We have other laws, practices and phonetic letters pro‑nounciation.
I don't think that Orbians (Saudi سعودية, Qatar قطر, Oman عمان, Kuwait كويت, Jordan أردن, U.A.E) who are very wealthy by the grace of God in a hope‑less & desertic place (thanks to under‑ground black‑gold oil), need the people from the poorest land in Evrope (since 90 years Ottoman are not there any‑more so the eco‑nomic situation prove the in‑tel‑ligence of the a‑theist Albanians com‑munist rulers & soviet brain‑washed philo‑sopher thinker like Kadare), still the Orbs give us help to build hospitals but us we never gave them any‑thing (look this com‑parative picture from an Albanian pro‑file in FaceBook)...
Do you really think that the Arabs (Orbitians ערבית / ܥܪܒܝܐ / عربي) have an hidden agenda (like secret‑societies, as the il‑luminati) to con‑quer the world, and really need Albanians to do it ??? This is just stupid & moronic. This Tups‧id orm‧unic faith just want to save our souls not the flesh.
Also at the dif‑ference of the cath‑olic & ortho‑dox who have a strict hier‑archic clergy & de‑signed rulers (Pope, Cardinals, Arch‑bishops, bishops, priests, canons, Deacons, Abbots, Monks) the i‑slam don't have this kind of authority and we don't re‑ceive order from any‑body, we are free to make our choice & to choose the mosque & imam, hodja or mullah that we want to follow, and mine are Albanians who studied in Egypt and the other in Makka & Medina... I don't see what pro‑paganda the Arabs are doing in Macedonia, Kosovo or Albania media... The Saint Coran was written in 647.
Also you seem to forgot that Ottoman (con‑verted Turko‑Mongol) ruled the Arabs to... I don't know why now you speak against the Arabians, since they didn't in‑vade us and never threat & mal‑treated our peoples. You seem to be an anti‑semite which is il‑legal based on the Belgian & the Evropean laws...
I'm not a ob‑oedient soldier (like you say) and I never made any war, and thank God I never had to fight & e‑liminate no one. Again what you say is crap for most of 80% of Albanian mu‑slim (paci‑fist)...
I pre‑fer to be ob‑oedient / audient to God than to a dictator like a‑theist Enver Hoxha or men like you.
It is better to be an Albanian + Arbanian + Orbian : ΟΑΛϜΑΡΒΑΝ Oalvarabanianë + Aramian + Aryan = Oalvarabmanianë עאלורבּנוּיאן / عالۋاربانيان Oalbuddo עאלבּוּדדה from أبُدّي(abuddi)بِ‑هُدّوء(“bi‑huddʰua”)بُدّا(“budda”)بُدّاء(“budaa”)أبُدّع(“budo”)عبُدّ(“obudd”)ببائد(“bbajud”) than a Deb‧il‧is دابب(“dabb”)ددابة(“ddab‧a”) {⊖DB⊖ ↔ ⊕BD⊕} (DEBILIS is not a DE + BEL root but DEB with -ILIS like SIMILIS, AGILIS...).
These Albanians & Macedonians throat‑cutters (as you name them) in Syria are not a big part of us, may‑be 0,01% of all mu‑slim Albanians & Macedonians. But still they are free to de‑cide to make & do war if they want to. It is their free‑dom. I don't need to judge others like you do...
What about mu‑slims foreign fighter who come in Kosovo & Bosnia and who died there to help us (un‑like you) against the Serb army. For us they were heroes & martyrs. And what about U.S fighter who come in Evrope to bombard Serbian or fight the anti‑semitic & anti-slavic Nazi & Fascist. Was these U.S warriors heroes or stupid men ?
Being a fighter, a com‑batant or a warrior is not bad as you seem to think. Why people like Alex‑ander, Aliskender‑beg الإسكندربگ or Adem Jashari are re‑spected by mod‑ern Albanians ? They were fighters and heroes who fought counter the op‑pressors...
All states have military and a de‑fense, even social in‑sect like the ants & termites have a soldier‑class in‑side them, it is some‑thing very natural, even for humans to pro‑tect the weak & young or to fight against the en‑emy...
I'm not blind, I'm awaken बोधि(bodhi)बोधति(bodhati)БУД‧АН, you are blind & your heart is locked to the truth & global reality, and you speak about i‑slam with‑out com‑pre‑hending is real essence (be‑cause you listen the Evropean pro‑paganda against it, i‑slam is not only Afghani‑stan and Syria & Iraq, they are lot of peace‑full mu‑slim states like the Kazakh, Azerbaijan, Malaysian, Moroccan...).
I lived in Belgium and I had French Christian Cath‑olic curriculum e‑ducation there, so I know very well this re‑ligion and his pre‑cepts... I‑slam is not the only think I had in my ex‑istence, you are trying to limit & re‑ducing my person, ex‑perience, culture & know‑ledge with‑out having any clue of my life and my e‑volution & pro‑gression, I think you should shut up...
You are a re‑tro‑grade who limit it‑self to his Romano‑Byzantine history.
I see what languages you know in your user pro‑file and you don't have any com‑pre‑hension of Sêm‧antic Sêm‧itic. I'm studying these languages since 2003 like others re‑ligions, cultures & mytho‑logies and my in‑ter‑pretation of i‑slamic faith is not com‑mon and surely not the same as Hanbalite, but more like Shafi'it... This study & ex‑ploration will finish when I will die...
For me knowing Altaic (Japanese, Korean, Mongol, Turkish), Sêmitic (Obrit, Aramaic, Phoenician, Orbitian, Syriac), Persian, Slavic (Macedonian, Bulgarian, Bosnian), Hindu / Romi / Ashkali is a rich‑ness but for you it is the re‑verse...
I don't want to speak with you any‑more and I don't want to be like you. You are against 80% of your com‑patriots, you are an anti‑mu‑slimo‑albanians & a dis‑be‑liever.
Albanian mu‑slims (peace‑full) are not like you, we re‑spect the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Manicheist Zoroastrians & Buddhists but not the a‑theists who are for i‑slam faith (Coran 8‑55), less than animals (beasts) be‑cause they don't re‑co‑gnize the ex‑istence & laws of the eternal living God creator of all things. Be‑cause they are to brain‑less (like beasts) or vain‑glorious.
I just wanted to talk with you be‑cause you ad‑ded Gheg Albanian terms and be‑cause you are an Shqiptar (but I'm not sure of it)... But now that I know you more deeply I'm really not in‑ter‑ested to be friend & dis‑cuss with you... I have an ad‑vice read the original Otmaman עתמאמןתמםעטוֹםעתםעטםעיט / ܥܛܡܐܥܫܡܐܥܬܡܐ / عتمامانتمامطمن / आत्मन्(ātman)आत्मा(ātmā) Orbitian version of the Qranë i bekum ال‑قرآنال‑بقوم, may be you will learn some‑thing. And you will not talk with‑out know‑ledge. Be‑cause the actual com‑piled Arabian version from Khalif Othmanعثمان era is in dis‑order and not in chrono‑logical order, so some verse ab‑rogating some older one, can't be cor‑rectly com‑pre‑hended and in‑ter‑preted (the real order is findable in in‑ter‑net). In fact these two vords عثمان[otm‑an] invalid IPA characters (‑) & عتمان[oθm‑an] invalid IPA characters (‑) (dark‑ness, θenebra, over‑cast, dull) are mis‑spelled & the pro‑nunciation is in‑verted, this is be‑cause of the mis‑usage of the Qra'atأ‑حرف[a‑ħɛrf] invalid IPA characters (‑)... Only the veri‑dic vedic वेद Ruwana روحانی have the true keys... Mangêzd (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
This Mbret & Mret terms show the real feeling of the old Albanians against the domination of the Roman-Byzantine em‑pire, they say death / die to the mortal Im‑perator... They don't share your thinking about the Romano‑Byzantine era... Mangêzd (talk) 16:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
80% of what you wrote is a distortion, missinterpretation and lack of understanding of what I wrote above..no surprise the animosity! Albanians are not 80% muslims, this is just wishful thinking of a religious fanatic like yourself who, despite the apparently good-willed assertions, doesn't trully respect other faiths..or atheists for that matter (who in Albania simply abound), something that I'm afraid is a hallmark of your religion. I remind you, AGAIN AND FOR THE LAST TIME, that Albanians are historically CHRISTIANS, the EARLIEST ONES IN EUROPE, who embraced Christianity PEACEFULLY by the APOSTOLIC work of St. Paul himself, but who were FORCED to convert to Islam for military, financial, economical and social reasons (and sometimes violence too), with all the well-known drama that ensued. This is no secret and is stated by EVERY serious historians who has written on the matter, and there's nothing you can do to change this, no matter how many verses of the Koran you recite! Now you can flare up as much as you want if Albanians want to return or stick to the history, culture and traditions of their ancestors, but this is the natural process of any sound nation (the wrong understanding of this point, btw, represents also the major hindrance for overcoming modern Albanian social problems)! You shamelessly call the Arberesh less Illyrian, but after 500 years THEY have retained the TRUE Albanian identity, traditions and language unchanged, while here you are, one of those who stayed, a rabid Islamic soldier defending blindly everything Gjergj Kastrioti fought against: protecting Albanian Christian-European culture, identity and independence from assimilation and destruction (physical and spiritual). Well, I'm afraid he didn't succeed with everyone! Saudi Arabia or Turkey don't want to conquer the world, as you banally try to put it, they want to create satellite nations, in order to gain a strong political foothold in Europe!! Can you answer me true Albanian, why do they finance the building of hundreds of mosques and Islamic colleges in Albania and Bosnia in areas of extreme poverty and illiteracy? Because they have the religious situation of Albanians and Bosnians so much at heart? Or because they seek militants like yourself (nothing wrong with being a militant, right?)? Why did the Ottomans before them do the same thing? They had Albanians so at heart to the extend to kill anyone who opened an Albanian book, but hey, not the Koran? What an islamic love right?! Why do imams in Kosovo and Macedonia keep distorting Albanian history and besmear Gjergj Kastrioti, Mother Theresa or any other infedel Christian figure, even saying Ottomans were liberators? Why do they have thousands of Albanian families in Macedonia change their Albanian names into Islamic names (again the Islamic identity vs. native identity). And do me the favor, don't come up with the overhackneyed statement Islam doesn't teach that, because from a national and historical point of view, that's absolutely IRRELEVANT! They could be Buddhists and the result would still be deleterious for Albanians..national alienation! Considering the strategic position of the Balkans and its history, even an 8 year old child understands how Islam was and is being used as a battering ram against Albanians and Bosnians in order to turn them into allied nations! They simply don't care about Albanian identity, they care about militants!!! You call yourself a true Albanian, but is it normal for a true Albanian to distort Albanian history and identity in order to please one's religious delight? But I think you are taking my words too personally, I can assure you that they're not, they are addressed to whatever person who indulges in POLITICAL RELIGION!! I don't know you and even don't want to, you wrote in my page and you began a religious rant which is absolutely out of place with the things we do here: the etymological dictionary of Albanian language. Albanian language, by the way, is an Indoeuropean language and (hey we reinvented the wheel) analysing it means placing it in the linguistic context of the Indoeuropean family. I don't need to study Semitic languages for that, although I don't dislike the idea at all. But your Semitic overzeal prevents you even from understanding this very simple fact. I won't even answer the anti-semitic crap which in recent times has become the trump card played by whoever lacks arguments! You seem an educated person, I'd recommend you use that education to help your fellow countrymen get out from the spiritual darkness their currently galopping into..if it's not afoul with your religion! Hopefully, for the last time, farewell!! Etimo (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
If you read the Wikipedia Statistics about it they are 80% (all link are in my pre‑vious post), you can try to deny it, but that doesn't change the reality... You can say what you want about the past but now we are mu‑slims for most of us...
You say "Why do they have thousands of Albanian families in Macedonia change their Albanian names into I‑slamic names (again the I‑slamic identity vs. native identity)", now, it is you who will de‑cide how your com‑patriots should be named ? If they want to take a Greek, Slav, Indian, Sêmitic or German name, in what it con‑cern you? Humans are free to act as they want and names them‑self how they want, you have a serious pro‑blem with the free‑dom of your fellows. Who do you think you are to say such things ? You say that the Arbëresh kept the original languages but the original is the Ghegs older than Tosks and it is the one that I still use, Gheg Skopje version.
