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Again, welcome! --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 02:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Headword templatesEdit

Don't forget to use headword templates such as {{vi-noun}} or {{vi-verb}} or {{vi-adj}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 03:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Accelerated Vietnamese entriesEdit


You can use {{vi-new}} to create new Vietnamese entries. It's easy to use. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. But how does it work?Fumiko Take (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, I created ca sĩ by using {{subst:vi-new||[[singer]]|h=歌士}} on the red link. Preview, save, that's it. 歌士 was created by {{subst:vi-new/ht|ca sĩ|[[singer]]}}. Currently it doesn't support synonyms, related terms, etc. and does only one PoS at a time but we can ask User:Wyang to enhance it. There are also similar templates for other East Asian languages, including Japanese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again. Fumiko Take (talk) 02:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome. I see you don't use it. You can try making "ban công" by using {{subst:vi-new||[[balcon]]|e={{bor|vi|fr|balcon}}}}. Let me know if you need more help. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Honestly, I checked your created page "ca sĩ" and didn't see anything different. I'm not a Wiki guy, so those codes don't really make sense to me. I still don't understand how the template works.Fumiko Take (talk) 03:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The result won't be different from manual work but you can see in the history how entries are created. Let's try a simple entry, like I suggested. :)
  1. Click on a red link (the normal way), e.g. "ban công"
  2. Paste template example into the edit area, e.g. {{subst:vi-new||[[balcon]]|e={{bor|vi|fr|balcon}}}}
  3. Click "preview" and "save" if you're happy with what you see. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The above example will make a noun. If you need e.g. a verb, you'd need "subst:vi-new|v...", etc. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Sadly, I'm not quite happy with the preview result. This is what I got looks like.
Fumiko Take (talk) 03:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Your image looks right. I've just made it. Take a look. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
There are two things. First, the fonts are messed up. Secondly, there's no way that "ban công" has a Sino-Vietnamese origin.Fumiko Take (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
I have manually changed etymology. I'll ask Wyang to fix it. Maybe I did something wrong. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The template is designed well for native and Sino-Vietnamese terms. e= parameter needs fixing or you can do without it, just {{subst:vi-new||[[balcon]]}} and then add/fix manually. For Sino-Vietnamese, use |h=. I can't see problems with fonts. The result is the same as manual editing. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


Hi Fumiko Take, thanks for your great Vietnamese contributions lately. I rewrote {{vi-pron}} and Module:vi-pron yesterday to make it more compatible with non-native syllables, for example Pa-le-xtin, and added an error detection step to catch unanalysable syllables. There are a number of pages in Category:Pages with module errors, all of which are transcriptions of foreign words. Could you please take a look and add the phonetic spelling for each in {{vi-pron}}? e.g. chủ nghĩa Marx has {{vi-pron|chủ nghĩa Mác}}. Thank you! Wyang (talk) 23:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

By "adding the phonetic spelling" you mean adding manually, by typing the phonetic characters?Fumiko Take (talk) 02:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I meant typing a phonetic spelling in the template, like {{vi-pron|chủ nghĩa Mác}} for chủ nghĩa Marx. It's all right, I have fixed all of them. Thanks. Wyang (talk) 11:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't know the template can be used that way.Fumiko Take (talk) 11:37, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

bức as a classifier?Edit

If the Viat Namese syllable/word bức is a classifier, what is it used for? I've seen it at tường, tự sướng, and thư. Judging from the meanings of those words, is the classifier used for messages and certain other things? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo: From what I know about classifiers, "bức" can be one, to indicate some types of flat objects (or rather flat) such as walls (bức tường), barriers (bức vách), letters (bức thư), telegrams (bức điện), paintings (bức hoạ, bức tranh, bức vẽ) and photos (bức ảnh). I have no idea what the hell "bức tự sướng" is, but "bức ảnh tự sướng" is okay.Fumiko Take (talk) 02:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Spelling reforming convention for what pronunciation?Edit

Hi, I also have another question for you. Does your Viat Namese spelling reforming convention apply to only the northern pronunciation? Or is it flexible when it comes to the central and southern pronunciations? (For some reason, your alphabet reform reminds me of Reading Rainbow and its theme song, along with a Viat Namese children's book titled Yellow, Where Are You? or something like along those lines that I came across at DeviantArt.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:27, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo I'm surprised! I didn't think anyone would pay attention to those thingies I wrote. Anyway, yes, it only applies to the Northern pronunciation. One word can be pronounced very, very different from one accent to another, so that creating a phonetic alphabet that can apply to all dialects would be impossible. The traditional alphabet also only applies to the northern dialect, and that's where I started from.Fumiko Take (talk) 07:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo P/S: What is the original title of Yellow, Where Are You?
Translate the phrase "Yellow, Where are You?", if you want, and maybe I could use the translated phrase to look for the book pages of the story. (Off topic here, but what does the word banh mean? I extracted it from the Vietnamese edition of Wiktionary. Also off topic: I created this adapted writing system which I call Arabetan, and I'm not sure what Wyang could think of it.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo Well, that could be "Vàng ơi, con/em/mày ở đâu?". No need for saying "off topic", just post a new one. "Banh", as a noun, is a dated word in Northern dialects, and a colloquial one in Southern dialects (which might be derived from the French term "balle"), for "bóng" ("ball"). It is also, as a verb, an informal term for the action to spread/widely open something, as in "banh háng" (spread your legs) or "banh miệng túi" (widely open a sack), "banh mắt nhìn" (open your eyes), etc.
Taking reference from the Vietnamese Wiktionary, I'd say it's also an adverb meaning "badly" and going with verbs meaning "destroy/devastate", as in "phá banh" (destroy very badly); and a noun derived from the French term "bagne", as in "banh ở Côn Đảo" (Bagne de Poulo Condor)
I don't read the Arabic and Tibetan scripts so I can't really comment anything on that matter. Why don't you show it to Wyang and ask him what he would think about it?Fumiko Take (talk) 08:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I just found what I had been looking for, and the title is "Màu Vàng ở đâu?" --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 12:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
(One year later...) Why not share your reform convention with the webmaster of chunom.org? I'm sure he would be interested. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:09, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

nước, người and tiếng words -countries and demonymsEdit


Would you or Vietnamese linguists consider country names with nước to be sum of parts, e.g. nước Anh or nước Nga? What about demonyms with người, as in người Việt and language names with tiếng: tiếng Việt? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:35, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev 1. I don't know about the linguists. As far as I know, we Vietnamese people are pretty lazy in terms of phonetic matters, that it to say we always prefer short words that contain two or less syllables. On news channels, they mostly call countries by their names only, when referring to political matters and sport teams, and they don't often include "nước". For example, "quan hệ giữa Trung Quốc và Nhật Bản rất căng thẳng", "Brazil thắng với tỉ số 1-0", etc. In fact, "nước" is not used very often at all (I personally barely use it). It usually goes with Sino-Vietnamese country names that contain 1 syllable such as Anh, Nga or Mỹ, but only occasionally (well, you do get a lot of hits on Google, but that's not the case); I guess that is to make the name sound a little "better" (two-syllabled Vietnamese words might be the most common). It should not be considered to be in compound with the country names, i.e. I don't think "nước Anh" or "nước Nga" are valid entries.
2. If you think it's valid to treat "Doitsu-jin" (ドイツ人) or "Doitsu-go" (ドイツ語) in Japanese as individual words, I think it would be no problem to do that to "người Việt" or "tiếng Việt".Fumiko Take (talk) 04:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Cảm ơn, Fumiko-san :) I won't make entries with nước but I may with người and tiếng in the future, as I did with người Nga, tiếng Nga was created by a bot. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

gọi, xe tắc xiEdit


Could you check them, please? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev Lol, check what, exactly? ばかFumikotalk 03:52, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

For accuracy, of course, my Vietnamese is very basic. :). If nothing strikes you as incorrect, then it's OK. gọi could use etymology, too, if known. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:00, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev I asked you that because I haven't seen anything wrong about those entries. Keep up the good work! ばかFumikotalk 04:25, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Translation requestsEdit

Hi Fumiko-san,

There's a rise in Category:Translation requests (Vietnamese) made by Hippietrail. Not sure if you wish to serve any of them but some are important and useful terms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad too help when available. ばかFumikotalk 01:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. These giọng (vi) (voice), tiếng (vi) (language) have to be giọng (vi) (voice), tiếng (vi) (language). Please "Qualifier:" field, not "Transliteration:". :)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:09, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Okay. ばかFumikotalk 01:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Australia in VietnameseEdit

Hi Fumiko-san,

You have removed the Vietnamese section I made. Isn't it the alternative spelling of Ô-xtrây-li-a? According to the Vietnamese Wiktionary and Wikipedia, "Australia" is also a Vietnamese word. Do you think they are wrong? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:11, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev Although the practice of adopting foreign spellings is very common, it is still unclear whether that's the "proper" and "official" way to borrowing terms or not. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Some linguists don't even call adopted English spellings loanwords, but just "English words used in Vietnamese contexts". I think it's better not to treat "Australia" as a Vietnamese word, for consistency. I can very well say "Cool quá đi! Nhạc nghe epic thiệt!", but I don't think there's anyone who would agree that "cool" and "epic" are Vietnamese words. They are just "English words used in Vietnamese contexts". Treating "Australia" as a Vietnamese word may lead to problems, because that kind of practice can make virtually every English word Vietnamese. ばかFumikotalk 13:21, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I see your point, thanks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

tủ ướp lạnh, phòng ướp lạnhEdit

Hi Fumiko,

Would you say these two merit full entries, just like tủ lạnh? Just want to make sure. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:22, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev tủ lạnh is just a household device, so it's easy to determine. As for tủ ướp lạnh and phòng ướp lạnh, not so easy, at least for me. Damn, now you see how sucky the modern Vietnamese spelling is? Sorry, I can't help you with this. ばかFumikotalk 02:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
It does cause even more problems for learners, when you don't know the word boundaries. It makes some sense to me, though. It's not easy to decide, since most Vietnamese syllables have a separate meaning. Well, Vietnamese is not the only language like this - Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Lao, Burmese, etc. don't use spaces, which is the same as using spaces between each syllable in this case as with Vietnamese, which also makes definition of a word for these languages harder, for us, it's Wiktionary:CFI and transliteration, e.g. I don't know if Thai ต้มยำ (tom yum) should be transliterated as "dtômyam" or "dtôm yam", it's one word but it makes sense to break it up into etymological units - "to boil" + "to mix" (ต้ม + ยำ). If Thai was written in Roman letters, would they spell it "dtômyam", "dtôm-yam" or "dtôm yam"? :)
I suggest to make a choice easier by using selected (approved) dictionaries - if a word appears in a dictionary (not English to Vietnamese but the other way around), then we could include it and maybe some other criteria. If you don't have strong objections I might make those entries, anyway (with a reference) but I can only find these two in English-Vietnamese dictionaries. They can be deleted later, if they fail CFI. Sorry for the long message. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Fair point. I find it a little easier to see word boundaries in Chinese even though I don't really speak Chinese, since word orders, classifiers and markers are pretty much straightforward; in Vietnamese however, you can hardly tell classifiers and markers apart from other words, and the word orders are just downright messy since the Vietnamese have borrowed a lot of Chinese words and phrases and haven't modified them whatsoever. ばかFumikotalk 04:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi, according to the Dictionarium Annamiticum Lusitanum et Latinum it says that the word should be ꞗĕào (could you also perhaps help fix-up the article?) instead. Do you happen to have another source? DerekWinters (talk) 06:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@DerekWinters Ugh, nope. I created it from the link on B with flourish. I guess someone got it wrong. ばかFumikotalk 12:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
@DerekWinters P/s: No they didn't, as seen here. There must have been some sort of typo in the dictionary itself. ばかFumikotalk 12:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Wait but your file is the same as mine... Page 44 of yours shows ꞗĕào. But also, with the low falling tone on the 'a' in vào, it should (right?) make sense for the it to have been ꞗĕào. Also, would you rather have Middle Vietnamese in chu nom or quoc ngu? Most of the literature by the Vietnamese seems to have been done in chu nom, but there is some stuff (including this dictionary) done in quoc ngu. DerekWinters (talk) 15:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
@DerekWinters I'm not saying I'm right. Look at that very page I refer you to, it's there. I'm saying that there might be a typo in the Dictionarium itself. You are very welcome to request that the entry I created be deleted, or you can make it a redirect page.
I'm not sure if I have the right to have the so-called Middle Vietnamese in a specific script. I'm not quite an expert on those things. Chữ Nôm might have been favored at that point of history, but as far as I know, it was never standardized. If we were to have Middle Vietnamese in Chữ Nôm, what would be the standard? A given syllable can be represented by multiple different characters, for example chó can be represented by 犬, 犾, 㹥, 𤝹, 𤠚 or 𦢞. ばかFumikotalk 03:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


Hullo. Would you like to translate this word? --Romanophile (talk) 10:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Romanophile We can use verbs such as "nói mỉa, mỉa mai" as if they were nouns (similar to English verb-ings), or we can add "sự" before them. ばかFumikotalk 10:17, 16 May 2015 (UTC)


Please see Wiktionary:About given names and surnames#Inclusion, the last line, and entries like Lassie, Fido, Tiddles. There are no categories for names of animals. "A common name for female dogs" might be a better definition than "given name". I assume Mi-lu is common? Do male and female dogs have different names in Vietnamese? Thank you for your entries for Vietnamese names.--Makaokalani (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Makaokalani Well fair enough, I just didn't know where to look for that information. Mi-lu should be common because I learned it before I even knew it was French. ばかFumikotalk 12:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Vietnamese etymologyEdit

Hi Fumiko Take,

I've seen that you've added some Vietnamese etymologies.

Where did you learn about Vietnamese etymology?

I'm interested to learn for myself.

Deschutron (talk) 06:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

@Deschutron Technically speaking, I've never learned about it. I simply extract data from Mon-Khmer comparative dictionary for etymologies of many so-called "native" words. I also use a book for etymologies of loanwords. I also google for etymologies of place names. Some words are (sort of) obviously Sino-Vietnamese, so I just need to look for the proper Han characters here. There've been some lucky guesses on the etymology in question, such as of phù thuỷ. ばかFumikotalk 07:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Deschutron P/s: As for names derived from Russian, they are just guesses, based on the mere fact that Russian was once a trend in Vietnam, and many Vietnamese have lived and studied in Russia. ばかFumikotalk 07:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Deschutron P/s: Compound words are pretty much straightforward, and they're basically homework. ばかFumikotalk 08:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Fumiko Take: Thankyou for the references.
I've also been reading about Vietnamese etymology.
I've seen the Mon-Khmer comparative dictionary. It's a great resource.
I've also used The Tower of Babel Project, and for Han-Viet readings, hanviet.org.
I've been thinking of putting etymologies I think I've found on Wiktionary, but I don't know how to make sure that they're accurate and referenced enough.
How do you judge whether an etymology is good enough to put on Wiktionary?
Deschutron (talk) 08:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Deschutron Thanks for the starling website. Good to know about it.
The comparative dictionary is pretty reliable. Other than a few typos, its content has been contributed by well-known linguistics such as Michel Ferlus, H.L. Shorto and Paul Sidwell. These authors are frequently cited in in linguistic papers. "Native" Vietnamese root words are all reconstructed, so it's basically impossible to make sure they're all accurate, since different authors use different ways of reconstruction. You can always cite the sources to make your work more reliable, but bear in mind some sources are stated specifically not to be cited, 'cause they may be a work in progress and less reliable than others. I trust my book 'cause it was written by a linguist who work at the Institute of Linguistics. I don't learn about etymology so I don't usually judge what's good enough, except for some BS like this. Sometimes just a little common sense will help. It's great that you're giving a thought before you start doing the thing; I've been through many ridiculous and false pieces of information which are typical for a wiki website. ばかFumikotalk 10:08, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Thankyou for your thoughts, and the etymologies. Deschutron (talk) 00:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Translations from non-English entriesEdit

Hi Fumiko,

Non-English don't get translations, they should only be in English entries.

(BTW, sorry I didn't answer you ping on Han tu entries - I just started a contract, was too busy but I'll get back on this.)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Got it. ばかFumikotalk 04:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


Hey buddy, it is probably possible to automate sorting in various Vietnamese templates. It seems the steps required are:

  1. Strip all diacritics;
  2. Strip all spaces;
  3. Convert everything to lowercase.

What do you think? Wyang (talk) 23:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

@Wyang Not really, that's just my way, since we've got no decent-looking sorting for Vietnamese entries yet. I'd recommend the sorting employed in dictionaries published by the Institute of Linguistics and Vietnam National University Publishing House as a model:

  • Letters with non-tonal diacritics are considred as letters on their own right: Ăă, Ââ, Đđ, Êê, Ôô, Ơơ, Ưư.
  • Capital and small letters are treated equally.
  • Alphabetic order: Aa, Ăă, Ââ, Bb, Cc, Dd, Đđ, Ee, Êê, Gg, Hh, Ii, Kk, Ll, Mm, Nn, Oo, Ôô, Ơơ, Pp, Qq, Rr, Ss, Tt, Uu, Ưư, Vv, Xx, Yy.
    (Note: I'm not sure about Ff, Jj, Ww, Zz which are not usually considered "Vietnamese" and not listed in the said dictionaries)
  • Letters with tonal diacritics are not considered as seperate letters, are listed after letters with no diacritics in the following order:
  1. Huyền: Àà, Ằằ, Ầầ, Èè, Ềề, Ìì, Òò, Ồồ, Ờờ, Ùù, Ừừ, Ỳỳ
  2. Hỏi: Ảả, Ẳẳ, Ẩẩ, Ẻẻ, Ểể, Ỉỉ, Ỏỏ, Ổổ, Ởở, Ủủ, Ửử, Ỷỷ
  3. Ngã: Ãã, Ẵẵ, Ẫẫ, Ẽẽ, Ễễ, Ĩĩ, Õõ, Ỗỗ, Ỡỡ, Ũũ, Ữữ, Ỹỹ
  4. Sắc: Áá, Ắắ, Ấấ, Éé, Ếế, Íí, Óó, Ốố, Ớớ, Úú, Ứứ, Ýý
  5. Nặng: Ạạ, Ặặ, Ậậ, Ẹẹ, Ệệ, Ịị, Ọọ, Ộộ, Ợợ, Ụụ, Ựự, Ỵỵ
ばかFumikotalk 04:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
@Wyang P/S: By the way, can you help with the sorting of Nivkh, Muong and Rade entries? ばかFumikotalk 05:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid this is too complicated for me. As far as I know, other languages using diacritics simply disregard the diacritics during sorting, and this is achieved using the sort_key function in language data modules such as Module:languages/data2 (See Category:French nouns for effect). Stripping all the tonal diacritics shouldn't be difficult, but sorting them according to original tones is tricky - one possibility could be using auxillary tonal numbers, e.g. "gà công nghiệp" -> "ga2 công1 nghiêp6". I'm not sure this would sort them in the way intended, and how to incorporate it into the existing infrastructure (unless it is in {{vi-IPA}}). You may want to ask in the Tea Room to see if other people have better suggestions. Wyang (talk) 05:45, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

大鹿#Japanese categoryEdit

Re: Magic, please add a sense line under the appropriate etymology when you get a chance. TIA (sense 2), ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Cheers, thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Feedback on Japanese entry formattingEdit

Thank you for your extensive work recently on Japanese entries. We don't have very many JA editors, and I appreciate your participation.

I've noticed some trends in your editing that I wanted to bring up, in the hopes of better consistency across all JA entries.