You say "every‑thing Gjergj Kastrioti fought against: pro‑tecting Albanian Christian-Evropean culture, identity and in‑de‑pendence from as‑similation and de‑struction (physical and spiritual)" : do you know the medieval‑thinking of judgement of God ? If some‑one or a nations loose against his en‑emies, it is only the God will, so there is nothing more to ad‑d to this... His end by malaria show that God was not on his side. The op‑pressive rules that the Ottoman taken against Albanians were caused by these act of re‑bellions and be‑trayal (like Aliskender‑Beg) against their authority... In any states of the world, if you try to fight with weapons against the state you are punished (killed or ar‑rested) by the police, military & justice... All nations do that, not only the Ottoman.
For 500 years God was on their side, then for a reason that I don't know (may‑be not enough faith, good actions or un‑justice) he has left them a‑side...
You say "PEACE‑FULLY by the APO‑STOLIC work of St. Paul him‑self", I'm not sure that lot peoples have been con‑verted by this manner (in 312, 4 à 5 % of the em‑pire population was Christians), but more likely con‑verted by ob‑ligation when the Roman Em‑pire de‑cided to make it his of‑ficial re‑ligion in 380. As I know the Romans and their taste for tortures, circus‑games & cruci‑fixions, I'm sure that lot of peoples con‑verted them‑self just by fear and co‑ercion... And this torture meth‑odo‑logy lasted in medieval time until the French re‑volution of the "Lumière"... The in‑quisition, colonialism (in Africa & America) and crusade a good ex‑ample of what can do the Roman‑Christianity... Burning peoples for just saying that they are sorcerers & witches or Jews and torturing them by lot of meth‑od to have false re‑co‑gnition of crimes... You speak like if the Western‑Evropean & Christians were very peace‑fully, nice & gentle peoples with very good practicals, you totally forgot that they were in wars among them‑self and counter the middle‑east, you forgot that the rights of Humans are some‑thing very new in fact (im‑posed in Evrope after second world‑war) and came from the French re‑volution in 17th century... During middle age the populations were brutals, rudes, bestials, primitives, dirty, water was con‑sidered as a source of dis‑ease so they didn't wash them‑self (sewers and latrines had fallen into dis‑use), see the ravage of the pest, whereas the mu‑slims at that time washed them‑self 5 times a day for praying AV‑DES... In medieval time, the western Evropean nobility urinated & de‑fecated in any place of their castles be‑cause they didn't had toilets), even the Antic‑Pagan‑Romans were cleaner than them be‑cause of the public & private therma... I wonder why you em‑bellishes medieval‑era and the Evropeans of that time...
My faith is sincere & real like the faith of Mother Theresa that you can't criticize... The Messianist & Nasari (Christian) faith have same pro‑phets and same Semitic origin than I‑slam of Isma‑el, brother of Isaac, the ancestor of Jews. The only thing that i‑slam (like judaism) re‑fuse is to say that Iesuo Oisa is son of God or God him‑self (trinity) {be‑cause like Al‑Qaraan Al‑Karama say he ate & slept} and we re‑ject the Ortho‑dox & Cath‑olic practical of building statues of saints, angels & pro‑phets and icons (who is a pagan rite from poly‑theism era), the mu‑slims be‑lieve in the re‑turn of Iesuo Oisa عيسى at the end of the days... We are not so far of the Messianism משיחי & مسيحي, as you seem to think it, and love is an i‑slamic re‑com‑mendation ال‑ودود...
In the Coran, God through Gabri‑el then Mu‑Ħamed only say "to not take for Lords (not adore) angels & messengers (pro‑phets)" (3‑80 : Al‑qarana ال‑قرآنى / क़र al‑karama ال‑كارمى / करमक्रमकर्म)...
Building mosque is a right granted by the United‑Nations Human rights ‑ Article 18, you can't do any‑thing about it, your way of thinking are same of the Northern‑League of Italia, who re‑fuse this basic right to be‑lievers from foreign states & nations... Also we pay for them so I don't see what is the pro‑blem, if you go to shop and have the money, what will you think if some‑one re‑fuse to let you bought something be‑cause of your be‑lieves ???
Again Coran mean reading and the first term of the re‑velation by the Angel to the pro‑phet is AQRA (read) and the Coran & i‑slam say "be‑came savant" (Coran 3‑79 : French trans‑lation of تُ‑عَلِّمُونَ(tu‑ʕallimūna)), i‑slam don't preach the il‑literacy and stupid‑ness of the humans being... As you seem to think... Don't follow the in‑ter‑pretation of Afghans (shown in pro‑paganda medias) for ex‑ample...
You don't know the roots & the real sense of veri‑dical i‑slam, so don't speak about it...
At con‑trary, I can speak about Christianity be‑cause I have been in Cath‑olic school & I read the Bible (and others books like Rig‑Veda and mytho‑logies) to com‑pre‑hend it, be‑cause Coran say they are books from God, but have been falsi‑fied... I know what are the mis‑take that the Christians are doing by saying thing like Iesuo is son of God (H.C : 5‑18, 5‑75, 5‑116, 6‑100), i‑slam say if he is son of God every‑one are the sons of God (even the planets, stars, galaxy, flowers, animals, trees, etc...) but I can't find the verse, but he ex‑ist (you can look alter‑nate verse like H.C : 10‑18, 19‑35)...
God don't have kids & parents (H.C : 112‑1 to 4) {ORBITIANערבית & عربيORB‧US} he is not like his creatures, he have material, mineral, vegetal, geo‑logical, astral, spectral, bio‑logical, meta‑physical creations (and lot others that I don't know)...
2. Pray 5 times of the day, each time is based up‑on one biblical pro‑phets practices (Salat),
3. Give the charity to the poor (Zakat),
4. Make fast (Ramazan),
5. Make the pilgrim (on foot or with a horse/camel/ass/mule) one time in is life to see the cities of middle‑east (Hadj).
That's all we don't have other ob‑ligations than that, the rest is only in‑ter‑pretation & free‑dom of though & actions...
Also, there is six pillar of the faith, but there is no wikipedia page about it...
Belief in God (Zot ; Al‑ileh) vorthy of veneration & ad‑oration,
Belief in Messengers (all) and Pro‑phets of God,
Belief in all re‑velations and the Coran (God say in Al‑Qarana Ak‑Karma (3‑24, 6‑42) that he sent a messenger to every nations, we must learn their books),
Belief in the ex‑istence of Angels (creation made of light / energy / photon) {and the ex‑istence of the Jjinns / Ginns (Agni / Ignis / Огнь) (creation made of fire / plasma, who knows ex‑actly ???)},
Belief in the Day of Judgement in the Other‑World,
Belief in the pre‑de‑stination (de‑stiny is writed be‑fore the birth and is known & de‑cided only by God)
You say "which is ab‑solutely out of place with the things we do here: the etymo‑logical dictionary of Albanian language", it is not true be‑cause Mu‑slim & Ottoman era Albanian words (of Persian, Turkish, Semitic, Slavic origin) are real & ex‑isting and should be ad‑ded there, and our term have root from these languages even if you think the con‑trary, but Proto‑Albanian theorist con‑spirationist are hiding this truth. So we can talk about it... (Persian were an em‑pire with very com‑plicated cunei‑form script when in west Evr‑ope most of the tribes were savage and an‑alpha‑beta)
I can't bring peoples from dark‑ness to light and pre‑vent them from fire (UR‧Ô / UaR / WaR). Only those who want to seek the truth can do this by their own search, learning & mental will. Lot of peoples pre‑fer to stay in the ob‑scure & i‑gnorant side of life, be‑cause they are only at‑tracted by earth & by the physical world and are not in‑ter‑ested by the astral & spectral reality... Mangêzd (talk) 19:48, 24 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I re‑puted back the dis‑cussion be‑cause I was editing a re‑sponse to your word about Saint Paul, when I noticed after "Saving page" that you e‑rased all the con‑versation & all my ex‑planations...
Why do you censure dis‑cussion, do you always re‑act like this ? This is very anti‑free‑dom of speak & ex‑pression, and dictatorial way of doing... Mangêzd (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
This is my talk page and I discuss issues on Albanian language!! I have already made myself clear and I have neither the will nor the time to be further dragged in nonsensical religious debates. I have answered you more than I had to. Now stop writing me about religious issues or I will report you at once! Thank you! Etimo (talk) 09:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ok, I don't see why you should re‑port me for just re‑sponding to your out‑rageous false al‑legations about the i‑slam, the actual Ghegs identity & cultures, the Arabs, the Ottomans and terms origins & re‑movals in Standard Shqip... You are threatening me for using my law‑full & right‑full free‑dom of tough & speech U.S First Amendment and U.N Human Right article 18 & 19. But by censuring & de‑leting our dis‑cussion you show you real dis‑simulator un‑trans‑igent un‑tolerant nature of pro‑Romano‑Byzantine anti‑Turko‑Perso‑Arabs and anti‑Albanian mu‑slims. At least have the courage of your opinions by keeping them public. I will not talk with you about this any‑more, so don't re‑spond to this re‑ply... Good bye, ditën e mir, Zoti të rujt. Mangêzd (talk) 10:20, 25 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Truth sometimes is outrageous, I know, but someone has to say it! It hurts you because you understand NOTHING of Turkish and Saudi Arabian politics in the Balkan and neither about Albanian history and culture in general! I deleted the conversation not because of censorship, but AGAIN, because this is an etymological dictionary which discusses linguistic issues, not religious ones, and I have absolutely no intention to clog my talk page with your islamic propaganda and verses of Kuran!!! You dragged me into a religious discussion (as I've noted many Albanian muslims like to do no matter the context) disguised as a linguistic one, and I replied you, as I always do with everyone. This is no place for preaching religion. I repeat it for the last time (this time for real): your views on Albanian language, culture and identity are totally unscientific, unreal and distorted through the religious loop you see it. This simple fact is backed by Albanology itself! Nice talking to you Etimo (talk) 13:42, 25 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
What you say is not the truth so it is not hurting me at all, I'm sad for you that you think like that with‑out com‑pre‑hending the real meaning, origin, sense of this holy book (your Pseudo‑nym (false‑name) is Etimo from Greek Vet‧um‧on (true‑sense‑ness) so try to ac‑cept the Ħaqiqat حقيقة[1] of my ex‑planations... My nick is Nemzag in‑version of Gazmen, my real name, simple no ? Does it sound Albanian for you or no ?).
My view of Albanians is based on our era, not the one of nost‑algic of pre‑ottoman عَثْمَانْ(ʕaṯmān)طمنआत्मन्(ātman)आत्मा(ātmā) era... You should ac‑cept that the biggest part of the Shqyptars are now very dif‑ferents of the Albanian of Pagan Roman era & of the Arbanian of Ortho‑dox Byzantine era...
I'm not in‑ter‑ested by the politics, be‑cause really that doesn't af‑fect my every‑day life and all states from Asia, America, Evrope, Russia are doing the same in Albania (than Turks or Arabs. All have their own ob‑jectives, agenda & in‑ter‑ests)... I have an ad‑vice for you, don't be against mod‑ern demo‑cratic Turkey & Arab‑states (who never done any‑thing wrong to Albania) like you are, living with hate is not a good way of being... Why do you not speak about Italian in‑vasion of Albania in 1939 ? Do you think that the Shqyptärat & Kosovärat are Italians sub‑ordinate or sub‑mitted to Latin & Roman will and de‑pendant to them ? We don't need the in‑fluence, in‑sinuation, in‑ter‑vention or pro‑tection of Italia, France, España, Deutsch‑land, Russia or England em‑pire. We want the PA‑VARSI and the rules of the Human Rights of the United‑Nations organisation...
You talk about old Arbarians and that they were nazarenesנוֹצְרִי / نصراني and things like that, but you are not a true & real messianist משיחי / مسيحي be‑cause Iesuo said : Matthew 22:36 to 39 : "Teacher, which is the greatest com‑mandment in the Law?", "Jesus re‑plied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." ; "This is the first and greatest com‑mandment.", "And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as your‑self.". Even when it was killed on the cross he forgave his legion ex‑secutioners, but you, you hate your neighbours (Turks, Arabs, Persians and maybe Slaves), and even your own com‑patriots just be‑cause they are mu‑slims. The new generations of these nations have done nothing wrong to you and Albania... You should open your eyes about what is hypo‑crisy ("under‑judgement") and about the reality of what was Evr‑ope during medieval‑time...