  1. Apostrophes in sort arguments
    These are only appropriate when the very first mora has 濁音 (one apostrophe at the end of the sort arg string) or 半濁音 (two apostrophes at the end of the sort arg string). These are workarounds for collation (sorting) bugs in the underlying MediaWiki software. Examples:
    • ゲット (getto) should have the sort arg けっと'. Otherwise, it shows up in any category index under げ, which is not how Japanese dictionaries work. Instead, we want it sorted under け and collated as if it were spelled けっと in hiragana, but it should appear after any entries that actually are spelled けっと in hiragana. The apostrophe on the end ensures that this entry is collated as desired.
    • ペット (petto) should have the sort arg へっと''. Otherwise, it shows up incorrectly indexed at ぺ. All 半濁音 entries should be collated the same way as 濁音 entries, except they should come after the 濁音. Adding two apostrophes does the trick.
    • (tabi) should have the sort arg たび. The initial mora is 清音, so collation by first mora works just fine. 濁音 or 半濁音 on any other mora doesn't cause any problems in the MediaWiki index creation process, so we don't need any special handling.
  2. head arguments in POS headers
    We don't use these in JA entries. This feature was apparently added to the POS header templates to allow for cases like Latin or Russian, where the POS line shows additional diacritics that are not present in the headword itself. Have a look at россиянин (rossijanin) or solido for examples. Note that you won't see the head parameter if you look at the wikisource -- the head functionality has been absorbed into the language-specific templates.
    One alternate use case is to link to specific words in a longer phrase, such as at get out. This is a workaround for cases where the etymology is not explicitly given. For JA entries, this use case is strongly discouraged in favor of providing full etymologies instead.
  3. Multiple readings in a single POS
    While it is now technically possible to add multiple readings to a single POS header (after the JA POS headers were updated a few months ago to include an altread parameter), this is very poor practice: each distinct reading of a Japanese headword has its own independent etymology, and it often also has distinct usage details.
    Lumping multiple distinct readings into one POS header is confusing and inaccurate. For instance, {{ja-noun|とんぼ|トンボ|とんぼう|トンボウ|hhira=とんばう}} suggests that とんばう is the historical hiragana rendering of modern とんぼ, which is incorrect -- とんぼ derives from とんぼう, which derives from とんばう, so とんばう is only the historical hiragana for modern とんぼう.
  4. Katakana use
    In general, only use katakana in POS headers for terms often written in katakana (such as biological terms). For pronunciation templates, only use katakana if the headword itself is given in katakana. Don't give katakana for obsolete or archaic terms and readings.
  5. Periods in kana strings
    Periods in kana strings are only used when the kana is transformed by the template into romaji. This is mostly done by POS headers, {{ja-usex}}, {{ja-r}}, and similar templates. The purposes of these periods is to separate two kana with the same vowel value, when the two vowels should be rendered separately and not as one 長音, such as when the two vowels occur in different morphophonemic units. Examples:
    • 拾う > ひろ.う -- this forces the POS header template to render this in romaji as hirou, instead of hirō. The final u is the verb ending, which must be rendered separately.
    • 疲労 > ひろう -- this allows the POS header to render the romaji the default way, as hirō. This is correct in this case, as the final う is part of the same morphophonemic unit as the preceding ろ.
    Adding periods in other places doesn't do anything but clutter up the wikitext. ひ.ろう is treated exactly the same as ひろう.
  6. Yomi argument values
    Our handling of yomi is more rudimentary than I'd like at present, but it is what it is. In general, do not add yomi to the various templates ({{ja-kanjitab}}, {{ja-pron}}, etc.) unless the entire headword string matches that yomi value. Examples:
    • For 蜉蝣 (fuyū), the fu reading for the first character is kan'yoon, but the reading for the second character is kan'on. Consequently, the only fitting yomi here is yomi=on for on'yomi.
    • For 伊弉諾 (Izanagi), the first character has a goon and kan'yon of い, but the ざなぎ portion doesn't clearly belong to either of the remaining kanji. In this case, yomi=irr is correct, as this reading (as a whole) is irregular.
    • For 迦具土 (Kagutsuchi), the first two characters have on'yomi of ka and gu, and the last character has a kun'yomi of tsuchi. These readings individually are regular, so yomi=irr isn't correct here. However, this isn't jūbakoyomi either, as that category is for two-character compounds where the first is on'yomi and the second is kun'yomi, and (in general) the meanings also match the combined meaning of the whole term. In this case, we have too many characters in an uneven distribution, and in fact, the characters are used purely for their phonetic values -- the kagu part here is an OJP root verb, the tsu is the OJP version of modern possessive (no), and the chi part is another OJP root that matches the chi in (chikara). So in this case, it is best (given the current state of our templates) to leave out the yomi parameter altogether.
  7. Whitespace
    Entry format in the wikisource is flexible with regard to how that wikisource is rendered into HTML by the software. There are still some general conventions maintained here at EN WT as a courtesy to our human editors.
    • Space after line-initial wikitext:
    Please maintain a single space after * # : and other wikitext at the start of a line.
    • Empty lines between sections:
    Please maintain a single empty line before header lines (such as ====Noun====), between POS templates and the sense lines, before the start of the category section at the end of an entry, and between the categories and the inter-wiki links.
  8. Alternative forms
    In almost all JA entries, these go after the ====Pronunciation==== sections. In kana entries, alt forms may go at the top of the entry if all of the alt forms apply to all given etymologies and readings.
  9. Entries spelled in kanji that have both hira and kata readings in the POS templates
    List the hiragana first, then the katakana. The POS templates should handle this better in future.
  10. Glosses and definitions
    For better usability, be sure to add a gloss (short definition) even on {{alternative spelling of}} sense lines that direct the user to another entry for the main spelling.
  11. Okurigana in {{ja-kanjitab}}
    The o1, o2, o3 etc. arguments are intended for okurigana (i.e. verb endings), not particles. Examples:
    • 振袖 (furisode) would have {{ja-kanjitab|yomi=k|ふ|o1=り|そで}}, since the り is the verb ending in the kun'yomi for the verb 振る (furu).
    • 海神 (watatsumi) would have {{ja-kanjitab|yomi=k|わた|み}}, since the つ is actually a particle that is simply left implied, and is not part of the kun'yomi of either of these characters.
    • 上関 (Kaminoseki) would have {{ja-kanjitab|yomi=k|かみ|せき}}, since the の is again a particle, and not part of the kun'yomi of either of these characters.

I know this is a lot. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

Happy editing, and thanks again for your help in expanding our coverage of JA terms! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Eirikr Thank you for spending time to write all of this ^-^. I do have some questions that I didn't know whom I could ask. Well yeah, an admin, but I didn't know which one, lol.
  1. I don't really understand how the sorting works. I've seen entries where all dakuten are stripped off and small kana are replaced by their big counterparts. And there are also entries where only the dakuten of the first kana is removed. What's that about? Say, how do you sort these made up words: katsuha, katsuba, katsupa, gatsuha, gatsuba, gatsupa, kahha, kabba, kappa, gahha, gabba, gappa, katsuhata, katsubata, katsupata, shiya, sha, fua, fa?
  2. Periods, done. But when exactly do you add spaces or hyphens between kana in {{ja-noun}} or {{ja-pos}}? Does 鴨嘴 need spaces?
  3. There are very limited useful sources on Japanese etymology, so I'm not that confident to give full etymologies for many words (especially if they're written with kanji only; for all I know they could have been either borrowed from Chinese or coined by the Japanese themselves). Also, I thought it'd be useful to add the head argument, for long compounds such as 国際補助語. But if this is discouraged, do I have to add an empty Etymology section with {{rfe}} or something?
  4. Does kanyoon mean the same as kanyoyomi? It looks like Nihon (日本) is not kanyoon and is kanyoyomi at the same time.
  5. Why isn't jubakoyomi 重箱読み qualified for jubakoyomi? Clearly, the first kanji is read with onyomi; the second with kunyomi (and so does the third). What exactly is the criteria? Are jubakoyomi and yutoyomi applied strictly to words of two Kanji with no kana in between? According to the word lists on this page and this page, that doesn't seem to be the case.
  6. How to create entries for historical hiragana? Is historical katakana a thing?
  7. There may be some bugs with the {{ja-pron}}. For example:
  • (Irregular reading)
    • (Tokyo) ッシュツ [shìsshútsú] (Heiban – [0])
    • IPA(key): [ɕiɕːɯ̟ᵝt͡sɨᵝ]

--> Does any Japanese actually geminate [ɕʲ]? Sounds so unreal.

--> How to seperate no from usagi? There's no actual long noo in this pronunciation, right? Adding periods or spaces doesn't seem to work on this template. (By the way, how can I exclude the [[Category:Japanese terms with IPA pronunciation]] from this page?) ばかFumikotalk 02:20, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

  • All good questions. I just got some contract work in so I don't have time to answer in full right now, unfortunately. A few quick responses:
  1. Sorting and kana strings is a big, complicated subject -- complicated by the fact that MediaWiki's back-end support for Japanese is spotty at best. I've personally tested first-mora changes to see how indexing works, but I haven't tested as much how differences in later morae affect indexing, not enough to fully answer your questions. I know how sorting _should_ work, based on Japanese collation standards, but that's not strictly how MediaWiki is implemented, unfortunately. I'll look into this further.
  2. Spaces happen between clearly distinct words, where the whole is commonly considered to be a phrase consisting of multiple words. This gets a little deeper into Japanese norms, and is a bit fuzzy, inasmuch as written Japanese itself doesn't use whitespace much. Hyphens we've generally avoided, but I know some are still floating around, and I've done my own experimentation with them here and there. Generally, hyphens have happened when a compound term is composed of mostly-discrete individual terms, but where one of the later terms in the compound has rendaku.
    Re: 鴨嘴, I'd say this is probably treated as a single term (i.e. no spaces in romaji), albeit a term that originated as a phrase.
  3. Re: etyms, understood. One option is to give it a shot at using {{compound}} and the like, and if you're really uncertain, you can always flag an entry with {{rfe}}, {{rfv-etymology}}, or even just {{attention}}.
  4. Kanyoon should mean the same as kanyoyomi. The on just means sound, while the yomi means reading -- in the context of kanji, that's basically the same thing. I'll have a look at the 日本 entry to try to figure out what's going on. (It's probably just something with one of the templates.)
  5. Jūbakoyomi and yutōyomi, as I've understood the terms, refer to two-character compounds. This matches the underlying etyma as well: 重箱 and 湯桶 are each two-character terms. As soon as you get a longer compound, like three or four or more kanji, jūbakoyomi and yutōyomi stop working so well as descriptors. I've proposed a different model in the past for {{ja-kanjitab}}, that would allow us to individually specify the readings for each kanji in a way that would work for longer terms, but no one has undertaken the task of recoding the template yet. (Granted, that will be a complicated task, and we're all just volunteers -- my comment here isn't a complaint, just a recognition of how things are happening.)
  6. Re: historical hiragana, we haven't yet come up with a consensus view for how, or even if, we should create these entries. We've been adding hhira to entries so far, so that anyone who looks up an old spelling can still find something (provided we've created the corresponding entry).
    Historically, phonetic Japanese (i.e. kana) was written using a mix of standard hiragana and man'yōgana in the long Tokugawa period, then mostly in katakana in the Meiji and Taisho eras, with the spelling shifting over to standardized hiragana some time in (I think) the 1940's spelling reforms. The historical spellings would have been written in either hiragana or katakana, depending on the time period and the individual writer's preferences. We've standardized on hiragana here at EN WT.
    Note that the historical spellings were probably phonetic when they first appeared. So (uo) with the historical kana spelling of うを would have been pronounced more like uwo. Likewise, 創造 (sōzō) was pronounced closer to sauzau earlier in history, and that is reflected in the historical kana spelling of さうざう. The 1940's spelling reforms updated kana spellings to more closely match modern pronunciations.
  7. And there are definitely bugs in {{ja-pron}}, unfortunately. :)   It looks like you've discovered one there on the 野兎 entry -- giving a kana string of の.うさぎ should produce the expected romaji and IPA spellings, distinguishing the o and the u, but it doesn't. I think User:Wyang is the current expert on the code in {{ja-pron}}. (Linking his username here should ping him, so hopefully he'll see this part of the thread.)
    FWIW, there are geminate [ɕ] sounds in Japanese: 出社 (shussha), ずっしり (zusshiri), どっしゃぶり (dosshaburi), and so forth.
Aaand, I really need to get cracking on my work. Hope the above helps somewhat in the meantime! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
PS: other (at least semi-) active JA editors include Anatoli, Shinji, and Haplology, for starters. You can browse through the users listed at Category:User_ja, and their respective Contributions pages, to get some further idea of who is active.
PPS: I'm embarrassed that I forgot to mention Nibiko, who is also quite active. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:09, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

"- and allies" CategoriesEdit

I named these categories because I couldn't think of a better way to word it, but I've since come up with "- family plants". Since you're the only one other than me who's ever used a few of these categories, I'm going to be simply swapping them in the single entries that use them and will be deleting the old categories, without the usual process. Since you have used these categories, I thought it would be a good idea to let you know, though. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Good to know. ばかFumikotalk 01:01, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Etymology at 社会#JapaneseEdit

Heya Fumiko --

I noticed in this edit that you'd added an etymology for 社会. The history of this term is still a little unclear to me, but from reading ja:w:社会#.E8.AA.9E.E6.BA.90 and http://gogen-allguide.com/si/syakai.html, it's pretty clear that this term did not originate from a Chinese term meaning “religious public gathering”.