You say "They could be Buddʰists and the re‑sult would still be deleterious for Albanians", I know what you are, you are an isolationist and anti‑foreign‑cultures. For you en‑lightened peoples like the prince Buddʰa (who faith is the most paci‑fic بِ‑هُدّوء(“bi‑huddʰua”)) can't be followed be‑cause he is not Albanian. Are you waiting for an Albanian re‑volutionary pro‑phet or re‑velations ? This will never come...
Also, can you tell me what Albania pro‑duce ? We don't have our own cars (like Zastava, Ford, Opel, Fiat), no own bikes, no own choppers, no own tanks, no own cruisers, no own tools, no own electronics de‑vices, no own soft‑wares, no own spiritual sacred books, no own planes, nothing (even from pre‑ottoman times). If you re‑ject the techno‑logies & know‑ledges (spiritual or scienti‑fic) from others nations like Altaic (Panasonic, Sony, Samsung), or Germans (Bosch, Mercedes, Opel) or English (Intel, Apple, Microsoft), be‑cause they are not Albanians you will live like 600 years be‑fore...
Me, I ac‑cept & ad‑mits that others nations are more better & in‑tel‑ligent than us, in the spiritual side like the Hindu, Buddhist & Arabs and on techno‑logical side like French, Germans, Americans, Russians, Korean & Japanese... I don't com‑pre‑hend your con‑ceited & vain‑glorious Shqiptar clanistic tribalistic sectarism. There is no‑thing in the past of Arbëria (be‑tween 400 to 1400) to be proud of. Ditën e mir. Mangêzd (talk) 19:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
You forgot that in the past, each cities, then pro‑vinces, then states, then nations, then em‑pires of Evrope were always in war against each others, even if they were Christians (Ortho‑dox, Cath‑olic, then Pro‑testant against Rome & Athens like the Lutheran (German) or Calvinist (English)), Christianity never brought the peace in the con‑tinent at that time (from antiquity to modern‑era), the reason was to strong tribalism & clanism thoughts. Look how the nobility (Kings, Dukes, Lords, Counts, Barons) fought against rulers, members of their own families to gain their lands... Only the Human Rights of the Lumières era have bring peace on actual Evrope, our union ap‑ply these rules ad‑mitted by the United‑Nations (since few years after the end of second world‑war). Etimo read the history better... You have a very re‑stricted view on all of this matter... Good day. Mangêzd (talk) 10:35, 26 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
This is not the truth, this is your narrow & skimpy own version of the truth, based on your own limited and not global in‑ter‑pretation of histories and actual Albanians reality. Again you e‑rased my answer & arguments, to keep just your racist & para‑noiacpsychosis re‑sponse... You are the most un‑pleasant Arbaric / Arbëresh that I ever met in my life... You even not allow me to ex‑press my‑self, Wiktionary is not only an (Etimo) "etymo‑logical dictionary" but an in‑ter‑national uni‑versal dictionary, all terms are ac‑cepted from any nations & cultures, from any one (who have sources), so we can dis‑cuss in Talk‑Pages (who are open to any‑one) about every‑thing, even Albanian terms with foreign re‑ligions origins. But you say no, you re‑fuse terms from Altaic, Persian, Slavic, Semitic origin even if the actual mu‑slims Albanians uses them in Kosovo, Macedonia, Monte‑negro and north of Albania in the un‑standard shqyp, con‑trari‑wise you only ac‑cept Greek & Latin, be‑cause in fact you are living in the past (600 ago) and you have the same way of thinking than the a‑theist Tosk com‑munist who made the standard in 1969. For me you are not an pro‑gredsist IllyrianAlbanian Shqyptar but a re‑tro‑grad Scipio Romano‑Byzantine. And to‑day, as I said be‑fore, you and your tribe & clan are the minority of the actual Albanians i‑slamized cultures. All others Albanians tribes & clans can't be wrong and you only right. You can't re‑ject us or an‑nihilate our cultures & (mu‑slim Gheg) languages, by trying to e‑rase or de‑leting it. This is not demo‑cratic, multi‑partic & humanistic, but only Censor & Dictator‑ship like Enver Hoxha was.
@Nemzag, please stop bothering Etimo. It is unacceptable to write such abusive statements against another editor. If you cannot communicate with Etimo in a polite and friendly way, then do not contact him at all. Other editors are complaining about your insulting manner towards Etimo, so you have to stop now. —Stephen(Talk)05:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, Stephen, he started to speak bad against me, I was talking about phonetic of the Ghegs version, and terms removal & additions in the standard (Orthodox Tosk), and he begin to talk bad about the Ottoman/Turk era, and then about my identity saying stupid things like I don't have one, after he begin to insult my faith, after he started to talk bad about Arabs (who never invaded Albanian and who were under the rules of Turko‑mongol 670 years) and others thing who are not true... At the end of the conversation he was saying that we can't talk about religion...
I don't need to talk with him, I don't need this racist guy, he is not an Illyro‑Thracian Gheg Albanian Macedonian cosmopolitan like me interested by all majors cultures (Hindi, Persian, Greek, Slavic, Germano‑England, Latin, Altaic, Semitic, American, Evr‑opean, Asiatic), but a Latin Roman Arbëresh... With very restricted idea about what is the actual reality of modern Albanity in Kosovo, Montenegro, Macedonia & North Albania. In fact he don't like us because we are not Chesartian Christian ortho‑dox, but as I written Jesus said (Mathew 22:36 to 39 : "And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as your‑self." and him hate is neighbour (even his compatriots because they have others religions, even if they are Buddhist or Hindu), so for me he is even not a real Christian Messianist Nazarene because he don't live with love for his neighbour but with hate... Again he erased my response...
I written many time to him in English & Albanian that I will not re‑spond to his post any more and that I don't want to be friend with him, but he al‑ways added a ag‑gressive & in‑sulting re‑sponse, I was ob‑ligated to an‑swer and re‑stablish the truth... But I don't like his way of e‑rasing dis‑cussion, that he started, for keeping his last racist & para‑noiac re‑sponse (Arabs & Turks politic in Albania, who surely is better than isolationism & communism), I said all states of the world (Evropean, Asian, Hindu, Russian) are doing the same in Albania (look how Italia invaded us in 1939), all have their own in‑terests...
For him we (Albanian, Kosovar & Macedonian) are throat cutter and ob‑oedient soldier of God, read his post, I'm sorry but I never cut the throat of no one and never make any war, and surely 99% of us doesn't are... I will not talk with him any‑more as I written in Shqyp : "Lamtumirë, mosëm fol mã edhe kurr skam me fol mã me ty" (Farewell, don't talk with me anymore, and never I will talk with again")...
Sorry but I'm not going to let him in‑sult my Ghegs identity & my ancestors, or the Turks, antique Persians and Arabs & Hebrews, he don't know the real history and the fact that the Romans & Byzantine were the real op‑pressor of all Evr‑opean tribes (Germanic, Greek, Gaulish, Breton, Celts, Alemanni, Illyrian, Thracian, Semitic, Slavic) during antiquity (Roman‑Em‑pire) to middle age (Byzantine em‑pire)... All of these tribes had suf‑fer be‑cause of their rules (I sug‑gested to him to play Total War: Rome & Rome 2 to see who were the op‑pressors), but for him only the Ottoman (con‑verted Turko‑mongol of Genghis Khan) are bad be‑cause in fact, they beated the Romano‑Byzantine empire...
I don't share his view of history, be‑cause for me the Latin Romans were cruel with circus games, slavery sy‑stems, tax and crucifixions sy‑stems... If he don't know the mod‑ern & ancient antique & middle‑age reality, then he better need to not start talking about this and about re‑ligions, that he don't com‑pre‑hend, and a Sêmitic language that he don't know at all...
You say "Other editors are com‑plaining about your in‑sulting", I never in‑sulted him, I said he is un‑pleasant to see how he censure all my re‑sponses (arguments & ex‑planations), not re‑specting the simple U.N & U.S law of freedom of speech. That he is not a pro‑gressist like the Ghegs are (ad‑ding foreign words to mother‑tongue), but a re‑tro‑grade who live 600 years ago (be‑fore the im‑plementation of Turko‑mongolo‑Perso‑Semitic cultures of the Ottoman) not seeing the actual Albanian reality (75% mu‑slims), and that he is an un‑transigent & un‑tolerant man who is the true based on his words... For him only Romano‑Byzantine de‑serve in‑terest, I don't agree with him... All cultures are in‑teresting.
I'm sorry Stephen, but he in‑sulted me first. I don't know why others editors are taking his de‑fences, when I see a all the ridiculous & racists thing he said. But surely these are racists or pro‑romans to... Our Albanians in‑ternal af‑fairs don't con‑cern them at all. Good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 10:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
@Etimo, after some search and con‑tacting the ambassador of Turkey in France (to ask if it is true that there is not any school in Albanian in Turkey), they re‑sponded this, public school are in Turkish but minority can have private schools in others languages, here is a list of 87 Albanian school just in I‑st‧an‑bul... My uncle was wrong when he told me that there is no school at all, and you can't see how modern Turkey is demo‑cratic & friendly with us...
I don't understand why you are against Turkish politic since they are in N.A.T.O from more time than Shqypnija and are our ally, also they want to enter in C.E.E & E.U.
For me now they are ally and my brothers & sisters in the same peace‑full faith. This is the magic of our re‑ligion, old ad‑versary became a family...
Mangêzd (talk) 14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
Mirdita, Etimo, po sho se do er, pi shton "reference" prej Bardhyl Demiraj, a e ki at libër në "PDF", a ekziston variant Anglisht i asaj libër, a veç Gjermanisht ? A e nje ni "link" ? Faliminerës... Mangêzd (talk) 08:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Po me vje keq amã qat faq i perdor proto-albanian, shka e ka imagjinu Rusi Israiljan Vladimiri Oreli, nuk i besoj ato menime, e sdu mi përdor... Kam nevoj për link prej etimo-log shqyptar, prej Shqypnijës, Makedonijës, Malit Zi, a Kosovës... Mangêzd (talk) 20:24, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Po sho se shpesh pi vnon flajt Gegnisht në "Alternative forms", a ki ni fjalor i vjetër a ni link për "reference" ?
E kam ble ni libër prej Greqiës "ΤΣΟΠΑΝΗΣ ΚΩΝΣΤΑΝΤΙΝΟΣ : ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΙΚΟ ΛΕΞΙΚΟ", a ty i kam gjet në Biblio‑grafi ni libër i vjetër Shkodrës (Fialuur i voghel Sccyp e ltinisct (Small Dictionary of Albanian and Latin), page 1, by P. Jak Junkut, 1895, Sckoder), me fjalt Geg, amã asnji fjal me C [ts] spo sho në tã, e shum çera mungojn... Libra çera shka jan në "reference" si kam gjet në ARCHIVE.ORG, e kam ni fjalor çe thirët "DICTIONARIVM LATINO EPIROSTICVM 1635" e kam gjet ktũ, po kërkoj fjalor vjetër me shkrim Arvanite (Grekisht) me përkthim Latinisht, edhe Gheg me shkrim Arabisht me përkthim latinisht, a ekzistojnë ato librat ? A kan shkru libra komparative Shoqëri e të shtypurit shkronjavet shqip a dikush çetër ? A din dishka ? Mangêzd (talk) 10:07, 12 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago19 comments5 people in discussion
Hi, Stephen, I read in my 2011 page, that Vahag blocked me for the seventh time, why he say that, I counted in my previous page, I was blocked one time by Ruakh (3 day) in 2008 & one time by Ivan Štambuk in 2009 (1 month)... So the block from Vahag is the third, why he say seven time ? Good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 03:06 9 June 2015 (UTC)
This user has been blocked previously. The block log is provided below for reference:
05:41, 9 March 2011 Vahagn Petrosyan blocked Nemzag with an expiry time of 6 months (adding crazy etymologies. shorter terms do not seem to help)
11:08, 5 December 2010 Mglovesfun blocked Nemzag with an expiry time of 10 minutes (Stupidity)
22:08, 8 May 2010 Atelaes blocked Nemzag with an expiry time of 1 month (So we get a month off from reverting their edits)
21:13, 13 November 2009 Ivan Štambuk blocked Nemzag with an expiry time of 1 month (deliberately adding fake etymologies)
03:21, 10 March 2009 Atelaes blocked Nemzag with an expiry time of 1 week (Making garbage edits)
00:06, 15 October 2008 Ruakh unblocked Nemzag (seems to have gotten in touch with Stephen; hopefully will be more responsive now. (three days was probably too long, anyway.))
15:52, 14 October 2008 Ruakh blocked Nemzag with an expiry time of 3 days (Inserting false information: not responding to talk-page inquiries)
Ok thank for in‑formation, it's bad that the opinion of an Albanian for is own language count less than those of Vladimir Orel (Russian Israeli) who imagined proto‑albanian & make his etymo‑logical work only upon Tosk dia‑lect, with‑out using source from Arabic, Turkish, Persian & Hindu... Mangêzd (talk) 09:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, Stephen, I forgot to number one block of Atalaes of 10 march 2009 for adding njeri etymo‑logy, still I didn't know that the last block lasted six month, be‑cause I was not there and didn't log‑in in wiktionary... I think it is just to much. If I was doing vandalism I will not use my nick, and I will under‑stand a so long block for these kind of de‑structive be‑havior... It is not fair to block some‑one so long for just giving an new idea or opinion about is own mother‑tongue language, and when lot of others people re‑move in‑formations (I.P.A, alternative / re‑lated / co‑gnating terms) from pages with languages that they even don't speak, and with‑out asking their ad‑ders in their talk‑page, and in those cases no‑body is punished... email was sent by Nemzag, 09:29 10 June 2015 (UTC)
I hate to butt back into this conversation, but you should not use someone's nationality to discredit them. Some of the greatest linguists in the world come from outside their area of interest, and it is that very distance that allows them to make unbiased judgments about a language. This is not always the case, but saying someone is a bad linguist because they are from somewhere else is not a convincing argument.
Furthermore, I would like to stress that Wiktionary is based on scholarly consensus, and that consensus is that Proto-Albanian, along with Proto-Indo-European, Proto-Hellenic, Proto-Germanic, etc., are all the best available theories. Unless you have scholarly sources to back up your ideas, they should not be used.
I hope you are doing well, otherwise, Nemzag. It is important to have Albanian speakers available and working on this project. —JohnC514:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
The Standard Albanian based on Tosk was im‑posed in 1969 during the com‑munist dictator‑ship of Enver Hoxha who was a Tosk, after the second world war the east was under con‑trol of the Soviet Union (and the Russians victorious against German & Italian/Roman/Latin), and to con‑trol us they created lot of ir‑realistic theory about our language & made lot of falsi‑fications of our original Gheg & Latin words & dia‑lect... So truly, us Albanian peoples had suf‑fer be‑cause of the com‑munism based upon the theory of Karl Marx (at that time we were the poorest country in Evrope and we had no right to go to re‑ligious temple or to prey, and not right to got out of Albania, fortunately my father is from Macedonia & my mother from Kosovo, who was a that time Yugo‑slavia).
The Serbian made a geno‑cide and they were judged for that at The Hague... Read the case of the F117. So be‑cause of all of this, no for me, this Vladimir from Moscow then Tel‑Aviv have not the right to inter‑fere in our ethnic language and in‑vent root word based upon a never ex‑isting Proto‑Albanian (with‑out any scripting proof of his ex‑istence based upon his ir‑rational hypo‑thesis), be‑cause we Albanian we don't do that with the Hebrew or Slavic languages so please Vladimir just stop, this book is the work of op‑pressors of our state (now Albania is in N.A.T.O and want to enter in E.U, no more U.R.S.S or CIS), I re‑co‑gnize his etymo‑logical Illyrian, Latin, Greek root for some of our words but not the Proto‑Albanian, also he never use Turkish/Persian/Semitic/Egyptian/Caucasian source for the Albanian & Ottoman words that Northern Albanian have in the un‑standard Shqyp... Mangêzd (talk) 15:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Nemzag, it deeply saddens me to hear of all the strife you and your country have undergone. Unfortunately, this has little bearing on who can and cannot comment on a language. It is not the case that Albanian sprang fully formed from nowhere nor did it evolve directly from Latin, Doric Greek, Turkish, Persian, or Arabic (though it might have evolved from Illyrian, which has been claimed to be the precursor to Proto-Albanian. However, too little study has been done in Proto-Albanian to fully support this claim). I am positive that there are Albanian scholars who have done plenty of linguistic work on both Hebrew and Slavic languages, but this, again, is beside the point. No one is in charge of who studies a language. To prevent scholars from studying a language oppresses free thought as much as a communist regime that forces the standardization of a language. Creating theories about a topic does not constitute “[interference] in [your] ethnic language”―it constitutes freedom of thought. It is unfortunate that Orel's theories remind you of communist oppression, but his theories are the most widely accepted, and without a better substitute (which Turkish, Persian, and Arabic do not provide), Wiktionary will continue to use Proto-Albanian for its etymologies.
By the way, you do not need to email me when you respond to my messages. I'll see them eventually. :) —JohnC5
That is very bad that you will still use the false in place of the truth... Proto‑Albanian is a mysti‑fication... You speak about free‑dom of thought in which I really be‑lieve (U.N Universal Human Right Article 18) but when I use my free‑dom of though & ex‑pression for my opinions, ideas or theory, I get block for one month & even at last time 6 month (because I said that Albanian ACAR was re‑lated to CRYO, KAR, קר & قر, so please, this is just not fair, so it is better to don't speak about free‑dom of though & ex‑pression be‑cause it work in only one sens (in 24 december 2010 I was speaking about Human Right Article 19)... Also Vladimir work is be‑coming a real pro‑blem be‑cause some ad‑d (cognate, new theory) from dif‑ferent Albanians users are always e‑rased be‑cause of this Russian book, so no, I can't ac‑cept that (like in HIP/HYP where Vladimir Orel state is linked with German or Lithuanian in‑stead of Ancient GreekὙΠΣΟΣ(HuPSOS) ("hyp‧sos", "hip‧sos"), ὙΠΕΡ ("hyp‧er", "hip‧er") & LatinHYPER & SVPER, Bardhyl Demiraj don't share the point of view of Vladimir Orel in this page).
Really, you need to better know the history of the Albanian from the beginning...
Our language (& words) is made of (in chrono‑logical order) :
Illyrian (if it is really the origin of Shqyptar, be‑cause some say that this word come from Scupi & accipiter, be‑fore we called our‑self Arbënêsh, the actual Shqyptar are mostly Roman/Latin de‑scendant, be‑cause the Illyrian were an‑nihilated & ex‑terminated or as‑similated by the Roman Legion & Em‑pire)
Persian (be‑cause the Ottoman use lot of Persian words and even be‑fore that the Persian were an very old & power‑full Empire)
Semitic Arabic / Hebrew (be‑cause it was the faith of the Ottoman & Hebrew is the original script used in the book of the Ortho‑dox faith)
Goth/Germanic, per‑haps for some words, but I don't know any of them, but I readed some‑where that Bardhyl Demiraj linked some of them with Albanian, be‑cause he is in‑fluenced by his German L.M.U uni‑versity of Munich, where he have a chair)...
In America you have the chance to share all the same of‑ficial language : English (some‑time Spanish), even peoples of dif‑ferent origin use it, but in Evrope we all have dif‑ferent languages (in every states / nations), and lot of neighbors were old historical enemies, the history of Evrope is com‑plicated to com‑pre‑hend (only now we begin to agree through the E.U and his laws based upon human‑rights)...
For me our Albanian language is our treasure and I think that only Albanian Institute of Science & real Albanians have the right to seek & ac‑credit etymo‑logy for a word, no foreign land that are, sorry for the word, our enemy... You say "his theories are the most widely accepted" by who ??? I pre‑fer to use work of Albanian etymo‑logist like Bardhyl Demiraj (but I don't under‑stand his Germanic book ) & older one (like Demiraj Shaban, Eqrem Çabej) di‑rectly from Albania... Re‑member that I'm an amateur, so I don't follow the academic theory of foreign nations (that try to con‑trol & lead us) for my mother‑tongue. Mangêzd (talk) 18:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry to be harsh, but your views on etymology are ridiculous and unfounded. We follow scholarly consensus, and by scholars we mean anybody highly educated and skilled in that specific field, regardless of ethnic or national background. If you continue to add etymologies that do not follow this consensus, you will be blocked, again and for a longer period of time. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds20:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I don't have to be‑lieve in work of foreign lands for my mother‑tongue ? You say skilled, I'm sure that Vladimir Orel even don't speak the Albanian, I'm not telling to any one how to do ad‑d in their own languages, so there is no need to threat me for my Shqyp & Gheg Dia‑lect, I just want to add co‑gnating words, not etymo‑logy, I'm sure I know it better than him, also in my family I have lot of teachers (who finished their study in Albanian uni‑versity, so they know a lot about our languages... Why do you say ridi‑culous the source of our actual Gheg & Tosk language is sourced by history and in‑vasions of these em‑pires. Mangêzd (talk) 20:09, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Again you cite sources which do not support your claims:
This work by Shaban Demiraj discusses many words derived from Proto-Indo-European and mentions Proto-Albanian on page 194 (just search for "proto-Albanian", you'll get it.)
This site references Eqrem Çabej's work on Proto-Indo-European. I'm sure there are better sources about Eqrem Çabej and PIE, but it doesn't matter.
The more general point is that even native Albanian scholars believe in Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Albanian. Proto-Albanian is not some plot to ruin dialectal Albanian. I know there are many loanwords in the language, but it doesn't change the linguistics consensus. —JohnC521:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I mention them be‑cause they were in some re‑ferences of Albanian words in wiktionary (I never readed their books and I don't know them, and I can't judge the quality of their hypo‑thesis, and I don't know what are their be‑lieve). They use Proto‑Albanian be‑cause they were in‑structed by uni‑versity that pro‑mote these theory, hope‑fully, I'm free of these brain‑washing made by their pro‑fessors & searcher who in‑vented these roots (Bardhyl Demiraj made his study in Tirana under the rule & pression of com‑munism by com‑paring the Tosk/Standard Albanian with Romanian, his works is based mostly on Tosk/Standard, who is a falsi‑fication of Gheg, the Tosk use heavily of rhotacism and change terms with P by MB, N by ND, UN by UR, etc...). I don't think we need to search in a sup‑posed proto‑languages with‑out re‑maining books or writing, older of more than 5000 years, when we can use co‑gnating words of ex‑isting languages that have truth‑fully sources for etymo‑logy... Also the link that you provide about Shaban Demiraj mention only one time Proto‑Albanian in page 164, it's not a proof at all... The Proto‑Albanian is a theory made, in‑vented imagined & created by the Russian Vladimir Orel only and I don't be‑lieve what say my com‑munist Slav op‑pressors... Mangêzd (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ah, so universities brainwash people through malicious theories like proto-languages? The thing about cognates is that they are data. We cannot see electrons directly, but we use our best available data, experiments, and theories to prove that they exist. Similarly, we use linguistic data to show the proto-languages are the systems that underlie our modern languages. What is the point of etymology if we are not going to show how cognates are related to one another? It's all very well any good to say that Latin canis and Ancient Greek κύων(kúōn) are related, but we then must ask how. I'm sorry that you see an oppressor in every theory that does not conform to your own ideas, but what is so offensive about your language being descended from the source of the majority of the languages in Europe? Your comments about Russians, Israelis, and others are rather xenophobic and make conversation with you unpleasant. —JohnC522:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Of course uni‑versities brain‑wash people to make them obey to their national in‑terest, lot of foreign leaders in Africa or in colonies were con‑ditioned to obey to orders of secret‑societies and in‑terest of the states making the con‑ditioning, every‑one knows that only credulous peoples are not aware of this...
I'm sorry for hurting you sensibility but it is history, and our people have suf‑fered be‑cause of the Serbian & his Russian ally (and com‑munism from Karl Marx in general, also I didn't make any com‑ment about Israili), it is not xeno‑phobia (I'm not fearing the stranger), it is the logical sentiment of the after war & after communist & soviet era that lot Albanians have & share, so I don't com‑pre‑hend why we should talk about them with some kind of love or re‑spect (still I'm sure that they are lot of good humans being in Serbia & Russia, but the actions of the evil one, hide them from our con‑siderations). I re‑spect Bill Clinton (I sup‑pose that you live in North America and since 230 year you are free and not under the con‑trol of op‑pressors states (like the British was), you made the in‑de‑pendence war against England, so I'm not sure if you under‑stand what is to live under the con‑trol, rules and ideo‑logy of an others nations/tribes who per‑secute your own land (and an‑nihilate you be‑cause of your Muslim (Bosnian) & Catholic (Croatian) be‑lieves, or tyrannically force you to speak Serbian/Slavic and forbid you to use your mother‑tongue at school, col‑lege, faculty, uni‑versity & at job ? This is the reason why the Kosovars re‑volted & crisis beginned), how can you forgot the Cold War ? Do you forgot the nuclear missile crisis in Cuba ? I think you are an U‑topist)...