Could you see about reworking that? I'm short on time and about to crash for the night, and my schedule for the next few days keeps me too busy to do much here.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@Eirikr I deduced the gloss from Thiều Chửu's dictionary, which says 社會 was some sort of a gathering involving sacrificing and stuff, and also cites 白兔記. That kind of makes sense given that the gloss of 社 is "sacrifice to the spirit of the soil". Well maybe "religious" is rather obscure, so how about "gathering where people offered sacrifices to the (soil?) god"? ばかFumikotalk 07:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
@Eirikr P/S: Also, according to Hanyu Wailaici Cidian (Dictionary of Chinese Loanwords), the Chinese 社會 was borrowed from the Japanese 社会, which was originally borrowed from "Ancient Chinese". ばかFumikotalk 07:56, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with the purported meaning of the Chinese term in ancient times. What mostly hit me was this line on the JA WP page:


So if the very word 社会 did not even exist in Japanese until 1826 or so, I suspect that the ancient Chinese meaning (much more likely the Middle Chinese meaning, since that was the linguistic period of Chinese from which most kango derive) isn't terribly relevant to the Japanese term, unless that same meaning was still extant when this term was borrowed.
... Or, alternatively, the JA WP description is misleading, and there was a term 社会 that existed in Japanese previously, but just with a different meaning -- perhaps more like the derivation of 自由, where an existing term was repurposed with a changed meaning to describe a newer concept. But if this latter possibility was the case, then what was the previous Japanese meaning of this term?
Shogakukan's KDJ states that the ultimate derivation is from the zh:w:近思錄 (Jìnsīlù) (ja:w:近思録 Kinshiroku in Japanese), a Confucian text published in 1176 as an introduction to the Cheng-Zhu school. The KDJ entry gives a quote from this work:

郷民為社会、為立科条、旌別善悪、使有勧有恥 (in KDJ) ---- 鄉民爲社會,爲立科條,旌別善惡,使有勸有恥。 (in Wikisource here)

The meaning by this point in Chinese history seems more like community, in a smaller sense. Can you find anything more about this? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
@Eirikr Wow, I had no idea this was this complicated. I always went with the second theory which says a handful Japanese terms that were introduced into Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese were actually taken from "Ancient Chinese", with new meanings assigned to them (such as 博士、文化、革命,共和、物理, etc.). Perhaps up until the 19th century, the Japanese meanings of those terms were still, to some extent, similar to the original ancient Chinese meanings (博士 wasn't "Ph.D.", but simply "scholar")? As for 社會, perhaps at some point in history, it developped a new meaning by extension, from just a "gathering" (or "cult"?) to a greater concept, "community", and when the Japanese tried to translate Western terms using older expressions, they made it even greater as "society"?
How about this definition from Kanjigen: ①昔、土地の神を中心として二十五戸を一つの単位とした、その集まり。また、社日をきめその日に行った部落の会合。②共同生活の集団。③世の中。世間。?
Or this explanation of the quotes from 近思録 from Nipponica: この場合には、社会とは、土地の神を祀るために地域の共通の祭祀の場に集合した人々、ひいては地域集団をさすものであったが、一定の土地とそこに住む人々との情的・社会的結合が強調されたため、地域的閉鎖性を乗り越えるには至らなかった。? ばかFumikotalk 03:38, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Korean romanizationEdit

Please note that when we give just one romanised form for a Korean word on the English Wiktionary, we do so using RR. Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, what Metaknowledge said. Fumiko-san, sorry for simply reverting your edit. It was easier that way using a mobile. BTW, the Korean and Japanese name for Georgia doesn't change overnight just because it has become official, not by Wiktionary criteria, anyway. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:23, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Okay. No need to be sorry. ばかFumikotalk 07:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


Hi there,

I wanted to thank you for creating an entry on the word 'phê' – the slang meaning you provided isn't in any of the dictionaries that I have access to, so it's great to have it here! :)

Would you say that 'high' and 'stoned' could be considered appropriate English translations of 'phê'? I'd like to add a Vietnamese translation to the relevant entries.

Thanks! :) Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 12:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken I'm glad to help. People say "phê" when they're satisfied and pleased, like when they are given a massage or simply on drugs. "High" sounds good, "stoned" sounds okay. ばかFumikotalk 07:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 17:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


Hi again, could you clarify the definition of the word 'dâm' you wrote a while back? You defined it as "being a pervert". The definition sounds very strange to me – what does it mean exactly? 'Pervert', 'perverted', 'to commit perverse acts', or maybe something else entirely? Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 13:48, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for not being able to express clearly. "dâm" does not necessarily mean "perverted", given that the definition of "perverted" is "of, relating to, or practicing unusual or "kinky" sex". Just thinking about sex too much or having too much interest in it is enough for you to be called "dâm", that is, said sex isn't necessarily "kinky". But maybe it's just me, maybe "perverted" is adequate. I'd be grateful if you can catch the meaning and give a clearer definition. ばかFumikotalk 14:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, if we're talking about an excessive interest in – or fixation on – sex, then I'd say a more correct translation would be 'lecherous' or 'sex-crazed'. Would you say that these are appropriate English equivalents of 'dâm'? Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 14:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
@Pfftallofthemaretaken Brilliant! ばかFumikotalk 01:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Alright, thanks! Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 12:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

ngọn đuốcEdit

Hi, I have just created an entry on ngọn đuốc, and I'm not sure I did the right thing. Is it a synonym for đuốc, or is ngọn a classifier in this case? Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 16:16, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken I would go with the latter. The noun is "đuốc". "ngọn" functions just like "cái" or "chiếc". ばかFumikotalk 02:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks! Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 06:28, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


Hi, me again, I was wondering—have people in VN started using #ĐMCS, as an initialism, in speech? It's hard to assess the popularity of the trend just by reading about it on the Internet. I was wondering whether it's too soon or not to create an entry on this. that guy 22:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken It's profanity for "địt mẹ cộng sản" (fuck communism/-ists). It's horrendous and might get you in jail if you say it, so I'm not sure if it's that popular to be added to Wiktionary. ばかFumikotalk 02:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I do know what it stands for, it's just that if I created địt mẹ cộng sản, it would probably be deemed a sum-of-parts and deleted. Therefore, I wanted to establish whether the initialism is used in speech. I see that a lot of people write 'ĐMCS' on all kinds of horizontal and vertical surfaces, and even on parts of their bodies. :) But I'm not sure whether it's enough to add the term to the dictionary. It should probably be used in speech too. Given the nature of the political regime in Vietnam, I don't think too many people would be dropping "địt mẹ cộng sản" in their everyday conversations on a regular basis, so perhaps they could substitute it with the initialism 'ĐMCS' , given that it's already in use in writing. Sort of like people using fubar in conversations in English. Have you ever heard anyone saying 'ĐMCS' yet? (I haven't.) that guy 13:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken Maybe I have some times, but not enough that I remember clearly. Youngsters sometimes drop initialisms, maybe due to English Internet slang influence, but those are still not very popular like "OMG" or "WTF". There might be anti-communist youngsters from overseas (who are rumored to be in the US) who do that more often, but for all I know, that practice is not popular in Vietnam. ばかFumikotalk 01:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, the author of the song that started the whole thing is in fact in the US, but most of those who use the phrase (and by 'use' I mean 'write on horizontal and vertical surfaces, as well as parts of their bodies') seem to be in Vietnam. Anyways, from what you're saying it looks like it's probably too early to add the initialism as an entry. Thanks for your input! :) that guy 11:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)


Hi, one of your definitions of Giang is 'a female given name' . I'm pretty sure I've met guys named Giang, and a Google Images search of "Nguyễn Văn Giang" (in quotes) returns lots of male faces. Could the name actually be gender-neutral? that guy 19:10, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Awright. Although Giang is still a very girly name. ばかFumikotalk 03:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)


Hello, I saw you add a lot of information onto Appendix:Proto-Mon-Khmer/ɗaak. Could you tell me where these informations come from? Thank you in advance. Pamputt (talk) 07:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

sealang ばかFumikotalk 12:28, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Appendix:1000 most common Vietnamese wordsEdit

Hi Fumiko-san,

I have downloaded this list from the Internet. I can't tell if it's good yet. If it's useless, it can be deleted, if translations are mostly wrong, I can get rid of the "English" column. If it can be used, feel free to edit it the way want. It shows that some very frequent words are missing. I have just added này. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:19, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. ばかFumikotalk 00:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
@Atitarev Actually this list is way more about English than it is about Vietnamese, lol. ばかFumikotalk 00:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
I thought so too. It has translations from English, which are SoP in Vietnamese. I picked some missing basic words, though. Monosyllabic words are pain in the butt - not sure how to add them properly, especially with numerous etymologies, e.g. đứng or đặt. Maybe I should add {{attention|please expand}} and {{rfe|lang=vi}}? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
That's not a very well-constructed list but it's nice that someone put the effort in it. Please do whatever you think you should do. Thanks. ばかFumikotalk 01:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I am now convinced that the list has no science or serious research behind it. It's not a real frequency list but a handmade one based on some common English words. I'll let sit for some, maybe get some useful common words and then delete it.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:08, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

|hidx= (Japanese) and |sort= (Chinese)Edit

hidx and sort are not needed (does absolutely nothing). —suzukaze (tc) 09:47, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

thanks for the info. ばかFumikotalk 09:49, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Japanese entry reworkingsEdit

Hello Fumiko --

I appreciate your work in reformatting and generally cleaning up Japanese entries. Thank you!

I have a couple requests for you for future:

  • Please do not remove glosses.
The user base for the EN Wiktionary is assumed to read English, but not necessarily any other language. We therefore provide English glosses for synonyms, antonyms, related terms, derived terms, and the like. When reformatting such sections, please do not remove glosses if any are present, and if you have the time, please add glosses if any are missing.
  • Please do not remove source references.
If another editor has added a reference to an entry, please do not remove that reference without checking it. If you check that reference and discover a discrepancy, please note this in the edit summary.
  • Please put ===Alternative forms=== after the ===Etymology=== and ===Pronunciation=== sections.
Alternative forms in Japanese entries are subordinate to the etymology and pronunciation, as a single spelling may have several different etymologies and pronunciations, with the alternative forms dependent on those. For consistency across the Japanese entries, please put ===Alternative forms=== after the ===Etymology=== and ===Pronunciation=== sections, even if an entry only has one etymology and pronunciation.
  • If a pronunciation represents an irregular reading, please mark it as “irregular”.
For instance, while the phonetic process is well-understood where by 蜜柑 (mikkan) becomes 蜜柑 (mikan), the mi reading for is irregular, and should be marked as such.