I'm a cosmo‑politan patriot not a racist, I have lot of friend from dif‑ferent re‑ligions & cultures (Asiatic, Altaic, Slavic (Bosnians, Macedonians), Semitic (Arabs), Italian, Belgian), but Vladimir Orel is a Russian Israili it is only the truth...
About your ex‑ample of Canis & KYON, they are re‑lated be‑cause these two peoples share some com‑mon root (some Etruscan tribe were Greek colony in Italia), but if you com‑pare CANIS with English DOG or even HUND or Russian СОБАКА or Serbian ПАС or Bulgarian/Macedonian КУЧЕ or semitic Kalb כלב / كلب or Ireland madra, there is no link at all, so it is very simple in most case to tell that most Evropean languages don't share the same unique origin, and trying to make only one con‑nection for all of them is just time losing, they are many root : Germanic, Frank, Gaulish, Celtic, Latin/Grec, Semitic, Slavic, Altaic, Persian, Hindu, Illyrian, Thracian, Hun, Tatar, Scandinavian, all these tribes had a dif‑ferent languages from the start of these nations, some words look the same be‑cause of nomadism, culture sharing, war domination & some‑time fluke... I don't under‑stand why some people try to show that all languages are from only one root, what are they trying to prove, that we are all the same ? No, I don't be‑lieve in that be‑cause we are all unique and dif‑ferent, no one look like an others (ex‑cept twins) same for languages (every man & woman have his own in‑tonation, ac‑cent & voice who make is language unique)... Variety & di‑versity make the richness of the world. The Proto‑Hindo‑Evropean root is just a limitation of the variety that the nature have... You can't com‑pare ex‑act science (like your ex‑ample of the electron that you can measurate & veri‑fy with ex‑isting tools & ma‑thematics) with sup‑posed one root language, that you can't prove with ex‑act tool or equations... Mangêzd (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I grow weary of this. I'm sure you will continue to edit and extend your argument, but all my points stand. It was my mistake to begin this discussion. It is clear that we share very different worldviews and systems of thoughts, and I can guarantee that neither of us will convince the other. Unfortunately for you, I think the majority of editors on here will agree with me. —JohnC506:23, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
May‑be for English, but for Albanian I'm not sure of it... Still let the Shqyptar make their edits in Wiktionary for their own ethnic language, that's all... I think you are tired of this dis‑cussion be‑cause my arguments are to strong to counter... I don't force you to talk with me, you are free to stop this con‑versation when you want... Still thank for sharing your opinion & time with me... Mangêzd (talk) 07:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Nemzag, you are not going to win this argument. If you want to add etymologies, you must understand and agree to what we are trying to explain to you. Of course, you do not have to agree...but then you must not add any etymologies. Those are the only two options for you on this English Wiktionary. If you insist on editing as you have been doing in the past, you will be blocked again, perhaps permanently.
So please stop this argument now. It is wasting everybody’s time. Either accept what we are saying to you, or do not add etymologies. Maybe you would be more comfortable if you edit on WikiFjalori shqiptare. Maybe they will agree with you there. —Stephen(Talk)08:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I would be very grate‑full that some con‑tributors (that even are not Albanian) stop ad‑ding fake & imagined Proto‑Albanian etymo‑logy for our ethnic language, that's all. I'm honest be‑cause I do edit using my nick & log‑in, if I was a male‑volent I would do it with‑out logging... I don't waste the time of no‑body, I'm only talking on my own talk page, I will add co‑gnating words in Albanian, and I really want that some users that even don't speak Albanian, stop re‑moving these ad‑d (like in derë), to put fake etymo‑logy based on Vladimir Orel work... I never e‑rased others con‑tributions, but I only ad‑ded some more in‑formations or co‑gnating terms, if some‑thing is wrong in de‑finition, I ad‑vertise the con‑cerned person in his talk‑page, but lot of con‑tributors don't do that, like me, when they e‑rase con‑tent of others, I'm more re‑spect‑full than them it seems... I don't do ad‑d in WikiFjalori shqiptare be‑cause if you knew the law of Albania (during com‑munist dictator‑ship time, law that I think is still in use now), Gheg can't not be used and is il‑legal (lot of students reading Gheg books were im‑prisoned & some others tortured), only standard/tosk is al‑lowed & ac‑cepted (Read Subhuman posts, this is the reason why I pre‑fer to write in American English Wiktionary be‑cause you allow free‑dom of though & speech, and here it is not il‑legal be‑cause you re‑co‑gnize the Gheg language as an ex‑isting one... Still I have a pro‑ject on the side, about the root Codex & word com‑binations so I will make my own PHP site & write my own Gheg book for all of my idea, theory & hypo‑thesis... Mangêzd (talk) 08:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Albania does not have any power over WikiFjalori shqiptare. There are only two admins, but I don’t know who they are. The admins may not even be active there anymore. The editors of WikiFjalori shqiptare can decide what they want. If they want to write Gheg entries, they can do it. I looked at the edits for the past two weeks, and it appears that no edits were made by Albanian speakers. —Stephen(Talk)11:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Bardhyl Demiraj's Albanische Etymologien makes heavy use of Proto-Albanian. Other than that, I have very little knowledge of the scholarship within Albanian studies. —JohnC512:48, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, Stephen & JohnC5, thank for your feed‑back, if you check this, we are only three con‑tributors here (not many Albanians are in‑terested in linguistic it seems), I think that English Wiktionary need us (and I need Wiktionary for backing‑up the Gheg dia‑lect, and the American English Wiktionary archive is a very good place to do it)... So I will still con‑tinue to ad‑d standard Albanian & Gheg variant here (Alter‑native, Co‑gnating & Re‑lated Terms, but not etymo‑logy un‑less it is Latin or Greek or Ottoman) be‑cause I want to do that for my people (Wiki is free & open to any‑one, and I truly like that con‑cept)... I don't want to write in WikiFjalori shqiptare, be‑cause there I need to use the standard (based up‑on Tosk), and I don't love that dia‑lect be‑cause it is not mine and it is a sym‑bol of the op‑pression made to the Gheg by the com‑munist regime of Enver Hoxha... Also don't say that Albania (& Albanians) have no power over the WikiFjalori shqiptare or for is own languages, you don't know what can do the Sigurimi" (Security of state, secret‑services), & the out‑law of Albanian Mafia... It is as if you said that U.S special‑agencies have no power over what goes on in‑side and out‑side of the state.
It doesn't matter how many ac‑credit the Proto‑Albanian, that doesn't make it true (but now they are two ap‑parently Vladimir & Bardhyl), also even the term Proto‑Albanian is wrong be‑cause be‑fore the Ptolemy greek word "Albanian" (150 AD, who is a language made of 8 others), were are in fact SHQYPTAR (ΩϘΥ‑ΠΤΕΡΟΣ) / SHQIPËTAR (AD‑CIPITER : SHQIPONJÊ totem & flag of Varbania, land were live naturally the golden eagles), be‑fore that we were Arbënêsh / Arbëresh / ΑΡΒΑΝΙΤΕΣ and in the beginning Thracian or Illyrian or Epirian (so we should talk about Proto‑Illyrian or else & not Proto‑Albanian), the word Albanian is byzantine (10th AD) from Latin Alba(“white”) & Hebrew לבן(“LBN”) / and if I check this page they give I.P.A even for 5th BC (I don't think the word ex‑isted at that time), but us, we don't call our‑self Albanian but Shqyptar... Mangêzd (talk) 14:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion
Hi, Stephen, I want to ask you if I can ad‑d Gheg alter‑native form for this word tjetër : qetër & çetër but the only re‑ference I have is in a song for qetër & for çetër, these link page 52 & here page 91, can I use tʰem in re‑ference ? Gheg QETËR [ɕetəɾ] & Arbëresh (from in Italia) ÇETËR [tʃetəɾ] co‑gnate with Latin CETERVS & Greek Heteros. Good day.
It should be okay, but there are better references here (qetër) and here (çetër). Note that we do not write Latin entries or references in all capital letters, and we do not use the letter V for U. There is ceterus, but not CETERVS. Ancient Greek must be written in the Greek alphabet, and lower case, not capitals: ἕτερος(héteros).
Please stop adding hyphens to your English words. It is irritating and, for American English, it is incorrect. American English hyphenates English words differently (knowl-edge, ref-er-ence, geog-raphy, pre-sent (verb), pres-ent (noun), etc.) Putting the hyphens in the wrong places makes the text difficult to read. I have asked you previously not to do it. —Stephen(Talk)11:31, 12 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
The re‑ference for çetër are not very good... I don't plan to ad‑d Ceterus & Eteros they are al‑ready there...
I use hyph‑en for the pre‑fix & com‑pound words. I al‑ways write like that on forums, even in French & Albanian when I write a letter or e‑mail, be‑cause it is more pre‑cise, ex‑act & ac‑curate (and if you look the etymo‑logy of these words they are truly com‑posed like that)...
These pre‑fixes have sources in French Larousse dictionary :
Also I don't see any pro‑blem in this be‑cause I am polite and courteous and I never use hyph‑en in Wiktionary terms de‑finitions but only on my personnal page or when I speak with some‑one else on their talk-page... I in‑vented this way of writing and I always ex‑press my self in this manner and it is my free‑dom... I'm really sorry & apo‑logize if you have dif‑ficulties to under‑stand it or to ac‑cept it... There is no uni‑versal or federal law ob‑ligating & telling to us how to write, every author is free to use the style & terms that he want in his writing... Asking me to stop this, is same as if you asked me as a stranger to not speak English with an French or Albanian ac‑cent or in‑tonation, I can't speak or write like a real north‑American or English, I'm not one... You should in‑stead be glad that I learn it & ex‑press my‑self in this language and that I try to im‑prove & a‑meliorate his writing... I am not a con‑formist or a follower. But when I will P.M you in future, I will not use it any‑more but if you ad‑d the message in this page I will put the hyph‑ens.
In England English if you look the file "en_GB.dic" (in folder "share\extensions\dict-en\" of "Open or Libre Office" in‑stallation), they are lot of terms using "‑" for com‑pound terms (search with "CTRL+F"), the "en_US.dic" never use "‑", I learned the England English, in Evr‑ôpe, not in U.S...
You can check these English terms in Wiktionary etymo‑logy section or in de‑tailed Dictionary like "Le Grand Bailly" since 1895 (for Ancient‑Greek terms) or "Le Grand Gaffiot" since 1934 (for Latin terms) and you will see that they use a pre‑fixes that I se‑parate from the root with "‑" (in the "Le Grand Bailly" they write the terms using "‧" (U+2027) in‑stead of "‑" (U+2011)).
For me writing the pre‑fix and root to‑gether with‑out hyph‑en sign "‑" or "‧" is an error that last since the archaic‑men beginned to write in Phoenician script then in Greek script and then in Latin script that we use now... While at that time they didn't know the signs of hyph‑enisation (or even punctuation, ad‑ded later, that we all uses now), I e‑volve and I use tools & signs of my time, I call this scrupulousness. These terms re‑main ex‑actly the same...
Still can I write how I want in my Personal Page ??? I think it's com‑pre‑hensible, under‑standable, sourced, mannerly & civilized...
Even on some American web page I have seen "‑" for the pre‑fixes, like :
And lot others that I can't re‑member now (I will ad‑d tʰem here in future when I see one of tʰem)... The North‑American uses it some‑time for some terms, the English more often, but me I al‑ways use tʰem in all terms that are com‑pounded... And it is not a fault it is veracity...