If you have any questions or concerns, I am happy to discuss any of the above; please just let me know.

Thanks again for your work! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:19, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

@Eirikr I do have some questions. Entries for Japanese alternative spellings tend to have glosses which I don't see in similar entries for other languages; why does Japanese get special treatment? Also, glosses tend to be highly explanatory and clunky, and poorly formatted too (for some reasons, someone prefers to italicized kana and use colons instead of putting the damn things inside a built-in template), which doesn't really make sense since we have a whole entry dedicated for the words; aren't glosses supposed to be succinct and brief? ばかFumikotalk 01:21, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Re: glosses, this isn't so much special treatment as it is instead being thorough, with an eye on site usability. Requiring users to click through to get a gloss is poor usability. I agree that italicized kana is poor form; most Japanese glyphs look like rubbish in italics, no matter the font. I also agree that glosses should generally be brief; that said, if a linked term has multiple senses, it is acceptable to list those senses after the term, separated by semicolons. If the linked term has *lots* of senses, it is probably best to pare the list down to the more-commonly-used senses. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:34, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
@Eirikr I'd like to know what purpose glosses serve for synonymns and antonyms when users assumed to read English know that synonymns have the same meaning as the headword and antonymns have the opposite meaning? Fumiko, I hope you don't mind me posting this question on your talk page. I'm newer than you are to editing and I have found a lot of information Erikr and others have shared with you on your talk page very helpful. Do you know the answer to this? 馬太阿房 (talk) 20:21, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
I think I may have figured out the answer to my question. Maybe he is talking about kana glosses with their "English" romaji transliterations or just the romaji. 馬太阿房 (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Labels: "rare" vs. "obsolete"Edit

I just tweaked a set of your edits for the various kanji spellings of オランダ. "Obsolete" here at Wiktionary is used to mean that a given spelling, form, etc. is no longer used at all. The kanji spellings of オランダ certainly aren't common, but they *are* in occasional use, so "obsolete" is an incorrect label. I've changed "obsolete" back to "rare" for these entries. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:39, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

@Eirikr Wait, didn't you label them as "all obsolete"? In that case, just undo my edit. ばかFumikotalk 18:43, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
  • On the オランダ entry, it looks like Tsukuyone did in this edit. Shame on me for missing that in the Alt forms section this last go-through. I'll fix that part too then, and ping Tsukuyone re: the "obsolete" label. Thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:49, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


Hi. I reverted your edit at 眼鏡 as the information is easily verified [1][2][3]. Please consult sources before making such edits and be civil. I also changed your wording at 狐猴 and 여우원숭이, since linguistic "relatedness" is a separate concept. Also, Nam mô A Di Đà Phật is not a misreading. Thank you. Wyang (talk) 21:30, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if there is an online database/corpus for old Vietnamese texts, which would be very helpful since this word is obviously obsolete. The best resources I had access to were (new and old) dictionaries, in which I found the following:
  1. Dictionnaire Annamite–Français, par J. F. M. Génibrel (1898): [4]

NHÃN 1. (Mắt), œil, m. ... — kính, Lunette, lorgnette, loupe, f. 2. ...

  1. Việt-Nam Tự-điển, by Hội Khai-Trí Tiến-Đức (1931):

Nhãn 眼. Mắt. Có khi đọc là nhỡn ... Nhãn-kính 〇鏡. Kính đeo mắt: Mua đôi nhãn-kính. ‖ ...

  1. Đào Duy Anh, Hán–Việt Từ Điển (1932):

NHÃN 眼 Mắt – Lỗ hổng – Chỗ trọng yếu. ... — kính —鏡 Cái kính đeo mắt (lunettes). ...

This article explains a bit about the reflexes of 鏡 (cảnh, cánh, kính), and how it varies dialectally making use of examples including nhãn kính. Thanks. Wyang (talk) 10:10, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Regarding Nam mô A Di Đà Phật, this is an example of linguistic doublets. The character had only one pronunciation in Middle Chinese: mɨo, but as with many other instances of words of transcriptive or toponymous origin, the archaic pronunciation (m-) was conserved in any modern descendant which has lost this initial. Hence two Hán–Việt readings for this character: and (only in 南無). Same situation in Mandarin Chinese: and .
Từ điển Thiều Chửu: "Một âm là mô. Nam mô 南無, nguyên tiếng Phạm là Namanab, nghĩa là quy y là cung kính đỉnh lễ."
Từ Điển Trích Dẫn: "Một âm là mô. (Động) Nam mô 南無, nguyên tiếng Phạn là "Namah", nghĩa là quy y, cung kính đảnh lễ."
Wyang (talk) 10:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
These are published usages of the word nhãn kính, and would make this word easily pass Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion here on Wiktionary. As aforementioned, there doesn't seem to be a searchable old Vietnamese text corpus online, and in the absence of such resource attestation in multiple independent reputable dictionaries is sufficiently strong evidence for the word's past usage. The language of question is clearly Vietnamese, even if Chinese-influenced Vietnamese as you may argue, and no one would assert a word nhãn kính to be Chinese. This is probably a similar situation to phi cơ, which is unlikely to be understood by someone without a priori knowledge of the meaning of phi cơ. The template {{Sinoxenic-word}} is merely for showing Sinoxenic comparanda of a Han-script word, with no limitation to temporal, semantic and syntactical factors inherent to the comparanda. The fact that the word nhãn is restricted in usage should be noted as such in the entry itself, and does not preclude the inclusion of its obsolete compounds. Feel free to raise the attestability of this word at Wiktionary:Beer parlour if you have differing opinions.
Regarding the latter: Hán–Việt is a distinct system of readings with clear origins and correspondences in the standard forms of Chinese spoken around the Middle Chinese period, as opposed to pre-Middle Chinese readings (âm Hán cổ) or misreadings/nativised readings (Hán–Việt Việt hóa, which may be due to historical dialect influence). Labiodentalisation of Early Middle Chinese m in Late Middle Chinese is one of the main phonetic changes occurring in Middle Chinese, which explains why is treated as a Hán–Việt reading by dictionaries. Wyang (talk) 22:09, 3 March 2016 (UTC)


Hi. If you use the delete template without specifying a reason, it's not clear why the entry needs deleting. Could you explain please? Equinox 10:13, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Label - musiciEdit

Over at ピアノ, you'd asked, "what's wrong with musici?" That particular label has been deprecated, as indicated at the bottom of the page by the marker, Hidden category: Entries with deprecated labels. Generally, anything marked as deprecated should not be used. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:43, 20 May 2016 (UTC)


Over at ピアノ, you'd asked, "what's with the double space?" Double-spacing after sentence-final punctuation used to be the norm, and it is still preferred by a number of readers and writers, especially in monospace fonts. More at this Talk thread, among other places. Single-spacing after sentence-final punctuation is a relatively recent historical shift, imposed by fiat in HTML and XML processing. This markup-enforced spacing rule was relaxed with the addition of whitespace-handling options in CSS 2.1. I much prefer double-spacing in wikitext, as this makes it much easier for me to visually scan and quickly find the ends of sentences. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:43, 20 May 2016 (UTC)


Over at ピアノ, you'd removed various pieces from the <ref> tags in the etymology. This removal didn't do anything functionally. If you're hoping to shorten the wikicode as much as possible, you can change <ref name="DJR"></ref> into a self-closing tag as <ref name="DJR"/>. I use Edittools to insert lots of different wikicode snippets with single clicks, so I generally don't bother with this. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:43, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Lacquered words: The evolution of Vietnamese under Sinitic influences from the 1st century B.C.E. through the 17th century C.E.Edit

This may be of interest to you. I managed to obtain an electronic copy. The author did an evaluation of all of Wang Li's comparisons and a review of the whole borrowing history. It was a good read. Wyang (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. ばかFumikotalk 00:46, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

and readingsEdit

Thank you for the edit comment, that was helpful. Daijisen gives:


That's what I last checked, hence my confusion.

Meanwhile, Shogakukan's notation is:


I couldn't find anything clear from Daijirin in my local copy, but Weblio's version gives:

じょう ぢやう 【錠】 ・じやう 【 鏁 ▼・鎖▽】

So Daijisen seems to be misleading. That might ultimately be a formatting issue; sometimes the notation layout is so sparse as to be hard to read. Anyway, thanks again for the edit comment. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:15, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

@Eirikr This is how my copies of the sources display the entry
  • Kokugo Daijiten: じょう【鎖・錠】(ジャウ) (What???)
  • Daijisen: じょう【錠】ヂヤウ・【△鎖・鏁】ジヤウ
  • Super Daijirin: じょう ヂヤウ 【錠】 ・ ジヤウ 【鏁・鎖】
As you can see, Kokugo Daijiten is not that reliable. ばかFumikotalk 02:19, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
ばかFumikotalk 02:19, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

oe in khỏeEdit

I have a question for you: In the standard orthography of Vietnamese, would the word khỏe be spelled as khoẻ? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:12, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo There's no such thing as "the standard orthography" in this country. I'd recommend khoẻ, which is from the the standardized spelling for textbooks only. It's much more solid and regular, and there aren't many idiotically nonsensical exceptions like the popular spelling. ばかFumikotalk 11:17, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for answering, I changed a few entries accordingly. As a matter of fact, I moved plenty of entries to their proper forms. (I also wonder why you removed your reform spelling convention from your user page; it looks so nice.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:27, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Looking back at my reformed spelling, it was a waste of time. Nobody cares about spelling reform. We'll have to live with the etymological gi forever. ばかFumikotalk 11:32, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I could at least display the reformed spelling at my user page, if you want, so I could encourage at least some readers to give you their appreciation (I'll give you credit where due). --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:40, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Ha ha, that's very nice of you, and I appreciate that. But please don't. ばかFumikotalk 11:42, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
You could at least know, that God loves you and doesn't blame you for the mess this world is in. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:43, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Alternative B: Would you like to share your reform alphabet with Simon Ager of Omniglot? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 13:18, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
No, thanks. ばかFumikotalk 13:21, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm taking, that you wish to remain anonymous? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 13:48, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes. If I wished to publicize anything, I'd do it myself. ばかFumikotalk 01:59, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Chinese entriesEdit

The pronunciation section is not obligatoryoptional. —suzukaze (tc) 23:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

And? ばかFumikotalk 23:48, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Suzukaze means entries like 古元古代. You need to add {{attention}}, at least. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:58, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Okay. ばかFumikotalk 00:01, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

I was working on it, Mr. Wise-ass!Edit

Thank you for the kind explanation. May I suggest using the Preview button? —suzukaze (tc) 06:53, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

@suzukaze-c #obvioussarcasmisobvious. That being said, you can count on me not removing the so-called good content recklessly without explanation. About the preview button, last time I checked Module:ja wasn't thoroughly functional, which is why I had to save the page first and edit it again.