Also the ex‑ample you give for hyph‑enated English in American are totally wrong (ex‑cept : pre‑sent) be‑cause they don't re‑spect real structure of the com‑position of the terms & the meaning of the pre‑fixes & roots. For these ex‑ample you should better use "." (U+002E) or "‧" (U+2027) for syl‑labic or phonetic se‑paration, in Evrope (France / England) "‑" (U+2011) is for com‑pound hyph‑enated terms... Mangêzd (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
You say that you use the hyphen only on your talk page, but you use it when communicating with English-speaking editors. I have read only one sentence of all that you have written here, i.e., "I use hyph‑en for the pre‑fix & com‑pound terms and only in my talk‑page." I’m not going to make any effort to read the rest. If you will not try to write correctly, then I will not read anything that you write. Sorry. —Stephen(Talk)10:50, 13 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Well, once more into the breach, I suppose. You have several times claimed that your use of hyphens is more accurate or precise. Unfortunately, you could not be more wrong. You have fallen prey to a genetic fallacy (specifically one similar to the etymological fallacy). While many of these terms may once have been composed to prefixes and suffixes at one time or in another language, the majority of them do not represent the current English understanding of the terms. Saying that the word add is made up of ad- + d in English (just because it came from addō, whose etymology was already opaque in Latin) is as accurate as saying the word nice means silly in modern English. It could only be argued to be more accurate for affixes that are still productive, like un- or -ness, but even then, that has never been the conventions of English orthography, and I know that your writing is harder to read than normal. The problem with using words like accurate and precise is it implies that there some agreed upon and formal version that is already in use. As I said, though, these hyphen insertions are not representative of modern English usage, understanding, or convention. It is also preposterous how you will write a section then come back and add in the hyphens you forgot in later edits. This just shows how unnatural the process of adding in hyphens is that you cannot do it efficiently after so many purported years of practice.
I feel bad for writing this response already because you will rant and rave, cite sources that you either do not understand or do not support your claims, and undoubtedly write paragraphs of stuff which is too incomprehensible to read (because of bad hyphenation and bad logic). I just couldn't bring myself not to point out your error. This is honestly my fault for bring it up. —JohnC503:12, 14 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, JohnC5, happy that you talk to me again... You say "cite sources that you either do not under‑stand or do not sup‑port your claims", all ex‑ample I gived in "DI‑GAMMA / VAU : Smooth‑breathing & SIGMA / SAN : Rough‑breathing" con‑versaθ‧ion for Ancient‑Qrêgu ex‑ist & I ad‑ded after some ex‑ample really showing the use of Sigma for rough‑breathing & Di‑Gamma for smooth‑breathing in that book... I don't com‑pre‑hend why you are trying to dis‑credit me or my Evropean Belgian Walloon pro‑fessors... May‑be you think that you & your teachers (ТІЧ‧ЪР ТАЧН‧ЪР ЧАѲ‧ЪР) are better than us or what ?
{"You will rant and rave", I will tarnत्राण & varë वर...}
You can copy this re‑sponse in Note‑pad & re‑place "‑" (U+2011) with a "no space", it would be easier for you to read it, if you have so much dif‑ficulties to com‑pre‑hend a term be‑cause of a simple hyph‑en while the term still re‑mains ex‑actly the same...
I don't use that technique only in English but in all of my vriting since 2007 & al‑ways from 2011 even in Frênch, Sêm‧itic, Macedono‑Serbo‑Croatian & Albanian (and Laθin & Ancient‑Qrêgu)... {By con‑venθ‧ion based on French & Shqyp, I use A for Alpha, Â for [ɑ], Ä for [ɒ], Ë for [ə], E for Epsilon, Ê for Hêta, O for O‑micron & Ô for Ô‑mega and [~] for nazal in Gheg & French.}
After, when I searched, for my web‑site table of de‑mon‑straθ‧ion, terms using for ex‑ample the com‑binaθ‧ion "MB מב / مب & BM בם / بم", the list of terms that I had in the "Languages.DIC" files using "CTRL+F : MB" showed me for ex‑ample "COMBAT", but it was wrong and in‑duced me in error be‑cause "COMBAT" was not a MB com‑binaθ‧ion but BT בט : "COM‑BAT", in‑stead "DEMOBILISER" was a good ex‑ample but he should had been vrited "DE‑MOBILISER" or even beθθer "DE‑MO‧BI‧LI‧SER" be‑cause "MO" variate in these forms MO‧V‧EO MO‧Θ‧IO MO‧N‧Θ‧EM MO‧NS MON‧O MO‧ND‧O MO‧D‧US.
The same pro‑blem ex‑ist in terms from Qrêgu, Shalvunic, Orbitian, Obritian, Shvriac ܣܘܪܝܐ script. When searching for a binary com‑binaθ‧ion (like me) or learning these languages, their bad vriting (not showing pre‑fixes) com‑plicate the com‑pre‑hension and de‑crypθ‧ion of the roots, be‑cause of that we need to search for each vords one by one in dictionary (hope‑fully with in‑ter‑net & wiktionary it is ac‑celerated by 10, I'm born at the right time for this job), imagine the numbers of hours lost for all of us, what a time waste. Also for weqsotic ואקס languages we need to use "Character Map" to vrite them and it take 10 to 20 seconds to be able to search it in Google, so con‑ceive that if you com‑pare five languages like I do, how long it take... (Wiktionary is good but it lack a table fungθ‧ion to have visualizaθ‧ion to com‑pare vords from 2 to 6 languages. Also Wiktionary don't have trans‑laθ‧ion fungθ‧ion from English to any languages).
You will com‑pre‑hend, why I uses hyph‑en when I will put all of my syn‑thêtisaθ‧ion vorks (in French) upon the sy‑stêm of meta‑thêsis, trans‑form‧aθion, com‑puθ‧aθion, vorg‧an‧is‧aθion, com‑peθ‧ênθ com‑posiθion (com‑poθasion poθ‧ênθ), com‑binaθion & numero‑logy (the original rë‑trans‑cripθ‧ion or‧d‧ër (or‧s‧us), from com‑parison of Abgad, Ancient Qrêgu, Shalvic, Ʒeô‑vergian & Varmenian) of these languages :
Laθin (and de‑rivaθive like French → Vrêng, English → The Lêngw‧ish, Albanian → Oalvarbanian)
But I can't tell you more about this now, since I'm the only one who have done it, dis‑covered, de‑ciphered & under‑stand this, and this is a crypto‑se‑cret that I'm gonna make public when my mySQL data‑base & PHP site would be done (I have to buy Adobe Dream‑weaver, and learn how to use MySQL & PHP and it is not simple be‑cause it is totally titan‧antic & gig‧antic job, and I surely will not have enough time in only one life to finalize it... All my work (as an avto‑didact) started in 2005 is in HTML, ODS & PDF now). In fact I'm studying since 2004 and there is a lot of thing that I need to learn (and tʰank very much to Wikipedia) but I have a major pro‑blem, I'm a little bit a‑mnesiac, so I forgot lot of think that I have read & memorized, this is the reason why I vrite every‑thing for back‑up...
When you will read my vork, you will really com‑pre‑hend the true logic of these languages and what is the error that we all made in West‑Evrope using these terms using {in some case} :
P in‑stead of B & B in‑stead of P { ب / پ } and { バ / パ } (BARIS باريس / PARIS پاریس : mostly happen in Arab be‑cause there is no P and in Albanian the Tosk change the Gheg P with MB (TOMB, MBROTOS MB is negaθive BM (oBaMa) is positive ☯), or
F in‑stead of P & P in‑stead of F { פּףּ / פף } and { ڡ / ف } and { फ / फ़ } (PERSIA / FARSIA ; FOR / PRO / POUR ; ΠΑΝΟΣ / ΦΑΝΟΣ), or
S in‑stead of SH & SH in‑stead of S { שׁ / שׂ } and { س / ش } (SHPIRT / SPIRIT ; SAN‧IT‧AS / SHN‧ETH‧A ; SAN‧US / SHN‧OS : in Albanian, like in Portuguese we re‑place often S by SH in most of Laθin terms ; ЧРЪНЪЦРНА), or
TH in‑stead of T & T in‑stead of TH { ת׳ / ת } and { ט׳ / ט } and { ت / ث } (ÞAKKA / TAK / TACK / TAKK ; DANK / TʰANK [tæŋg] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g) : good / THANK [θæŋk] : bad, be‑cause [θ] = [f] + [s] → [θan] = [fan] + [san] → FAN { فان / ΦΟΝ‧ΟΣΦΕΝ‧ΩϜΟΡ‧ΦΑΝ‧ΟΣ[vorfan‧os] invalid IPA characters (‧)ͶΟΡ‑ΦΝ‧Η[wor‧fn‧ɛ] invalid IPA characters (‧‧)وعرͶΕΡΕϜ‧ΟΣ[wer‧ev‧os] invalid IPA characters (‧‧)ΜΟΡ‑ΦΝ‧ΟΣ[mor‑fn‧os] invalid IPA characters (‑‧) / FUN‧USFUN‧ER‧OFUN‧EST‧OFAN‧USOB‑FEN‧D‧OOB‑FEN‧S‧Ô } + SAN { SENEOSENIL } = ΘΑΝ { ΘΑΝ‧ΑΤΟΣ / ΘΝΗ‧ΙΣΚΩ[θan‧at‧os / θnɛ‧sk‧ɔ] invalid IPA characters (‧‧/‧‧) }), or
T in‑stead of D & D in‑stead of T { ダ / タ } (lot of same Germanic and Latin de‑rivative have these T / D variaθ‧ion be‑tween dif‑ferent dia‑lects ; TRAUMDREAM ; DEATHDODTOD ; TAKK DANK ; WORT WORD), or
C in‑stead of K [k], Q [q] or G [g] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g) (in Latin terms) {カ / ガ} (AQUILA / AGUILA ; In my opinion Latin terms using C can have [g] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g) & [q] walue be‑cause this letter C came from Gamma Γ & 𐌂 and also you surely know that AD‑ be‑fore some letters change to A‑ AB‑ AC‑ AG‑ AR‑ AS‑ AT‑ and since AD‑ be‑fore a Q (AC‑QUISITION) change to C it mean that C have the walue [q] originally. I will not tell you why Ἀ‑ (Alpha privativum, originally ͶΑ‑ [wa‑] invalid IPA characters (‑) or Alpha copulativum & Alpha in‑tensivum, originally ϜΑ- [va‑] invalid IPA characters (‑) & ΑϜ‑ [av‑] invalid IPA characters (‑)), AD‑, AB‑, COM‑, ἘΝ‑, IN‑, SUB‑, ΣΥΝ‑ change form be‑fore some letters here, I keep this capital in‑formaθ‧ion for my web‑site), or
K in‑stead of Q { क / क़ } (in some Qrêgu terms), or
G [g] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g) in‑stead Ʒ [ʒ] of and Ʒ [ʒ] in‑stead of G [g] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g) { Ѓ / Г } and ج[g/ʒ/dʒ] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g//) and { ג׳ / ג } (GOOD [ɡʊd] / GENTLE [ˈd͡ʒɛntl̩] ; GEO‑ [dʒiːɑ] / ΓΕΩ‑[geɔ‑] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g‑))...
I'm sorry if you think that mod‑ern English don't follow that or‧t‧o‑or‧d‧o‑ϝὀρ‧θ‧ο‑or‧s‧o‑logic & the old meaning of these wor‧d‧s / wor‧t‧s / vor‧th‧s (vorg‧anized terms)...
But you should ad‑mit that the actual English pro‑nunciaθ‧ion of Qrêgu & Laθin terms & alpha‑bêθa vowêl letters is very erroneous & wrong‑full if you com‑pare to the real original ancient phonetic of these terms & letters... English is not the only languages with this pro‑blem :
Modern‑Greek have very il‑logical phonetics with three [i] (Η Ι Υ), two [o] (Ο Ω), in‑version of Τ & Θ in some case be‑cause sound walue changed with time (Qrêgu term with Θ or Τ are vritten some‑time with ת some‑time with ט in Obrith (so even the Obrith letters ת & ט can both be [t] & [θ], this prove that the two Qrêgu letters have two phonetic walue de‑pending on dia‑lect and epoch)...
French have big pro‑nunciaθ‧ion pro‑blem with nasalizaθ‧ion of AN / EN [ɑ̃], IN [ɛ̃], UN [œ̃], ON [ɔ̃], no TH re‑placed by [s] and ending -S for plural terms is not pro‑nounced...