{{zh-cat}} is a specialized version of {{C}} fot Chinese that includes sortkeys by radical as well as a few extras for Chinese-specific categories. See this page showing the wikicode generated by the templates. —suzukaze (tc) 19:33, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


If you're interested, I made an experimental Lua module (that can be made into a template) that automates conversion from quốc ngữ to your proposal. An example of it working can be found here. —suzukaze (tc) 04:04, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

That's cool. Hope you can make it work. ばかFumikotalk 04:05, 12 August 2016 (UTC)


Hi Fumiko,

Sorry to dump this on you but could you decide, which translations should be kept, please? Some translations may include a classifier:

cái xú chiên, cái nịt ngực zhào, yếm nịt, nịt vú, cái yếm. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:23, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

First up, drop all cái; it's a classifier, not an integral part of these nouns. Xú chiên seems like a malform; it should be xu(-)chiêng. nịt ngực zhào obviously isn't Vietnamese. Never heard of yếm nịt, there aren't many useful hits on Google. nịt vú is used in a few bilingual dictionaries, but I'm not sure if anyone actually uses it, even though the Vietnamese Wikipedia apparently does. yếm is a totally different thing, should be excluded. ばかFumikotalk 04:48, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. yếm is included in vdict dictionary along with nịt vú. What if I leave xu-chiêng, nịt vú and yếm? I've also seen yếm in a published dictionary with the sense "bra", "brassiere", could you double-check? Could it be an extended meaning or is it simply wrong? Pity if dictionary publishers mislead users. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:38, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
I made it this way:
* Vietnamese: xu-chiêng, xu chiêng (vi), nịt vú (regional), yếm (vi) (yem).
[5] marked "nịt vú" as "địa phương". Is it OK? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:23, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Excessive pruningEdit

I've undone your recent edit at 鴛鴦.

Much of what you removed is accurate and pertinent information: remember, what is "obvious" to one person is news to someone else. Usability is also a consideration, which is why I routinely include the EN WP link for an entry if one exists: for one, not everyone reading the EN WT actually knows English in full, and readers of the 鴛鴦 entry may well not know what a mandarin duck is, and they might want more detail; for two, even if they do know what a mandarin duck is, they might still want to know more about the animal (the WP link) rather than the English term (the WT link). Even for other readers, including the EN WP link in the entry does no harm.

The rest of what you removed is useful detail in the wikicode. Coding best-practices often talk about using identifiers that are meaningful, and anyone who has had to read through an unfamiliar code base has probably cursed past programmers for using identifiers that do not convey meaning. For instance, shortening yomi=irr to y=i harms usability by obfuscating the functionality, and it does extremely little to save space.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:49, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

@Eirikr "what is "obvious" to one person is news to someone else" I wasn't talking about "obviousness", but "obscureness". You listed an English Wikipedia link at 陰陽師 I'd agree that's appropriate enough as it's a rather obscure concept, because unlike "mandarin duck" which consists of "mandarin" and "duck" which are both English, "onmyoji" is not even English. And in what way do you think adding taxonomical names makes it any clearer, or more "obvious" if you will? Have you ever seen any learner's dictionary does that? Not to mention if you already have to prompted the English entry which has only one sense, and the English Wikipedia page, if it's new and not "obvious" to you, what's the point of using some fancy Latin jargon?
"Even for other readers, including the EN WP link in the entry does no harm." Who said anything about it doing any harm? It just doesn't seem appropriate that only Japanese entries get this sort of treatment. Are you telling me readers who look for Japanese entries are more likely to "want more detail" than they do other languages? If it were a universal practice then I'd be totally fine with it. It seems like you're the only person with power (I intend not to use "admin" here in case you don't know) who does this because he thinks his readers are so incapable that they can't even look for more detail by themselves.
"anyone who has had to read through an unfamiliar code base has probably cursed past programmers for using identifiers that do not convey meaning" Now this is just a patronizing assumption. If you really want to edit Wiki pages, you don't need to be thoroughly technically savvy, but at least you still have to consult the instructions on the template page to make sure you really understand what you're doing. And all sorts of shortening and abbreviations are listed there, so there's absolutely no reason that you won't be familiar with them. Not to mention, for the sake of conciseness, it's impossible to make all indentifiers intuitively meaningful. For example, can you even tell what the parameter "number" of {{quote-video}} means right off the bat without reading the instructions? Or what dev, acc, acc_ref, o, a, h, 0, 1, 2, 3, etc. even mean for that matter? What kinda nonsense are you even tryna say?
"it does extremely little to save space" Did I say anything about saving space? No, I didn't. ばかFumikotalk 03:20, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

"how is that an antonym?"Edit

Ask this dude... —suzukaze (tc) 02:39, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Lol, apparently the definition of "antonym" on this wiki is very broad and crude. "Belittle" is the opposite of "fear"? Give me a break. That I'm not scared of something doesn't mean I "belittle" it. Do I "belittle" my mother if I'm not scared of her? ばかFumikotalk 02:44, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
I think it's not really a problem of this wiki but rather of anon. —suzukaze (tc) 02:47, 24 December 2016 (UTC)


Your edit caused an extra apostrophe to appear in all entries- I think you may need to edit {{quote-meta}} instead. DTLHS (talk) 02:40, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Vietnamese translationEdit

Hi 武文子, please translate to Vietnamese, 'Never forget what I did to you.' (I want to know the different registers of formality, as well as gender distinctions) (Since I'm also a linguist, you may use technical terms) – AWESOME meeos * (「欺负」我) 22:48, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

@Awesomemeeos "What I did for you" would be an easy one, but "what I did to you" is rather tricky because it can only be translated to something natural-sounding in a specific context. At least that's what I'd go with, other "translators" will definitely disagree with me as they couldn't give less sh** about natural-sounding-ness. To translate the phrase, I'd need to know exactly what "what" is (whether it's a crime, an atrocity, etc. or not, for example), and then I could even go so far to replace the whole "what I did to you" portion with whatever that "what" is. To put it simply, there's no natural-sounding yet generic equivalent of "what I did to you" in Vietnamese that I can think of.
But if you're okay with awkward "translations", I'd simply go with "Đừng bao giờ quên những gì [insert proper first-person kinship "pronoun" here] đã gây ra cho [insert corresponding second-person kinship "pronoun" here]". That phrase can be broken down as follows
    • đừng bao giờ: imperative "never"
    • những gì: pronominal "what"
    • đã: past marker
    • gây ra: "to cause, to bring about"
    • cho: "preposition" of "gây ra"
    • kinship "pronouns": select a proper pair of pronouns (tôi/tớ/mình - bạn, ta - ngươi/mi, tao - mày) or kinship "pronouns" (anh/chị/em - em/anh/chị, etc.)
The phrase seems rather neutral in tone to me, neither formal or informal. Gender distinctions can only be discerned based on what gender "I" and "you" are, based on which proper kinship terms can be assigned. ばかFumikotalk 06:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@Fumiko Take The situation is like "Never forget (the good things) I did to you" – AWESOME meeos * (「欺负」我) 06:36, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@Awesomemeeos Can you give me an example? I'd say "I did [a good thing] for you" (I bought a present for you, I did homework for you, I took the blame for you, etc.) instead, but then I'm not native like you are so maybe I'm wrong. ばかFumikotalk 06:41, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
@Fumiko Take, — all of the favors and deeds – AWESOME meeos * (「欺负」我) 07:10, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
Well then scrap that one above. Replace "gây ra" with "làm", as "gây ra" implies bad deeds. ばかFumikotalk 07:32, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Fixed Category:ja:Counties of the United States of AmericaEdit

Just for the heads up. I fixed the Category:ja:Counties of the United States of America section by including "of America". --KoreanQuoter (talk) 14:42, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

ngôi saoEdit

I noticed you redirected ngôi sao to sao. Why? I think this is confusing... Even if they are of same meaning, but ngôi sao and sao looks very different and I think they both deserve standalone pages. Dokurrat (talk) 23:10, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

@Dokurrat Ngôi is a classifier (even tho it's strictly used for sao), and it's only required if one needs to use demonstrative markers or numerals (kia, đó, một, hai, etc.). Only sao is the core noun, and classifiers aren't an inherent part of nouns. ばかFumikotalk 06:04, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Magic: The GatheringEdit

I wasn't the one who removed the definitions from the Chinese entries but actually I've been wondering if your approach is what the category is meant for. Category:en:Magic: The Gathering seems to be full of words that originated with the game, not with common words that happen to have a designated meaning in the game. —suzukaze (tc) 08:49, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

What about library, mill, tutor, wrath, sideboard? I'm not trying to cherrypick here, but just pointing out there are still counterexamples. Common words will have specific meanings and uses once they're used in the game, and it's much easier for games to employ actual words than to coin new ones. If my approach is not appropriate, what exactly are the criteria for words to be included in this category? "English terms related to the trading card game Magic: The Gathering" certainly doesn't help. I haven't done any extensive research to confirm that every single TCG actually uses sideboard in the same way MTG does to make it constitute a generic word and merit an entry (Yu-Gi-Oh! uses "side deck" for example), and yet I can see the game-specific sense still found its way into Wiktionary. ばかFumikotalk 09:46, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure why library and wrath are in the category when the {{lb}} has merely "card games". (It seems like others have criticized this in the past; relevant diffs for library and wraith) But my point is that maybe we shouldn't be adding "(Magic: The Gathering) wizard" to 魔法師 since that word already means "wizard" in the first place and there is no meaningful semantic difference between the two. (On the other hand, a Chinese translation of planeswalker would be a uniquely Magic: The Gathering word.) —suzukaze (tc) 10:01, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Yep. A knight in chess is a special thing; the knight in Ghouls 'n Ghosts is not. Equinox 10:06, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
If "uniqueness" is the decisive factor than every term within MTG is unique. Because they are, well, terms. Even if they have all kinds of senses, be it broad or strict, once they enter the game, they all become unique: will mean "blue" and only "blue", and neither "green" or "grue" or whatever it's used as outside of the game. Not to mention 魔法師 is apparently exclusive to Traditional Chinese cards (distributed in Hong Kong and Taiwan) which, in a way, makes it unique. I'm not a proponent of a MTG game terminology on Wiktionary. As a matter of fact, I was actually surprised that there was even a category dedicated to a single card game. I just want to know what is the correct way to do things regarding this. ばかFumikotalk 10:11, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
@Equinox I don't think knight is a fair example, and neither are king, queen or jack. Games like playing cards, chess, shogi, xiangqi, etc. are much more commonplace than MTG; they're not just games for geeks, but sports and recreational forms that even the common folks can enjoy. You must live under a rock not to know what chess or playing cards are in this day and age. In my country, you can buy a set of chess boards and pieces or a deck of cards at a generic kids store or on the street. You don't have to know every single chess term to picture what chess is like ("Well, it's kinda like xiangqi, isn't it?"). But MTG is different: it hasn't reached the level of commonness where everyone can understand that library means "a deck of card" and not an actual library ("What's even a 'collectible card game' anyway?"). And I believe the existence of an MTG category on Wiktionary has already been questionable in the first place. ばかFumikotalk 10:21, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that MTG is just way too young, even younger than Monopoly (there are bootleg versions of Monopoly in this communist country and everyone knows of them!), so it hasn't assimilated well into society or daily life. I'm sure it would be the same if chess were just invented last year. ばかFumikotalk 10:54, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
I think knight works as a fair example. In chess, knight is a symbolic name for the piece that can only move in an L-shape, but I don't think the same can be said for card games where the base concept of a wizard is generally no different from the wizards found in other fiction. —suzukaze (tc) 19:10, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh, symbolicity might work. It's called a knight but it's not a literal knight, just a piece of plastic representing a horse. But again, the game must fully assimilate into the masses. So a workable criterion is symbolicity/iconicity ("it's called a knight, but it's not a knight, or doesn't look like a knight"), and it's assimilated enough to merit an entry in a dictionary. But that would exclude library or sideboard from MTG: they're symbolic, but MTG hasn't assimilated well enough like chess has. And the Category:Magic: The Gathering might not work either. ばかFumikotalk 20:10, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