The mod‑ern Arabs & Hebrew have fake pro‑nunciaθ‧ion & don't re‑spect the Orbitians Evritians Evtarians re‑wêlaθ‧ions (and some Arabs term uses wrong number of point إِ‑عْجَام[a‑ogam] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (‑g) (and there‑fore phonetic) be‑cause the first original ediθ‧ion of Al‑Qaraan were vritten with‑out them so there is a con‑fusion be‑tween these letters فڡ[p/f] invalid IPA characters (/) / ج[g/ʒ] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g/) / وۋ[v/w] invalid IPA characters (/) / تث[t/θ] invalid IPA characters (/) / سش[s/ʃ] invalid IPA characters (/) and some others, also the Sêmite are a little bit lazy to vrite com‑pletely their vords using only two dif‑ferent letters, for ex‑ample ع(“[o]”) & ر(“[r]”) that have be‑cause of that lazi‑ness mis‑spelling with multi‑ple de‑finiθ‧ion sense like عر(“de‑fault, itch, twitch ; naturism, nudity [or] ; blind‑ness [owr] ; calibre, criterion, standard, norm [ojr]”)[3][4][5][6][7] who are dif‑ferent terms, even the Obrit & Shvriac ܣ݂ܘ݂ܪܝܐ do that to, a big mis‑take be‑cause it trouble com‑pre‑hension like عار(“[oar]”) that should be vrited like this عارر(“[oarr]”)عرار(“[orar]”) & عاعر(“[oaor]”)ععار(“[ooar]”) and عور(“[our]”) that should be vritten عرور(“[orur] : de‑fault, itch, twitch”)ععور(“[oour]”) & for the term using و as a root عور(“[owr] : blind”) like this عوور and also for variant ۋ(“[v]”)عۋر(“[ovr]”) & عۋور(“[ovr]”), you can ex‑tract their true com‑posiθ‧ion by com‑paring their de‑rivative like معتر[m‑otr] invalid IPA characters (‑), that should be معترر[m‑otrr] invalid IPA characters (‑) or the case of عائر[oajir] that should be ععائر[ooajir] also it is better to vrite و[u] when it is a vowel and ۋ[v/w] invalid IPA characters (/) when it is not de‑rivative vowel but one of the letter com‑positing root using V or W de‑pend if the vord is positive & negative (the Hanaphite vrite و[u/v] invalid IPA characters (/) and the Hanbalite [u/w] invalid IPA characters (/)). For vrit‧ing the Orbitian pre‑fix we should use "‑" (U+2011) to avoid con‑founding a triple letter root beginn‧ing with M or B like مزج(“blend‧ing, com‑bin‧e, com‑mingl‧e, com‑mix, mix‧ing”), with terms using pre‑fixes M or B, ad‑ded to a double letter root with pre‑fix, like م‑زج that should be vritten م‑زجج(“throw, push ; glass, bottle”) or م‑زاج(“vitriol, sulfuric‑acid, rosacea ; plumb‑line, ephemeris, Astro‑nomical table”)...
The Persian terms are in‑verted...
In English :
the -SION [sjon] & -TION [θjon] is [ʃən], be‑cause the sound thorn [θ]Þþ be‑came [ʃ] sho Ϸϸ,
the A [a ɑ ɒ] is [ə ɑ ɒ e ɛ æ]
the E [e ɛ] is [i]
the I [i] is [aj i]
the O [o ɔ] is cor‑rect
the OO [oo ɔɔ] is [u]
the U [u] is [ʌ ʊ]
the Y [y] is [j i] (I think there is no sound [y] in English)
Et cetera, in Albanian our vowel have the old sound meaning & have ex‑actly same walue than the I.P.A...
My singular & own (buddʰëבֻּדדהַvatrۋَتْر) vtarवेत्तृۋثرۋسرۋفر way of ver (ϜΡΕ‧Ω & verse) vriting वर is not wrong, the actual sy‑stêm of writing is wrong based on archaic way of writing of primitive men, that even didn't know at that time the punctuaθ‧ion (15th AD), the space be‑tween terms (800 CE) & the hyph‑en "‑".
And who had forgotten the ancient crypto‑logic of the Meso‑pot‧am‧i‧ans, Egyptians & Sêm‧itics scribes who e‑laborated & de‑weloped this sy‑stêm of root, syl‑lables & letters com‑binaθ‧ions 5000~3000 years ago, when vriting was in‑vented.
I use Mozilla Firefox, and in‑side it, there is avto‑maθic Ϙρήγυ‧ισμ‧ός[qrɛgu‧iʃm‧os] replace g with ɡ, invalid IPA characters (g‧‧) Qor‑rɛgθ‧ion for Êngl‧ish (Lêng‧ish لحنج), and he use Êngël‑land‑Êngëlish and in lot of case, he pro‑pose me "‑" for some terms & com‑pound words... But if the "DIC" file used totally my sy‑stêm all word would be cor‑rected and I will not need to made that by my‑self... I'm an human I make mis‑take & forgot some‑time to add "‑" (ERRARE HUMANUM EST), this could happen, you say it is un‑natural, but for you only & for those who don't learned it, in "Le Grand Bailly" they use hyph‑en for most of the words (not their de‑rivative) showing there their true com‑posiθ‧ions, and I think it is really good & use‑full... I ad‑ded the hyph‑en in my web‑site even be‑fore reading the "Le Grand Bailly"...
I have learned all Laθin, Qrêgu pre‑fixes and I know when to use tʰem. And I begin to learn the Germano‑English & Shalvo‑Macedono‑Serbo‑Croaθian pre‑fixes to not make mis‑take in these languages, and now I even start to modi‑fy these "Languages.DIC" to ad‑d "‑" in tʰem, to use tʰem with Open/Libre Office or in Fire‑fox & when I use CTRL+F for seeking a two‑letters com‑binaθ‧ion and to not have the false‑one فلسسفل showed. But only the A‑lɛfsë אלפס / ܐܠܦܫ / ألفس (Alphasaô)...
The terms have an im‑pact in our psycho‑logies, our feelings and in meta‑physics reality.
The unique sounds of our voices (deprecated template usage)קול are spectres of light (like radio‑wave, micro‑wave, infra‑red, ultra‑violet, gamma rays...).
These sounds en‑vergies act & re‑act with the mater, a‑toms & the reality.
At‑tention ! Some vords with one positive binary com‑bination in‑side it, can be negative & or neutral be‑cause of a second & third binary walue merged in it, and so cause his total change meaning variation. So for these case, we will use the binaries that cause the variation negative or positive variation to classi‑fy it in the de‑mon‑stration table...
Some binaries keys, positive (RB) or negative (like BR) used in triple ar‑rangemênt like BRR & BBR & RBB RRB, have negative, positive & neutral variation even if the binaries is only negative or positive. I have not yet de‑coded, de‑crypted & dis‑covered why, but may‑be it is be‑cause of their Gematric(deprecated template usage)גימטריה walue, even, odd or in‑teger number, I don't know nothing about the Gêô‑metria(deprecated template usage)גאו‑מטריה in vorths...
The true sêm‧antic & vet‧umo‑logic sense of a ancient term can be com‑pre‑hended only by the under‑standing the sense of the binaries roots. I plan to uses a Kanji sym‑bol for showing these meanings (but I will not de‑scribe them here, be‑cause it is a Talk‑Page and it take lot time and I al‑ready made lot of this vorks in my web‑site & PDF, so no need to do it again, I just want to show ex‑amples)...
At‑tention Qrêgu & Greek with Θ & Τ and Latin vords, are not good ex‑ample for the table be‑cause the two letters had dif‑ferent walue de‑pending on dia‑lect and epoch) and be‑cause the Latins e‑rased the Etruscan 𐌈 from their alpha‑beta, so Latin T can be a [t] or [θ], look in Spanish they pro‑nounce the ‑TION [θjon] and the French who don't have [θ] uses [s], this prove that Latin T have two walues [t] & [θ]. Also the Π [p] & Φ [f] is not sure to in Greek. If you check for ex‑ample ΣΥΝ in ancient it was written ΞΥΝ so may‑be at that time Ξ was a [s] in antiquity, then sigma be‑came [s] in‑stead of [ʃ] they re‑written ΣΥΝ and the terms using [ʃ] were modi‑fied to use rough‑breathing.
The Κ [k] & [v] is un‑sure be‑cause of re‑moved Ϙ [q] & [v]. The Greek terms suf‑fer of dis‑paritions of the Ͷ [u≡w] invalid IPA characters (≡) & Ϝ [v] re‑placed by smooth‑breath‧ing. The same pro‑blem ex‑ist in de‑rivative languages based on Slavonic be‑cause of re‑moved Ҁ Ѳ І. But by comparing with Syriac, Obrithic & Orbitic, we can find that some of these Qrêgu terms use Qoppa & not Kappa at the origin.
The Syriac Samekh is Shêmitic Shin and
the Syriac Shin is Shemitic Samekh, they are in‑verted...
Know that [θ] = [f] + [s], so positive & negative binary ad‑dition are the same for the three, if for example NS is positive + then NF & NTH to... The per‑ovaperf com‑bination for [θ] + [f] + [s] is тшаФаѲаСъ [fθs] (ΦΩΣ → ФАОС ФАОѲОС), the most negative (worst) is СаѲШъ [sθf].
I keep the rest of the keys for me & my web‑site (I have many more terms as ex‑amples but I will not put them here) :
ΒΥΣ ΒΜΥΣΙΚΗ (MUS‧A) ΒΜΥΤΙΚΗ [bmuθ‧ik‧ ɛ] invalid IPA characters ([‧‧]) {Attention Qrêgu & Greek vords with Θ & Τ, are not good ex‑ample be‑cause the two letters had dif‑ferent walue de‑pending on dia‑lect and epoch).
Hi, know‑ledgeable Stephen, I'm trying to make a sortable table for my decipheration de‑mon‑stration of the binary roots sy‑stêms com‑bination, that make tree or four letters terms in our languages by com‑bining two or three binary keys, but I can't find a way to make these two header (!! ⊕ !! Ex‑amples Positive) with black background & white script... Can you make the cor‑rection optimization please...
Thank, good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 7:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I’m a‑fraid I don’t know very much about how to write templates. For such technical questions about soft‑ware and pro‑gramming, you can ask at WT:GP. That is the page where the pro‑gramming ex‑perts solve pro‑blems. —Stephen(Talk)00:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi, Stephen
I have a question, when I use the com‑mand Template:term... I have an auto‑matic spelling of pro‑nunciation (with some languages not all), like for ex‑ample (deprecated template usage)ب(b) / (deprecated template usage)پ(p), with whom I have this re‑sult {ب (b) / پ (p)}, what is the com‑mutator to stop this auto‑matic pro‑nunciation add ???
Can you please help & re‑spond with a P.M, not on Talk‑Page.
Tʰank good day... email was sent by Nemzag, 3:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Tʰank for your help. This is very strange that ad‑mini‑strators don't have this basic Wiktionary P.M function available... Mangêzd (talk) 13:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Hi Stephen, I want to notice you about a font bug, in wiktionary when you use the com‑mand {{term with lang=ar or lang=fa the size of the terms is en‑larged (and have same size) but if I use a lang=ps (pashto) the size is not equal, like : (deprecated template usage)أور(deprecated template usage)اور, this don't look good, can you ask the web‑master to cor‑rect this bug of font size ?
Thank, no need to put this in my Talk-Page, I have con‑fidence in you for this.
Good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 12:41, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
It is not a font bug, it is just your choice of fonts. Certain fonts are recommended for some languages, and if you use the recommended fonts, the size should be correct. If you use other fonts, the size could be too large or too small. I think that the recommended fonts are shown in this file: MediaWiki:Common.css. —Stephen(Talk)05:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I use Firefox and in Fonts there is no Pastho special font setting but only generic Arab, all languages using Arabic script use the same fonts :
Proportional "Sans serif"
Serif "Times New Roman"
Sans serif "Segoe UI"
Fix width : "Courier New"
I don't think the pro‑blem is coming from my setting...
In wiktionary style CSS we have :
Pashto use Pokhto, Pashto Kror Asiatype, "Iranian Sans", sans-serif;
Arabic use "Iranian Sans", Arial Unicode MS, Code2000, Traditional Arabic, sans-serif;
Persian use "Iranian Sans", Geeza Pro, Tahoma, sans-serif;
Why not using for all of them Tahoma (standard Windows font) first ??? email was sent by Nemzag, 4:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Not all languages using Arabic script are supported by a single font. Different languages that use the Arabic script have special letters that others don’t have.
The best fonts for Arabic is "Andalus" but some letter are missing (but I created I file called Tsh'alandaus for them) and for Hebrew best font is "Cardo". Mangêzd (talk) 11:14, 24 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
I have an other question about com‑mand "{{term", some‑time with some languages, the word is in Italic, how can I stop that ? What is the com‑mutator ?
Thank, good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 8:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
You sug‑gest me to use an other template, but what are the com‑mutator for these one ? Can I use |TR=|, alternate spelling, trans‑lation like in template term ???