List of native Vietnamese or Sino-Vietnamese country namesEdit

Hi Fumiko-chan,

Are you aware of any native Vietnamese or Sino-Vietnamese country names list? I'm willing to make entries but I have to rely on Wikipedia and then a search in Google books. If I had a list, it would be much easier. Admittedly not all country name have an equivalent in Vietnamese but a phonetic respelling for those would be great, if it exists. I would need assistance occasionally. Also @Wyang. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:12, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev Even though Vietnamese are Anglophiliac, to my surprise, I found this list of transcriptions on a government website. Mind you though, the transcription rules of this list are still a little arbitrary compared to the textbook rules. Just to reiterate, still I wouldn't recommend creating Vietnamese entries with English or French spellings, because the line between actual/applicable Vietnamese and "Vinglish" isn't always clear-cut, unlike Chinese, Japanese and Korean which make full use of transcriptions to help confirm the nativization of the names. ばかFumikotalk 11:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Great, thanks. I simply create them with:


===Proper noun===
{{vi-proper noun}}


{{C|vi|Countries of CONTINENT}}
Or using {{vi-new|pn|COUNTRY}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi. Is there a tiếng Việt word for Malawi? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev Ma-la-uy will do. ばかFumikotalk 14:21, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, seems attestable. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:26, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev This list from the website of the Communist Party seems more reliable and consistent and it would be of interest to you. ばかFumikotalk 14:29, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks again. Yes, it fills some gaps. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:35, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Taxonomic namesEdit

If it matters, my opinion is that it is a sort of gloss that extends the precision of the definition and is fairly harmless. I do agree with your point that it might be overly technical though. —suzukaze (tc) 04:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

The only situation in which taxonames are remotely useful is when there are several defs in the cited English entries and they're only distinguished with taxonames as glosses. ばかFumikotalk 05:02, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
You probably don't care which specific plant is involved. If you have the correct taxonomic name you can be sure that you have the correct one, and you can find it in reference works. A plant may be known by multiple common names, of which only some are mentioned in reference works, and sometimes even reference works get common names mixed up- especially in non-European contexts. You might be surprised by how many reference works describe daikon as a type of turnip, for instance, and words like plum, date and olive mean completely different things in East Asian contexts. Taxonomic names are designed to be completely unambiguous and precise. Those who don't use taxonomic names just ignore them, but those who do, find them very helpful. Most of our readers will never know nor care about Chinese, Japanese, Korean or Vietnamese translations, but we have them because they're very important for the minority who use them. It's the same way with taxonomic names. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:20, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I am aware that a species may have many common names, because common names are not systematic, but intuitive as they're coined using common lexicon rather than fancy Latin roots. Especially in the case of Japanese, a common name may refer to one specific species well-known to the Japanese, but also used for other similar-looking species. Natural languages are inherently lacking, hence the need of borrowing or coinage. However, on en.Wiktionary.org, all common names are English, which either have English entries which will have technical or non-technical glosses for each definition, or can be referred to on a Wikipedia article for that specific species regardless of how many common names it has. Either way, there's absolutely no need for taxonomic names. The def for 風鳥 for example, only needs a simple gloss as (bird), not a jargonish gloss as Paradisaeid that barely anyone want to bother with. Such names are only needed if the species lack common names in English altogether, or the English glosses are those taxonomic names in the first place. This is the English Wiktionary, and the majority of entries rely on the English entries for reference, so you don't need to look up in other reference works unless there are no English entries that can help you here. ばかFumikotalk 17:48, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I believe it's preferable to add a link to Wikispecies if there are indeed such taxonomically-inclined readers. A mere mention of the taxonomic name is not any more useful than looking it yourself on Wikipedia or any other sources, so why even bother include it in the first place? Japanese common names are surprisingly species-specific as represented on the Japanese Wikipedia, so even adding a simple link to the corresponding Japanese Wikipedia article is plenty more helpful. ばかFumikotalk 17:58, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Re: linking to Japanese Wikipedia, many readers who look up Japanese names can't read Japanese well enough to use a Japanese Wikipedia entry. There are obviously some taxonomic names that are not useful, such as the "paradiseid" you mentioned (in general, species and subspecies are the most useful, followed by [[|genus|genera]] and families. The higher the taxonomic level, the more likely that it's been affected by recent changes in classification, so even families can be problematic). Still, there are plenty of instances where the taxonomic identity of the non-English term doesn't exactly match those covered by the English common names, or where there are no English common names (except sometimes made-up translations of the taxonomic names which require knowing the taxonomic name to be understood). As for a link to Wikispecies, that would include the taxonomic name, so you might as well just do the taxonomic name. If you use the {{taxlink}} template, it formats the taxonomic name correctly, links to either Wikispecies or our entry for the taxonomic name, and brings it to the attention of someone who works with the taxonomic name entries. To give the correct taxonomic level:
* species names are two parts, with genus first and always capitalized, and species second (the species is supposed to be lower case, but older works often capitalize it).
* If there are three parts with no mention of the taxonomic rank, it's a subspecies
* There may be an author abbreviation such as L. for Linnaeus or Thunb. for Thunberg after any of the previous, but you can ignore those
* Some older works refer to families as "natural orders", but if it's for animals and ends with -idae or for plants and ends with -aceae, it's a family. Also, Leguminosae, Compositae, Cruciferae and Guttiferae are alternative names for the Fabaceae, Asteraceae, Brassicaceae and Clusiaceae, respectively.
If you have any problem at all with taxonomic names, let me know which entry, and I'll be happy to fix it. I'm not saying you have to put taxonomic names in every entry, but if someone has gone to the trouble of adding a taxonomic name, please don't remove it just because you don't like them. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
"Still, there are plenty of instances where the taxonomic identity of the non-English term doesn't exactly match those covered by the English common names, or where there are no English common names" That's what I meant, those are the only instances where you need a taxonomic name. Also, if you need taxonomic names to look for references, it's much better to give you links to some established references such as Wikipedia or Wikispecies rather than just mentioning the names. ばかFumikotalk 06:58, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
  • The reason that I include/add {{taxlink}} even when Wikispecies has no entry is so that we can eventually have our own entries in Wiktionary for all taxonomic names that correspond to entries in any language or that are useful in understanding the semantics of terms in Wiktionary. That Wikispecies has no entry is a good reason for us to have one, if possible. I don't add the entries immediately because they take about 30 minutes each, whereas adding the verified taxon and {{taxlink}} takes about 5 minutes. I hope you can sympathize with the effort. DCDuring (talk) 13:09, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

翡翠, 紅蓮Edit

The pronunciation section for 翡翠 uses |y= twice, and the one for 紅蓮 uses |acc= twice. They seem to be added by you; could you fix it? —suzukaze (tc) 18:26, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Removing bold formatting from translations of quotes.Edit

Hello, could you explain your rationale for edits like these? —suzukaze (tc) 03:40, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

I feel like bolding English translations isn't workable if I want to continue my non-literal approach. Besides, I only remove mine. ばかFumikotalk 03:44, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
I see. I know that sometimes translations aren't direct equivalents but sometimes the correspondence is fairly plain and I think that it is useful to users, partially as a way of locating a word and partially because users may be expecting to see bold formatting (consistency with other quotes throughout the dictionary). I won't bother you further about it though. —suzukaze (tc) 03:53, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
Speaking of your non-literal translations, the ones I've seen so far seem very good, even for complicated translations, but I found one which I think needs some work. Under 彼女, you have "死ぬ前に彼女欲しかったなあ…………" translated as, "I wish I had a girlfriend before I die." To be grammatically correct, it should be "I wish to have a girlfriend before I die" or "I want to have a girlfriend before I die" or more simply, "I want a girlfriend before I die." Now, my Japanese grammar is not good, so I'm not sure why the Japanese is in past tense. Can you explain this to me? Maybe it makes sense in Japanese, but it doesn't in English unless it was a dead person speaking and then die would also have to be in past tense ("I wish I had a girlfriend before I died") 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:42, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
I don't speak Japanese. All I've been relying on is already available translations, translating tools, deductions and common sense, hopefully making decent "translations" in the process. You might wanna ask fluent speakers instead (Category:User Jpan). ばかFumikotalk 05:55, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
(pinging @Eirikr, who might be interested in this conversation —suzukaze (tc) 00:29, 14 December 2017 (UTC))


I was wondering if you are aware of this template, since you seem to be using {{ruby}} + {{lang}} a lot. —suzukaze (tc) 04:03, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

I haven't tried it yet, but if it works just like {{ja-r}} or {{ja-usex}}, then it won't work in a lot of cases I need it to (ruby on Roman characters, non-kana ruby, etc.). So far only {{ruby}} is guaranteed to allow any type of ruby on any type of text. ばかFumikotalk 07:38, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
(Ruby on Roman characters is now possible. —suzukaze (tc) 08:47, 1 September 2017 (UTC))


FYI 時間 is actually attested in classical Chinese, albeit not in the modern sense of "time". Therefore, it cannot be a complete borrowing from Japanese. Again, we should always check for attestation before assuming borrowing from Japanese. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Use available templates properly like, for example, this, and I won't bother you anymore. ばかFumikotalk 08:56, 1 September 2017 (UTC)


Please accept my apology for being too hasty. —suzukaze (tc) 05:18, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

diff (骨粗鬆症)Edit

If you don't mind me asking, could you explain why you added this? Is this supposed to represent しょーしょー? Is it really ever pronounced this way? —suzukaze (tc) 05:09, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

It is, according to {{R:Shinmeikai5}} and {{R:NHK Hatsuon}}. In fact, I've stumbled on some other long terms (phrases) that simultaneously have two accent patterns for two of their portions. I just don't know how to do it properly. In this case, the patterns are marked with two corner symbols in NHK and as [1]-[0] in SMK5. ばかFumikotalk 06:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
I see. It seems that currently you can't do it properly using {{ja-pron}}, and this issue has been mentioned before (Module_talk:ja-pron#Co-occurring_pitch_accents)... I would try to remedy things but I don't really have the time recently. @Wyang, Erutuon? —suzukaze (tc) 18:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)