Good day... email was sent by Nemzag, 4:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I don’t remember which templates you are talking about. I don’t know what you mean by "can I use alternate spelling, translation". If you go to the page where the template is created, such as {{term}}, you will usually find some instructions about how to use it. —Stephen(Talk)05:11, 24 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
I really think that the pro‑grammer of Wiktionary should add a com‑mutator to term template, to avoid Italic dis‑playing with some‑thing like |it=-|... This would be very use‑full. email was sent by Nemzag, 16:54, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
The main difference between {{term}} and {{l}} is that {{term}} has italics- that's why it exists. It would be silly to undo that, since there are places where italics are desirable. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:34, 1 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ok, thank for your com‑ment, I think that ad‑ding this com‑mutator |it=-| can be use‑full for {{term}}, I'm not saying to un‑do that for all {{term}}, but to al‑low us to de‑activate this function some‑time if we need it... Mangêzd (talk) 09:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm talking about languages & script knowing in User Pro‑file page, check my page and you will see that some value are not cor‑rectly dis‑played... This is what I mean... email was sent by Nemzag, 11:13, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank for having cor‑rected the Babel-3 template & Babel-8 template in User Page. But for ALN : the de‑scription is this : "Ky përdorues e flet dialektin gegë të shqipes", it would be better to write it like this : "Ky për‑dorus e flet dia‑lektin Geg të Shqypës". This is more original... The Gheg don't use Ë at end of terms like the Standard/Tosk and not use -UES but -US, like (Gheg) MSUS (MSU) & (standard,Tosk)(deprecated template usage)MËSUES(deprecated template usage)MËSU...
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi, Stephen, I wonder why there is no function to lock some content in our own "Talk‑Page" & sub‑folders like past years archives... I think Wiktionary should ad‑d this feature...
Do we need to ask ad‑mini‑strators to lock them ?
Thank for having cor‑rected the ALN de‑scription in Babel-3 template...
Good day... email was sent by Nemzag, 07:05, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, only administrators have the ability to protect pages (lock). There are two levels of protection: (1) partial protection, unregistered users cannot edit, but anyone who has registered a username can edit the page; and (2) full protection, only administrators can edit the page. You have to ask an administrator to protect a page. —Stephen(Talk)06:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Thank, Good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 09:28, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Hi Stephen, I want to up‑date you about the situation it seem that Wiktionary autom‑atically re‑place, for an un‑known reason, the acute ac‑cent with the tonos ac‑cent version...
I tried to search for a term (deprecated template usage)κρήγυος with (deprecated template usage)ή (U+1F75) in Wiktionary search button, but when I ar‑rive in the creating page, if I try search to search in Firefox for κρήγυος with ACUTE AC‑CENT HÊTA (U+1F75) from Uni‑code Greek Ex‑tended using "CTRL+F", I can't find it in the page, be‑cause auto‑matically Wiktionary re‑written it κρήγυος with TONOS HÊTA (U+03AE)...
The modern‑Greek Tonos from Unicode Greek Basic is not right ac‑cent of Ancient‑Greek... What should we do about this ???
Tʰank. email was sent by Nemzag, 12:16, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I do not understand what you are talking about. In your sentence "Ancient‑Greek ύ acute accent but Modern‑Greek ύ", both of the ύ are the same (both are Unicode u+03cd). Both instances of ύ are composed of υ + ́ (Unicode u+03c5 u+0301). In (deprecated template usage)κρήγυος, the ή is Unicode u+03ae. In your phrase "search in Firefox for κρήγυος", the ή is Unicode u+03ae. In your phrase "re‑written it κρήγυος with", the ή is Unicode u+03ae. They are the same letter. There is no difference.
In your Unicode examples, u+1f00 = ἀ. u+0370 = Ͱ. The letter ἀ (u+1f00) is good for both Ancient and Modern Greek.
I do not know what you are doing that causes you this trouble, but the Greek acute accent that we use on Wiktionary are correct. —Stephen(Talk)07:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Je trouve cela il‑logique... Car l'ac‑cent Ac‑cent Tonos du Grecque Moderne, n’a rien à voir avec l'Ac‑cent Aigu de l’Ancien Grecque...
Il n'y aucune raison censé pour le BOT de Wiktionary d'agir de la sorte...
Voila ce que j'essaie de te dire... Je pense qu'il y a un bug pour cette lettre, je ne sais pour les autres, je suis désolé mais c'est faux de l'é‑crire comme cela, il ne faut pas con‑fondre les lettres anciennes avec les modernes... Bonne journée et merci pour ton aide. email was sent by Nemzag, 08:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Tonos have an vertical ac‑cent, Acute have an ob‑lique ac‑cent. You are in‑duced in error by the look of the character be‑cause in Wiktionary you use a fonts that make look Tonos & Acute same... Even when writing this message and saving it, Wiktionary replace ύ (U+1F7B) with (deprecated template usage)ύ (U+03CD), and it is faulty... Mangêzd (talk) 08:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
If you type u+1f7b (oxia), it will change automatically to u+03cd (tonos). This is so that we have only a single form (u+03cd). We do not want to have some words written with one form, and other words written with the other form. This is a policy called normalization, and it has been implemented across all wikis by Wikimedia. It cannot be changed. Forget about u+1f7b, because it is always changed to u+03cd when the page is saved. —Stephen(Talk)08:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Thank for tacking time to re‑spond... This normalization politic is wrong‑full, I'm sorry to say it. Be‑cause Modern‑Greek should be written with Ac‑cent Tonos only & Ancient‑Greek with Ac‑cent Acute only... You (Wiki team) have chosen to pro‑ceed like that, but I apo‑logize your choice is false, you (team) don't re‑spect the history of these ac‑cent and the real writing of the Ancient‑Greek. In fact your team should do the con‑trary, al‑ways re‑place the "Tonos Ac‑cent" by "Acute Ac‑cent" in Ancient‑Greek... A Wiki‑BOT can do that easily for Ancient‑Greek {{grc}} and an other one can do the re‑placement for Modern‑Greek {{el}}... Mangêzd (talk) 09:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
There's this marvellous thing called Canonical equivalence, and also the fact that the difference between the tonos and the oxia is literally the least important thing that we could do to help make Ancient Greek better. I mean, really, they didn't even have fonts back then, so we're already breaking the idea of perfect accuracy. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 05:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Hi, thank for giving your opinion and showing me your link but I don't under‑stand what he de‑scribe even if I read it in French... Again Tonos & Acute are dif‑ferent, uses an an‑other font like "Tahoma" than the de‑fault "Athena" for /* Greek */ in Wiki CSS pro‑file, and you will see your mis‑take... Think in 4 dimensions like Einstein, what would happen if in the future the de‑fault Greek font is changed in the Wiki CSS with one having the Tonos vertical and not ob‑lique... It is very im‑portant & prim‑ordial to cor‑rect this. Take my sug‑gestion in con‑sideration. I seek the per‑fection & ac‑curacy in all thing I do and write, try to do the same... Mangêzd (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Nemzag, I have not tried to explain this matter to you because I know that you will never admit that you are mistaken, and you will never accept that we are right about the Greek accents. As I said before, this is a policy that has been investigated, considered, and implemented by Wikimedia, and it cannot and will not be changed. No matter how many times you ask that we take your suggestion into consideration, we will not do it. The matter of Greek accents has been decided. This is my final word. —Stephen(Talk)05:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Ok, it is your choice, and you de‑cided it, but you are mis‑taken and making an big error, I don't under‑stand why you not do the con‑trary by al‑ways using the Acute accent in‑stead of Tonos, for Ancient‑(deprecated template usage)Qrêguos, and keeping Tonos only for modern‑Greek (again uses other fonts for Wiki CSS like one of the those I listed above and you will see your error), I really don't com‑pre‑hend, since a wiki‑BOT can do that auto‑matically... Mangêzd (talk) 08:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
To‑day, after seeking a de‑finition for a Ancient‑Qrêgu vord un‑findable in Wiktionary, I copied the vord from Wiktionary page & paste it to Google, and I had 8 re‑sults be‑cause of mis‑spelling, I had to change the ac‑cent with "Windows Character Map", what a waste of time... Mangêzd (talk) 20:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
Hi, I added etymology in MBROJ, I use code {{roa}}, is working he show me a link to Roman in Wikipedia but for the other one there is a bug.
Can you ask your programmer to update this ???
Tʰank, Good day. email was sent by Nemzag, 09:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Romance isn't a language, it's a language family. People don't speak Romance, they speak French, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Sardinian, Italian, Romanian, etc. In the same way, both you and I can be said to be native speakers of Indo-European, but linking to a word in either of our languages (or in Welsh, Hindi or Armenian, for that matter) with the language code ine would be utterly useless. The whole purpose of the {{term}} template is to format a term according to the needs of a specific language and link to the entry in that specific language. If you don't know what language it is, don't use a family code. See my edit in this diff for one way to deal with this. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Thanks for your additions. Where are you getting the words from? Are they words you are encountering in literature and looking up? Benwing (talk) 04:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I get these vords from my search, my syn‑thetization & ana‑lytic ana‑logic com‑parison studies...
I have a very good dictionary the Dictionnaire Larousse Compact Plus Arabe‑Français, by Daniel Reig, 2008, →ISBN, where all terms are vorg‧an‧ized by root and showing de‑rivatives (but some have classi‑fication error made by the author & be‑cause of the wrong‑full Arabs way of vriting vord with only two dif‑ferent letters (ex‑ample : (deprecated template usage)ر & (deprecated template usage)ب) like this (deprecated template usage)رب and (deprecated template usage)روب (vowel [u] de‑rivative) in‑stead of vriting it com‑pletely & correctly with three letter variant like :
be‑cause they vrite it (deprecated template usage)راب... So the author Daniel Reig of the Dictionnaire, make some classi‑fication error because of this Arab mis‑spelling way of vriting.
For an‑swering your question, yes I'm looking up for these terms after listening re‑citation of the Al‑Qaraan or when listening Anashid, or Balkan, Ottoman, Macedonian, Thracian, Illyrian, Albanian Talava / Tallava(deprecated template usage)تلاۋة musics from the Romi / Ashkali or Shqyptar & Macedonian, and to under‑stand some of their un‑com‑pre‑hensible terms I need to check in various dictionary (mostly Macedonian, Qrêgu (Greek), Latin, Sanskrit, Orbian). (at‑tention these videos in Youtube are not the best music a‑wailable).
In the beginning I ad‑ded these Orêbs term by my own in Wiktionary (for linking de‑finition to the vords used in my web‑page), but ad‑mins were not happy with the quality, so they ask me long time ago (4 or 5 years ago), to make re‑quest... I don't under‑stand why you ask me where I get these vords ? Mangêzd (talk) 08:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
When we search for a Greek or Ancient Qrêgu vords, it would be cool that the search system, al‑low the search of a terms with‑out using the ac‑cent, and pro‑pose variation avto‑maθically by re‑placing the vowels (and the rhos Ρ : ῤ ῥ ρ) in term with all types of variation (tonos, spirit, accent) possible making all the com‑bination in‑stantly and showing them avto‑maθically : آلة(ʔāla) (God is an avto‑maθism)... This avto‑matic sy‑stem spelling should vork even if you write the vords in capital, the wiki managing soft‑ware should be able to search by re‑placing the letter with minus‑cule, I ask this be‑cause when using Character Map the capital are shown first and are more readable and identi‑fiable than minus‑cule, searching for special ac‑cent, tonos or spirit is a waste of time, so please devs make some‑thing about this. To al‑low faster search...
أله: ΘΕ‧ΟΣ ΘΕ‧ΣΟΣ (the vorg‧an‧is‧aθ‧or, the ar‑rang‧er, the qoshm‧aθ‧or, the ord‧in‧aθ‧or, the com‑puθ‧or)
Please ad‑d auto‑maθic Merging of minor edit or major edit by the same editor, in a short & big space of time, or until the edit of an another editor, like that, in con‑tribution page, multi‑ple edit from the same editor are not shown, I know there is an option to hide them in Pre‑ference but avto‑matic merging would be better...
Dont forget to ad‑d a com‑muθator |it=-| to avoid Italic dis‑playing on some navigaθor for {{term}}...
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
You were repeatedly warned and blocked 7 times by different admins for adding patently false information. You stubbornly do not change your behaviour: [2], [3]. I am now blocking you indefinitely for harming Wiktionary. --Vahag (talk) 10:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