Hi, I noticed that you are using {{bor}} without the notext=1 parameter. I want to notify you that the way this template works will change very shortly, following Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/November#Template:bor: Replace notext=1 with withtext=1. The sense of the parameters will be switched: whereas before you needed a parameter to suppress display of the text, in the new situation you'll need a parameter to include the text. The withtext=1 parameter is only temporary, to facilitate the transition to the new format. You can use it for now if you really want, but the goal is to get rid of it. —Rua (mew) 12:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)


If I may, I would like to request that you be a bit more scrupulous, especially with verbs: diff, diff, diff, diff. —suzukaze (tc) 21:09, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

My sources don't really specify which parts of those words are roots. Maybe I'll just leave them as they are next time? ばかFumikotalk 07:50, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Leaving them alone is fine (Template:ja-readings/documentation#Format).
What sources are you using? Kanjipedia, indicates the root using bold formatting. If that fails, I look up the kun reading to check its part of speech and okurigana for that reading. —suzukaze (tc) 07:56, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

diff, diff, quotation lengthEdit

Please cut down on the length of your quotations. Wiktionary is a dictionary, not a manga dialogue database. —suzukaze (tc) 18:22, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Category:Pages with ISBN errorsEdit

These seem to be largely yours. —suzukaze (tc) 19:24, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Maybe I've been misreading them. What's the valid format used here then? ばかFumikotalk 19:28, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I checked one of them against Worldcat, and it seems to be a transcription error. I didn't check others yet. —suzukaze (tc) 04:05, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Having CFI issuesEdit

To be honest, the only two (likely) reliable sources are Daijisen Plus and EDICT; maybe interpreted the CFI part way differently? Need your opinion here. Remember, still a bit new here; sometimes exploring around for any good ideas.

Also, what of 不思議, 蜥蜴, 銭亀, and 炎帝? Same links for the derived terms in DJS+. --POKéTalker (talk) 10:54, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm not really an expert here so don't quote me, but per my experience, you're gonna need at least three quotations from three different non-Pokemon-related contexts (non-game, non-manga, non-anime, etc., for example, like how John Oliver made a joke about Pikachu's beach wedding) to prove its merit for inclusion. ばかFumikotalk 11:00, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
This is the Nihongo case, so the requirements may likely be different. Since you're not really sure, will put an RFV on ゼニガメ (Zenigame), one of my other edits. Really on unknown territory right now. Domo, --POKéTalker (talk) 03:38, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
The requirements are not different. Japanese is a well documented language and the normal three citations are needed. DTLHS (talk) 03:50, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

nước mắtEdit

Chào. Would you still like to list this in WT:RFD? Btw it is in Từ điển tiếng Việt (Viện Ngôn ngữ học, “nước do tuyến ở mắt tiết ra khi khóc hay khi mắt bị kích thích mạnh”), Đại Từ Điển Tiếng Việt (Nguyễn Như Ý), etc. Wyang (talk) 13:39, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

They may have different criteria for inclusion from Wiktionary. nước mắt appears to be an SOP because it is understood as "liquid from the eyes". That given dictionary def you cited is just a little more technical, and you can get technical with anything. Compare nước mũi (literally liquid from the nose) or nước đái (literally liquid that one pees out). For that matter, many Chinese, Japanese and Korean entries also feel like they are SOPs, too. ばかFumikotalk 17:02, 14 December 2017 (UTC)


Did you just fuck up the "quote-book" template? See e.g. portmanteau. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I reverted your edit, because it made the looks of quoted book references quite weird. You can prevent this sort of accidents by using "Sandbox", which is provided at the bottom of a template editing page. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:08, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Oh sorry. Didn't know about that. ばかFumikotalk 15:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


I'm not going to stop you, but I personally think that ja-new doesn't have to be able to do everything. —suzukaze (tc) 03:29, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

It's just for my own convenience if you don't mind, as long as it does no harm. ばかFumikotalk 03:34, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
I don't really mind. Just make sure to update the documentation too. —suzukaze (tc) 04:59, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
Yes, please update the documentation for any changes you make. Like you, I find ja-new useful and will be glad if you can extend it's functionality in any useful ways. 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
(I'm serious about the documentation. Please update it, so people are aware of any new or changed capabilities. —Suzukaze-c 03:58, 4 May 2018 (UTC))

無花果 EtymologyEdit

Please note that jukujikun is a type of ateji. Ateji is a broad term and you are using it in its restrictively narrow sense. All jukujikun can be classified "ateji", but not all ateji can be called "jukujikun". That being said, I have no complaints about how you changed it, I just don't agree with your comment about it not being both. 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

∅ in VietnameseEdit

Thank you for your contribution. Do you have a source for the Vietnamese ∅? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

No. This is a handwritten abbreviation, just like Ng̃ (which is only found on Wiktionary apparently), so I don't think you'll ever find a digital source for it because it's more difficult to type it than to physically write it. ばかFumikotalk 01:08, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
You always need durable citations on Wiktionary. If you don’t have one it must be RFVed. Do you know any native Vietnamese speaker who can help us? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:16, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
Then RFV it and delete it if necessary. I've RFVed Ng̃ too. ばかFumikotalk 04:00, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

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Hi. The "historical readings" refer to 歴史的仮名遣い. Did you mean for -む readings to be "archaic readings"? (See Template:ja-readings#Format.) —Suzukaze-c 20:12, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c, fixed; suggesting separate ja-readings for "Three Stars, group of three (or to group), variant kanji for 'three'" for simplicity. ~ POKéTalker (TC) 00:27, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

「へ」 in テモテへ ??Edit

Fumiko Take, you have created article named テモテへ... Why is 「」 in 「テモテへ」 hiragana? And, Such name is not actually used. 「へ」is not parts of Kana translit name of "Timothy". About 「テモテへ」, it means "to Timothy".

We should rename article name from テモテへ "temotehe" to テモテ "temote". I am not good at English, so I can not discuss it in detail. --3代目窓屋 (talk) 04:42, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Now that I checked again, I mistook it from テモテへの手紙二. It's just Temote. ばかFumikotalk 05:53, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Edit to "Trump"Edit

  Please refrain from making test edits in Wiktionary articles, such as those you made to Trump, even if your ultimate intention is to fix them. Such edits appear to be vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment again, please use the sandbox. Thanks. EhSayer (talk) 04:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

@EhSayer: Even if the edit was politically charged, I personally don't think it was vandalism. Besides, Trump deserves this type of treatment - it's the way he treats everybody around him. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:05, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: The edit may not have been vandalism, but it was still inappropriate. Besides, quotations are unnecessary on pages regarding names, so it still should've been reverted. I used to edit Wikipedia, so when I saw the quote, I immediately thought of the WP:NPOV policy. EhSayer (talk) 16:10, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: I just found out that there is an NPOV policy on Wiktionary as well, so the edit definitely does not belong here. On Wikipedia, there is a much more structured system of warning templates (eg. there are seperate templates for "NPOV", "disruptive editing", "vandalism", etc.) with multiple levels of severity. If this existed on Wiktionary, I would have used a different template, but the one I used was the best available. EhSayer (talk) 04:59, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Whatever, I'm not worried about NPOV when talking about world morons. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:23, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: You seem to be implying that I support Donald Trump, while I DEFINITELY do not. I just believe that Wiktionary policy should be adhered to. EhSayer (talk) 05:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev It has nothing to do with Trump and everything to do with the dictionary: this isn't the place for expressing political viewpoints, no matter how much you or I might agree with them. I haven't seen the edit in question, so I'm just going by what you're saying- but even suggesting a different standard based on anyone's political opinion is a very bad idea. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:04, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

On reduplicativesEdit

We should have a talk on the topic of reduplication and reduplicatives in Vietnamese, and how to use the parameter rdp, as our opinions differ significantly. @Wyang, @Mxn also. PhanAnh123 (talk) 14:19, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

The best way is probably to slit it into two parameters, one for diminutive and one for expressive. What do you think?14:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Come on now, don't tell me you start attacking me. Be calm and polite on Wiktionary.14:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Would you please know your shortcomings and do something about it? I'm saying that you've been doing this AN AWFUL LOT. Also, please sign properly. ばかFumikotalk 15:01, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Sorry for had not sign properly, I didn't say that words like hăng hái are not reduplicatives (they are). But I have proposed to you about the idea of slitting parameter and make a talk, but have not answered to either of the proposes yet. Be cooperative, I will learn my mistakes and you will be satisfied. OK?I have nothing against you.PhanAnh123 (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
@PhanAnh123 I don't think the large number of initial- or final-discordant từ láy should be listed on the headword line; in some cases the monosyllabic adjectival nucleus can derive up to 10 (or more) such reduplicative forms, including dialectal or archaic/obsolete forms, and the headword line is way too limited for that. If necessary, we can create a {{vi-der-tu lay}} to handle these derivatives separately in Derived terms.
The main complication with từ láy is that there is not a reliable resource to check against, to know whether a word is definitively từ láy ― in many cases we can infer whether it is likely to be based on other similar-shaped adjectives and/or whether the augmented syllable has meaning on its own, but in other cases it can be difficult. Wyang (talk) 23:41, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Good point. There are cases such as độc đoán which could be confusing just from their appearance, and it doesn't help that PhanAnh keeps adding dubious things like *đồng độc, especially with grade school spelling errors that are absolutely unacceptable for someone dabbling in lexicography. ばかFumikotalk 06:19, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Fumiko-san, please try to keep your criticisms courteous. @PhanAnh123 too: I've created {{vi-der}} to house Derived terms on Vietnamese entries, to allow consistency and a bit more flexibility than the default {{der3}}. It allows specification of the gloss (term:gloss), as well as a derived term as từ láy (:tl). I'm running a bot to convert existing {{der3|lang=vi}} to {{vi-der}}. The format of the template is up for discussion- it may be good to separate reduplicatives and non-reduplicatives in the display, but since từ láy is not a simple attribute to ascertain in many cases, I've kept the format similar to {{der3}} for now. Wyang (talk) 00:18, 12 July 2018 (UTC)


Hello. Your recent edit to this page looks like it introduced a Lua error. Could you please have a look? —Internoob 22:56, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Fumiko, isn’t the word spelled and pronounced phonetically? Why did you remove the default pronunciation? What was the purpose of respelling with a “z”? “d” is pronounced /z/, isn’t it? —Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
It's supposed to be /z/. Certain foreign words tend to be pronounced consistently even in the South. If you take into account most news network's standards, regional variations such as /z/~/j/ or /n/~/ŋ/ are ignored in favor of the "standard" northern pronunciations. Practice may varies, though. ばかFumikotalk 06:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
I see, thanks. It’s pronounced /z/ in all varieties. @Wyang: could you please add “z” initial in respellings to be pronounced /z/ in all varieties? —Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:58, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev Already added. Using "z" in the input should work now. Wyang (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2018 (UTC)


Could you provide the source of the Usage notes section on this page? Especially the part when speaking to a fairly younger person. Thanks. Piomar (talk) 22:32, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

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